Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

Of course you realise it's threads like these that makes things worse rather than better right? Newer people do read these things to get a feel for matters then rather than pipe up they stay quiet and continue to make the same mistakes because nobody wants to be "that player" and admit they're the new person to the run and don't quite got the mechanics thus the inevitable happens wipe wipe wipe win by skin of the teeth. They didn't learn anything but still wind up at endgame not knowing anything and the cycle perpetuates.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

That is your problem if you don't believe fortunately that's how things have rolled so far to me and sorry if you do not lived the same experiences as we did.

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The funny thing is that its not only me who experienced the opposit of your story but also everyone i know in this game. So i would say you are either the luckiest person that ever logged into the game or you are telling a nice little fairytale, pick what you prefer.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

I've been saying for years that this community has a terrible problem with mollycoddling subpar players instead of just being real with them.
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Don't be a dick with your delivery, but do be blunt. ...They can then shape up so the rest of the group can stop failing or barring that, if they catch an attitude you can also show them how easy it is to catch a free ride on the Requeue Train where they can wait for another group that might not care about success.

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Define 'subpar players' in terms that don't involve a parser or references to main story content.

When a player gets frustrated and decides it's time to stop 'mollycoddling', "Don't be a dick with your delivery" gets thrown out the window of an airplane flying at 35,000 feet above a volcano.

If you're only complaining in reference to optional content -- well that's fine. It's optional.

And you should be sure to specify that's what you mean.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

MoP ? Past WotLK WoW's system became disgustingly more and more broken. They attempted to implement challenges after the fact that they had dumbed down mechanics along with the fact that add-ons are rampant in WoW. They found that they had to dumb everything back down to the lowest performing player. WoW's downfall of player mechanics and performance is a result of such a system that allows players to be told what to do rather than thinking for themselves.

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But at least they attempted to "Teach" people, albeit in a flawed way, by having just the test at the end without any of the actual "Teaching"

With the failure to actually provide any teaching, they just continued down the path of idiot-proofing the game which happens when you leave players to have to research literally everything about the game and thus have to start balancing around people that have literally no clue.

Which is the way they seem to be going with XIV, never allowing a dungeon to be difficult in the slightest. Make everything about pulling wall to wall and rubbing your face across your keyboard for max DPS.

As far as addons go... Some of them they actually implemented into the core game, because it is stupid to rely on 3rd party programs for your game to be playable.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

Teaching players an intermediate level of play alludes to a level of the game's handholding rather than the player's self learning. Teaching basic levels of play is ok and that is what the healer/dps/tanks course (which also rewards gear) does. You learn much more when you actually understand why you are using the abilities you are using rather than a game telling you 'use this ability' now. This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies. These 'playgrounds' exist for a person to test their abilities and receive feedback from the group they are with.

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Unless you actually TEACH and not just TELL.

Teaching is not just telling people things. If it were, we wouldn't have teachers in schools, we'd just get all students to watch a video telling them all the information they need.

Teaching is part telling and part getting people to understand by themselves.

So in this instance, you would tell people the basics - Stuff like "You can use WASD to move" and "You can use "Combo" skills in succession to deal more damage" and "Don't stand in the glowing orange areas or you take damage" as well as maybe a few more nuanced mechanics, like the different types of arrows mechanics use for Stacking/Spreading.

While for more advanced stuff, you'd try and get people to understand for themselves, telling them some information, but letting them experiment and experience it first hand.

So things like a BLM would be told about trying to use Fire IV during Astral Fire and then using Blizzard III to go into Umbral Ice before it times out and they lose Enochian. Where the player might do this and then think to use Fire I to extend Astral Fire's duration to push out another 3 Fire IV's - Thus now having being taught their standard rotation without being directly told it, at least not entirely.

Also "This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies."

None of those actually give any relevant feedback on performance.

Dungeons are completable with just 2 roles being competent, as there are no enrage timers nor and in-game notification of your performance (Other than your party members telling you that you suck and/or kicking you)

Same for Trials, made even worse by the fact that there's an over abundance of players in the duty, because they're often balanced so that they can be completed by 1 tank, 1 healer and a few DPS rather than being tuned to need all 8 people to be competent.

Then the deep dungeons... Are also face-roll simple and don't demand anything from you. Outside of the higher levels that you need to specifically make a static to actually access.

None of these things, ask for competence, give any feedback on competence or even guide you towards competence.

People who will naturally want to improve can use them as places to practice, but they won't in of themselves actually help improve anyone.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I encounter people like this daily. I play a mix of tank and healer, as you are probably aware, healers have a better overview of the entire team. It's easier to see who is messing up, who is dead weight.

There is a massive difference between casual and dead weight. No one is expecting every player to be the 1% ultimate god that can clear the game by playing with one foot and a missing eye on a 800x600 resolution while being 500 meters away from the screen. However it is pretty standard to be level 70 and understand YOUR own class that YOU have been playing to get to max level. The fact that people like you genuinely believe that dead weight players who know nothing and refuse to learn is perfectly acceptable is just mind boggling. You say people who don't know basics are rare, no, they really aren't, they are extremely common. I don't hold any player to any insanely high standards, all I expect from you as a level 70 player is to understand your class and the basics of the game.

According to some, that is too much to ask for.

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For all you say, I rarely encounter someone who is so bad they wipe the raid consistently by themselves. It's your anecdote VS mine though. But when I DO encounter someone like that? I have never, emphasis on the never, met someone who refused outright to at least get to the level of "I'm not destroying the raid" with some patience and tactful suggestions. It's not a matter of acceptable, it's understanding they aren't beholden to my personal standards and I have every opportunity to adjust my own experience without intruding upon theirs.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

You are not who gets to decide what's "acceptable" either. Why do YOU need to waste my time into the dungeon and be dead weight? Why do YOU get to wipe the raid repeteadly and no one says anything because of fear of ban? Here's a bit of news that you don't seem to be familiar with, I encounter a lot of players that get mad at people who cause wipes, they get frustrated, and they don't say ANYTHING.


Why? Because SE will ban you. If you say anything, you're putting your account at risk because you dared to criticize. The fact that you think you have the right to waste my time and break my enjoyment and believe that your time is worth more than mine shows a massive degree of selfishness and entitlement.

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Once again, I don't get to say what's acceptable but every player is responsible for adjusting their own experience. If you don't want dead weight: Leave or make your own party. Make some friends. Organize a FC of progression minded individuals. Don't drink from the public well and complain you don't like how it tastes though.


I have coached countless sprouts and poorly geared adventurers. Still here. Not even a warning. If you're getting reported it's likely HOW you're saying it, not what you're trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I see a lot of people such as yourself throw around the sentence "you don't have the right to tell others how to play."

Why do YOU have the right to waste MY time? Why do YOU have the right to cause ME frustration because you refuse to learn and constantly wipe the raid which also wastes my time? Why do YOU have the right to waste the time of everyone else in the party because YOU refuse to learn and get better?

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You have every chance to remove yourself from the situation or avoid it entirely, yet you're asking others to adjust to you. Which one of us is asking more of everyone but themselves?

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

How exactly does this seem normal to you? One side has the right to waste the others time and patience but the other side is not allowed to criticize you for doing exactly that. This doesn't make any sense at all, this is the most selfish and entitled thing I've ever heard in any MMO.

I have never ever heard anyone outside FF14 that believes they have the right to waste other peoples time by refusing to learn, and to add to that, if you call them out on it and criticize, they can get you reported and banned. This is a completely backwards system. Instead of bringing the lowest person up and get him to improve, we are bringing everyone else DOWN. Half the people I know are actively refusing to talk with anyone random just out of fear of them getting offended and putting their account at risk.

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Because real life works the same. Everywhere you go you'll find the only thing you truly have control over is yourself and how you interact with the world. You can tell everyone else on the road how to drive using even and polite language and you'll find that 99% of them will ignore you and likely the other 1% will actively change their behavior to spite you. Instead of demanding others to change, shape your own experience.
And once again, I have NEVER been actioned for coaching or criticizing.

Who, exactly, considers that acceptable? I don't think I've met anyone in the community who finds not understanding basic mechanics or standing in AoE's acceptable.

As a "community", we do not find that behavior acceptable. It's simply those individual trolls that are at fault. And does it really matter if a bad player calls you an elitist or toxic? I know it doesn't bother me at all if I try to help someone and they b**** at me.

The important thing is how you confronted said player about their ineptitude. There's a big difference between "just in case you didn't know, you have to use X and Y to get the mobs to attack you" and "hey scrub, learn to tank!"

If it was anything resembling the latter, then both parties are at fault.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Define 'subpar players' in terms that don't involve a parser or references to main story content.

When a player gets frustrated and decides it's time to stop 'mollycoddling', "Don't be a dick with your delivery" gets thrown out the window of an airplane flying at 35,000 feet above a volcano.

If you're only complaining in reference to optional content -- well that's fine. It's optional.

And you should be sure to specify that's what you mean.

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Subpar players: Players that are not new anymore and don't know the basics of their job or can't do the easiest mechanics. You don't need to parse to see if someone has no clue what he/she is doing. Want an example? There you go: Two RDM in a dungeon, tank pulls normal and only one of them uses scatter. The one that doesn't use scatter is a subpar player because he/she doesn't know the basics of his/her class.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

The funny thing is that its not only me who experienced the opposit of your story but also everyone i know in this game. So i would say you are either the luckiest person that ever logged into the game or you are telling a nice little fairytale, pick what you prefer.

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But fortunately I didn't and what are you expecting from me to come to the forums make a drama of what I didn't experienced in game during 4 years pretending that actually lived such experiences to be according your will? WoW.
Not even half of the b.s. described in these threads.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Of course you realise it's threads like these that makes things worse rather than better right? Newer people do read these things to get a feel for matters then rather than pipe up they stay quiet and continue to make the same mistakes because nobody wants to be "that player" and admit they're the new person to the run and don't quite got the mechanics thus the inevitable happens wipe wipe wipe win by skin of the teeth. They didn't learn anything but still wind up at endgame not knowing anything and the cycle perpetuates.

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That is strange because in four years of game play the players that were in 1st time and didn't know the mechanics did warn previously they were 1st timers or asked for the mechanics before every boss.

I do not expect you to be a god.
I do not expect you to read guides.
I do not expect you to never get any damage
I do not expect you to never mess up anything.

But i do wonder why you do not Aoe on large pulls? Especially as a Bard? Why don't bards aoe?
I do expect you to learn by doing? Like, yo're new? Fine, i(or others) can tell you basic mechanics if they're important enough. Like, you don't have the fight fully down even if not first time? Fine???
BUT you keep dying to the same thing over and over and over and over?

I know you may be playing the game after a workday and are a little tired maybe. But are you sure playing in this state is enjoyable for you?

Games are there to be PLAYED. Not to do while paying more attention to something else in the meantime?
It's not that hard to pay a little attention... just... a TINY LITTLE BIT ATTENTION.


But what do i know, i and other people got called toxic raiders because we weren't responsible for wiping thundergod cid over 4 times and wondered what's going on and who needs help. Even though we just asked for people to pay a little attention.

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Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

But fortunately I didn't and what are you expecting from me to come to the forums make a drama of what I didn't experienced in game during 4 years pretending that actually lived such experiences to be according your will? WoW.
Not even half of the b.s. described in these threads.



That is strange because in four years of game play the players that were in 1st time and didn't know the mechanics did warn previously they were 1st timers or asked for the mechanics before every boss.

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I didn't expect anything from you. If you experienced that then its nice for you but you call others, that haven't been as lucky as you, more or less liars. So cut the b.s. and enjoy your luck.