Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I'm honestly half expecting a stealth full rework of SCH to make it as braindead easy as SMN, because the healing side of the kit still requires minimal brainpower.

Mostly because Yoshi P said before EW launch that they don't know what else to add to SCH anymore.

---

I think the removal of Summon Selene is a good idea of what they have planned for SCH in 7.0. 1-2 new buttons and the rest will be upgrades via traits, just like in Endwalker. Otherwise I cannot figure out why they would've bothered removing Selene's button mid expac and adding faerie glamour when they could've waited until DT and touted it as a new feature for SCH that was part of the rework. (Or you're right and this was a rework feature that got pushed live ahead of the rework like one of the DRG changes?)

I remember going into Endwalker Yoshi-P gave an interview saying that removing buttons each expansion from healers was incredibly hard compared to the Tanks or DPS jobs because of how many of the healing buttons are situational, and that they weren't really sure which ones they could remove without "causing issues." We can all probably point to things like Cure I, Physick, etc but it seems very much like an issue they just don't want to tackle and keep shoving off until they plan to do total overhauls to the game, and based on his statements about how they're going to look at jobs after level 100, I think its somewhat safe to say that this is just Scholar for the next few years.

I expect AST to still have things like Synastry and Enhanced Benefic come 7.0 because they've survived this long and SE is deathly frightened over the idea that 10+ year old min ilvl coils might not be possible or something

As an aside I wouldn't be surprised if they removed Aetherflow as a button and made Energy Drain function like SMN's Energy Drain as a way to consolidate buttons and remove skill ceiling from SCH's kit. Gets rid of Yoshida not liking SCHs using Aetherflow for damage over healing too while keeping the 'core' of using it on CD for MP and stacks. Damage buttons are always what they look at first with healers when they want to get rid of something lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

For a moment, I thought I saw a post in this thread that was nothing but fifteen 1s, and I was like:

• If that's to imply that healers get a sub-2 second GCD, that could be interesting, maybe? :confused:
• If that's to imply that we lose our poor, refresh-every-30 seconds DoT, that would be... unfortunate. :(

---

Probably mine, it's because there's a character limit and I was going to post a heck of a lot more than 3000 characters. So I posted a filler post of '11111111111', then edited it to the actual text I intended, guess you might have caught it right as I had posted it but before I had edited it?

Might want to go look at the post again (if you've not already), because I am not in the habit of asking for/suggesting such bland gameplay

Square needs to stop being so scared of cutting bloated buttons because it may unbalance x or y content especially since they don’t seem to care about it for literally any other role in the game

Oh yeah sure we can’t make cure 1 become cure 2 because you actually rely on freecure in coils for mana management or synastry has niche cases in healing BJ/CC but sure SMN can do 20% more damage than any other DPS in the 70 ultimates despite having a 1 button rotation and WAR does more damage than half the actual DPS and it also had the best tank kit at level 70

WHM- freecure needs to go, tetra can go, bension can go, medica 2 either needs to be given a CD or just delete medica 1
AST- critfic needs to go, synastry can go, minor arcana can go, astrodyne can go, intersection can go, exaltation can go, neutral sect should be nerfed
SGE- crit diagnosis can go, ixochole can go, soteria can go, taurochole can go, panhaima and holos can be nerfed
SCH- blessing can go, chain can go, physick can go, protraction can be baked into other buttons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square needs to stop being so scared of cutting bloated buttons because it may unbalance x or y content especially since they don’t seem to care about it for literally any other role in the game

Oh yeah sure we can’t make cure 1 become cure 2 because you actually rely on freecure in coils for mana management or synastry has niche cases in healing BJ/CC but sure SMN can do 20% more damage than any other DPS in the 70 ultimates despite having a 1 button rotation and WAR does more damage than half the actual DPS and it also had the best tank kit at level 70

WHM- freecure needs to go, tetra can go, bension can go, medica 2 either needs to be given a CD or just delete medica 1
AST- critfic needs to go, synastry can go, minor arcana can go, astrodyne can go, intersection can go, exaltation can go, neutral sect should be nerfed
SGE- crit diagnosis can go, ixochole can go, soteria can go, taurochole can go, panhaima and holos can be nerfed
SCH- blessing can go, chain can go, physick can go, protraction can be baked into other buttons

---

I disagree. Enhanced Benefic, Minor Arcana and Intersection sure, but Synastry and Exaltation can stay. The latter because it at least fits thematically with AST being a delayed healer. Synastry just needs to be updated to work with A. Benefic's regen, ED, and Exaltation. If we get more dual tank busters I can see it being used with that.

Neutral Sect is a weird spot. I don't want it. You can argue the idea it can replace old Nocturnal Sect and for its duration all of ASTs regens become shields (where Collective loses its mitigation unless its under Neutral and Exaltation does the same, only being a delayed heal but under Neutral becoming the new CI or conversely keeping CI and giving it the Diurnal/Nocturnal split here) but honestly, I'd rather have Nocturnal back and be a toggle in battle like PvP RDM's Black/White stance.

All that said, you can pretty much delete all of AST's 70+ skills and it'd be fine. Point is, rather than removing everything I'd like to see some parts of the kit have cohesion with other parts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WHM- freecure needs to go, tetra can go, bension can go, medica 2 either needs to be given a CD or just delete medica 1
AST- critfic needs to go, synastry can go, minor arcana can go, astrodyne can go, intersection can go, exaltation can go, neutral sect should be nerfed
SGE- crit diagnosis can go, ixochole can go, soteria can go, taurochole can go, panhaima and holos can be nerfed
SCH- blessing can go, chain can go, physick can go, protraction can be baked into other buttons

---

Respectfully a lot of these are simply bad ideas to remove.

WHM: Yes, Cure 1 and medica 1 need to go. That's pretty obvious. They should trait Cure 1 > Cure 2 / Medica > Cure 3 (keep the Medica range). Both Tetra and Benison have valid uses (Snap heals, tank busters). Benison stacks with SCH Adlo

SCH in general needs a lot of work. They basically took any good idea and gave them to sage in Endwalker. Mostly in the "2 effects, 1 button" category. Right now, they need something better AOE wise and I think energy drain is the easiest to do since they're not giving back bane. Put it at 350 potency with a 50% Aoe dropoff (After the first hits for 180 each. But they definitely need to figure something out about all those fairy buttons because Sage just does every single one of them better and they're baked into other buttons. Also after playing sage, Adlo REALLY needs it's cast time reduced or eliminated.

SGE As of right now the only "bad" button is Pepsis, but they have no real identity as a "Shield healer". So many of their "shields" are just weak. For example: Taurochloe. It has a full heal and then a damage reduction. Why not have that heal be a shield? Would be a great tank buster button. Panhaima is good for aoe bleeds.

AST I'm terrible at but I know some of their buttons can be easily combined and a few just don't need to be there (undraw)

I think keeping Adlo at 2.00s cast time is fine due to the fact that we are able to consistently Critlo spread that shield whereas SGE would have to Zoe their E.Prog and burn other resources to match that same monstrosity of a party shield on top of having 0 reason of having clone 'differential diagnosis' tacked on it.

I don't want to become anymore like SGE or having the identity of "Better SGE".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Respectfully a lot of these are simply bad ideas to remove.

WHM: Yes, Cure 1 and medica 1 need to go. That's pretty obvious. They should trait Cure 1 > Cure 2 / Medica > Cure 3 (keep the Medica range). Both Tetra and Benison have valid uses (Snap heals, tank busters). Benison stacks with SCH Adlo

SCH in general needs a lot of work. They basically took any good idea and gave them to sage in Endwalker. Mostly in the "2 effects, 1 button" category. Right now, they need something better AOE wise and I think energy drain is the easiest to do since they're not giving back bane. Put it at 350 potency with a 50% Aoe dropoff (After the first hits for 180 each. But they definitely need to figure something out about all those fairy buttons because Sage just does every single one of them better and they're baked into other buttons. Also after playing sage, Adlo REALLY needs it's cast time reduced or eliminated.

SGE As of right now the only "bad" button is Pepsis, but they have no real identity as a "Shield healer". So many of their "shields" are just weak. For example: Taurochloe. It has a full heal and then a damage reduction. Why not have that heal be a shield? Would be a great tank buster button. Panhaima is good for aoe bleeds.

AST I'm terrible at but I know some of their buttons can be easily combined and a few just don't need to be there (undraw)

---

My entire point is that you can come up with niche edge cases for every healing button in the game, that doesn’t actually justify their existence, for example you can justify Pepsis by saying that if the attack only partially cracks the shield (say ifrit in UWU) then you can still Pepsis for the full heal. It is a use case but it doesn’t justify its button slot. Something like tetra is almost exactly the same, like sure it is “faster” than solace, but solace actually justifies its place in the kit because it works with the gauge and builds towards misery

Trying to retain buttons for the sole propose of the fact you can invent niche uses for them is exactly how we ended up in this situation

Also side note I’m trying to figure out which buttons you think SGE is doing better than SCH considering that SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance, you just have to press more than one; which really isn’t a downside in my eyes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

My entire point is that you can come up with niche edge cases for every healing button in the game, that doesn’t actually justify their existence, for example you can justify Pepsis by saying that if the attack only partially cracks the shield (say ifrit in UWU) then you can still Pepsis for the full heal. It is a use case but it doesn’t justify its button slot. Something like tetra is almost exactly the same, like sure it is “faster” than solace, but solace actually justifies its place in the kit because it works with the gauge and builds towards misery

Trying to retain buttons for the sole propose of the fact you can invent niche uses for them is exactly how we ended up in this situation

Also side note I’m trying to figure out which buttons you think SGE is doing better than SCH considering that SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance, you just have to press more than one; which really isn’t a downside in my eyes

---

I do argue Sch and sgn bubbles serve way different situations. Sgn bubble can be used for all and every mechs while sch bubble has a even after the range increase some range problems. (ofc it lasts 5 seconds longer because of coding). Also having the options for giving shields for the party or a single target in a movement situation is still a massive gain because we both now trusting the fairy will lead 80 % fo the time to a dead person. Plus Sgn has no dilemma with energy drain or aoe heals/bubble. Also in comparison i find sch just clunky. Like jumping through 500 hoops for almost the same dmg and healing as sgn is the same problem astro vs whm have. Why play astro and playing piano when whm does the same with no downside and way more relaxed gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

I do argue Sch and sgn bubbles serve way different situations. Sgn bubble can be used for all and every mechs while sch bubble has a even after the range increase some range problems. (ofc it lasts 5 seconds longer because of coding). Also having the options for giving shields for the party or a single target in a movement situation is still a massive gain because we both now trusting the fairy will lead 80 % fo the time to a dead person. Plus Sgn has no dilemma with energy drain or aoe heals/bubble. Also in comparison i find sch just clunky. Like jumping through 500 hoops for almost the same dmg and healing as sgn is the same problem astro vs whm have. Why play astro and playing piano when whm does the same with no downside and way more relaxed gameplay.

---

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

It's really wild to me that people still consider the choice of 'Energy Drain vs Indom/Soil' to be a dilemma when Energy Drain is just a pathetic 100 potency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's really wild to me that people still consider the choice of 'Energy Drain vs Indom/Soil' to be a dilemma when Energy Drain is just a pathetic 100 potency.

---

DPS is God, DPS is life. (◍´͈ꈊ`͈◍)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

---

This reminds me of vague thoughts I had on WHM vs. SCH. Namely, do away with the "pure" vs. "barrier" split and instead build the jobs around the following:

WHM: On the healing front, push button, wait for cast, thing happens. Jack of all trades, master of none. On the damage front, as the counterpoint BLM, deals damage directly. In okay amounts in an okay player's hands; terrifying amounts in a skilled player's hands with a skilled party.

SCH: On the healing front, some planning and assembly required. Capable of being the best at any specific task (restore HP, put up a shield, etc.), but the need to plan ahead and "assemble" skills together means you can't just button mash your way to being the best all the time. On the damage front, skilled play enables the rest of the party to take greater risks for greater damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because unlike WHM VS AST SGE VS SCH SCH wins in almost every category, higher damage, better shields, more mitigation, better utility

Sure you jump through more hoops but it’s better because of it

---

I agree in a non downtime fight sch is better yes . But in any downtime fight sch and sgn are so super close (TOP example) dps wise that i see no reason playing sch over sgn expect when you go double shield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's really wild to me that people still consider the choice of 'Energy Drain vs Indom/Soil' to be a dilemma when Energy Drain is just a pathetic 100 potency.

---

Its the sad reality that energy drain for logs is a pretty good dps gain. Like we talk about 366 dps for 73 drains in a downtime fight like top (and these people do life in the fight)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

I agree in a non downtime fight sch is better yes . But in any downtime fight sch and sgn are so super close (TOP example) dps wise that i see no reason playing sch over sgn expect when you go double shield.

---

True but downtime fights are incredibly rare, they are basically just ultimates

Also after checking i just did realize that every good sch log for this savage is just them not healing and the other healer does all healing while every sgn log is being the sage doing the most heal almost all the time. So yeah you do out dps sgn if you just use all energy drains and use them for nothing else what a fun thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

True but downtime fights are incredibly rare, they are basically just ultimates

---

like i wrote a post later every good sch log is the co healer healing all and the sch using only energy drain while the sgn logs is them almost always healing the most out of the healer duo. im pretty sure you can guess why that is the case

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

like i wrote a post later every good sch log is the co healer healing all and the sch using only energy drain while the sgn logs is them almost always healing the most out of the healer duo. im pretty sure you can guess why that is the case

---

Still whole energy drain contributes SCH isn’t remotely weak on damage even if you don’t use energy drain and if you don’t use ED then SCH is even higher than SGE on HPS

it’s a choice that offers skill ceilings to healer duos that want it, it’s not like we need both healers to have SGE’s disgusting free HPS, SCH can beat it but it has to give up damage

SGE can heal and damage. Addersgall has no dps usage. MP economy is also tied tightly to healing. Holos, Kerachole and Taurochole have built in healing and mitigation. There's no wonder how SGE will do most of the healing, even if it didn't intend to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

SGE can heal and damage. Addersgall has no dps usage. MP economy is also tied tightly to healing. Holos, Kerachole and Taurochole have built in healing and mitigation. There's no wonder how SGE will do most of the healing, even if it didn't intend to.

---

The problem is the talk about sch doing more dmg when in any normal run they both do almost the same dmg. And good sch run is padding the hell out of energy drain (his co healer does 99 heals in all of any high sch logs) while in comparison every sgn log is the sage almost always doing more heal then his co partner.

In a very specific padding situation sch does more dmg but in a full realistic situation its almost the same dmg and for the amount of hoops you have to jump through. Like if people like that i dont say anything against it its just way more effort for almost the same.

Like sgn beats sch at median 50 % almost all the time and i argue 50 % logs is a good indicator for a decent chunk of the player base. The only time sch wins these "log battles" is if the co healer does all the healing and you can use energy drain all the time. While on the other hand sgn does close dmg without losing healing and mitigations. Like we can argue and all but the most glaring difference is energy drain being a dps button for aetherflow. So in any normal setting sch will not do more dmg then sage and maybe has like a bit more utility for being super mega clunky. Like i said nothing against if people like that but saying sch does more dmg in a realistic scenario is just not true.


Edit: Even in 80 % logs does sgn beats sch in dps so no clue where the idea comes sch does in realistic situations more dmg. Like im a air plane in some specific situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

Like sgn beats sch at median 50 % almost all the time and i argue 50 % logs is a good indicator for a decent chunk of the player base. The only time sch wins these "log battles" is if the co healer does all the healing and you can use energy drain all the time. While on the other hand sgn does close dmg without losing healing and mitigations. Like we can argue and all but the most glaring difference is energy drain being a dps button for aetherflow. So in any normal setting sch will not do more dmg then sage and maybe has like a bit more utility for being super mega clunky. Like i said nothing against if people like that but saying sch does more dmg in a realistic scenario is just not true.


Edit: Even in 80 % logs does sgn beats sch in dps so no clue where the idea comes sch does in realistic situations more dmg. Like im a air plane in some specific situations.

---

It’s an rDPS job this always applies, SCH’s damage variance against SGE isn’t coming from padding on energy drain it’s coming from chain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

The problem is the talk about sch doing more dmg when in any normal run they both do almost the same dmg. And good sch run is padding the hell out of energy drain (his co healer does 99 heals in all of any high sch logs) while in comparison every sgn log is the sage almost always doing more heal then his co partner.

In a very specific padding situation sch does more dmg but in a full realistic situation its almost the same dmg and for the amount of hoops you have to jump through. Like if people like that i dont say anything against it its just way more effort for almost the same.

---

It has always been the case since ARR that the healer who has a more optimal healing rotation or whose dps rotation caps relatively low will always take hit in their dps since they lose lower while the other healer who can push higher dps is expected to do so all while supplementing the healing done by their co-healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s an rDPS job this always applies, SCH’s damage variance against SGE isn’t coming from padding on energy drain it’s coming from chain

---

Then how is sch losing in RDPS vs sgn in a 80 % log. Could be because Chain is one of the most rng based rdps gains in ff 14 history same with Litany

i take the 101 log in P11S for sch and sgn so a 80 % log. Sch does 8,076.5 rDps while sgn does 8,207.1 rDps. If chain does so much why is there a 130 dps diff on a healer that has way way way less work to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

Then how is sch losing in RDPS vs sgn in a 80 % log. Could be because Chain is one of the most rng based rdps gains in ff 14 history same with Litany

i take the 101 log in P11S for sch and sgn so a 80 % log. Sch does 8,076.5 rDps while sgn does 8,207.1 rDps. If chain does so much why is there a 130 dps diff on a healer that has way way way less work to do.

---

Because as I said rDPS jobs really only pass pDPS at very high percentiles

It’s not like SCH is working that much harder than SGE anyway, ED really isn’t as big of a factor as you are making it out to be here. SGE is always going to win in lower percentiles, that’s basically how it’s designed to work

I don't see the point in trying to show SGE having higher HPS than SCH, considering that SGE is designed in a way that almost everything they do has healing attached.

Panhaima? Got a heal. Holos? Yep, got that heal. Physis/Kerachole/Ixochole? Heals all over. Pneuma? Yep, there's that heal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't see the point in trying to show SGE having higher HPS than SCH, considering that SGE is designed in a way that almost everything they do has healing attached.

Panhaima? Got a heal. Holos? Yep, got that heal. Physis/Kerachole/Ixochole? Heals all over. Pneuma? Yep, there's that heal.

---

i was bored and used a calculator for the healing abilities with values and left normal fairy and kardia out of the entire caculation.

Sage has with all tools and no Zoe plus Pneuma 4950 healing potency and all his tools, with zoe pneuma you are at 5550 (i left out dissipation and rhizomata out of the entire math). That takes in Haima and panhaima, holos(plus shield), Physis(not the 10 % bonus heal), bubble hot and aoe heal.

Scholar has 5640 if you let the fairy use aetherpact for the entire duration. Plus i only took in one single seraph single target cast that heals 180 and gives a 180 shield into the calculation (sch would be even higher if we would count the entire duration of seraph into the caculation because its a 2 minute cd). So in short sch has if you dont use energy drain for the entire fioght and only focus on healing as minimal more healing potency on the abilities then sgn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because as I said rDPS jobs really only pass pDPS at very high percentiles

It’s not like SCH is working that much harder than SGE anyway, ED really isn’t as big of a factor as you are making it out to be here. SGE is always going to win in lower percentiles, that’s basically how it’s designed to work

---

Energy drain in TOP world logs does around 400 dps gain for sch thats 6 % total dmg from. the dot does 14 % how is that not a big factor. Like it takes minimal 5-10 mins looking up sch and sgn logs in comparison and see why sch does more dmg in like 100 % logs but not in 80 % logs (if you count 80% logs as not very high percentiles and only the start 98% as very high percentiles i really dont know what to say).

Sch in super duper niche situations does more dmg yes. But first they arent anything you can do in PF or your co healer will wanna eat you alive and not something you can do with pugs. Like pls tell me 80 % logs or 50 % log arent a good indicator for the normal pf situations. Like scholar only in 98 logs wins around with 100 dps more then sgn. But like i said if you really consider super niche

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

Its the sad reality that energy drain for logs is a pretty good dps gain. Like we talk about 366 dps for 73 drains in a downtime fight like top (and these people do life in the fight)

---

But most people aren't spending 24 min in a fight. It's usually half that. 10-12m

3 drains amounts to a single extra broil cast every minute.

woo hoo /s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

... SGE is designed in a way that almost everything they do has healing attached.

Panhaima? Got a heal. Holos? Yep, got that heal. Physis/Kerachole/Ixochole? Heals all over. Pneuma? Yep, there's that heal.

---

Good point, but they need to add a heal to Icarus IMO. I love Icarus :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

But most people aren't spending 24 min in a fight. It's usually half that. 10-12m

3 drains amounts to a single extra broil cast every minute.

woo hoo /s

---

Energy Drain

5.78% dmg and used 35

yeah so p12s phase 2 gives you 35 energy drains cast that amount to 5,78 % dmg for sch and in total 390.3 dps. Its 33 % of the entire Biolysis dmg. Like if you say stuff like this i see you dont check logs for like 5 mins before posting this in a arguement is just super hilarious.

Playing PvP Sage has shown that they don't have to bloat healers with any additonal buttons. The real problem with healers isn't that they have only 1 DPS button. It's that they have multiple DPS buttons with extremely long cooldowns, so they do very little to break up the monotony.

Simply bringing the cooldown down on buttons like Phlegma from 60 to 15 seconds does wonders. As does giving Toxicron the charges that refresh without the need to break a shield (perhaps this can simply refresh a charge instead).


If WHM got significantly more blood lillies and a proc to reset the cooldown on assize that would go a long way. While button bloat doesn't bother me, I understand people don't like it, so perhaps we can take a look at how frequently our existing buttons are pressed instead of how many buttons we have access to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

Playing PvP Sage has shown that they don't have to bloat healers with any additonal buttons. The real problem with healers isn't that they have only 1 DPS button. It's that they have multiple DPS buttons with extremely long cooldowns, so they do very little to break up the monotony.

Simply bringing the cooldown down on buttons like Phlegma from 60 to 15 seconds does wonders. As does giving Toxicron the charges that refresh without the need to break a shield (perhaps this can simply refresh a charge instead).


If WHM got significantly more blood lillies and a proc to reset the cooldown on assize that would go a long way. While button bloat doesn't bother me, I understand people don't like it, so perhaps we can take a look at how frequently our existing buttons are pressed instead of how many buttons we have access to.

---

Giving me more frequent opportunities to press utterly forgettable buttons like Phlegma and Afflatus Misery changes nothing.

The actual issue is that there's no meaningful interactivity within healer damage kits, which is devastating when encounters are on strict, predictable timelines. PvP gets away with as few buttons as it has because those few buttons are in service of interacting with utterly unpredictable players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

Energy Drain

5.78% dmg and used 35

yeah so p12s phase 2 gives you 35 energy drains cast that amount to 5,78 % dmg for sch and in total 390.3 dps. Its 33 % of the entire Biolysis dmg. Like if you say stuff like this i see you dont check logs for like 5 mins before posting this in a arguement is just super hilarious.

---

I’m still trying to figure out your argument though, ED is a factor in SCH’s damage, it’s not a big one, of SCH’s 4 methods of applying damage it’s by far the one the that contributes the least

Sure a gold parsing SCH is going to char their cohealer for ED casts but even a high green/low blue SCH is going to ED roughly half or so of their aetherflow and that’s fine because ED is designed as a dumping mechanic for excess aetherflow, chadding your co-healer causing deaths just shows you are a bad SCH, it doesn’t mean the skill itself is flawed

If you removed ED not only would you make SCH and SGE near identical in execution (as much as they are in skill design currently) you’d also send SCH’s HPS through the roof which we don’t really need

ED isn’t the problem here, SGE is

I really don't see why people always view Energy Drain as a problem. You know what the actual problem is? The fact that every other healer is loaded with absolutely free healing.

A run where a healer chads their cohealer and does the absolute minimum should not be able to result in a clear, a single healer should not be able to basically soloheal the hardest content in the game, that's the biggest issue here.

Every healer should be forced to depend on their cohealer to shore up their weaknesses. If one decides to chad the other, it should always result in a wipe.

His point is that your statement "SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance" is true only in controlled and artificial situations -- in fully optimised parsing groups

"Higher damage" is:
- when your cohealer becomes your personal healbot, ruining their own dps for you
- when every other person in your group knows what they're doing and how to optimise their cooldowns

^ something that will almost never happen in PF
He gave you the proofs which you didn't bother (or are unable) to read

Question: if scholar is better than sage in every way then why in pink/golden scholar's parses the job itself forces its cohealer to become a literal slave? Meanwhile sage is on par or even better than their cohealer in healing terms in the same pink/golden parses

As for the "better utilities": the fights are specifically designed and are pretty clearable without them. The fights are designed and are clearable with "worse shields"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m still trying to figure out your argument though, ED is a factor in SCH’s damage, it’s not a big one, of SCH’s 4 methods of applying damage it’s by far the one the that contributes the least

Sure a gold parsing SCH is going to char their cohealer for ED casts but even a high green/low blue SCH is going to ED roughly half or so of their aetherflow and that’s fine because ED is designed as a dumping mechanic for excess aetherflow, chadding your co-healer causing deaths just shows you are a bad SCH, it doesn’t mean the skill itself is flawed

If you removed ED not only would you make SCH and SGE near identical in execution (as much as they are in skill design currently) you’d also send SCH’s HPS through the roof which we don’t really need

ED isn’t the problem here, SGE is

---

About the energy drain usage I took like 3 mins and watched again some logs. And for example p10s best world sch does 36 energy drains while a log 83 person did 14. It’s funny how it’s not hard to actual see how energy drain influence scholars dmg if some one actual uses the mathematical proof people give us for free and take some time using it.


I can agree that ed is a cool idea but the problem is that 1: it’s only on one healer and we all know when there is the option for spending it on a dmg button in comparison to a heal button you wanna press the dmg option more then the heals.

2: ed as interesting as it is as a ability is still a toxic ability for a healer job. It only serving grace is 100 potency while back then at least it was a mana gain tool.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I really don't see why people always view Energy Drain as a problem. You know what the actual problem is? The fact that every other healer is loaded with absolutely free healing.

A run where a healer chads their cohealer and does the absolute minimum should not be able to result in a clear, a single healer should not be able to basically soloheal the hardest content in the game, that's the biggest issue here.

Every healer should be forced to depend on their cohealer to shore up their weaknesses. If one decides to chad the other, it should always result in a wipe.

---

Because in a vacuum it is like actual having logs were the co healer becomes the heal bot for the sch and his parse because he can use all stacks for energy drain is pretty much a good proof that ED is the problem. Because this isn’t happening in any other healer parse. Like I said the ability idea is cool the problem is that it’s on a healer. Imagine whm Lily’s had a dmg spell. Or Astro could change off heals into dmg ones. Or sgn could use stacks for 100 more potency on 1 Dosis cast per Stack.

People would actual die way more in any fight because people would use these tools for dmg and not healing.

I argue even the free healing isn’t the problem( because at the end of the day we would swap just glare for medica casts) I argue the problem is that almost all healer dmg kits are barebones and sch having the only one that gives the choice healing for dmg or vice versa. Every other healer doesn’t face this dilemma. I remember old whm we’re Lily’s we’re a dmg lose so almost no one used them except for rare cases.

Easy solution is making healer dps kits way more interactive with the healing kit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

About the energy drain usage I took like 3 mins and watched again some logs. And for example p10s best world sch does 36 energy drains while a log 83 person did 14. It’s funny how it’s not hard to actual see how energy drain influence scholars dmg if some one actual uses the mathematical proof people give us for free and take some time using it.


I can agree that ed is a cool idea but the problem is that 1: it’s only on one healer and we all know when there is the option for spending it on a dmg button in comparison to a heal button you wanna press the dmg option more then the heals.

2: ed as interesting as it is as a ability is still a toxic ability for a healer job. It only serving grace is 100 potency while back then at least it was a mana gain tool.

---

Yes and that difference of energy drain is not much about 3% of the SCH’s total damage, that still doesn’t remotely affect my point

SCH is a thoroughly good healer even without ED’s damage, it’s an optimisation mechanism that would break SCH if it got deleted, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth, it’s this mammoth thing that is destroying SCH’s balance but it is also inconsequential depending on what point you are making

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mortex

People would actual die way more in any fight because people would use these tools for dmg and not healing

---

And what's wrong with that? The hardest content in the game should very much stress your resources to the point that you can't just burn everything on damage. If you die because you ED when you should've Indom, so what? You learned something new, do better next time.

You say free healing isn't the problem and insist that SCH's choice is the problem, but absent of thie choice, every job will put out absurd healing power. The right move is to tax every job for healing, not remove the tax on the one job thats designed well.

All the free healing is precisely why all the other healers can be "chadded" in the first place. If a WHM/AST/SGE can fully heal the entire fight without losing any damage, then why would anyone care that the SCH isn't healing? Back in SB, after the AST buffs, they could soloheal savage too, it was regarded as bad design back then, but now everyone is just absolutely spoiled by free healing that they think losing damage to heal is bad design.