Tanks holding fights hostage in Roulettes

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You still cannot leave the instance as a party member is in combat

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Please fix fhis SE and ty.

Because we could allow the problem to persist and just keep seeing threads like this more and more over time or we could just implement the trivial line of code and fix it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You still cannot leave the instance as a party member is in combat

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Not true. The other day while leveling DRG, the PLD was holding everyone hostage on the first boss of Amaurot(SGE died around the 70% mark, DNC died shortly after, and then I just followed the meteors around to get myself killed). PLD kept going while we waited outside the arena for him to die and reset...both the SGE and DNC were using skills thinking they were helping the tank somehow. After 5 minutes I just left the instance.

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Originally Posted by Asako

If it's not your first time and you are constantly dying to the easiest of mechanics that have been drilled into you then why should the rest of the party have to put up with it? It's getting beyond a joke now watching players die to the most basic of attacks then rush to the forums to complain that the content is too hard.

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How many times must it be drilled into you that 90% of deaths isn't even your own fault. Please tell me how you're supposed to prevent dying to a raidwide because the healers are dead?

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

How many times must it be drilled into you that 90% of deaths isn't even your own fault. Please tell me how you're supposed to prevent dying to a raidwide because the healers are dead?

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So, taking the chance for the healers to kill the party away from them would be a good thing, then, right? You don't have to sit there and watch as the completely incompetent healers screw something up again and again and again.

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Originally Posted by Asako

DPS, melee especially have a lot of self sustain now also and they can survive for several minutes also without a healer via potions/bloodbath/2nd Wind and other abilities. They also should not be dying to basic mechanics but no one says anything to them when they die.

Instead of flaming your Tanks for not dying, try asking your healers and DPS what went wrong and try to correct it instead. Did they use their self sustain? Did they use their mitigation? Most of the time you'll find the answer is no. You rarely see Addle or Feint up for raidwides, even when they know the damage will kill them, but they will absolutely be the first ones in chat to start complaining. When's the last time most of you used potions?

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even a measly stack marker in a dungeon can kill a dps lmao what are you smoking

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Originally Posted by Isala

So, taking the chance for the healers to kill the party away from them would be a good thing, then, right? You don't have to sit there and watch as the completely incompetent healers screw something up again and again and again.

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Great thing this is a teamwork game. Oh wait..

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

even a measly stack marker in a dungeon can kill a dps lmao what are you smoking



Great thing this is a teamwork game. Oh wait..

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As stated before, if you aren't putting in the effort to learn how to play the team game at 100, then it's your own fault when people decide to do it for you. Be a team member and contribute.

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Originally Posted by Isala

As stated before, if you aren't putting in the effort to learn how to play the team game at 100, then it's your own fault when people decide to do it for you. Be a team member and contribute.

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“If you don’t “play the team game” by magically surviving an attack that will kill you because the healer died and the tank ran away you can’t be unhappy the tanks kills the boss himself”

Do you honestly hear yourself, you are basically just advocating for limitless tank agency in the encounter even at the expense of DPS who may not be at fault

If you followed your garbage logic all the way through you should be resetting if the DPS died to no fault of their own and wants to reset otherwise you are robbing the DPS of agency you so desperately want the tank to have

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“If you don’t “play the team game” by magically surviving an attack that will kill you because the healer died and the tank ran away you can’t be unhappy the tanks kills the boss himself”

Do you honestly hear yourself, you are basically just advocating for limitless tank agency in the encounter even at the expense of DPS who may not be at fault

If you followed your garbage logic all the way through you should be resetting if the DPS died to no fault of their own and wants to reset otherwise you are robbing the DPS of agency you so desperately want the tank to have

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I know you want to create a boogeyman of the evil tank letting the DPS die, but I have had a vast amount of dungeons where both DPS and the tank survived through entire boss fights after the healer splatters themselves over and over again. Just takes a slight bit of competence to keep each other alive, through use of things like Addle, Feint, Curing Waltz, etc. And that's just on the DPS side. Drink a potion FFS.

I, and many other players are tired of having to adjust for the incompetence of players who can't do their job at the sixth level cap. This stopped being an excuse when 50 was the level cap, now that we're double that, it's sheer laziness to not understand how to play. And before anyone goes "But what about level skippers?!" Screw them. Their terrible decisions aren't my problem either. If they can't be bothered to look up information, they shouldn't have skipped.

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Originally Posted by Isala

I know you want to create a boogeyman of the evil tank letting the DPS die, but I have had a vast amount of dungeons where both DPS and the tank survived through entire boss fights after the healer splatters themselves over and over again. Just takes a slight bit of competence to keep each other alive, through use of things like Addle, Feint, Curing Waltz, etc. And that's just on the DPS side. Drink a potion FFS.

I, and many other players are tired of having to adjust for the incompetence of players who can't do their job at the sixth level cap. This stopped being an excuse when 50 was the level cap, now that we're double that, it's sheer laziness to not understand how to play. And before anyone goes "But what about level skippers?!" Screw them. Their terrible decisions aren't my problem either. If they can't be bothered to look up information, they shouldn't have skipped.

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Yes and that’s fine

Except you’ll find 99 tanks out of 100 when the healer dies will panic and hoard their self heals

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes and that’s fine

Except you’ll find 99 tanks out of 100 when the healer dies will panic and hoard their self heals

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I know "anecdotal evidence" and all, but I've yet to find that to be true. Whether it's PLDs, WARs or GNBs, I've never had that issue. Of course, the DRK isn't going to be soloing crap anyway, cause holy crap did SE do them dirty, so that doesn't even fall under the discussion here. If two DPS are alive when the healer is dead, those DPS stay alive when the boss is dead.

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Originally Posted by Isala

I know "anecdotal evidence" and all, but I've yet to find that to be true. Whether it's PLDs, WARs or GNBs, I've never had that issue. Of course, the DRK isn't going to be soloing crap anyway, cause holy crap did SE do them dirty, so that doesn't even fall under the discussion here. If two DPS are alive when the healer is dead, those DPS stay alive when the boss is dead.

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I mean anecdotal evidence and all that but you can see the opinions of everyone who is here and in the other 2 threads that popped up at the same time, a large majority are definitely tilting towards you as a quality of tank that protects the DPS being a vast minority in the game and the chance of being held hostage by a tank who won’t help them isn’t worth the risk that they may get a good tank like you who is actually an effective safety net for a bad healer

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Originally Posted by Isala

I know "anecdotal evidence" and all, but I've yet to find that to be true. Whether it's PLDs, WARs or GNBs, I've never had that issue. Of course, the DRK isn't going to be soloing crap anyway, cause holy crap did SE do them dirty, so that doesn't even fall under the discussion here. If two DPS are alive when the healer is dead, those DPS stay alive when the boss is dead.

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I'd argue DRK is the only tank balanced in regards to the Trinity System, while the other 3 have escaped the boundaries long ago and have now led to a sense of entitlement that they no longer need to play as a team.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Problem is everything is tuned around hardcore. Only non disruptive option for casual content is, as someone else suggested, implementing a failsafe that kills tanks who do this.

SE is unfortunately not going to moderate someone even if they griefed you for a half hour.

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I think a good failsafe is a check thatt checks if tanks are only ones alive if they are every 30 or 60 seconds the boss gives out a healing down stack and a vuln stack that don't drop.

Can't keep boss going for 20 minutes that way but can beat the boss if it is low enough.

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Originally Posted by nivada

I think a good failsafe is a check thatt checks if tanks are only ones alive if they are every 30 or 60 seconds the boss gives out a healing down stack and a vuln stack that don't drop.

Can't keep boss going for 20 minutes that way but can beat the boss if it is low enough.

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Problem there is to trigger that failsafe without disabling unsynced runs or BLU runs, so the coding requirements become more restrictive.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I do it all the time. We have some pretty decent self sustain but it is not some crazy thing. The guy here was probably geared with the latest stuff. It makes us look invincible lol

We still die I promise you.

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Tank will die during MK4 your gear and power tray avail you not ....

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Originally Posted by nivada

I think a good failsafe is a check thatt checks if tanks are only ones alive if they are every 30 or 60 seconds the boss gives out a healing down stack and a vuln stack that don't drop.

Can't keep boss going for 20 minutes that way but can beat the boss if it is low enough.

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Nah, i think people should self aware, if tank think he cant solo it? Then just kill yourself, there is reason why newer dungeon border has damage ground

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Originally Posted by Isala

I know you want to create a boogeyman of the evil tank letting the DPS die, but I have had a vast amount of dungeons where both DPS and the tank survived through entire boss fights after the healer splatters themselves over and over again. Just takes a slight bit of competence to keep each other alive, through use of things like Addle, Feint, Curing Waltz, etc. And that's just on the DPS side. Drink a potion FFS.

I, and many other players are tired of having to adjust for the incompetence of players who can't do their job at the sixth level cap. This stopped being an excuse when 50 was the level cap, now that we're double that, it's sheer laziness to not understand how to play. And before anyone goes "But what about level skippers?!" Screw them. Their terrible decisions aren't my problem either. If they can't be bothered to look up information, they shouldn't have skipped.

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There are still first timers, though.
Despite never saying that, I do have a certain sympathy for first timers and a certain level of tolerance. And personally, I'm glad if the tank can get it over with after the xth wipe while I'm dead.
At one point you need to leave your ego behind and be glad it's over. There is always a next time.
As far as I am concerned, the Tank who clears solo gets a comm from me. I got them too after clearing solo. Or none liekely because the others just want to leave.

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Originally Posted by gumas

Nah, i think people should self aware, if tank think he cant solo it? Then just kill yourself, there is reason why newer dungeon border has damage ground

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They should be, yes. But many aren't and it seems DT has brought them all out of the woodwork.

If the boss's HP is less than 15% or so, I say "go for it." Everyone else can go AFK - make coffee, do laundry, have a quickie while the tank finishes it off. At 20% or more? Just jump off and reset.

It commonly isn't the tank's fault that the other 3 or 7 party members died. Maybe the tank feels they are being held hostage by people that don't know the mechanics.

Funny story but I did a raid with an instant death mechanic (floor removal) and the tank died like 5 times. Got too comfortable just ignoring mechanics all their life, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Shinku_Tachi

Yeah, this sorta thing sucks. The only good purpose for prolonging a fight like this is to show mechanics off to the group (I've been in a couple of groups where tanks did this and it helped).

But yeah, there should be a rage timer or a "super tank buster" added to these fights, to keep this from happening.

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If Party exists but only the tank is left in the arena fighting a boss with over 10% health, Then boss kills tank instantly.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

If the boss's HP is less than 15% or so, I say "go for it." Everyone else can go AFK - make coffee, do laundry, have a quickie while the tank finishes it off. At 20% or more? Just jump off and reset.

It commonly isn't the tank's fault that the other 3 or 7 party members died. Maybe the tank feels they are being held hostage by people that don't know the mechanics.

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The issue is even if the tank didnt know the mechanics and got hit, they can still survive en self heal themselves fast up, this is not possible with the other roles. When a tank can have 8 Vul stacks and still be fine, then skill has gone out of the window.

Personally I love when the tank solo's the fight. I get the duty done while watching shit on my second monitor and I get to cheer for them in the chat while they fight. I had an experience recently where just me and the tank solo'd the boss from 10% and I kept myself alive with second wind and bloodbath.

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Originally Posted by TojiSuzuhara

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...550&height=348


i genuinely almost never post here but its been a more common occurrence i've noticed this expansion specifically where tanks, knowing they can just out sustain a boss, will refuse to reset a fight and instead force players to sit there and wait for them to whittle a boss down. I decided to take my WHM into trial roulette for my daily and got Valigarmanda normal. There seemed to a be a couple of newer players and they were having issue with the add phase/stack marker mechanic and we ended up dying due to not having enough bodies to survive the stacks (except the tanks) so i was trying to explain to them the easiest way to handle it. Instead, the tanks only on the 2nd or 3rd pull decided to just keep going and make us sit and watch and the encounter ended up taking almost 30 minutes. I thought the healer strike thing was silly at first tbh, but i've noticed this happening more and more often and i'm at the point now i will just not be taking healers in duties anymore, ya'll can suffer.

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Hi, warrior main here who sides with the healer strike lol. Tanks being able to do this is one of the reasons I side with the strike so heavily.

20 minutes? I can understand maybe a few minutes and then resetting, but at that point the tanks were just increasing the chances of people leaving because they don't have time to keep trying, and now you have new people to teach the mechanics to. It's just not worth it if they are there to like, you know, actually kill the boss at some point.

Imagine having to make changes to the game because a few tanks can't just be normal and just reset the boss instead of wasting everyone's time, and then imagine defending that. Just be normal you weirdos and stop forcing Square to have to make these changes in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAngeldust

Personally I love when the tank solo's the fight. I get the duty done while watching shit on my second monitor and I get to cheer for them in the chat while they fight. I had an experience recently where just me and the tank solo'd the boss from 10% and I kept myself alive with second wind and bloodbath.

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It's fine when the boss has a small enough amount of HP left that it's faster to just finish it off.

It's not fine when the remaining party is trying to kill the boss from closer to 50% or so and it ends up dragging on far longer then it would've had they just reset the fight.

I feel like there really needs to be a "vote reset" option or something that just forces the remaining party out of the fight if the majority of the group wants it to happen because I've also seen this happen in alliance raids with transitions that aren't autowipes upon failure like Hashmal's.

If I feel like I can pull it off and finish the rest of a fight as drk, I will, but all it takes is a simple request to wipe. I just assume most would prefer to finish a fight if possible rather than redo it.

I mean, if the party keeps wiping time and time again, knowing you can do something and get it done and over with, yes! Absolutly! In a party with friends and testing limits, sure! Just doing it after one try like I have seen some do, nobody learns that way, and leaving incrues a 30 limit penalty.

I would have to say look at things situationally, let people contribute or help. Sometimes shit just happens, maybe it's the healers fault, maybe a lag spike hit, or x,y,z happens.

Nobody learns anything if mistakes aren't allowed to happen.

Also, that said, if you have a new healer, if they are still learning and adjusting, listen to them! If you force a healer to do a large pull before they are sure they can handle it, it's just going to lead to a potential wipe.