So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

I’m in agreement that it is fairly obvious when certain jobs aren’t performing to standard. But unsolicited advice is often unwelcome. And by level eighty if a SAM isn’t putting up their buffs and the SMN isn’t laying down their DOTs halfway into the fight then there’s not much to be done about it.

And if it’s bad enough to where tanks or healers are out dpsing a DPS - I have seen a SMN be outpaced by a Gunbreaker in Extreme - then kicking is the best solution.

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So this has always bugged me. People make the claim (a lot!) that it's easy to tell if someone's not pulling their weight. But I've never understood this. I know that when I'm playing, I'm not paying careful enough attention to what other people are doing to know if they're doing something fundamentally wrong or not. A healer not healing or a tank not tanking would be about the extent I'm able to monitor other people while still playing my own character. Certainly I could never watch, say, a SMN or something to have any idea if they're doing their rotation properly in savage, ultimate, or extreme trials. There's no possibility of that.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

So this has always bugged me. People make the claim (a lot!) that it's easy to tell if someone's not pulling their weight. But I've never understood this. I know that when I'm playing, I'm not paying careful enough attention to what other people are doing to know if they're doing something fundamentally wrong or not. A healer not healing or a tank not tanking would be about the extent I'm able to monitor other people while still playing my own character. Certainly I could never watch, say, a SMN or something to have any idea if they're doing their rotation properly in savage, ultimate, or extreme trials. There's no possibility of that.

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It's entirely possible to do. I never said it'd be easy, however. Probably is next to impossible in Ultimate though, at least in the heat of the moment. There's a lot going on there.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Even that attitude is one reason dps meters aren't allowed. Most of us don't mind one bit if the SAM dies 5 times, muddles their rotation or isn't familiar with the toolkit or rotation yet. What's important is they they're willing to learn, open to advice and trying their best. It's not a high standard, but that player has potential to be a good member of any team.

Skill level varies by player too. A moderate SAM will do less rdps than a highly skilled Dancer. But if the SAM is consistent, dodges mechanics and their damage is more than needed, it's plenty.

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In the end bare minimum for everybody, even in casual content, is not to have "I don't care, carry me" attitude. Because this is toxic and people should not be expected to make up for somebody playing badly.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

So this has always bugged me. People make the claim (a lot!) that it's easy to tell if someone's not pulling their weight. But I've never understood this. I know that when I'm playing, I'm not paying careful enough attention to what other people are doing to know if they're doing something fundamentally wrong or not. A healer not healing or a tank not tanking would be about the extent I'm able to monitor other people while still playing my own character. Certainly I could never watch, say, a SMN or something to have any idea if they're doing their rotation properly in savage, ultimate, or extreme trials. There's no possibility of that.

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It's not impossible, but I wouldn't call it 'easy' since having a firsthand experience on playing said classes may also play factor in judgment (aka knowing their kits). It's not something all players willing to do: play all/multiple classes.
I.e. 120s is a common next raid burst window in most encounter after starting a fight. If said player have played multiple classes and have some knowledge of their kits, it's quite intuitive to expect seeing the 20s, 30s, 40s, 60s, and 120s big damage button/raid buff icon coming out at this very window because they all line up perfectly at 120s mark. Not seeing one or few of them could indicate some room for more improvement or a mistake made during the heat of encounter. This is just one of the examples of course.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It's not impossible, but I wouldn't call it 'easy' since having a firsthand experience on playing said classes may also play factor in judgment (aka knowing their kits). It's not something all players willing to do: play all/multiple classes.
I.e. 120s is a common next raid burst window in most encounter after starting a fight. If said player have played multiple classes and have some knowledge of their kits, it's quite intuitive to expect seeing the 20s, 30s, 40s, 60s, and 120s big damage button/raid buff icon coming out at this very window because they all line up perfectly at 120s mark. Not seeing one or few of them could indicate some room for more improvement or a mistake made during the heat of encounter. This is just one of the examples of course.

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In theory you're right, but the fact of the matter is that I'm also in this fight, I'm also at my 120s cd window, and I have my own shit to do. If I take my attention away from playing my job to watch and see if other people are playing their jobs, then I'm failing in my duty to my party.

There's a very simple solution to this problem.. you have a tool that does it for you.. that you can analyze later in far greater detail than watching the icons blink in and out on your party frames.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

In fairness, you don't need a meter to tell when someone is underperforming. If you know how a job functions, just watching a person go about their rotation (or a lack thereof) can be enlightening. How fast or slow an enemy health bar drops can also tell a bit of a story.

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You don't need a thermometer to tell when something is hot, but it can quantify things in a way that eyeballing it cannot. What burst windows are being missed, by how much, were deaths involved, were debuffs involved, etc, are all tracked by the same program.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You don't need a thermometer to tell when something is hot, but it can quantify things in a way that eyeballing it cannot. What burst windows are being missed, by how much, were deaths involved, were debuffs involved, etc, are all tracked by the same program.

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I realize that. Just pointing out that observation is perfectly valid in the absence of an official dps meter. Maybe not for literally every piece of content, but it's good enough when the other options are zero.