How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

Please see the healer forums for this conversation, which we've had about eighty times now. TLDR: Give WHM seraph strike,

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What? o.O

Out of all the discussions, "Seraph Strike" is probably the least useful thing possible. Not to mention a ton of people would hate it. It's the one ability they have in PvP that I really hate, for example. And in practice, it's just "another Presence of Mind".

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Originally Posted by Connor

Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if the reason devs are so hesitant to give new dps abilities to healers is because everyone is so militant about it…

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Hm...could be true, honestly.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I agree that that's what the game is. But at least according to the man at the top, it's not what the game is supposed to be. Yoshi-P has gone on the record numerous times (in 2017 and 2021) saying that in group content, there is no expectation that Healers do damage and that for balancing purposes their DPS is assumed to be zero. And since those times, he has never said anything to the contrary. So if that's his stated design goal, and the highest difficulty content in the game leaves enough time to spam DPS spells that healers get sick of it, then I would say that there are some tuning issues there where the design goals aren't quite being realized.

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This. This post should have ended the discussion. It's one of the posts here that isn't disconnected from reality.

The stated design goal is at odds with the current encounter design for healing and healer kits.

And I'll say again, no matter how many times people say "It always was this way" it WASN'T always this way. It wasn't in ARR. It became that in HW (which is the first time Yoshi P on record said they balanced with 0 healer DPS in mind), and the Dev response? Remove Cleric as a stance and reduce DoTs/damage buttons (going into SB for WHM and AST, and honestly SCH, they just got some of theirs back), indicating that was clearly NOT the design goal.

And as we've seen nothing since to say otherwise, the trend continued with the ShB DPS kit gutting, and the Devs doubled down on that in EW and have made no indications of changing, the logical conclusion is they DON'T want healer gameplay to be all about damage dealing. While people can argue that is what it is/has become, it's clearly not the design goal/intent. Meaning if anything is to change, it would be to change things so that they better match that design intent.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

If I was made queen I'd make it so that overhealing provided a party dps buff. Synergizes with party mitigation, makes mana and resource management more engaging, doesn't alienate "pure"healer players whilst providing another avenue for affecting party dps.

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That's...kind of an interesting idea. Though I suspect hardcore types would oppose it since it would "remove fail states/encourage bad play" or some such.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

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This still reads like bait.

Instead of just saying "You're right, I overstated my position", you're trying too attack me for NOT attacking someone else.

As for "veteran healers" - again, this includes people that don't want more damage. It's not a monolithic group to begin with, and many are talking about specific content or engaging with content with a specific level of experience, neither of which is applicable more broadly. In either case, it's used as an appeal to authority fallacy to bolster an argument.

The better way to say it is as I did - some people want more damage buttons and some do not - because both groups have "veteran healers" and non-veteran healers among them and advocating for them.

Anyway, it's an aside.

They had a problem with something OP said. You had a problem with something they said. I had a problem with something you said. It's the circle of life. :)

In any case, it's not productive discussion, so I'm moving on from it. I'm just asking you to not overstate your case or try to artificially inflate it, no more and no less.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I agree that that's what the game is. But at least according to the man at the top, it's not what the game is supposed to be. Yoshi-P has gone on the record numerous times (in 2017 and 2021) saying that in group content, there is no expectation that Healers do damage and that for balancing purposes their DPS is assumed to be zero. And since those times, he has never said anything to the contrary. So if that's his stated design goal, and the highest difficulty content in the game leaves enough time to spam DPS spells that healers get sick of it, then I would say that there are some tuning issues there where the design goals aren't quite being realized.

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First of all is his statement not reflected in ingame balance at all and secondly this would lead to standing around not having your gcd rolling for 75% of the fight at minimum.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I agree that that's what the game is. But at least according to the man at the top, it's not what the game is supposed to be. Yoshi-P has gone on the record numerous times (in 2017 and 2021) saying that in group content, there is no expectation that Healers do damage and that for balancing purposes their DPS is assumed to be zero. And since those times, he has never said anything to the contrary. So if that's his stated design goal, and the highest difficulty content in the game leaves enough time to spam DPS spells that healers get sick of it, then I would say that there are some tuning issues there where the design goals aren't quite being realized.

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Soo... how long do you think it'll take for them to get that 'tuning' right when if we look across the entire span of game's history, they've only been going further and further from that 'design goals'? lol

A healer rotation doesn't necessarily need to turn them into a DPS class in order to be fun. It's really not complicated imo. Fun is not unilaterally rooted in how much damage you are dealing-- it's also just about how the class feels to play. So how is a point about the devs claiming they don't balance healer dps relevant? Players continuously post ideas on how to make healers more interesting that have little or nothing to do with turning them into a DPS class.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

First of all is his statement not reflected in ingame balance at all and secondly this would lead to standing around not having your gcd rolling for 75% of the fight at minimum.

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As to your first point, that's literally what my post that you're replying to said.

For your second point, I feel like you have to be misunderstanding what's being said here; if you genuinely think that Ultimates requiring a threshold of healing at which healers don't have time to DPS would lead to not having the GCD rolling for 75% of the fight, you'll have to explain that one to me.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

That's...kind of an interesting idea. Though I suspect hardcore types would oppose it since it would "remove fail states/encourage bad play" or some such.

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I figured as long as whatever dmg buff the overheal provides was neutral/even to the damage they would output personally it would minimize the impact on balancing. It would also kind of naturally split each healers kit into tools for maintaining the overheal and tools for recovering from big damage, deaths or screwups without needing to actually adjust any of the tools they already have [much, probably. Too granular for me and obviously potencies for everything would have to get shifted about] This would also be an extra big dickswing challenge for all the raiders that do no healer runs of hard content. Do it with no dps buffs you cowards [in a nice way] XD

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

As to your first point, that's literally what my post that you're replying to said.

For your second point, I feel like you have to be misunderstanding what's being said here; if you genuinely think that Ultimates requiring a threshold of healing at which healers don't have time to DPS would lead to not having the GCD rolling for 75% of the fight, you'll have to explain that one to me.

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Do you have any idea how much incoming damage you're asking for and how loathed it would make healers?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

What? o.O

Out of all the discussions, "Seraph Strike" is probably the least useful thing possible. Not to mention a ton of people would hate it. It's the one ability they have in PvP that I really hate, for example.

The stated design goal is at odds with the current encounter design for healing and healer kits.

And I'll say again, no matter how many times people say "It always was this way" it WASN'T always this way. It wasn't in ARR. It became that in HW (which is the first time Yoshi P on record said they balanced with 0 healer DPS in mind), and the Dev response? Remove Cleric as a stance and reduce DoTs/damage buttons (going into SB for WHM and AST, and honestly SCH, they just got some of theirs back), indicating that was clearly NOT the design goal.

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It was always this way, it's just the devs are out of touch with how the job is played. Just because the dev disagrees, doesn't mean it wasn't. I mean their answer to a person that became a good healer was to replace them...Also I think it's unfair to bring pre-heavensward as an example against that statement because for one we didn't even have a roster of jobs doing the same thing, for two jobs were still being introduced for certain classes (we didn't even get summoner and scholar until 2.0), and for three it was the rebuild phase of the game I would argue (I would compare it to an early access game in those stages, having the bones but not being the end all). Heavensward being the first major expansion would/should have indicated the product being more finalized (which is why the dps skills being removed later on would be highly unfavorable instead of just redesigned).

Personally like presence of mind and although not a fan of Seraph Strike as well it would still be "something". Think we just need more dps spells that break the monotony of glare spam under PoM preferably with longer cast times so spellspeed actually does something.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Soo... how long do you think it'll take for them to get that 'tuning' right when if we look across the entire span of game's history, they've only been going further and further from that 'design goals'? lol

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I honestly don't see the point of asking me this. The thread is titled "How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?". Given that context, policing the likelihood of the devs implementing every given solution seems superfluous.

WHM:
Give WHM seraph strike, Increases DMG but lowers healing for 15 seconds
Stock up on Blood Lilies

SCH:
more Dot focus, Spreading them, increasing their potency, have eating your faerie give you access to a new ability, where you gap close and increase the party's DMG around you in a 15 Yalm radius
Spells interact with DoTS

AST:
Give it more time manipulation abilities that increase DoT timer, or give them a wildfire like ability

SGE:
Have an ability to convert addersgall to addersting. Have every 3 addersgall/sting add to a gauge that unleashes an DMG ability.
Have Eurkrasia changes more spells, (Make phlema a ST heavier nuke, and such)