Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

I think the game forcing me to be Wuk’s best buddy after only knowing her for days is one of the most annoying things.

They thought way too much everyone would be head over heels for her and probably were really sure to be flooded with people begging for more of her.
I really wonder what exactly made them so sure of that.
Why did they think that she would be liked to this extend to the point of centering an entire expansion around her?

I am truly puzzled by that.

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Because these days tweets and likes matter more than non Big Three and SBI money. Twitter creams themselves over Wuk gushing about how much they want to marry her cause she is just the BESTEST EVAR and that those DIRTY DANG HATERS are just evil twolls, _ists and _phobes. Reddit, here and other places criticize and rightfully complain about the Black Hole Mary Sue princess and HER little Fanfiction adventures. It makes My Immortal look like peak fiction.


(Big Three refers too the main 3 shareholders in most things, Blackrock, State Street (which has 2 spots as SE's shareholders) and Vanguard)

guys you just a hater.. clearly the character has a charming personality even tural people loves her..

stop hating and just watch wuke lamati first quest in 7.1

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

guys you just a hater.. clearly the character has a charming personality even tural people loves her..

stop hating and just watch wuke lamati first quest in 7.1

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i will unironically be skipping every cutscene she is in. voiced or not

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Originally Posted by fulminating

We could have been stormblood zenos to someone.

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replace my late insane boyfriend by becoming the insane boyfriend? i like your thinking

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Originally Posted by BabySneed

Almost any character other than Wuk would've been better to focus on for the Alexandria part of the MSQ, why they felt the need to force Wuk in the players face so hard in the second half remains beyond me and was probably the single worst decision the writing team made in Dawntrail

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Wuk actually makes sense for the Alexandria part of MSQ if you consider that the intent was probably to pit two different rulers against one another and show how different their approaches/priorities were. Unfortunately, instead of using this as a moment to show Wuk's growth into a becoming a leader that understands that sometimes when you hit a threshold with an opposing force you have to do what needs to be done, she instead remains a weird clinging desperate bestie to Sphene (who does not appear to feel as strongly for her at all) and even right up til the end has her arms extended trying to make unrealistic peace with an entity actively trying to atomize everyone. The WoL has had their fair share of sympathetic enemies, but even they know when you hit a point where civility ends and that enemy needs to get smacked down.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Generally, yes, we were rather incognito in Tural, that I understand fully. Still would have been nice if there were people that actually knew at least rumors about the WoL from Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Honestly? That's another issue I take with the story. I really don't think the WoL should've been quite as anonymous as they were.
I mean, it'd be a stretch that anyone would recognize the WoL by sight, but still - there wasn't even so much as a hint that anyone was really aware of what occurred in Eoreza.

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Devil's advocate here, but Tural was overall pretty far removed from many events we had in prior expansions. We weren't aware of anything that happened in Tural, so I'm pretty forgiving that they weren't really aware of what happened in Eorzea. Similarly, if you examine what our role was in a lot of quests, we were really just kind of following around Wuk like some entourage, so only a very small number of people got a chance to see the WoL doing anything specifically outstanding.

Also, despite some crazy achievements on our side of the world, it's still established that even in Eorzea there are some people that still might not know who we are, by face at least. Like they've heard of the WoL, but it's almost like tall tales that get passed around and they're not exactly passing around our photos when they talk about this mythical hero, so like any game of telephone sometimes details get blurred.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

And in that same vein, we have become death, destroyer of worlds, having fought the strongest goes in the universe, and said retiree fought us to a standstill.

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Eh, I definitely got the vibe that the WoL was not fighting 100% against Galool Ja ja and it was more of a sparring match to evaluate him. I thought there was even a dialogue option that I picked that essentially said they weren't fighting to injure or something. Felt akin to Goku sparring someone with weighted clothing.

This "The WoL" is superman line of thinking really needs to stop. People need to read the lore on how aether works, how aether empowerement works. The WoL is a juiced up wonderkid. Sure!

But he doesnt solo armies no matter how badly they jumped the shark with the end of the universe stuff if faced by competent fighters that use aether as well. Weve been empowered, aided, plot armored on top of the Hydaelyn blessing juice.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

This "The WoL" is superman line of thinking really needs to stop. People need to read the lore on how aether works, how aether empowerement works. The WoL is a juiced up wonderkid. Sure!

But he doesnt solo armies no matter how badly they jumped the shark with the end of the universe stuff if faced by competent fighters that use aether as well. Weve been empowered, aided, plot armored on top of the Hydaelyn blessing juice.

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Yda kicked the brass blades apart no worries at the 2.55 cinematic. There’s probably some tenuous extrapolation from heavensward wrt dragons or the heretic outpost/akh afar amphitheatre. Our explicit equal Zenos killed a lot of dormat samurais no worries in that flashback. I’m not touching the shb main quest, but the wol is essentially a one man army/strike force an asset in bozja. Arguably the events of eureka orthos solo indicate similar certainty one man platoon capabilities.

Galolol jaja, trial’s strongest and a genetic supersoldier was not a particularly notable adversary, the way it’s mentioned Estonian recommending the player as a stronger opponent also implied he was more than a match for the head of rbeing-alive-still. I feel like some job quests (tank maybe?) said mastery was able to let you deal with a lot of enemies- curious gorge I think soloed some kobolds in hw quests maybe?

Either way there’s enough solid things that can be pointed at to suggest it’s not out the realm of possibility.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

Wuk actually makes sense for the Alexandria part of MSQ if you consider that the intent was probably to pit two different rulers against one another and show how different their approaches/priorities were.

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Even in this department it would make more sense to feature Koana and G'raha (both rulers btw) more heavily than Wuk
Koana's whole shtick is "muh massive technological innovations", by going to Alexandria he can gain a new perspective on how this very advanced technology he seeks might impact the people of Tural for both better and worse, also he is stated to have known Zoraal Ja for longer and better than Wuk, therefore he makes more sense to be the one to confront him
G'raha was also a ruler of a dying shard and is very knowledgeable about the shards and dimensional travel, how he handled his dying shard contrasts sharply with how Sphene handled hers and thus there is a reasonable conflict to arise between the two
However Koana was placed in the writers closet never to do anything again and G'raha might as well have been a background NPC with how little they acknowledged his relation to the story, he even got stuck in the second-class characters shed with Krile in the final trial despite being the only one there who could reasonably utilize a "rift in reality". Also both of these characters could've used the screentime more than Wuk who was already the focus of the entirety of the first half but I realize having the focus be on someone other than Wuk is apparently a blasphemous idea to the Dawntrail writers

Starting the MSQ for a third time (I have alts, sue me). The first time I went through as normal and the second was with JP audio. Oddly enough some of it was BETTER with the JP audio because there was actual EMOTION in the voices. The only thing I didn't like was how a lot of the characters, especially the males, tended to sound so similar. Maybe this was just to my American ears though. But the deeper male voices sounded like Anime Villain #1, #2, etc. And the younger voices were Male Anime Protag #1, etc. And I missed the ENG voices that I've heard the past 9 years, or whenever the current VAs took over. So for the third time I'm going back to ENG voices. And I KNOW I am beating a horse that is dead, buried, and turned to dust but the only reason I changed was cause of Wuk Lamat's ENG VA. They just don't emote properly. The normal talking dialogue is fine. And other than the forced accent, it actually fits the character. I don't know what happened with the ENG VAs this expansion, but my tin foil hat theory is they purposely made the veteran VAs sound bad so Wuk Lamat's wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb as much. Or the director/editor/whomever really dropped the ball.

Sorry for the possibly-off-topic rant there. I'm just.....absolutely baffled by what the actual fork happened this expansion. Other that Wuk Lamat's VA and the rushed pacing I didn't mind it much. Oh, and Smile. Dear GOD don't get me started on that song. It sounds like every upbeat pop song that was in animated movies from the early 2000s to the mid-2010s, especially the Dr Seuss movies. What the hell happened to the Amanda Achen song that was in the trailer? Does anyone actually know? Did she fall ill and couldn't sing the whole thing?

P.S. Sorry if this comes off a little disjointed. Sometimes I have trouble getting my thoughts together in a cohesive flow. My apologies.

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Originally Posted by Amariel34

Starting the MSQ for a third time (I have alts, sue me). The first time I went through as normal and the second was with JP audio. Oddly enough some of it was BETTER with the JP audio because there was actual EMOTION in the voices. The only thing I didn't like was how a lot of the characters, especially the males, tended to sound so similar. Maybe this was just to my American ears though. But the deeper male voices sounded like Anime Villain #1, #2, etc. And the younger voices were Male Anime Protag #1, etc. And I missed the ENG voices that I've heard the past 9 years, or whenever the current VAs took over. So for the third time I'm going back to ENG voices. And I KNOW I am beating a horse that is dead, buried, and turned to dust but the only reason I changed was cause of Wuk Lamat's ENG VA. They just don't emote properly. The normal talking dialogue is fine. And other than the forced accent, it actually fits the character. I don't know what happened with the ENG VAs this expansion, but my tin foil hat theory is they purposely made the veteran VAs sound bad so Wuk Lamat's wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb as much. Or the director/editor/whomever really dropped the ball.

Sorry for the possibly-off-topic rant there. I'm just.....absolutely baffled by what the actual fork happened this expansion. Other that Wuk Lamat's VA and the rushed pacing I didn't mind it much. Oh, and Smile. Dear GOD don't get me started on that song. It sounds like every upbeat pop song that was in animated movies from the early 2000s to the mid-2010s, especially the Dr Seuss movies. What the hell happened to the Amanda Achen song that was in the trailer? Does anyone actually know? Did she fall ill and couldn't sing the whole thing?

P.S. Sorry if this comes off a little disjointed. Sometimes I have trouble getting my thoughts together in a cohesive flow. My apologies.

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Yoshida said that they went with a different studio for the EN dub and the VAs chimed in later that they weren't given context, just lines to read. They obviously wanted to go with the cheapest route, and I imagine the localization lead's friend with minimal experience was both easy and cheap to get for the character that the entire expansion revolves around. I do find it kind of funny that you think the male antagonists have generic villain voices given the role Zoraal Ja's JP VA(Daisuke Ono) is probably best known for.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Yoshida said that they went with a different studio for the EN dub and the VAs chimed in later that they weren't given context, just lines to read. They obviously wanted to go with the cheapest route, and I imagine the localization lead's friend with minimal experience was both easy and cheap to get for the character that the entire expansion revolves around. I do find it kind of funny that you think the male antagonists have generic villain voices given the role Zoraal Ja's JP VA(Daisuke Ono) is probably best known for.

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That explains a lot with the rest of the ENG cast. And I'm sorry if what I said was insulting or offensive. Sometimes I don't know how to word what I want to say so I tend to go with the first thing that pops in my head. I watched a lot of anime in the 90s and early 2000s so that's what my mind goes to when I hear voices like that. And what role is Zoraal Ja's VA known for, if I may ask?

Wuk Lamat is likely the most insufferable character I've ever come across in any video game, it's quite literally 'Poochie' and I only hope it suffers the same fate

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Originally Posted by Awkward

Wuk Lamat is likely the most insufferable character I've ever come across in any video game, it's quite literally 'Poochie' and I only hope it suffers the same fate

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Now now. Wuk Lamat wants our character's to stay in Tural so she can become the player character. That way the devs can save time and money not having to make gear or weapons since Wuk Lamat won't need them. She will also go by warrior of tacos instead of Warrior of light.

So, I reached the point where the city gets attacked...

Old lady cries for help but help is conveniently too far away, lady dies, guard goes into rage mode, rushes in blind and dies as well.
In the aftermath, a few mamool ja children are supposedly orphaned. One wandering the square back and forth crying for mom and dad, npcs? No one gives a shit. Shop keepers? Yeah business as usual. Alisaie? Standing in the corridor, issues? Wuk Lamat.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...f9ce2504eb8d0&

I expected this story to give a shit about these children....I wandered around the city after the attack and one of the taco shop keepers gave me a 'these soldiers need some tacos to resolve conflict' are you kidding me? You saw people get butchered in the streets and the writing is like 'yes, food will bring us together'

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...58cbd03248dfe&

Really...? They really are taking this taco thing abit too far it's obnoxious.

Dead body at the beach, kept for plot (Wuk Lamat) reasons is left there, meanwhile no one is losing appetite over dead bodies. It's of course time for tacos. I understand stress eating is a thing but come on....

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...40f4b3934c5e5&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4db267d5cb489&

I hate this whole Lamat'yi that Alisaie has latched onto. Wuk Lamat goes to help 2 people, suddenly she needs rest? We had no concept of time passing. Even continuity errors in the throne room. The throne got sliced in half but no debris in the next cutscene...what?

It's so upsetting to see Erenville- who got wrangled into this mess ask about his village and we act like we're in scooby doo. Then Y'shtola, the beacon of wisdom and compassion....tells him that the scions are disbanded in the most passive aggressive way...who wrote this? Why are all characters acting so unlikeable? Why am I essentially rendered into the camera man to watch Zoraal Ja kill his father because of honor? What use is honor when your people are being butchered on the street because your son/brother is delusional? Why didn't Krile tell anyone? Or warn anyone of what she saw, it was implied that he was going to do something to his 'family' in the 2nd jumpscare at the cooking contest- or is it just a fourth wall break?

When Zenos captured her in SB she talked to HIM. Who was she talking to when she got two jumpscares from looking into Zoraal Ja's 'heart' I guess? If it's just foreshadowing it sucks because it kinda spoils what's to come. Just like Y'shtola came in with no knowledge whatsoever and pulled 'gate to another reflection' thanks for ruining any mystery.
I guess Krile's parents were waiting with baby at the gate and expecting random person to accept and raise their child. No questions asked.

I see the writer seems fond of that topic?
Wuk Lamat? Real father puts her in the care of another and ceases to exist as her parent
Koana? Literally abandons/ditches him.
Erenville? Mother favored adventuring over him? And would rather leave him with Auntie over here...damn? (I hope I'm wrong?)
Krile? Mother and Father are from another reflection, leave her in the care of a complete stranger and then run back. Why not stay?
Random kids in city? Orphaned and no one cares, even the so called heroes from across the salt, their promise would rather try her chance with a dead body.
Bakool Ja Ja? Father might as well be the embodiment of asian parent, but at least he came around.

I know this is abit nitpicky but these little things kinda feel awful. Also what the hell is going on with the voice acting? Koana and Wuk Lamat giving a speech from high balcony to whom? No one can hear you speaking softly to each other.

Bomb train....sigh..I have no words.
I just feel sorry for Erenville...one regular guy surrounded by a literal circus. I don't see why Y'shtola and G'raha were necessary. Why disband the scions in the first place when it's meaningless anyway?

I thought it might get better, but it seems like the entire story is getting from bad to worse. I would've liked a Rhalgr's reach like solo duty where we tried to help people, even the attack on the crystarium/lakeland felt more involved. I think it would've been nice to have arrived LATE at the palace because we were saving civilians or TRYING. Instead we just stood there to watch. Even Estinien is getting way more action than us...what the hell?

I believe there's more issues to the story than Wuk Lamat, the fact that everyone doesn't question her dumb ideas and goes along with it.

The most fun I had was getting away from Wuk Lamat and the scions and being in Shaaloani with Erenville, the story was still stupid, but it was at least tolerable. I enjoyed the music there....the story/npcs/voice acting? Pretty bad.

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I think the attack on the city was cool, but I think it suffers from Endwalker syndrome, where we just 'watch'. Ahewann got eaten in slow motion as we watched. I would've preferred this be a solo duty, Rhalgar's Reach and the Lakeland solo duty were both good. Yes, it showed you that you couldn't save everyone, even Rhalgar's reach showed you that you can also be powerless. Even Estinien is getting more action than us. When do I get to help people and stop being the camera man? When do I get AWAY from Wuk Lamat.

If you want to make the player feel helpless, this isn't the way to do it. In the Cold was an amazing solo duty prior to its nerf that showed that they can make you feel helpless- that you can't save everyone.

Where are the Landguard? Why aren't they in the city proper helping civilians? All I'm seeing are scattered NPCs being confused/scared some even returned to their duties like nothing happened. It's a jarring experience.

Oh also, the 'speech' was really horrible, I think it might've been the director's fault, addresses the masses from a high above balcony but Koana and Wuk Lamat are talking to people as if they're sitting together in a room. How are these people hearing these softly spoken motivational words. I saw someone say the VAs said that they were given lines to read but no context....if so, it makes sense in this case...

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I know this is abit nitpicky but these little things kinda feel awful.

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See, that's how I thought too at first, just me being nitpicky, but when there are that many "little things" to the point you can make a list, then they're not nitpicks, they're a pattern. The whole narrative is just a mess with or without Wuk Lamat.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

See, that's how I thought too at first, just me being nitpicky, but when there are that many "little things" to the point you can make a list, then they're not nitpicks, they're a pattern. The whole narrative is just a mess with or without Wuk Lamat.

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Yup. The game has conditioned us to expect a certain level of attention to detail over the years. We wouldn't expect so much if the game hadn't always been about the little things.

I'm playing through the DRK quests on an alt at the moment and I'm sitting here wondering what Fray would think of the stuff we're made to do during DT.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

snip...

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I've noticed Hiroi loves making every story about parental issues of some sort. It's like he grew up on bad JP dramas (which love the trope as much as he does) and thinks that's the only kind of character motivations that exist.

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

Yup. The game has conditioned us to expect a certain level of attention to detail over the years. We wouldn't expect so much if the game hadn't always been about the little things.

I'm playing through the DRK quests on an alt at the moment and I'm sitting here wondering what Fray would think of the stuff we're made to do during DT.

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What Fray would think? Well.. I imagine that if there was the choice to actually do what Fray would want in the situations we were put through, the part in zone six where your character is suddenly on board with it that a genocide is needed to advance the plot, would have happened a few zones earlier in the msq.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

So, I reached the point where the city gets attacked...

Old lady cries for help but help is conveniently too far away, lady dies, guard goes into rage mode, rushes in blind and dies as well.
In the aftermath, a few mamool ja children are supposedly orphaned. One wandering the square back and forth crying for mom and dad, npcs? No one gives a shit. Shop keepers? Yeah business as usual. Alisaie? Standing in the corridor, issues? Wuk Lamat.

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Nice catch! This bothered me too, because it was SO out of character for Alisaie considering her reactions to the very similar circumstances with Ga Bu and Halric!

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Originally Posted by CamuiKushi

I'm playing through the DRK quests on an alt at the moment and I'm sitting here wondering what Fray would think of the stuff we're made to do during DT.

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https://i.imgur.com/x4oteOY.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Rueby

....I wandered around the city after the attack and one of the taco shop keepers gave me a 'these soldiers need some tacos to resolve conflict' are you kidding me? You saw people get butchered in the streets and the writing is like 'yes, food will bring us together'...

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I just got through this section on an alt yesterday, but I didn't talk to any NPCs. Holy crap, that line about tacos is awful. I would call it tone-deaf, but this is something beyond that. And from a practical matter, we figured out pretty quick that those "soldiers" aren't even human and couldn't eat a taco anyway.

On my second pass through the story, I'm fairly well convinced that much of Hiroi's inspiration is a reaction to modern politics and discourse. He's looking at how people treat each other on social media, the vitriol and mean-spirited arguments that infest so much of our daily lives, and saying that if we can just sit down and talk things over we might find out that we have more in common than we think. I think that is admirable and even worthy to an extent; after all, it is more difficult to hate a man once you get to know him. However, that kind of falls apart when it comes down to existential matters of life and death, and the destruction of all that we know.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I thought it might get better, but it seems like the entire story is getting from bad to worse. I would've liked a Rhalgr's reach like solo duty where we tried to help people, even the attack on the crystarium/lakeland felt more involved. I think it would've been nice to have arrived LATE at the palace because we were saving civilians or TRYING. Instead we just stood there to watch. Even Estinien is getting way more action than us...what the hell?

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[Spoilers for the last 2/3rds of Dawntrail]
I had a lot of patience for the first half when I first played through. Are there issues? oh GOD YES, there's many, but I was kind of willing to quash my feelings for the moment because I still believed "well, this is kind of silly and stupid, but it's probably building to something cool." There's been some stupid moments in the plot before (like everything with the Lopporits in Endwalker) where I could just roll my eyes and move on because I trusted we'd get to something interesting and good again soon. I was trying to give it the benefit of the doubt so hard. Wuk Lamat is an annoying idiot? That's okay, I bet she'll have a moment of character growth and get better. The people of Tural seem kind of shallow and need some outsider to come solve very obvious problems for them? It's all part of the Rite of Succession, it's a test to see how the challengers approach problem solving, sure, whatever. Gulool Ja Ja dies in a stupid way to his son? Well, they could have handled that better, but I understand what they were going for thematically I guess.

I kept doing that over and over and over again until I got to zone 5 and couldn't do it anymore, because I realized they were building toward NOTHING. Wuk Lamat has the poorest excuse for character development I've ever seen. Lyse had her annoying moments in Stormblood, but she was humbled by her naivete and got better later (even if she didn't quite earn her position in a satisfying way). Wuk Lamat just learns that empathy is her superpower and that somehow lets her win fights and make friends with everyone she wants (not even remotely how empathy works, obviously). The people of Tural apparently ARE just that shockingly clueless and needed Wuk Lamat to solve their problems by teaching them to [checks notes] listen to others and believe in each other. That's great for resolving disputes among friends, but that can't actually solve a lot of political conflict, now, can it? Gulool Ja Ja dies while we just stand there slack-jawed and watch it happen? That whole "siege" felt like a nothing-burger when there was no instanced battle where we had to fight off and defend people in the city, and while we were busy doing Hero Stuff, Gulool Ja Ja dies, and we see it in an echo vision or something to catch us back up.

And then we learn nothing and go to Solution 9 with the same Friendship is Magic mentality in a place it explicitly does not belong because they are a hostile enemy nation! But I'm sure if we all get to know each other and share some food, we can overcome all of our differences and find peace, right?

Can you imagine if the war with the Garlean Empire was handled this way in Stormblood? If we had some tag-along insisting that all we needed to do to end the war was just befriend Varis or Zenos and share some Garlean Pizza and Doman Rice Balls together? If we could come to understand them by learning about how sad it is to be a Garlean, and they just have to conquer the whole world to be able to end prejudice against Garleans or something completely unethical and ridiculous like that? Can you imagine if during the fight with Shinryu at the end, the annoying tag-along came bursting into the fight out of literally nowhere and went "Zenos! Listen to me! I understand you, I really do!" Because that's pretty much how the last 2/3rds felt to me.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

[Spoilers for the last 2/3rds of Dawntrail]
"Zenos! Listen to me! I understand you, I really do!"

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Not a single chance in hell for Zenos not to instantaneously obliterate you if you were to do this.

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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Originally Posted by ovIm

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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That's something similar to what i had as a thought and I had AI help me.

Fray:

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"Wuk Lamat? A cheerleader in armor, given more power than she knows what to do with. Do you really think she earned her place, or are you just letting the story sweep you along, hoping for something more? It’s laughable, isn’t it—someone so untested claiming victory over battles they didn’t truly fight. And where does that leave you?"

"Look at her. No scars, no burden of the past weighing her down—yet she stands at the center while those who’ve bled and suffered stand aside. Tell me, does it not gnaw at you? The feeling of being sidelined while someone else, someone lesser, takes your kill, your moment."

"But perhaps this is what you wanted all along—a simple, tidy resolution, without the mess of emotion or struggle. So be it. But remember this: no victory worth having is handed to you. And no true hero lets another steal their story."

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Zenos:

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"This... Wuk Lamat... she rules? But does she fight? Does she seek the thrill of battle? No... she is another empty puppet, content with titles and crowns. Her existence is as fleeting and hollow as the rest."

"If she cannot offer me a challenge, if she cannot push me to the edge of death and beyond, she is of no consequence. Only strength, only the battlefield, holds meaning. If she cannot provide that... then her rule is worthless."

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Originally Posted by MoiraTerrwell

"Tell me, does it not gnaw at you? The feeling of being sidelined while someone else, someone lesser, takes your kill, your moment."

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You know, I hate giving points to AI slob, but THAT particular bit hit harder than it should have. Chapeau x)

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Originally Posted by ovIm

A dialogue between Wuk Lamat and Zenos is not something I thought I ever wanted, but now that this idea in my head, I want to see Wuk Lamat despair at Zenos' nihilism :'D

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Yotsuyu and Fordola are other characters that make for fun scenarios to think about. Maybe Ilberd too.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

You know, I hate giving points to AI slob, but THAT particular bit hit harder than it should have. Chapeau x)

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Why look for AI slop when Zenos himself teased us with an option to accept him at the Royal Menagerie?

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Heh heh...are we to embrace and let bygones be bygones? Do our deeds weigh so little that you would cast all aside? Come. 'Twas plain from the first how this would end.

You live for these moments - when all hangs in the balance...when the difference between life and death is but a single stroke.

I live for them too! This is who we are, my friend! This is all we are! Ala Mhigo and Doma and Garlemald be damned! We tower above the gods! You by your gift, I by my might!

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Zenos knows what he wants- what he is, what he's done. He's not deluded by a greater cause or reason. I'd rather have him than the circus I'm surrounded by in DT but I know this is an unpopular opinion.

That aside, I think Zenos would've ignored Wuk Lamat in SB, or gave her the 'speech' that he gave to uh.. Jullus was it? if it's in EW. Which would've fried her last functioning braincell. She can't comprehend anything but peace and happiness and food existing.

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Originally Posted by MoiraTerrwell

Not a single chance in hell for Zenos not to instantaneously obliterate you if you were to do this.

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He wouldn't think they were remotely worth bothering with and would just leave which would be even worse.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Zenos knows what he wants- what he is, what he's done. He's not deluded by a greater cause or reason. I'd rather have him than the circus I'm surrounded by in DT but I know this is an unpopular opinion.

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Why do you think it would be unpopular. I think there will only me a small subsection who incapable of separate fiction and reality, like how they believe no one has any business liking or simping Emet Setch because it "romanticize genocide".

Game is entertainment, and entertainment is to entertain. It's not rare for people - if given a choice between a cool villain and a boring heroes, most will prefer the former.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Zenos knows what he wants- what he is, what he's done. He's not deluded by a greater cause or reason. I'd rather have him than the circus I'm surrounded by in DT but I know this is an unpopular opinion.

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personally i always say that zenos is like the joker in nolan's dark knight, he is just here to bring chaos and that's it, to me if you like that joker and not zenos, you seriously didn't understand the character. not every villain need a great scheme. at least zenos made us feel vulnerable and was a real threat in SB (litterally kicked WoL a*s twice, we can even add yugiri the second time and sliced y'shtola), all of this by being "just a human" at that time.

I don't remember where I heard this, but is the main writer of Dawntrail the same one who did the Werlyt storyline?
Because that's a fact I just can't buy going from one story to the other.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

I don't remember where I heard this, but is the main writer of Dawntrail the same one who did the Werlyt storyline?
Because that's a fact I just can't buy going from one story to the other.

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Here are his credits as per SE:

https://i.redd.it/veilyqkzqis91.png

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

I don't remember where I heard this, but is the main writer of Dawntrail the same one who did the Werlyt storyline?
Because that's a fact I just can't buy going from one story to the other.

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There are three writers credited for Dawntrail main story: Daichi Hiroi (pictured in the post above mine with some of his writing credits), Tomohiro Kawasaki (who wrote the Four Lords and Werlyt Trial series), and Megumi Onozuka (who wrote the Pixie and Dwarf quests in Shadowbringers along with some other random side quests in Endwalker).

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Originally Posted by Rueby

That aside, I think Zenos would've ignored Wuk Lamat in SB, or gave her the 'speech' that he gave to uh.. Jullus was it? if it's in EW. Which would've fried her last functioning braincell. She can't comprehend anything but peace and happiness and food existing.

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So... are we going to ignore that she marched straight into Alexandria fully intent on avenging Tuliyollal and Gulool Ja Ja by murdering Zoraal Ja? And that no amount of reasoning, not even the existence of Zoraal Ja's son, could sway her from this? And that her last moments with Zoraal Ja were spent angrily dismissing his self-pity when he had so much to live for? Or that she brought the axe down on Sphene, who she wanted to befriend, without hesitation when it became clear that there was no changing Sphene's mind about continuing her invasion of Tuliyollal? That Wuk Lamat?

Sure, she'd try talking to Zenos but she'd then try to take his head when it became clear that he has no interest in anything but war after the first two minutes. There's plenty to criticize about Wuk Lamat but characterizing her as someone who can understand nothing but love and peace feels weird when Dawntrail's third act is all about her revenge plot and intentionally messing with his head by refusing to meet him immediately while also buying Koana time to organize Tural's defenses for the inevitable second assault.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

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Well, when I wrote that I hadn't reached that point of the story. If you saw, my last post prior to the one you responded to ended at the bomb train

I don't want to think about the Mary Sue furry OC of the writer anywhere near Zenos let alone 'taking his head'...Anyway, I do believe her writing is very shallow now that I finished the MSQ. I hope I never see her again...

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I finished the MSQ and honestly, she ruined the last trial. I was zoned out the moment she appeared. Thancred and Zenos did it better....

Maybe I'll write my thoughts about it but I honestly feel...disappointed? Kinda empty too...

I feel like we got the 'Remember us... Remember that we once lived...' - The expansion ending, why am I getting rehashed Amaurot and rehashed Emet-Selch/Meteion/E12? Why is the last boss a vacuum cleaner? I have alot of things to say but I'm...too exhausted to say them...even remembering them feels...tiring.

The last zone made me cry, but not for the right reasons, I found myself angry/frustrated by how cheery and willing to accept everything everyone was. It felt...like it minimizes grief simply because this is a simulation. They had an interesting topic/material but I feel like they squandered it. I really liked the regulators, the idea of soul extraction being revisited- being something that was researched by Zenos was exciting to me...I wanted to know more, but I kept getting the whole 'omg so immoral :CC' (I unironically think it has alot of cool RP potential tho I don't RP)

The only positive things I'll praise them for are NPC placements/emotes, I know 3 NPCs at the beginning of the amusement park area made me cry for a few hours. It hurts but not in a good way.
I love Erenville tho I'm not sure how to digest the 180 he did at the end, but I'd be happy to have him around...he out of everyone felt at least human. I'd love to go on an adventure with him.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...816d9a7cf5c68&

This hit abit close to home...
And also I guess the way Erenville was always placed closer to the dome when we were making the bomb train (yay), and later on his head tracking was always fixed on his mother....I appreciated that small detail.

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Originally Posted by Fatch38

personally i always say that zenos is like the joker in nolan's dark knight, he is just here to bring chaos and that's it, to me if you like that joker and not zenos, you seriously didn't understand the character. not every villain need a great scheme. at least zenos made us feel vulnerable and was a real threat in SB (litterally kicked WoL a*s twice, we can even add yugiri the second time and sliced y'shtola), all of this by being "just a human" at that time.

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I mean he did say it right in EW, he's our mirror. I liked him for his simplicity.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Why do you think it would be unpopular. I think there will only me a small subsection who incapable of separate fiction and reality, like how they believe no one has any business liking or simping Emet Setch because it "romanticize genocide".

Game is entertainment, and entertainment is to entertain. It's not rare for people - if given a choice between a cool villain and a boring heroes, most will prefer the former.

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Because sadly from my personal experience in-game, I met alot of people who hate Zenos. My first 'friend circle' was so allergic to him they felt entitled to attack me as a person for my morality for being excited to see a "objectively badly written character" and to spoil the ending of SB for me when I was still in HW. I know he's a divisive character, I find that interesting about him, but from my experience I feel like loving him is an unpopular opinion and he constantly gets compared to Emet-Selch.

I kinda felt that maybe the story means alot to people that they feel strongly about such characters to be quite interesting but I'll forever be salty that people attacked me for looking forward to him and stripped me from the one thing I looked forward to....I just thought everyone hated him because that's what I personally experienced and saw, that people just want him to stay dead because it's a relief, he's that character you hate on I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I mean he did say it right in EW, he's our mirror. I liked him for his simplicity.



Because sadly from my personal experience in-game, I met alot of people who hate Zenos. My first 'friend circle' was so allergic to him they felt entitled to attack me as a person for my morality for being excited to see a "objectively badly written character" and to spoil the ending of SB for me when I was still in HW. I know he's a divisive character, I find that interesting about him, but from my experience I feel like loving him is an unpopular opinion and he constantly gets compared to Emet-Selch.

I kinda felt that maybe the story means alot to people that they feel strongly about such characters to be quite interesting but I'll forever be salty that people attacked me for looking forward to him and stripped me from the one thing I looked forward to....I just thought everyone hated him because that's what I personally experienced and saw, that people just want him to stay dead because it's a relief, he's that character you hate on I guess.

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Zenos never bothered me like that. He made for an interesting reflection on the Warrior of Light. I was sad when he died to be honest. Would have been a nice redemption arc for him had he lived after our duel.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

I kinda felt that maybe the story means alot to people that they feel strongly about such characters to be quite interesting but I'll forever be salty that people attacked me for looking forward to him and stripped me from the one thing I looked forward to....I just thought everyone hated him because that's what I personally experienced and saw, that people just want him to stay dead because it's a relief, he's that character you hate on I guess.

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Here is my advise: any time you see someone who can't differentiate between real and fiction, just turn and never look back.

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Originally Posted by Rueby

Because sadly from my personal experience in-game, I met alot of people who hate Zenos. My first 'friend circle' was so allergic to him they felt entitled to attack me as a person for my morality for being excited to see a "objectively badly written character" and to spoil the ending of SB for me when I was still in HW. I know he's a divisive character, I find that interesting about him, but from my experience I feel like loving him is an unpopular opinion and he constantly gets compared to Emet-Selch.

I kinda felt that maybe the story means alot to people that they feel strongly about such characters to be quite interesting but I'll forever be salty that people attacked me for looking forward to him and stripped me from the one thing I looked forward to....I just thought everyone hated him because that's what I personally experienced and saw, that people just want him to stay dead because it's a relief, he's that character you hate on I guess.

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I've found this a few times and, in my opinion, it all comes down to one thing: Zenos beat the Warrior of Light in battle. It seems that, to some players, that is absolutely unforgivable. I actually really didn't like him at first either. I mean, he committed the cardinal sin of defeating the Warrior of Light in a one-on-one fight! I remember thinking "how the hell..." when that happened. We'd fought, and beaten Primals and Dragons by that point.

It wasn't until later in the story I realised that said loss was a wake-up call that we needed. All those victories - all the praise - the fact that the Warrior of Light had pretty much become a 'trump card' to point at the biggest problems. And then we finally meet a challenge that we couldn't overpower. A challenge that didn't have Primal powers or the Echo but kicked the Warrior of Light's ass anyway, easily, and walked off as if it were not worth a second thought. I've since always felt that this was character development that both Zenos AND our character needed, particularly in terms of demonstrating to the Alliance/the Scions that pointing the WoL at the Big Bad may not be the answer to everything.

This meant that I, personally, enjoyed his endgame and character development in Endwalker. I mean, its difficult to ignore the fact that, regardless of why he did it, he acknowledged that the WoL was too busy engaging in heroics to fight him and later on, once he was done assisting us against Endsinger, he waited patiently for us to finish talking with Meteion before addressing us and offered to let us walk away if we wanted to. And whilst it was, unfortunately, not an option anyway (which was a little irritating) I actually think that he probably would’ve let us go.

What we saw was that Zenos had learned, in his own unique way, what it means to care for someone. His former demands of “I WILL have my contest!") changed to sincerely offering the WoL to share in the only form of happiness he understood. And he was finally able to see WoL as their own person. The way he referred to the WoL as “Adventurer” demonstrated that he understood there is a part of WoL that's difficult for them to express in the midst of all the heroics that were, more often than not, forced upon them. And we directly, and indirectly, gave him a purpose to live. It's what makes him an intriguing character.