Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by xyaie

Just tested it, you cannot replace an IR DoT with a non IR DoT.

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xyaie! I expected more from you, you should already know this!

I am disappoint

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

IR also causes DoT clipping.

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Hmm, good point, and I'm personally too lazy to hold my IR to time it with the BFB. <quick analysis>. It would also be either even on average DPS or a tiny loss on DPS to hold the IR to time it with BFB as well.

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This has extended the gap between the 2nd and 3rd H/P to 11 abilities, costing you an added 2 GCDs where both HT and Phlebotomize are missing.

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You came up with it; I only noted that it's similar to the original one and performs better.

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It's too bad the game won't let you clip buffed DOTs. It's actually moderately annoying.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

You came up with it; I only noted that it's similar to the original one and performs better.

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Except mine don't have large gaps between HT/Phlebotomize in the middle of your rotation. The end of the rotation isn't as important since you are less likely to loop back around considering boss mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Except mine don't have large gaps between HT/Phlebotomize in the middle of your rotation. The end of the rotation isn't as important since you are less likely to loop back around considering boss mechanics.

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I'm not gonna pursue this tangent. It's exactly what you posted except starting at a different point in the rotation to be more legible.

More relevant to the discussion, injecting the F to each IDC (or anywhere else in the rotation tbh):

H IDCF P TTT H TTT
P IDCF H TTT P TTT

Is still leading until you hit a 2.3s GCD (+200 skill speed, supposedly, or a combo of less skill speed and team buffs; IIRC a scholar has a SS buff).

At the 2.3s GCD, the other adjustment you mentioned leads (although I would use the F and P together, rather than H and F, but it doesn't matter):

HF IDC P TTT HF TTT
P IDC HF TTT P TTT

Note that it is generally similar to, but does slightly more damage than:

HFP IDC TTT
HFP TTT IDC
HFP TTT TTT

Because of better buff timing.


Edit:

So the real question here is how realistic is it to hit a 2.3s GCD.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

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I'm glad we (for once) kind of sort of agree on something. I think.

I think we mostly agree in general except on the concept of looping.

And the part where you randomly throw in irrelevant arguments like "you could randomly disengage at X point in the fight that is detrimental to rotation A, even though I fail to mention all the Y points in rotation B where a random disengage would be terrible as well".

You also have to remember the proficiency and timing of the off-GCD jumps, as they will add 0.3s-0.5s (or even more if used after the incorrect skills). In a boss fight this could push back your GCD enough for one full rotation with just a single fracture so CT doesn't clip.

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Originally Posted by Zenmaku

You also have to remember the proficiency and timing of the off-GCD jumps, as they will add 0.3s-0.5s (or even more if used after the incorrect skills). In a boss fight this could push back your GCD enough for one full rotation with just a single fracture so CT doesn't clip.

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With movement Jumps are sufficient, but since you can override your CT buffs by ~2s on static fights they are not enough on their own. I do mention this in my post on the previous page.

No one's going to eyeball their timing down to the second with OGCD jumps to make sure CT doesn't clip while spamming attacks 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

No one's going to eyeball their timing down to the second with OGCD jumps to make sure CT doesn't clip while spamming attacks 100% of the time.

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Personally I always eyeball the debuffs that are currently on the boss to keep track of what's going on (because often we have to spend a lot of time disengaging to engage adds etc). The rotation itself is just muscle memory, so keeping track of the timers would seem pretty natural for anyone proficient enough in their rotation. If I end up on CT and there are still a couple of seconds left I literally just pause my attack for 1-2 seconds (or I throw in an extra off-GCD like stacking IR + BFB back to back).

*shrugs* works for me, I haven't had any issue with DoTs clipping each other.

Pausing for 1.0 sec is a DPS loss greater than any rotation change.

In addition, when you eyeball the debuff timer versus your attack execution, you need to accurately compensate for the animation of the CT (e.g. the debuff is not applied exactly when you press the button), and you need to theoretically do so 3 GCDs before the event (e.g. you need to estimate whether or not your CT will clip before you use ID, based on the usage of Jump and delaying the train of GCDs).

Just change the rotation an' prez teh buttonz.

*If you're already in the situation where you've used DE then yeah, you don't have much choice other than to fill the 1s gap with a DFD or SSD or something, but from an optimization perspective, you don't want to be in that position in the first place.

Edit:

Someone make SE enable DOT clipping regardless of DOT strength.

There is a lot they could stand to do with DoTs honestly.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Pausing for 1.0 sec is a DPS loss greater than any rotation change.

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Are you joking?

So you are saying that NOT pausing for 1.0 seconds and NOT applying CT DoT which is 200 potency is better?
When it's time to hit the combo, you don't have a choice, you either wait to be able to use CT or use it and not apply the DoT on the enemy. The ONLY thing you can do in that delay is use off-GCD abilities. There is no other option.

If you change the rotation, you also risk the other problem that you were discussing of not always having all the DoTs on the enemies at any given time.
I seriously doubt you can calculate this perfectly to account for the inconsistencies of our GCD delay from Jumps and server lag etc. Do not even try to pull out math here, it doesn't work when facing those inconsistencies. The ONLY thing you can do is wait that extra second or not have the 200 potency DoT applied and decide not to wait.

EasyMode, just stop pulling out the numbers all the time, as a fellow lategame DRG you know just as well as all of us that it NEVER works like that because of many factors (sometimes you just cant move to the flank of the enemy because an AOE circle is placed on top). In order to play this class effectively you HAVE to eyeball, HAVE to adjust for inconsistencies, and just use your rotation the best you can in the meantime

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Originally Posted by Zenmaku

So you are saying that NOT pausing for 1.0 seconds and NOT applying CT DoT which is 200 potency is better?

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No, I'm saying that you should have used a Fracture before you used the ID - DE - CT that preceded the "I need to wait 1 second" event. As I said, if you end up in that event anyways, you can use something like a DFD that burns that 1.0 second on meaningful DPS instead of just waiting. Not optimal, but at least it mitigates half of the wasted time.

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you HAVE to eyeball, HAVE to adjust for inconsistencies, and just use your rotation the best you can in the meantime

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Those are the exceptions to the baseline rule.

Rough BIS list:

Allagan:

Boots, Bracelet, Earring, Leggings, Ring1, Ring2

Myth:

Belt, Chest, Gloves, Necklace, Weapon (Relic+1)

Analysis based on taking the stat weights, assigning all the gear their values, then finding what [non-acc] -> [acc] gear slots lost the least value per point of acc gained. That item spread should land at 466 acc. I don't have info on how materia fits into the HQ crafted though. That may impact the Ring, in addition to the option of adding Vitality to the ring which could be useful as a separate option.

Edit: Stats taken from xivdb.

Edit2: Most of the slots were close. The only outliers were the Belt (get the Myth belt over Allagan for sure) and the Bracelet (use Allagan / buy Myth last). Boots also leaned towards Allagan a moderate amount.

just a note

bfb buffed dots have higher priority than ir buffed dots, not sure with HT since that should be up 90-100% of the time anyway

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Rough BIS list:

Allagan:

Boots, Bracelet, Earring, Leggings, Ring1, Ring2

Myth:

Belt, Chest, Gloves, Necklace, Weapon (Relic+1)

Analysis based on taking the stat weights, assigning all the gear their values, then finding what [non-acc] -> [acc] gear slots lost the least value per point of acc gained. That item spread should land at 466 acc. I don't have info on how materia fits into the HQ crafted though. That may impact the Ring, in addition to the option of adding Vitality to the ring which could be useful as a separate option.

Edit: Stats taken from xivdb.

Edit2: Most of the slots were close. The only outliers were the Belt (get the Myth belt over Allagan for sure) and the Bracelet (use Allagan / buy Myth last). Boots also leaned towards Allagan a moderate amount.

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Does this take into account the head slots? I know the mythology one has a stupid amount of accuracy

I just want to say thanks to Ayvar in here. I wasn't able to play the game for the longest time because of Digital Download being held back. I pretty much learned how to play my Lancer (soon dragoon) before I was even able to play :)

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Does this take into account the head slots? I know the mythology one has a stupid amount of accuracy

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Yeah, but switching to Myth (acc) from Allagan (no acc) also loses 21 crit. The weight cost per acc gained is -0.159 which is slightly worse than the middle pieces which are around -0.14 through -0.149.

E.g. switching from Myth Gloves (no acc) to Allagan (acc) loses 15 skill speed, which is -0.146 value per acc.

After fiddling around a bit I made a second set which is nearly identical in overall dps stat weight (1 less out of 618), but has 4 more acc:

A: boots, bracelet, earring, gloves, helm, leggings, ring1 (16acc)
M: belt, chest, neck, weapon, ring
[470 acc total]

As opposed to the one I listed earlier:

A: boots, bracelet, earring, helm, leggings, ring1, ring2
M: belt, chest, gloves, neck, weapon
[466 acc]

Edit:

I've ported the data to google docs. Download / export from there to manipulate and look at the gear combinations.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...LVWhiT2c#gid=0

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

As opposed to the one I listed earlier:

A: boots, bracelet, earring, helm, leggings, ring1, ring2
M: belt, chest, gloves, neck, weapon
[466 acc]

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Ah, so the original groups had the helm from the Allagan set. It was just that your first post didn't have helm anywhere at all. Thanks!

Oh I forgot to list it. That's what I get for manually copying stuff off a poorly-formatted sheet. Ugh.

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Originally Posted by himehime

in regards to contribution to DRG rotations - generally i have an issue with clipping chaos thrust. basically, if i apply a buff chaos thrust, in most rotations there will be 1-2s left on it before reapplication, and of course you can't overwrite a stronger buffed DoT with a weaker one. it's quite annoying @@

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Easy move here : fracture and jump. Don't use a jump if the thing that buff it is off cooldown, like, never, and for any other purpose than that on a long boss fight

I have been keeping up with this thread and I have not seen any mention of the server wide dot ticking mechanic. If this has already been mentioned I apologize, but I think it is relevant to the DOT Usage/Clipping Discussion.

All Dots in this Game Tick at the same exact time. Its like a server side DOT GCD of 3 seconds. So every Dot on the server "Pulses" at the same time.

So....

If you apply a DOT debuff at .5 sec into the Servers DOT GCD, the first tick will not happen for another 2.5 seconds.

The same situation will apply to the last tick of that same DOT. The Final Tick will happen and there will be window of 2.5 seconds where your debuff has fallen off, but you have not actually missed any potential DOT ticks. Applying the DOT debuff before the 2.5 would still ensure 100% uptime.

This can also work the other way, if a DOT is applied just before the Servers DOT GCD pulse, your debuff could be visible on the target for 2+ seconds, but the final Tick has already landed. So you Could reapply the DOT Debuff early without actually clipping.


Currently it is nearly impossible to track this pulse (set up a metronome?)... but in the future we may be able to create an addon that would impact our rotation.

There's something more about the dots and I think I kinda figured why FFXIV App is actually not able to track them down "properly", and instead doin a physical damage interpretation of.

Hint : a clue is in that sentence

Did anyone try to see if dots are hittin harder when you use a higher value of determination ? if yes its just a separated physical damage added to your attacks when you manage to land them when the dot(s) tick.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

There's something more about the dots and I think I kinda figured why FFXIV App is actually not able to track them down "properly", and instead doin a physical damage interpretation.

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The parsers can not properly determine DOT damage because the combat logs do not include DOT damage, they only show that the Debuff has been applied. The damage is not actually recorded thus parsers have to estimate damage done.

I don't believe this is a coincidence, it is tied to the way DOTs tick (explained in my post above). The actual damage is done every 3 seconds on the server side when/if it registers the applied Debuff.

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Originally Posted by Rystet

The same situation will apply to the last tick of that same DOT. The Final Tick will happen and there will be window of 2.5 seconds where your debuff has fallen off, but you have not actually missed any potential DOT ticks. Applying the DOT debuff before the 2.5 would still ensure 100% uptime.

This can also work the other way, if a DOT is applied just before the Servers DOT GCD pulse, your debuff could be visible on the target for 2+ seconds, but the final Tick has already landed. So you Could reapply the DOT Debuff early without actually clipping.

Currently it is nearly impossible to track this pulse (set up a metronome?)... but in the future we may be able to create an addon that would impact our rotation.

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I think the reason there hasn't been much discussion on the subject is that it is completely out of our control. As you say, we may be able to do something to account for it later, but at the moment there's nothing we can do.

As for being able to reapply the DoT, even if it is done ticking, the DoT debuff is still registered as being on the mob, so an unbuffed DoT will still not overwrite a buffed DoT even if the buffed DoT has ticked already in the final 3s of its duration. You must wait for the DoT debuff on the mob to completely disappear before even casting the next DoT.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

As for being able to reapply the DoT, even if it is done ticking, the DoT debuff is still registered as being on the mob, so an unbuffed DoT will still not overwrite a buffed DoT even if the buffed DoT has ticked already in the final 3s of its duration. You must wait for the DoT debuff on the mob to completely disappear before even casting the next DoT.

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Absolutely, that particular situation will only apply to non buffed DOT's.

But the point is there will almost always be some time Left on the Debuff after the final tick has been applied. The actual amount of time remaining could be anywhere from .1 to 2.9 seconds. So when factoring Rotations, and attempting to not Clip any DOTS (not just buffed ones) it is worthy of note that we have a bit of wiggle room.

On avg there will be a 1.5 sec gap between the final tick and the debuff falling off. Even if we play it safe and dont take the chance of factoring anything over 1 or .5... This could slightly change how we look at Skill Speed in relation to some of the suggested rotations.

So, this afternoon I was testing my Burst rotation that I use to go full burn for adds or to quickly burn down a boss and figured I would toss a str potion into the mix. Since I never tried using one in my rotation before I noticed something funny about its interaction with rotations and how it has to be used efficiently. Anyone else take note of this?

Has accuracy been tested? Is it possible to hit a true 100% accuracy in XIV? I ask this because in XI the cap was 95%.

I appreciate this thread, helping me be a better dragoon. Now only 13 levels to go til 50.

This DoT clipping issue is the exact reason why I only ever use my DoTs with BfB/IR still up. After I've popped BfB/IR I do 1 full burst rotation, then a Thrust Rotation, then go back to HT > Dots.

Can I also ask why people like using PL/FR BEFORE CT rotation? Wouldn't the Disembowl -10% Reduction also effect the ATTACKS of the PL/FR, giving a slight DPS increase?

**Note**, DoT's aren't affected by -resists. Unless someone else has done conclusive and thorough testing stating otherwise, from what I've seen, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by KomaErada

So, this afternoon I was testing my Burst rotation that I use to go full burn for adds or to quickly burn down a boss and figured I would toss a str potion into the mix. Since I never tried using one in my rotation before I noticed something funny about its interaction with rotations and how it has to be used efficiently. Anyone else take note of this?

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Easy answered this one a couple pages back, but essentially STR potions don't do much at all.

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Has accuracy been tested? Is it possible to hit a true 100% accuracy in XIV? I ask this because in XI the cap was 95%.

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I'm above 470 and never miss in Coil, and misses are very obvious as a Dragoon since it completely screws our rotation. I'm also not saying the accuracy cap is 470, it's probably somewhere in the 455-470 range, but you can definitely get 100% accuracy. Dragoons would be screaming bloody murder if we were guaranteed to always miss 5% of our abilities.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

This DoT clipping issue is the exact reason why I only ever use my DoTs with BfB/IR still up. After I've popped BfB/IR I do 1 full burst rotation, then a Thrust Rotation, then go back to HT > Dots.

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Its simple enough to account for DoT clipping with a decent rotation and some movement mechanics in the fight. Dropping DoTs (particularly Phelbotomize) when you don't have both BFB and IR is most certainly a dps loss.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Can I also ask why people like using PL/FR BEFORE CT rotation? Wouldn't the Disembowl -10% Reduction also effect the ATTACKS of the PL/FR, giving a slight DPS increase?

**Note**, DoT's aren't affected by -resists. Unless someone else has done conclusive and thorough testing stating otherwise, from what I've seen, it doesn't.

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There are a couple ways to answer this one. You can use the IDC combo prior to your HFP, all it does is frameshift the rotation so it doesn't really change that much if you want to stick IDC first. There are also personal reasons. I like to get my DoTs ticking as soon as possible, and as you say DoTs aren't affected by -resist so you don't really care about getting Disembowel up prior to your DoT applications. Also, my process of popping IR/BFB usually goes something like:

HT-IR-Fr-BFB-Ph-ID-Dis-CT

IR is popped first because if you use BFB in that position it can come off before Full Thrust if you have to move (and you really want to hit BFB and Full Thrust together), and you don't care if IR comes off prior to Full Thrust since it's on the same cd as Life Surge anyway, which you'll be using on that Full thrust for a 100% crit and so doesn't matter if its modified by IR. This also ensures the strongest abilities are affected by both IR and BFB, as well as ensuring you'll hit your Full Thrust with BFB still active. This is also why I tend to use Fracture before Phlebotomize, despite Phlebotomize being higher priority.

If you did it this way:

ID-IR-Dis-BFB-CT-HT-Fr-Ph

You'd miss the BFB bonus on ID and Dis, which are stronger abilities than HT/Fr.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Easy answered this one a couple pages back, but essentially STR potions don't do much at all.

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Did I? Don't remember, so many pages of this thread XD. IIRC str pots get up to the 50 str range, so that's a decent chunk. Maybe 10% damage for the duration? Only worth it for rare progression cases ... ? 10% isn't huge. They also conflict with the heal potion/elixir cooldowns IIRC.

Is it better to just go more crit over determination ?
Because you will do more damage overall?

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Easy answered this one a couple pages back, but essentially STR potions don't do much at all.

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Oh I must have missed it then, but yea potions breaking combo and also giving such a small boost almost don't warrant you making a spot in your rotation for them. With 15 secs I decided to throw it after HT to get a full TTT combo into Jump for maxium damage in that 15 secs or whenever I Limit break. For a mega str pot I noticed the damage increase was around 50, so yea Its not huge and still a rather expensive investment for merely 15 secs. Full buff the combo was something with Full Thrust doing 9xx with all buffs going and Jump 6xx and then the potion falling off. I only noted those two since they are our biggest nukes when buffed and I wanted to see if I could break 1k with just relic and no DL.

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Originally Posted by rweezy

Is it better to just go more crit over determination ?
Because you will do more damage overall?

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Judging from the stat weights every point of Determination is worth 30% more than Crit.

I searched the thread for posts about interruptions in the rotation and I still don't quite understand how to salvage broken rotations. Let's say I just reapplied HT but get interrupted before I can finish IDC. Three seconds later I'm back in it and I apply IDC and Ph, but now I only have ~2 GCD cycles before HT falls off. Whatever, I do my TTT combo and reapply HT, now I have just two GCD cycles before Ph falls off... Am I missing something, or will this rotation never go back to the nice clean one laid out in this thread?

Hmm, good question. Couple general observations:

1. Always finish your chains.
2. It's ok to clip HT. Not a big deal.
3. It's ok to clip PH or CT, as long as you successfully clip (e.g. you're not attempting to clip a buffed dot with an unbuffed dot, which will fail).
4. It's ok to drop the HT buff for a short period. Your DPS will not tank from 1-4 GCDs without the 10% damage.

The biggest thing that will sustain your DPS through random events happening is to keep steady and continue executing every GCD. The main things that will tank your DPS is failing combos and missing positionals.

Edit:

So basically pick a point in the rotation where you want to start it up again (and it doesn't reaaally matter where), and gogogo.

Cool, thanks for the clarification. If I understand you right, it's okay to pick a point in the rotation after being interrupted and start from there, even if I clip a DOT or buff? What I was doing in interrupted-rotation situations was trying to re-up buffs and DOTs as soon as they fall off (while finishing combos, of course), but I found it difficult to keep track of all of them in movement heavy fights where I'm trying not to get gibbed as well. :D

not sure if anyone has asked this and I didn't see it when I was reading through the other posts, has anyone heard anything about Dragoons not being able to need on some heavy armor and losing out to greed rolls or even the tanks on new gear?