7.0 Tank Wishlist

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They absolutely cannot give tanks a rezz because it completely breaks the game to give tanks rezzes

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I understand your opinion. Mine remains unchanged.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I understand your opinion. Mine remains unchanged.

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Why do you think everyone and their grandmother progs with red mage and summoner despite BLM doing more dps?

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Why do you think everyone and their grandmother progs with red mage and summoner despite BLM doing more dps?

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Lol I know exactly why and I don't have a problem with that, so it doesn't change how I feel. I'm not gonna argue about it, it's just a personal wish of mine that we already know isn't gonna happen anyway.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Lol I know exactly why and I don't have a problem with that, so it doesn't change how I feel. I'm not gonna argue about it, it's just a personal wish of mine that we already know isn't gonna happen anyway.

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Then you should also understand why it would be a recipe for disaster to have a tank - a role that can survive mechanics and survive on their own, be able to res a healer or caster back up.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Then you should also understand why it would be a recipe for disaster to have a tank - a role that can survive mechanics and survive on their own, be able to res a healer or caster back up.

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I hear you.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

DRK:
-Rework tbh
-Sustain to match the other tanks

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I used to think this way, but tbh they should do the opposite, they should bring all the tanks down to DRK levels of sustain.

DRK really does have the best sustain from both a balance and design perspective

TBN is not underpowered and its interaction with the MP gauge is unique in how you play it around the burst window, abyssal drain is a good test of the DRK’s knowledge of a dungeon for where it’s most effective to use to help with healing but even if you play DRK correctly you still need the healer to actually heal you

In single target DRK is singularly tanky in how it can effectively reduce damage and it has interesting tech in how you can use a combo of TBN and oblation to from a proxy raidwide mitigation in light party content if you can afford to lose 3 mitigations

DRK’s mitigation design should be the goal not the failure

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

They absolutely cannot give tanks a rezz because it completely breaks the game to give tanks rezzes

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Would it? At most you might get some more goodbye-world tier strats that involves the PLD using hallowed then ressing a healer, but that honestly sounds like a pain in the ass to do. And even then, lately fights have been designed with failiure attacks in them that bypass invuln so I REALLy can't see that happening.
Given how okay the devs are with Holmgang warping fights around WAR, I can't really see this being much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Would it? At most you might get some more goodbye-world tier strats that involves the PLD using hallowed then ressing a healer, but that honestly sounds like a pain in the ass to do. And even then, lately fights have been designed with failiure attacks in them that bypass invuln so I REALLy can't see that happening.
Given how okay the devs are with Holmgang warping fights around WAR, I can't really see this being much of an issue.

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Just because the current state isn't great doesn't mean we should be okay with it getting worse.

Tanks do not need combat raise.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Just because the current state isn't great doesn't mean we should be okay with it getting worse.

Tanks do not need combat raise.

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Healer is already incredibly unpopular and people want tanks to be more unique across the board, I'm not against it.
I'd honestly be fine if everyone could res at least once per fight, it let us design jobs without having to do stupid things like res taxes, and it probably would help how unbalanced the damage for casters has become.

I really like the fact that Criterion does this.

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Originally Posted by Vallerie

I used to think this way, but tbh they should do the opposite, they should bring all the tanks down to DRK levels of sustain.

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Sure hope not, personally. The sustain upgrades were pretty popular with tanks and it didn't upset balance within the role. DRK showed us that damage is still king of all kings.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Sure hope not, personally. The sustain upgrades were pretty popular with tanks and it didn't upset balance within the role. DRK showed us that damage is still king of all kings.

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That’s the problem it did upset the internal tank role balance (IE the WAR is best at everything problem) but worse it decimated the healer balance because tanks are too concerned with internal balance to care that the upgrades they keep demanding are literally shoving healers further and further into irrelevancy

You don’t get to delete another third of the trinity for your power fantasy

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Would it? At most you might get some more goodbye-world tier strats that involves the PLD using hallowed then ressing a healer, but that honestly sounds like a pain in the ass to do. And even then, lately fights have been designed with failiure attacks in them that bypass invuln so I REALLy can't see that happening.
Given how okay the devs are with Holmgang warping fights around WAR, I can't really see this being much of an issue.

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The ability to see further ahead in a fight cannot be overestimated

All you would have to do is hold hallowed, when it’s obvious you are going to fail the mechanic have the PLD use hallowed then rezz the healer then plod along seeing the timeline till the next body check. It would totally decimate the design of progging savage and ultimate

The only way to stop it would be to make literally every body check go through invulns which has its own problems

This is also ignoring how much it would facilitate “goodbye world” style healer LB3 cheeses to just ignore incredibly difficult mechanics

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Healer is already incredibly unpopular

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Also how is it a solution to an unpopular role that suffers from other roles superseding it to give the role that constantly supersedes it more of its kit

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the problem it did upset the internal tank role balance (IE the WAR is best at everything problem) but worse it decimated the healer balance because tanks are too concerned with internal balance to care that the upgrades they keep demanding are literally shoving healers further and further into irrelevancy

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Kinda? I agree that was the end result but I don't recall tank players asking to decimate the healer role, the devs decided to do that. They've been trying to make healer as stress-free as possible to play so they pushed all that power onto the tanks.

The devs balance by their favorite jobs first and no one there plays healer, and it shows.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The only way to stop it would be to make literally every body check go through invulns which has its own problems

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Basically every body check in recent memory is already doing this.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Also how is it a solution to an unpopular role that suffers from other roles superseding it to give the role that constantly supersedes it more of its kit

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Well personally I think offloading healer responsibilities onto other jobs across the board and making healers have a more interesting damage rotation is the way to go. Given this is less of a vision and more of the reason I refuse to play them.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Kinda? I agree that was the end result but I don't recall tank players asking to decimate the healer role, the devs decided to do that. They've been trying to make healer as stress-free as possible to play so they pushed all that power onto the tanks.

The devs balance by their favorite jobs first and no one there plays healer, and it shows.



Basically every body check in recent memory is already doing this.


Well personally I think offloading healer responsibilities onto other jobs across the board and making healers have a more interesting damage rotation is the way to go. Given this is less of a vision and more of the reason I refuse to play them.

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I mean you have tank players in this thread right now saying DRK is the weak one and it should have its sustain buffed rather than nerfing WAR and PLD. Tank mains 100% contribute to the “my role should be all three roles in one i dont care how badly it affects everyone else” given that’s been the entire collective tank playerbase mindset for EW

Body checks for failed mechanics due to dead people rarely go through invulns unless they induce magic vuln ups, just taking 4 or 5 hits because the mechanic blows up when someone dies doesn’t kill a tank with an invuln, hell half tje time it doesn’t even kill the tank without an invuln

That just makes them gimped casters, should we just buff everyone’s defence so anyone can be MT then call tanks melee DPS

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean you have tank players in this thread right now saying DRK is the weak one and it should have its sustain buffed rather than nerfing WAR and PLD. Tank mains 100% contribute to the “my role should be all three roles in one i dont care how badly it affects everyone else” given that’s been the entire collective tank playerbase mindset for EW

Body checks for failed mechanics due to dead people rarely go through invulns unless they induce magic vuln ups, just taking 4 or 5 hits because the mechanic blows up when someone dies doesn’t kill a tank with an invuln, hell half tje time it doesn’t even kill the tank without an invuln

That just makes them gimped casters, should we just buff everyone’s defence so anyone can be MT then call tanks melee DPS

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A large part of this is also people tend to be adverse towards nerfs. So it's in their best interest to ask for Drk buffs or reworks, even if it isn't necessarily the best solution to the problem.
It's a song and dance i've seen so, so, so many times in other games as well. (Hello, Overwatch supports) The goal isn't to make sure there will be instances where you want another tank over War. It's just to avoid having their job nerfed.
Because if Drk does end up getting reworked, there's only really one of 2 outcomes; Either Dark knight finds a niche again and then the War players get mad til they get buffed again.
Or, Drk gets reworked and remains shit by comparison. And then they'll say it needs to be reworked/buffed again. When it's War that choked out every niche from the tank roster.
I definitely agree that the other tanks need to come back down. But to be honest, i don't see it happen in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the problem it did upset the internal tank role balance (IE the WAR is best at everything problem)

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Nah, sustain has not caused any balance issues for tanks. I mean WAR is definitely the dev favorite but it's not like the other tanks are suffering. Last I checked DRK is still the most popular raid tank.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

worse it decimated the healer balance because tanks are too concerned with internal balance to care that the upgrades they keep demanding are literally shoving healers further and further into irrelevancy

You don’t get to delete another third of the trinity for your power fantasy

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Well the good news is that the healer role hasn't been deleted. No one, and I do mean actually no one at all, is rejecting healers from groups because a few people completed a no-healer challenge run.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Nah, sustain has not caused any balance issues for tanks. I mean WAR is definitely the dev favorite but it's not like the other tanks are suffering. Last I checked DRK is still the most popular raid tank.


Well the good news is that the healer role hasn't been deleted. No one, and I do mean actually no one at all, is rejecting healers from groups because a few people completed a no-healer challenge run.

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Sustain has caused issues for tank balance because WAR is literally the best at absolutely everything right now with zero downsides. Just because bringing another tank isn’t an active hinderance doesn’t mean that it isn’t a balance problem. WAR is the most popular raid tank and it’s also the strongest raid tank

And there is a large gulf between having your role done by another role and being actively excluded

A WAR in single target that presses bloodwhetting twice per minute self heals as much as a WHM pressing afflatus solace 6 times (remember WHM gets 3 lilys per minute)

The tanks are so far off balance in their encroachment of the healer role and if your yardstick for “balanced” means “well the healers aren’t getting actively excluded from savage” then you obviously have literally zero care for anything besides how powerful your own role is

Not sure if its been mentioned but I think PLD should get an upgrade to Circle of Scorn that replaces it with Uriel Blade/something similar (a PLD-esque skill from FFXI that shares the lightbeam aoe vfx of circle of scorn *except* the character also leaps and glowy angel wings appear briefly on them)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Sustain has caused issues for tank balance because WAR is literally the best at absolutely everything right now with zero downsides

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If WAR were the best tank at everything, that wouldn't be a sustain issue. That'd be an issue of WAR being given the best of everything. WAR and PLD having much more sustain didn't stop DRK from being the most desired tank for savage. WAR later receiving compensatory buffs for not being the absolute best is just business as usual.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

if your yardstick for “balanced” means “well the healers aren’t getting actively excluded from savage” then you obviously have literally zero care for anything besides how powerful your own role is

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That's not my yardstick for balanced, that's my answer to hysterical claims that an entire role has been removed from the game.

Now if your yardstick for role balance is "well one time these guys didn't use a healer so clearly the role is GONE" or comparing one WHM heal of many to one WAR heal of few while ALSO thinking that WHM should do the same damage with glare as a tank using a full damage rotation?

I mean we're just not gonna agree on some things.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

If WAR were the best tank at everything, that wouldn't be a sustain issue. That'd be an issue of WAR being given the best of everything. WAR and PLD having much more sustain didn't stop DRK from being the most desired tank for savage. WAR later receiving compensatory buffs for not being the absolute best is just business as usual.


That's not my yardstick for balanced, that's my answer to hysterical claims that an entire role has been removed from the game.

Now if your yardstick for role balance is "well one time these guys didn't use a healer so clearly the role is GONE" or comparing one WHM heal of many to one WAR heal of few while ALSO thinking that WHM should do the same damage with glare as a tank using a full damage rotation?

I mean we're just not gonna agree on some things.

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I mean WAR is literally the best at everything right now (well second to GNB for damage but since you have 2 tanks anyway it doesn’t matter) DRK only passes it in hyper optimised groups that specifically use a DNC to buff its two minute window which is incredibly niche. Otherwise it used to be DRK for damage WAR for sustain, now WAR just gets both

And I don’t mean healers habe literally been removed from the game, I mean tanks have all but superseded the need for healers in casual content and the need for single target tank healing in savage

What if you got a WHM and their holy just infinitely stunned the mobs, or kardia healed you for 1000 potency per hit so you never had to mitigate outside of a TB, having another role so your job for you simply isn’t fun at all

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean WAR is literally the best at everything right now (well second to GNB for damage but since you have 2 tanks anyway it doesn’t matter) DRK only passes it in hyper optimised groups that specifically use a DNC to buff its two minute window which is incredibly niche. Otherwise it used to be DRK for damage WAR for sustain, now WAR just gets both

And I don’t mean healers habe literally been removed from the game, I mean tanks have all but superseded the need for healers in casual content and the need for single target tank healing in savage

What if you got a WHM and their holy just infinitely stunned the mobs, or kardia healed you for 1000 potency per hit so you never had to mitigate outside of a TB, having another role so your job for you simply isn’t fun at all

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I mean I get you about WAR but that's just WAR lol. They love WAR, we all know that. WAR has a freaking aoe HoT like there is literally nothing they will not give this job. I've been playing this game so long I'm beyond caring about what WAR does, at this point I just want relatively decent balance and cool thematic stuff for the jobs I play that really lean into the job's identity.

Anyway healers have big problems in this game, but I disagree that tanks are the source of those problems. But I think I've gone back and forth about it enough. There's a healer forum for all that.

I dream of the day I can convince a single tank main (besides goatofwar) that tanks ridiculous sustain is a TANK balance problem not a healer balance problem

Talking about the tank sustain problem is a tank forum problem not a healer forum problem

I mean, I've said the tank sustain on basically anything not DRK is overtuned and needs to be rolled back a long time ago. I was met with more or less the same responses and pushback.

It's ridiculous how much we can do without accounting for healers.

This is what happens when people see the only balance that matters is dps.

The current design of self-sustain on tanks is absolutely a tank problem because it deskills players within the role. Tanks need to know exactly how much damage they get hit for, and the precise timings of incoming attacks including autos. That's what lets you know if its safe to sit at 100 HP for a few seconds while your healer gets to you or whether you need to burn a cooldown to get yourself into a safer range. Inexperienced tanks start panicking the instant that their HP drops below 90% because they have no clue how much damage actually goes out. The rotational regens and on-demand burst heals function as a sort of pacifier, allowing the wailing tank to press a button and soothe their tankxieties. If you want more active engagement with incoming damage outside of the occasional tankbuster, you need to more consistently push tanks to the brink.

It's a bit sad that you don't really see those 'games of chicken' anymore where everyone laughs nervously over how close to death you were. Everything just gets soaked up instantly in a swath of incidental heals. You're either at 100% or 0%.

A degree of self-sustain is fine, but this falls into the bigger problem of mitigation inflation. When you have an excess of defensive cooldowns, you lose the decision-making process around their use. Historically, if you accidentally pressed Hallowed Ground by mistake, not only were you likely to die over the next few minutes due to running out of mitigation tools on tankbusters, but you'd also then be sitting around for a couple of minutes pre-pull to let the cooldown reset. When you have excess cooldowns, there's no thought required around how you ration them. I think if they can't give tanks more of a role in positioning bosses, then they have to make mitigation and survival more interesting than it currently is. If not, there's absolutely no value in playing the role unless you're unable to swap to melee for some reason.

All of these could have been prevented if Bloodwhetting was simply be updated to only heal a portion of the damage dealt... basically, a lesser Bloodbath.

Though like I put in one of the other threads bloodwhetting even in single target alongside WAR’d other healing is still putting out close to 4500 healer potency per minute, the average healer is only putting out about 5500

Bloodwhetting in cleave content is not the only problem

Indeed. Too much healing potency.

taking drk into a levelling roulette is almost always a miserable experience. i'd take a dark mind rework. or add another defensive cd for drk that's not so conditional. also, a mistimed abyssal drain right when you get an insta-heal is just unfortunate and wasteful. have the overheal turn into shields. i don't think that'd be too broken or unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Alphix

taking drk into a levelling roulette is almost always a miserable experience. i'd take a dark mind rework. or add another defensive cd for drk that's not so conditional. also, a mistimed abyssal drain right when you get an insta-heal is just unfortunate and wasteful. have the overheal turn into shields. i don't think that'd be too broken or unreasonable.

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Subjectivity notwithstanding, it really isn't, and the suggestion you listed with abyssal drain doesn't actually help the period of level 1-50 where I'll somewhat agree that DRK could use something. At most DRK needs a low level tbn, a 15% shield or something. TBN would obviously just replace it upon hitting level 70.

For all that is holy could people stop listing to change Dark Mind's niche with magic damage, changing that to a flat mit for all damage only furthers tank homogeneity. Not to mention in the content where it is used a lot (raids, generally) they would, without a doubt, nerf the mitigation on it if changed to an all-rounder.

Oh, and believe me. If they don't care about Bloodwhetting being essentially 4 benedictions in dungeons, they don't care about Abyssal Drain's overheal.

i'm not calling for dark mind to change into another rampart. though i guess it does sound like that when i used the word rework. i'd appreciate it having a convalescence-like effect, or another "applies slow when struck" effect like arm's length. something small.

it doesn't have to be a dark mind rework, just something would be nice. i wouldn't mind having a weaker tbn instead from 40 - 70, or salted earth giving drks 10% mitigation when they stand on it right when we unlock the skill, even better if we had both.

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Originally Posted by Alphix

taking drk into a levelling roulette is almost always a miserable experience.

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While Dark Knight is the worst one out of the four, all tanks in leveling roulette are miserable experience with Gunbreaker not being AS miserable at level 70 and beyond, but Burst Strike feels bad without Continuation... And Paladin had this problem since A Realm Reborn! Like we want to move AWAY from A Realm Reborn Paladin leveling design, NOT towards it!

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Originally Posted by rawker

- add a trait to Shield Bash where it will get its potency increased after using Intervene and removes the stun effect. Can combo into Riot Blade. Combo'ed Riot Blade from Shield Bash will also give 15 Oath Gauge, in addition to 1000MP.

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Make shield bash a oGcd that is weaved in between Fast Blade/Riot Blade/Royal Authority

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Originally Posted by Eldhelion

Make shield bash a oGcd that is weaved in between Fast Blade/Riot Blade/Royal Authority

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The main idea was to introduce alternative openers to combos with added utility. As of current date, there's already Expiacion and Circle of Scorn. Adding more oGCDs with no other requirement is just boring. Just see EW SMN.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want more active engagement with incoming damage outside of the occasional tankbuster, you need to more consistently push tanks to the brink.

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The only way this would work is by redesigning tanks, giving them more tools to actually respond to consistently threatening damage. That includes having more self-sustain. More threatening damage with current tank kits is just going to be healer engagement, because healer is the role with no cooldown sustain and near zero resource management.

Turning the tank into a ping pong health ball for the boss and healers to bounce between each other with little input from the tank is not gonna make the role more engaging for tank players.

The reason this works in other games is because tanks have consistent, active defense gameplay. Some of them even have class mechanics that revolve around defenses with abilities that interact with cool mitigation passives, like Brewmaster from WoW.

Even that flop DCUO game from like 2009 had better tank gameplay that saw you constantly rotating shields, mit and self-heal abilities as your primary form of gameplay in a desperate bid to stay alive.

FFXIV doesn't have all that. Tanks here are 90% doing raw damage and then occasionally pressing a defensive ability that has little to no interactivity with their kit. All of the other elements of tanking are baked into passive enmity and mitigation.

I might be blind but i have not seen anyone suggested to make Sword Oath Stacks be a part of PLD's gauge.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I might be blind but i have not seen anyone suggested to make Sword Oath Stacks be a part of PLD's gauge.

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I knew I forgot something for Paladin when I wrote my wishlist for tanks, thank you for reminding me and I updated my post to reflect that.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

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There are two trends that have occurred across the past few expansions. First, the amount of mitigation and self-sustain provided by tanks and healers has steadily increased over time. This is partially because most support jobs see at least one or two defensive additions to their toolkit every expansion, and partially because when a job within a support role gets a new defensive buff, everyone else starts demanding parity. The end result is a net inflation of your mitigation toolkits over time.

The second is that damage output has generally gone down over time. Historically, mobs including bosses were allowed to land critical hits. That created degree of damage variance and unpredictability that you needed to be able to respond to. Bosses also had a higher frequency of tankbusters, which in turn forced more tank swaps. As an example, the opening phase of T9 alone had about four tankbusters in its loop. That's more tankbusters than you see in some modern Savage fights. In between tankbusters, there were fairly regular cleaves, which hit for half your HP and could kill party members if positioned incorrectly. This was at a time when tanks had much fewer defensive abilities than we have now, and PLD had no raidwide mitigation. And you're asking for more mitigation and self-healing tools across all tanks? Have you seen current day WAR?

The reason why we've gotten to this place is because everyone wants to treat this like a single player game where they have personal control over the outcome. That's fine for a DPS player because you're there to do as much damage as possible and focus on your own mechanical execution. The reason why support roles were traditionally interesting was because your performance was interlinked with your team. If you want to survive the incoming damage you do need to rely on your healers for healing and shielding. If you want to have enough mitigation tools to survive incoming tankbusters, you need to swap with your co-tank. Not because the game puts a debuff on you, but because you might run out of cooldowns. This interdependence does mean that sometimes you die for reasons outside of your control. But it also gives you opportunities to shine by cross-compensating and cooperating with your teammates. If you extract this away from tanks, then tanks end up functionally as melee dps on training wheels.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And you're asking for more mitigation and self-healing tools across all tanks?

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In the scenario where tanks are consistently pushed to the brink with near-lethal damage? Yes. Which is why I said that they would have to be redesigned, rather than adding a bunch of mitigation and self-healing to their kits in the game's current environment.

It'd be different if tanks had consistently available defensive GCDs that they could weave to contend with more damage or had as many defensive abilities as healers have healing abilities, so there are at least more options and active gameplay for managing threatening damage.

But we don't have that. Tanks in this game are designed with a "just do damage, and then use this defensive occasionally when you need it" mentality. They are not designed from the perspective of actual tanking, active and rotational management of defenses and sustain, being the primary element of gameplay.

And that's what would be needed to actually improve tank engagement imo. Otherwise there's nothing in this scenario for tanks beyond waiting for your healer to fix the problem. Which they can do easily as a role with zero cooldown near-zero resource management sustain.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

In the scenario where tanks are consistently pushed to the brink with near-lethal damage? Yes. Which is why I said that they would have to be redesigned, rather than adding a bunch of mitigation and self-healing to their kits in the game's current environment.

It'd be different if tanks had consistently available defensive GCDs that they could weave to contend with more damage or had as many defensive abilities as healers have healing abilities, so there are at least more options and active gameplay for managing threatening damage.

But we don't have that. Tanks in this game are designed with a "just do damage, and then use this defensive occasionally when you need it" mentality. They are not designed from the perspective of actual tanking, active and rotational management of defenses and sustain, being the primary element of gameplay.

And that's what would be needed to actually improve tank engagement imo. Otherwise there's nothing in this scenario for tanks beyond waiting for your healer to fix the problem. Which they can do easily as a role with zero cooldown near-zero resource management sustain.

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Square can’t even design the healers with this philosophy in mind I have no idea why you expect they will get the tanks right

Going down that path is only going to lead to basically what the healers already are, a pathetic DPS “rotation” while you drown in a wealth of GCD and oGCD defensives that you barely use because they are terrified of upping damage in this game

Don’t get me wrong I fully agree tanking barely exists in this game and that a full “defensive rotation” rather than just “melee DPS with a defensive weave every 30 seconds” is much more interesting but trying to pursue that path in this day and age is just going to lead to a blue version of what the modern healers play like

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Square can’t even design the healers with this philosophy in mind I have no idea why you expect they will get the tanks right

Going down that path is only going to lead to basically what the healers already are, a pathetic DPS “rotation” while you drown in a wealth of GCD and oGCD defensives that you barely use because they are terrified of upping damage in this game

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I don't expect them to get tanks right. I'm explaining what they would need to do to get tanks right