I think its time BRD get some loving

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Why should we stop the strawman there?
Healers actually do ALL of the dps AND all of the tanking in any fight with unavoidable damage, since they keep the party alive, right?

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I'm merely pointing out that your concept of a buff is... well, wrong. Im sure you understood the point I was making, obviously.

The concept of buffs has never changed, why it does in this game all of a sudden is beyond me. Thats for you to explain...

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so don't sing Paeon, let's see how your parse relative to them gets at that point. your only objective is to get your parse number closer to the other DPS right?

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Clearly jumping in the end of a conversation without even reading. Try again, read slower, and then come back!

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

Just because they advocate not using dps tracking doesn't mean they are so ignorant to think people don't use them and to design the game in a way that ignores them. Also, more damage means bosses die faster making coil and other tough content even easier. The class imbalances exist for reasons.

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Every single patch with new gear or debuffs for old content invalidates that as a viable excuse because content is constantly and rapidly becoming easier with patches and new content. To say you need to keep the debuff so mobs won't die too fast is like telling SE to stop creating new levels of gear or new content that contains boss tweaks or echo. The fights are not easier to balance with the debuff and all that content is made easier regardless of having the debuff or not due to the ever increasing gear and boss nerfs. If anything (to me) it makes balancing even harder having to take into account a fairly worthless variable (debuff) that the teams and individuals would be better off without.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.

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be honest please. Everyone should be able to equal the top players (or at least do 80% of their work) if they tried it hard enough. But they don't. Because modern MMO players do not give a fuck about working toward something. They are happy enough if things die before them, even if that means they were carried hard by people who worked to be better.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Every single patch with new gear or debuffs for old content invalidates that as a viable excuse because content is constantly and rapidly becoming easier with patches and new content. To say you need to keep the debuff so mobs won't die too fast is like telling SE to stop creating new levels of gear or new content that contains boss tweaks or echo. The fights are no harder to balance without the debuff than they are with it and all that content is made easier regardless of having the debuff or not due to the ever increasing gear and boss nerfs.

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way to miss a point. Every patch with new gear or nerfs to the content comes with new bleeding edge content, thus making your point invalid. Obsolete content has no reason to remain difficult, hence why balance isn't required anymore in it. On the other hand, top content that is actually relevant is always well balanced.


I'm starting to think that you either don't know anything about what you're trying to argue, or you just ran out of arguments and continued just to try to have the last word

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

be honest please. Everyone should be able to equal the top players (or at least do 80% of their work) if they tried it hard enough. But they don't. Because modern MMO players do not give a fuck about working toward something. They are happy enough if things die before them, even if that means they were carried hard by people who worked to be better.

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The primary target audience of this game is not the elitists and minority top end players, it is the medium level of commitment and casual crowds that the game caters to more so than the hardcore, just because there is a small amount of hardcore content does not mean all content in the game is or should be designed for or balanced for that crowd. The game should not be balanced for the top 1% of players, it should be balanced for the remaining 99% so saying just because know a few bards whom do amazing DPS does not mean the game should be balanced for those, in my opinion it should be balanced for the majority who do not fall into that top 1% category.

What would be the point of the tp system, if one class could just sort tp of whole party with little penalty.

Paeon isn't meant to be played all day, it's just there to tie you over until invigorate comes off cd. get your mellee to communicate with as when they don't need ur paeon any longer. Like this, there is very little affect to to overall dps of a 10 minute fight .

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Come on lol, it isn't like we sing paeon all day. U just sign in the time it takes for invigorate to come off cd. Even with this, bards do very good dps. I think sumoners are in desperate need of changes

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I see no reason why SE cannot remove the %damage debuff on bards for songs at same time as increasing the DPS for lancers and fixing summoners. I do not think has to be one thing or the other, they can do all three things in my opinion. Our resource management as bards is not limited to TP, it is also MP so the resource management will not vanish just because of no %damage debuff on songs. I am constantly having to switch between different songs during long fights due to various needs of people present, MP management is quite high up on the agenda in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Come on lol, it isn't like we sing paeon all day. U just sign in the time it takes for invigorate to come off cd. Even with this, bards do very good dps. I think sumoners are in desperate need of changes

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Exactly, so why have the debuff at all? Removing it will not cause a balance issue to the game or mechanics or pure dps jobs. To sit and think that people will stack 4 bards because of the removal of the debuff is quite silly. There is nothing to gain from it, what? playing ballad all fight? Waste. Play paeon all fight? Waste. Foes all fight? oh wait, there is no debuff on that.

There is no point in having it anymore, truly there isnt. Maybe on first coil when bards WERE OP? Sure but since the balance pass, there really is no need for it as its not going to increase dps by THAT MUCH.

It wont trivialize content, bards will still play songs when it best suits the party.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

I disagree, there may be outliers or some who do extremely good damage but those few do not make up a vast majority of people who play bards.

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Then all of those Bards should strive to be better players, instead of making random suggestions on the forums about how the Job is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Your basing your principle of balance on what a few are capable of in your comment and not what the majority are doing. A game should be balanced for the majority and not the few or the outliers. So to me you care less about balance than I do because your coming at it in a flawed way.

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But the few and the 'outliers' are the ones who are performing their jobs correctly. The changes that all of you want to incorporate make those "few" actual good players way too overpowered (in regards to the WD as well as the song penalty)


We had the WD before. That was nerfed already because people were going into Titan HM (when it was relevant content, we are talking avg ilvl ~55-60) with 5 bards because they did enough damage to warrant not even having a limit break. 5 bard heart burn was disgusting. The WD will not be given back to us.

Everyone keeps making such a big deal about the damage penatly during song as well, when most of the people advocating it are outright confessing that songs aren't even used that much. If this penalty was removed, it would cascade into "we need more buffs because removing the penalty from songs wasn't good enough".


So in conclusion...



Your main argument here is that 95% of Bards that play suck at their job, so they need to be buffed because the players are bad?


Such logic...no wonder my static PLD told me when we first started raiding together: "I wish all Bards could play like you"

What will be your trade off for giving tp and mp to the whole party then? If they dont have the debuff everything 8man will be 3brds 1drg healers and tanks. 1 brd paeon 1 brd ballad when their mp run out the 3th brd ballad rinse and repeat, infinite mp and tp.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

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Congratulation, you just convinced me that you don't know how balancing a MMO game works.

If you want to have balance, you HAVE to balance it for the best players. If not, they'll just rip your game apart and everyone will follow their path; removing any sense of difficulty in the game, forcing then the devs to adapt to the top players, and it's done, the game is yet again balanced for top end gamers just as if you had done if from the start.

In the average 99%, there will be many categories, but mainly 3 :

=> those who will try to progress. They'll be able to pull out high numbers, maybe not the best possible but high enough to do anything in the game

=> those who don't care. They won't meet content that need them to do better anyway, they just follow their path. But what you're trying to argue doesn't interest them either.

=> those who don't want to work to be better (ain't anybody got time for that ?). They'll get carried through everything because they cant pull their own weight, and they're most likely to cry about anything with the word "reduce" in it it applying to themselves, because they can't grasp the bigger picture. Those people should stay out of MMOs in my opinion as they don't really fit the genre but whatever, who am I to tell them what to do ? I'll just live with it. And avoid them as much as possible.

TL;DR : game balance revolves around what the best ones can do. If not the game isn't balanced at all and it's crap. Those who aren't top end players can either improve to join the top, don't care and go their way or whine endlessly for buffs that aren't needed. Which category you belong is up to you.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Your main argument here is that 95% of Bards that play suck at their job, so they need to be buffed because the players are bad?

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isn't that the most used argument for many things ? "Players are bad so they must be buffed to be able to do as much damage as the top players", forgetting that top players would also benefit from these buffs, making them godlike