Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Saying it fits thematically because one summoner in the series could use it is such a stretch.

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If people like to use the "It's not a FF summoner" argument when it benefits them, they also need to be ready to get the same argument when it works against them.

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Originally Posted by rewd

If people like to use the "It's not a FF summoner" argument when it benefits them, they also need to be ready to get the same argument when it works against them.

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You have argued "Summoner = poison mage because Rydia!" multiple times across several threads. Exceptions do not a rule make. The time has come to accept this and move on.

No seriously, list of main line game summoner characters: Rydia, Garnet, Eiko, Yuna, did I miss someone? What are the options for a DPS? I guess they could make FF14 summoner dual wield pistols, that'd be a nice nod.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

No seriously, list of main line game summoner characters: Rydia, Garnet, Eiko, Yuna, did I miss someone? What are the options for a DPS? I guess they could make FF14 summoner dual wield pistols, that'd be a nice nod.

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FF3 and FF5 where it's mainly inspired from? FF Tactics or FF11, too. It's really obvious where the inspiration comes from if you compare the outfits itself.
Plus ALL of those characters are all-rounders, if not more damage-centric. Rydia is from a game where there's already an established White Mage who is Rosa. Same with Garnet who's with Eiko who is technically the White Mage of the game but can both summon. Yuna is established to be an offensive character in Dissidia games. etc.

Anyway this Bio/Miasma argument is really silly because DoTs stopped being the main focus of SMN's kit in Stormblood, more so in Shadowbringers. The rest has been about the summons themselves.
It's honestly hilarious how much these two spells bothered so many people over the years. It's not that serious.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You have argued "Summoner = poison mage because Rydia!" multiple times across several threads. Exceptions do not a rule make. The time has come to accept this and move on.

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Oh I have an idea. Why don't we add Bio back in as a spell and then have it get replaced with Summon Ifrit at level 30. That would make it even more faithful to Rydia! Maybe that would make him happy.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You have argued "Summoner = poison mage because Rydia!" multiple times across several threads. Exceptions do not a rule make. The time has come to accept this and move on.

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The thing I've always argued is that the "FF Summoner" argument many people like to use is not a real argument because there is no "FF Summoner". Characters like Rydia could use black magic (as well as some basic white magic spells, as her younger self), while other iconic summoners such as Garnet and Yuna were proficient in white magic instead. Not to mention summons themselves can work in different ways: Rydia's summons are basically just fancy animations, while Yuna's resemble more a pet-style gameplay as you can directly control summons for a set period.

You might need a refresher, although you should be aware of it as you directly replied to it...

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Originally Posted by rewd

The game is called Final Fantasy XIV, not Final Fantasy The Norm. They can and should take some freedom when it comes to job design (as they already did, many times, with plenty of jobs).

A norm, when it comes to Summoner, doesn't exist. Summoners work in different ways in different games. The only thing they have in common is - not suprisingly - that they summon things.

People always liked to use FFXI as an argument as to why XIV's SMN is 'wrong' because it was missing XI's big summons. I'm sure the same people aren't using XI as an argument as to why Carbuncle needs to attack again, although that's what it does in XI too. Weird, uh.

Not to mention that new SMN is far from the 'norm' too, unless we want to act like a summoner becoming a geomancer is how it has always worked in Final Fantasy.

"Classic FF summoner", "norm" and all that are arguments that should have died a long time ago.

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When I mention Rydia, it's because I'm reiterating the fact that summoners in FF don't follow one single, strict paradigm. Summoners are essentially mages that can hold their own even when they are not summoning: Rydia is a great black mage (and damage over time spells are part of her arsenal), while Yuna, Garnet and Eiko specialize in white magic.

You might need a second refresher:

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Originally Posted by rewd

Your comment is overall wrong.

Summoners don't feel like elementalist, first of all because summons are something you don't spam (unlike new SMN). Secondly, because summoners have their own capabilities outside of summons. Yuna and Garnet are specialized in white magic for example, Rydia (the first "true" FF summoner) in black magic instead, and as such she could use damage over time spells.

Lastly, DPS jobs are objectively getting easier.

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I shouldn't have bothered with this because people luckily realized that you are not worth their time, but I figured I'd let them know that you are apparently so desperate that you started spreading lies now.

We get it. You like poison magic. Ask nicely and you'll probably get Necromancer in 7.0. Direct your energy into the proper discussion channels regarding future new jobs rather than endlessly fantasizing about a "Summoner" that should have never been and accept that what is here is here to stay. Any improvements and additions will and consistent with the new gameplay flow and theme. If you do not want to play as that, then please select one of the remaining 18 other jobs available to try.

Except that FF14 summoner is an exception even among the exceptions. In most games throughout the series, Summoner is either something everyone can do or it is some small, tribal thing sequestered away from the world or limited in some manner. Rydia and those of Mist? Small village and hidden away. The next time that summoner becomes something that isn't just granted by a job Crystal to the party (Ala 3, where there were two different summoner classes, and 5), in the mainline series is 9 where it again comes from a small sect of the planet's population. Even within 9, the two summoners you have specialize in two different kinds of white magic, vs Rydia's black, and do not have access to all the same spells or summons. And that's not counting Golbez/Theodore who is also a summoner in 4 and is noteworthy for surviving the death of his where Rydia's mother didn't. Then we have 10 where it is a religious training process where only a those select go through. This is also another difference as Garnet survives the loss of all of hers where, had she been from 4, she would have expected been killed from it. 14 Summoners? They come from arguably the most powerful and militarily focused Empire on this planet with technology far beyond what any other previous game's Summoner group has known. In addition, 14's Summons (aka Primals) actively affect and harm the environment from their very existence whereas in every other game they are just... there. Like, in 9, literally a castle just asleep that people live, train, and rule from. Or 6, where they, as Espers, sit around in a village in the own world and can actively fall in love with humans. So to say that 14's summoner should feel like all the others is just trying to force consistency upon a class that hasn't had much in the way of consistency across over 15 games outside of calling for something to do a thing.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You have argued "Summoner = poison mage because Rydia!" multiple times across several threads. Exceptions do not a rule make. The time has come to accept this and move on.

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The only one who keeps bringing up Poison Mage is you as a strawman defense for this horrible horrible job design. When people say they enjoyed pre 6.0 SMN you pounce on the whole DoTs like it was the only aspect of the job. I got bad bad news for you, it had multiple aspects to manage, which is most likely why they have a book as a weapon when "Traditionally FF Summoners didn't equip books, blah blah blah." The current design is akin to an intern's work with little thought to the jobs history or it's mechanics. It was a rush job and feels like a rush job; funny since 2.0 was a real rush job and that version of SMN had much more depth.

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

In addition, 14's Summons (aka Primals) actively affect and harm the environment from their very existence whereas in every other game they are just... there. Like, in 9, literally a castle just asleep that people live, train, and rule from. Or 6, where they, as Espers, sit around in a village in the own world and can actively fall in love with humans. So to say that 14's summoner should feel like all the others is just trying to force consistency upon a class that hasn't had much in the way of consistency across over 15 games outside of calling for something to do a thing.

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You are correct in that the primals of FFXIV actively harm and drain the land of energy. And I would much rather be doing that using their signature abilities and trance direct damage spells than babysitting a stack of dots. Or worse, that era when "Ruination" was another thing to babysit. Also, Alexander is summoned *around* Castle Alexandria, it is not the castle itself.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

The only one who keeps bringing up Poison Mage is you as a strawman defense for this horrible horrible job design. When people say they enjoyed pre 6.0 SMN you pounce on the whole DoTs like it was the only aspect of the job. I got bad bad news for you, it had multiple aspects to manage, which is most likely why they have a book as a weapon when "Traditionally FF Summoners didn't equip books, blah blah blah." The current design is akin to an intern's work with little thought to the jobs history or it's mechanics. It was a rush job and feels like a rush job; funny since 2.0 was a real rush job and that version of SMN had much more depth.

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Cool story, the majority of players in game and outside your bubble disagree with your assessment of the present state of affairs. The dots were the most out of place part of Summoner's kit and made it feel like a Warlock whose poisons were more prominent than traditional Summon magic. No one cares that Summoner's weapon is a book. The current design is the result of the devs admitting there was no way forward with old Summoner. They took your ideas and ran with them for 8 years. That's a fantastic run by the way, but it's over now. It will get more abilities over time. If you do not want to wait, then you have the right to go play another job. Which is exactly what I ended up doing after dropping 5.0 Summoner in the trash after having levelled it as my first 80.