If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

I havnt actually made that an argument of mine i just stated the fallacy of players that choose to blame healers for not using swiftcast. So i dont know why you are twisting this further i never made anything my right, if anyone is doing that its you. Ive stated that it is my opinion that swiftcast is not mandatory as a skill to have, which is from personal experience. and idk why you are bringing wow into this i havnt raided there so cant tell you my experiences.

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i think we can all agree that having swiftcast serves as a big advantage when raiding high end content. i would say that it is THE mandatory cross skill to have. why gimp yourself? thats a lot of burst healing/raid saving rez potential lost without it.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

I havnt actually made that an argument of mine i just stated the fallacy of players that choose to blame healers for not using swiftcast. So i dont know why you are twisting this further i never made anything my right, if anyone is doing that its you. Ive stated that it is my opinion that swiftcast is not mandatory as a skill to have, which is from personal experience. and idk why you are bringing wow into this i havnt raided there so cant tell you my experiences.

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WoW is just what I played previously is all.

Anyway go find and replace your previous posts for Swiftcast to be "watching a fight video" and you'll literally have the same thing. It's the same thing, it's as mandatory as knowing the fight. You can make up for the lack of Swiftcast and you can learn a fight after a few wipes, what's the difference? Hypothetical healer doesn't have the ability that could save the tank or bring back up the DPS who screwed, the tank and DPS didn't read a guide and don't know how to do the fight right so the tank isn't rotating cooldowns right and the DPS can't get out of the way of anything. It's the House that Jack didn't build, everyone loses.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Until we have mechanics like a guaranteed kill mechanic in a fight, [insert any cross class skill here] is just not as great as people like to make it out to be. Use it at the "wrong" time, and there is no benefit.

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I don't know if you guys realize you're making as sweeping arguments as you actually are or not. Yes it's dumb to tell a group they're failing because they don't have the food buff, but it's just the idea of best practices. If you're doing everything to succeed then you're not the problem. If your heals are letting people die, maybe a swiftcasted heal would have saved them? You guys have to at some level realize you're willfully denying the benefits of a few hours of leveling an alt class, and it's all for some esoteric anti-elitist argument that in the end rings a hollow victory because people who care will get the ability and people who don't care will just parrot your reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Add to this argument how you have to babysit a carcass, and rezzing in any battle is more of a detriment than it is a benefit.

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EDIT: Also the idea that wiping the raid or trying to do it a person down is somehow more superior than throwing out a Swiftcast res is amazing to me. It's such mental gymnastics. I mean the person could hypothetically wait out the rez sickness timer in a relatively safe spot and it still would be more beneficial than just leaving him in the dirt.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Honestly, its totally understandable for people trying out healing for the first few times. Its sad to see though so many people so adamantly against playing their own main class to it's fullest. As a War, should I not pick up provoke and flash then? Even though it makes my tanking ability go up by 110%?!?!

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Because people are acting as if it should be mandatory to have a skill used mostly for when other people screw up. If it's sad to see so many people against this it must be catastrophic to see how many people need a swiftcast res to make it through a boss fight.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

Most times ive downed content people havnt died, if they did even without swiftcast i could manage a raise. Most times due to res the dps check requirements havnt been met either way. At the end if a stupid mistake happened and we cant recover nothing stops us from trying again and mastering the fight.

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Many fights I wouldn't *need* to pull enemies off of my fellow pt members either because, hey, they can survive it. If they can't they're scrubs, amirite?

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

i think we can all agree that having swiftcast serves as a big advantage when raiding high end content. i would say that it is THE mandatory cross skill to have. why gimp yourself? thats a lot of burst healing/raid saving rez potential lost without it.

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I agree it does, but i feel if i didnt have swiftcast and eye still i would still be able to down all end game content easily, assuming im playing with competent players. I can also tell you theres a lot of players fully i90 and with all cross class skills that still cant down t5. Theres more then players can bring to the table then just their gear and skills, being a team player and having a positive attitude i would rank far above someone having all their cross class skills and gear.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Because people are acting as if it should be mandatory to have a skill used mostly for when other people screw up. If it's sad to see so many people against this it must be catastrophic to see how many people need a swiftcast res to make it through a boss fight.

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As a tank, I've never, ever had a swiftcast raise on myself save the pt from a wipe. It has, however, contributed many times to four man dungeons where a dd would die to either aoe or the healer not paying enough attention to them.
And yet again, swiftcast has many more uses than for rezing.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Because people are acting as if it should be mandatory to have a skill used mostly for when other people screw up. If it's sad to see so many people against this it must be catastrophic to see how many people need a swiftcast res to make it through a boss fight.

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It's mandatory because it makes life so much easier for a healer rather than because you need to use it for someone who messed up. Your job as healer is to save lives!

Also someone could die from:

Getting accidentally setup by other players - ie titan plumes.
Healer too slow on heals for whatever reason.

But it's not the reason that matters, it's the healers role to do everything they can to keep the party alive.

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Originally Posted by Worm

WoW is just what I played previously is all.

Anyway go find and replace your previous posts for Swiftcast to be "watching a fight video" and you'll literaloses.


I don't know if you guys realize you're making as sweeping arguments as you actually are or not. Yes it's dumb to tell a group they're failing because they don't have the foo

EDIT: Also the idea that wiping the raid or trying to do it a person down is somehow more superior than throwing out a Swiftcast res is amazing to me. It's such mental gymnastics.

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Idk why you are bringing "watch a video" now, honestly whats wrong with going to a fight and trying to figure it out yourself without being spoonfed. My friend spent recently all day in titan and ifrit after countless wipes and trying to figure out the fight without guide and he said its not most fun he had in a long time. And idk with this attitude if you wipe you lose you seem to be chasing, like my friend said its part of the journey.

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Originally Posted by Worm

WoW is just what I played previously is all.

Anyway go find and replace your previous posts for Swiftcast to be "watching a fight video" and you'll literally have the same thing. It's the same thing, it's as mandatory as knowing the fight. You can make up for the lack of Swiftcast and you can learn a fight after a few wipes, what's the difference? Hypothetical healer doesn't have the ability that could save the tank or bring back up the DPS who screwed, the tank and DPS didn't read a guide and don't know how to do the fight right so the tank isn't rotating cooldowns right and the DPS can't get out of the way of anything. It's the House that Jack didn't build, everyone loses.


I don't know if you guys realize you're making as sweeping arguments as you actually are or not. Yes it's dumb to tell a group they're failing because they don't have the food buff, but it's just the idea of best practices. If you're doing everything to succeed then you're not the problem. If your heals are letting people die, maybe a swiftcasted heal would have saved them? You guys have to at some level realize you're willfully denying the benefits of a few hours of leveling an alt class, and it's all for some esoteric anti-elitist argument that in the end rings a hollow victory because people who care will get the ability and people who don't care will just parrot your reasoning.

EDIT: Also the idea that wiping the raid or trying to do it a person down is somehow more superior than throwing out a Swiftcast res is amazing to me. It's such mental gymnastics. I mean the person could hypothetically wait out the rez sickness timer in a relatively safe spot and it still would be more beneficial than just leaving him in the dirt.

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Maybe a swiftcast heal would have saved them. But then the guy next to him dies, and all the sudden you don't have a swiftcast rez. Seen it happen a lot. My post declares people should get it. I am not denying the benefits. But I am not so naive to treat it like a game changing spell. It isn't. Why? Because there aren't any mechanics in the game that can't be navigated without it. That's why.

And sorry, there aren't many fights where there is a safe spot to wait out for anything. And that 1min you're not doing anything in a safe spot is what kind of benefit? Stay dead. Watch the fight. See what you did wrong. Don't do it again. Won't need a rez. Sorry, but rezzing someone is a complete waste of mana and usually time because that person NEEDS a new Protection, almost surely HAS TO HAVE a stoneskin to survive, and then you have to heal them ASAP or they die again. All that time you're spending on that carcass is time you're not spending healing someone else who might die. That's time you're spending focusing on that one target which could cause you to die due to missing an important mechanic.

Don't get me wrong. I always rez. But, it's such a waste of time and mana, so no, I am not all too eager to get swiftcast. I will do it eventually. Just not in a hurry, and no one has made a compelling argument as to why I should do it now. Feel free and not take me on your runs because I am a "lazy player who can't play my class because I didn't min/max according to the science other people discussed in a forum and blah blah blah." I'm still getting content down. I don't need elitism anymore than I need a spear to the throat.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

As a tank, I've never, ever had a swiftcast raise on myself save the pt from a wipe. It has, however, contributed many times to four man dungeons where a dd would die to either aoe or the healer not paying enough attention to them.
And yet again, swiftcast has many more uses than for rezing.

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True, but I can't think of any situations where it can be used outside of a res where it was needed. Assuming everyone is doing thier jobs correctly. It's very useful to have but you can't deny it's mostly used when someone get's one shotted or at least took a huge hit in HP that they could have avoided and didn't. If anything is holding your group back it's that you keep needing to res these guys who constantly get knocked out of the fight, it's a complete waste of the healers mana, which should be primarily be used on unavoidable damage, mostly healing the tank. If your serious about endgame sure it's very helpful, but not needed.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Because people are acting as if it should be mandatory to have a skill used mostly for when other people screw up. If it's sad to see so many people against this it must be catastrophic to see how many people need a swiftcast res to make it through a boss fight.

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And if his tanking ability goes up by 110% having provoke and flash... well... he was tanking at 0% to begin with. Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

Many fights I wouldn't *need* to pull enemies off of my fellow pt members either because, hey, they can survive it. If they can't they're scrubs, amirite?

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There's a difference between playing your role and getting all the abilities open to you. Huge difference. You're comparing apples to space turds.

If you can tank w/o provoke and flash, then I have more respect for you than if you have to have those abilities to do your role. I will have more info on this when I cap my warrior. At this point, I have flash on my bar, but I am not having to use it. We shall see....

i see this thing kinda similar to gear check.

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Originally Posted by Doo

It's mandatory because it makes life so much easier for a healer rather than because you need to use it for someone who messed up. Your job as healer is to save lives!

Also someone could die from:

Getting accidentally setup by other players - ie titan plumes.
Healer too slow on heals for whatever reason.

But it's not the reason that matters, it's the healers role to do everything they can to keep the party alive.

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Your job as a healer is to avoid damage to youself where you can and heal the party when it is needed.

Your job as a dps is to avoid damage where you can, stay alive, watch your threat levels, and output the most damage.

Your job as a tank is to hold the targets, reduce damage where you can and avoid it where possible as well.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

There's a difference between playing your role and getting all the abilities open to you. Huge difference. You're comparing apples to space turds.

If you can tank w/o provoke and flash, then I have more respect for you than if you have to have those abilities to do your role. I will have more info on this when I cap my warrior. At this point, I have flash on my bar, but I am not having to use it. We shall see....

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What? As a war, having flash and provoke pretty much makes the job. I flash on a pull, overpower to keep em on me, if its a huge pull I'll *need* and I mean *NEED* flash to keep enemies on me and not have to risk dd getting ganked or my tp being drained to useless levels. I mean dang, I can tank fairly easily without defiance and shield oath or w/e, and without flashing or overpower, so does that mean I should never, ever use it? It sure does by your warped logic.

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Originally Posted by Amyas

What? As a war, having flash and provoke pretty much makes the job. I flash on a pull, overpower to keep em on me, if its a huge pull I'll *need* and I mean *NEED* flash to keep enemies on me and not have to risk dd getting ganked or my tp being drained to useless levels. I mean dang, I can tank fairly easily without defiance and shield oath or w/e, and without flashing or overpower, so does that mean I should never, ever use it? lol

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Like I said, I am only level 24 MRD right now. We shall see. I have flash. I just rarely have to use it. That could be a lower level thing. But, just to prove a point, I am going to avoid using it as much as possible to see if I can tank fine using just my skillset. It's something I do. If I am wrong, I will use the X-class skills.

And if you don't need to use everything to do the job, then don't? I mean, that's part of doing it right. Save that TP for the moments you need it.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Your job as a healer is to avoid damage to youself where you can and heal the party when it is needed.

Your job as a dps is to avoid damage where you can, stay alive, watch your threat levels, and output the most damage.

Your job as a tank is to hold the targets, reduce damage where you can and avoid it where possible as well.

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I guess if you just want to do the bare minimum.

Healers get Swiftcast or go botanist =/

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Like I said, I am only level 24 MRD right now. We shall see. I have flash. I just rarely have to use it. That could be a lower level thing. But, just to prove a point, I am going to avoid using it as much as possible to see if I can tank fine using just my skillset. It's something I do. If I am wrong, I will use the X-class skills.

And if you don't need to use everything to do the job, then don't? I mean, that's part of doing it right. Save that TP for the moments you need it.

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Flash doesn't have a cooldown timer, it's only limitation is your MP. Swiftcast and provoke both do, and both are situationally useful but should not be needed except for mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Flash doesn't have a cooldown timer, it's only limitation is your MP. Swiftcast and provoke both do, and both are situationally useful but should not be needed except for mistakes.

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He said flash OR OVERPOWER in the statement I replied to. :)

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Your job as a healer is to avoid damage to youself where you can and heal the party when it is needed.

Your job as a dps is to avoid damage where you can, stay alive, watch your threat levels, and output the most damage.

Your job as a tank is to hold the targets, reduce damage where you can and avoid it where possible as well.

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i never go into a fight not expecting some wtf moments to happen. lots of reasons, shoddy net, loss of focus, someone falling asleep. okay maybe not the last one but u know what i mean. Unless u have a really uber party that never makes any mistakes then yeah, you can do with the bare minimums. but its not the case most of the time. it's a very optimistic way to look at things, but not very practical. look at it this way, why do we even bother to gear ourselves when we can make it with much2 less?

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Healers get Swiftcast or go botanist =/

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This is exactly why people are not inclined to do anything as a result of these discussions. What you mean to say is "I couldn't do it without this FOTM skill, and neither can you, because I know all the things, and there are no players better than me." Never mind the fact that most people with these types of sentiments got them off of FF14 reddit, or some other strategy discussion post. They're doing it because some "pro" elitist said to.

Wanna play basketball like Michael Jordan? Go buy some Air Jordans or just play hopscotch.

Hay guys can I come tank coil on my WAR? I haven't unlocked Provoke yet.

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Wanna play basketball like Michael Jordan? Go buy some Air Jordans or just play hopscotch.

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If you're talking about Basketball Shoes vs. Sandals then the difference is quite substantial.

Someone else mentioned it but this is very similar to gearing. You wouldn't purposely gimp yourself by not upgrading your gear. Why would you purposely gimp yourself by not getting the xclass skills that make your class more useful and powerful? Unless of course you just don't know, then that's what this thread is for.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

If you're talking about Basketball Shoes vs. Sandals then the difference is quite substantial.

Someone else mentioned it but this is very similar to gearing. You wouldn't purposely gimp yourself by not upgrading your gear. Why would you purposely gimp yourself by not getting the xclass skills that make your class more useful and powerful?

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You get gear as you get gear. Look at all the QQ threads about that issue. This debate is more like "LFM Titan HM, must have +1."

Like I said, people should plan to get the skills that will benefit them, and this is one. But it's not mandatory, and probably isn't going to be a game changer more than 1% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

why do we even bother to gear ourselves when we can make it with much2 less?

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You have to have something to play for right? Why not new shiny gear? Anyways of course mistakes happen but if your serious about endgame content you can't make them all the time and expect others to carry your weight. Yes I believe all healers should have swiftcast but if I'm in a party with a good healer who doesn't have it I'm not going to say a thing about it, because there wasn't a situation where it was honestly ever needed. Yeah you screwed up and died our healer doesn't have swiftcast who's fault is that? Who is holding back the party more? Likely the person who needed it in the first place, who would likely have just died again later in the fight because they still haven't learned to avoid damage but instead they can rely on people to carry them when they screw up.

The whole game is based on multi-class and the cross Class abilities. You can't go and pretend that is fine attempt the end game content without get as many tools as you can, I told it for the healers because this thread is about them but the same is for tanks and DDs.
You can go and do it without Swiftcast? Yes, you can. BUT you are putting pressure on your party for something that is your work and you should have and should be using... that's all

/agree with everything people have been saying about swiftcast not being required. I only use it when someone else has screwed up and 90% of the time I swiftcast rez, the person doesn't even realize or bother taking it. it's helpful to have when you have people under performing, but it's barely ever used as I have better things to do than waste mana on the ones that constantly die.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

Flash doesn't have a cooldown timer, it's only limitation is your MP. Swiftcast and provoke both do, and both are situationally useful but should not be needed except for mistakes.

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Swiftcast allows you to use cast faster overall, whether you're running the role of dps or healer, because you can regularly cast a spell instantly that would take longer otherwise, be it a Medica or whatnot. And good luck tank swapping or peeling enmity without Provoke.

Please stop making up excuses like "these abilities are only good for mistakes."

It's weaksauce, and the only excuse for not having them after a certain point in time is laziness.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

The whole game is based on multi-class and the cross Class abilities. You can't go and pretend that is fine attempt the end game content without get as many tools as you can, I told it for the healers because this thread is about them but the same is for tanks and DDs.
You can go and do it without Swiftcast? Yes, you can. BUT you are putting pressure on your party for something that is your work and you should have and should be using... that's all

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I am putting what pressure on my party? I just don't get it. I just don't see it. So when I get swiftcast and we start winning everything because I have swiftcast, do I get to take full credit for us winning, even if I never used it? Players thinking it should be mandatory is the issue. Someone spends all that time getting their character to 50 and they're told they need to level several other classes before they can play.

still find it interesting people are dodging the fact that you can raise without swiftcast. Ive cleric stanced and dps'd in every encounter in the game to my knowledge, so why wouldnt i be able to battle res normally?

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Originally Posted by Moirear

It's weaksauce, and the only excuse for not having them after a certain point in time is laziness.

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I love Puritan sentiments in a video game. This is a game. Not a job. People need to realize that first.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

still find it interesting people are dodging the fact that you can raise without swiftcast. Ive cleric stanced and dps'd in every encounter in the game to my knowledge, so why wouldnt i be able to battle res normally?

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And those people who have to have swiftcast to rez seem to more often than not be unable to cast it without a swiftcast up. Just one of my observations.

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Originally Posted by Brises

Why shouldn't you attempt it? It's not like the world is going to end if you try and fail. It's a game after all. That's how you learn. Swiftcast is definitely good to have, but when I hit 50, no way I'm going to wait for another 26 levels before trying endgame.

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I'm sure the people in your raid will appreciate your unpreparedness.

Make sure to also never use food because it's useless.

Heck, why cast cure at all? People have potions.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

He said flash OR OVERPOWER in the statement I replied to. :)

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Eh missed that. Anyways tanking abilities used to keep a higher aggro are used every fight, though you could possibly manage without them assuming everyone else was doing less damage deliberatly then the tank, would make for some long fights I'm sure, if a timer was involved forget it. A healer has all the tools they need to keep a party alive without swiftcast. I can see how flash could be considered a requirement for any tank seeing how often it's useful though.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

You get gear as you get gear. Look at all the QQ threads about that issue. This debate is more like "LFM Titan HM, must have +1."

Like I said, people should plan to get the skills that will benefit them, and this is one. But it's not mandatory, and probably isn't going to be a game changer more than 1% of the time.

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nah, this thread is about u gimping ur healer without swiftcast :) just get it. doesnt even take that long. i dont know why u guys are so adamant about getting this lvl 26 cross skill. kinda trivial to get such a useful skill

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Originally Posted by Hitome

I'm sure the people in your raid will appreciate your unpreparedness.

Make sure to also never use food because it's useless.

Heck, why cast cure at all? People have potions.

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Nah, why don't you all grab cure instead.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

A healer has all the tools they need to keep a party alive without swiftcast.

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Yep - /thread - if swiftcast is needed, its part of the event's mechanics, not because someone may mess up

I am clueless here... fresh 50 yes, it's okay you can go without any cross class do wp/ak just fine, but you can go with all the tools that you have Swiftcast/raise-protect-medica-cure2/3-stoneskin-holy why you don't want to have it?
Also if you want to do some difficult endgame like coil good look without your cross class abilities...

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

I love Puritan sentiments in a video game. This is a game. Not a job. People need to realize that first.

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We're talking about endgame because that's the only point where any of this matters, and getting cross-class skills for your "main" job is not a huge timesink. Maxing all the jobs or endgame are huge timesinks. By design MMORPGs are usually huge timesinks. "This is a game, not a job" is just another way of saying you don't actually enjoy this kind of game or the game is too repetitive somehow for your taste, only when someone is pointing out that you're gimping yourself for not putting some extra time into something that would increase your efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

I love Puritan sentiments in a video game. This is a game. Not a job. People need to realize that first.

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Oh boy here comes the "it's just a video game" jib. If that is the case I'm sure you don't mind being denied teams and content for not being a team player, shouldn't upset you at all.

Literally the only people i have encountered in game who insist you don't need swiftcast are healers who don't have swiftcast. Majority rules so bring to the table what people expect.

"oh man I have to put in effort like everyone else in the group and not just the bare minimum?", find a group that wants to play with someone with that attitude.