4.05 - Tank DPS comparison

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Originally Posted by Quor

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The problem here is that you're asking us to do field testing for something that can easily be verified just by looking at tooltips.

Why would we run any number of O1S's to test this and subject the results to composition, crit RNG, player performance, etc.?

The point is that the difference is extremely small, almost unnoticeable, to the point where even something like the aforementioned crit RNG would mask it completely, which is part of the problem; this is why people are complaining. Naturally gained Bloodspillers cause your PPGCD to actually go up by an appreciable amount, whereas TBN-proc'd Bloodspillers barely change it at all, and are either an extremely small loss, or (more rarely) an extremely small gain, to the point where TBN may as well not even do anything other than provide the shield. Every single time you use TBN to proc Bloodspiller you could have easily used that mana to DA a natural Bloodspiller, a Souleater, or even a Syphon Strike, and your PPGCD would be the same, if not slightly higher... for all intents and purposes it wouldn't change at all. Its a goddamn zero-sum game and that's why people are complaining.

If TBN was simply a 10-20% shield that cost no mana and had no blood gauge generation attached to it, DRK's DPS floor/ceiling would statistically not move at all.

Ok, since I can't seem to fall asleep tonight, let me more fully address the "expanded sample size" criticism put forth by Sizzle. I'll compare two combo's; the first will be purely DA+SE, with a DA used every other SE (to make it MP neutral when SS is factored in) and the second will be SE+BS, utilizing TBN on cooldown, and DA, if necessary, when TBN is not up to ensure a similar amount of MP is used in both combo's. I'll use a GCD of 2.5 (for the sake of making this nice rounded numbers, I know the real GCD at 70 is going to be closer to 2.3, and even less with BW up, but I'm not even going to touch BW here), and list the total potency each step adds to the combo. I'll add "natural" BS in as appropriate, acting under the assumption that they will be used as soon as they are available.

0 - HS (150p)
2.5 - SS (400p)
5 - DA+SE (840p, 10 blood)
7.5 - HS (990p)
10 - SS (1240p)
12.5 - SE (1540p, 20 blood)
15 - HS (1690p)
17.5 - SS (1940p)
20 - DA+SE (2380p, 30 blood)
22.5 - HS (2530p)
25 - SS (2780p)
27.5 - SE (3080p, 40 blood)
30 - HS (3230p)
32.5 - SS (3480p)
35 - DA+SE (3920p, 50 blood)
37.5 - BS (4320p)
40 - HS (4470p)
42.5 - SS (4720p)
45 - SE (5020p, 10 blood)

At this point, you can start over from the beginning, gaining another 5020 potency over the course of it, with an extra 10 blood at the end. After the 5th rotation, you would have an additional BS to use for another 400 potency, so assuming 5 of these 45 second rotations with the extra BS tacked on the end (for a total of 96 GCD's) we get 25,500 potency net, with 6 total BS, all of them natural. Now, for the TBN version:

0 - HS+TBN (150p)
2.5 - SS, TBN breaks (400p, 50 blood)
5 - SE (700p, 60 blood)
7.5 - BS (1100p, 10 blood)
10 - HS (1250p)
12.5 - SS (1500p)
15s - SE+TBN (1800p, 70 blood)
17.5 - BS (2200p, 20 blood)
20s - HS (2350p)
22.5 - SS (2600p)
25 - SE (2900p, 30 blood)
27.5 - HS (3050p)
30 - SS+TBN (3300p, 80 blood)
32.5 - SE (3600p, 90 blood)
35 - BS (4000p, 40 blood)
37.5 - HS (4150p)
40 - SS (4400p)
42.5 - SE (4700p, 50 blood)

At this point we have an interesting choice. Do we Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > TBN and then drop two Bloodspillers? Or do we BS right now, then wait a moment before BSing again? We'll assume an instant use of BS, as well as saving TBN until we have fully refreshed MP via the upcoming SS.

45 - BS (5100p, 0 blood)
47.5 - HS (5250p)
50 - SS (5500p)
52.5 - SE+TBN (5800p, 60 blood)
57.5 - BS (6200p, 10 blood)

Now, it doesn't look like the TBN+BS rotation will it as nicely into a 45s chunk as the DA+SE rotation will, so it's a bit tougher to extrapolate beyond this. We know that 5 rotations of the DA+SE combo plus the extra GCD at the end for the 6th BS is 227.5 seconds. This combo certainly does not fit neatly into that 227.5s window. The nearest approximation is 3.9 iterations of this combo in the same time frame, with a stupid amount of decimals after the 9. But for the sake of seeing what happens, let's just hand wave it and see what we see. Rounding up to 4 full rotations in the span of 227.5s, we get 24,800 potency, which is 700 less than the first combo would have done, or the difference of one non-DA Souleater combo.

But looking at the GCD-by-GCD breakdown, the TBN combo has some pretty distinct breakpoints where it's clearly superior to the DA+SE combo. Likewise, there are similar breakpoints where the DA+SE combo wins out over the TBN combo. For example, if you only have 4 GCD's of uptime on a target, the TBN+BS combo clearly wins out. But if your uptime increases to 6 GCD's, then it's better to sit on the BS and do a DA+SE and a normal SE combo instead (or, more realistically, a pair of DA+SE combo's).

Based on this, it's looking like there's no hard or fast rule on TBN usage. As long as your gauge is under 50 (i.e. you do not lose any blood when TBN pops) then you're safe to put TBN on someone in the event that you need a smaller amount of higher potency attacks. Any time you will be on a target for between 6 and 9 GCd's, it seems that sticking to a standard SE combo is the better plan. Anything less than 6, but more than 12, you'll want to try and utilize TBN for it's blood gain if possible. But if you're able to keep on the target for more than 15 or 16 GCd's, the DA+SE combo again is the better choice.

I actually really like this. It seems like there's a lot of decision making as to whether or not you can use one of your defensive cooldowns to gain an offensive bonus. It's not entirely one way or the other. Sometimes it's a DPS gain, sometimes it's a DPS loss, and you just have to be able to recognize the context so you can make the best decision on how to spend your resources. Kind of like WAR was back when Vengeance and RI granted stacks. I miss that kind of "aggressive" defensive cooldown usage.

I still think it's wrong to say TBN is "always" a loss when used as an offensive CD outside of Grit, but I do see that there is a great dual of nuance in how and when to utilize TBN and BS depending on the way the fight is going. You've gotta make a lot of on-the-fly decisions if you want to maximize your GCD and skill usage. I think it would be more accurate to say that TBN is a highly conditional cooldown that can be a strong DPS enabler in the right conditions, but isn't like other DPS cooldowns in that you don't always want to try and use it as often as possible.

/book

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

If TBN was simply a 10-20% shield that cost no mana and had no blood gauge generation attached to it, DRK's DPS floor/ceiling would statistically not move at all.

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Over the long run sure, but the long run isn't the only thing that matters.

However, with what I just mathed out in my previous post, I can see some justification for, at the least, lowering the MP cost of TBN. Make it half of what it is now and you double it's value compared to DA+SE. Alternatively, you could "bake in" the DA effect on BS when TBN is broken. Hell, remove the blood gauge gain and change TBN to something like "if the shield is broken, the cost of the next Bloodspiller or Quietus is removed and it's potency is increased by 140/60."

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Originally Posted by Quor

Over the long run sure, but the long run isn't the only thing that matters.

However, with what I just mathed out in my previous post, I can see some justification for, at the least, lowering the MP cost of TBN. Make it half of what it is now and you double it's value compared to DA+SE. Alternatively, you could "bake in" the DA effect on BS when TBN is broken. Hell, remove the blood gauge gain and change TBN to something like "if the shield is broken, the cost of the next Bloodspiller or Quietus is removed and it's potency is increased by 140/60."

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Now we're making suggestions.

Warrior need nerf now

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Originally Posted by Sefirus

Warrior need nerf now

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I am curious how you would reason this out given the numbers in OP and how they would be higher in any real raid setting for DRK and PLD with slashing debuff. Meaning numbers are near identical vs dummy.

Not to mention how warrior can be easier to mess up when mechanics come into play and it's rigid cleave rotations(and dependency upon them). Also how it brings little in terms of utility - if anything warrior should get more damage, or a miracle in Taylor Swift rework in 4.1 so we get utility somehow. Then again, even if one of the tanks is worse off right now, all can be utilized to clear.

Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Sefirus

Warrior need nerf now

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Or maybe you just need some more practice on Paladin to realize that you are capable of doing almost as much damage than the Warriors who you think need a nerf.

Oh but what's that? You want Paladins to be able to do MORE damage than Warriors? Like, you want to have things like Divine Veil, Cover, Intervention, and Passage of Arms... and STILL be able to do more damage than a job that has zero utility?

#spoiledbrat

You know this guy is just trolling you..? :/

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Originally Posted by Quor

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Now the conversation in going into a better direction. Thumbs up for that.
I will definitely agree with you that there are conditions that make TBN+BS valuable, i.e. any damage buff to the player or debuff to the target to maximize potency within those window.
Same as you need long remaining duration to make use of the extra 2400 MP (1 DA) you trade for every 6 use of TBN+BS, which is at minimum 90 sec which is very long time for a little benefit.

In practical fight, I'll agree that you'll benefit more from TBN+BS because of raid damage buffs if you're consistent at breaking shields.
Also, it's just more fun to use TBN+BS otherwise the DRK is just 2.0 PLD simple...

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Originally Posted by Quor

Over the long run sure, but the long run isn't the only thing that matters.
Alternatively, you could "bake in" the DA effect on BS when TBN is broken. Hell, remove the blood gauge gain and change TBN to something like "if the shield is broken, the cost of the next Bloodspiller or Quietus is removed and it's potency is increased by 140/60."

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An interesting idea, there are a few thoughts I have on it though.

First removing the 50 blood gauge gain and just making the next Bloodspiller or Quietus free is actually worse as gaining 50 Blood and being able to use those abilities free are the same, except you lose the option of using the 50 blood for Delerium. I would prefer to just keep the 50 blood gain.

The baked in DA is an interesting idea but it may be a smidge overpowered in my opinion.

I do agree that BS could use a little bit of a buff bump but I would rather see it be made into a more interesting ability than just a dps hammer to smack the enemy with.

That was why I proposed giving a small potency buff to DA+BS while giving regular BS a small potency nerf but with the added effect of decreasing the amount of cooldown left on Delerium by 30 seconds or so. That way you are left with a branching decision everytime you can BS, lots of damage right now or less damage now but with a gain in resources later.

This would make it more like CnS, which I think is a smarter or at least more interesting move. Although I do think that the mp return from regular CnS needs to be increased with the changes to MP gain and usage with 4.0, probably around the cost of a DA so that it is potentially a more meaningful decision instead of just always DAing it.

In fact that is what I would like to see more of in general for DRK, DA not just being a "moar dps" button but a decision making button where whether you use DA or not determines what kind of and how big of a benefit you get.

This approach would also help deal with the problem that I have seen a good number of players on the forums express of DA usage being "boring" and "braindead" since right now DA usage mainly just results in bigger hits so you always want to DA something if you can. Adding variation to that would make you have to decide when and what to DA based on the situation instead of "DA all the things".