A game for 4 year olds

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Gee, I wonder why the death of random side NPCs that we've known for 5 minutes don't really matter.

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If they don't matter then why even show their deaths? Why have one of the mantras the WoL uses to continue their fight still be For those we have lost. Those who we can still yet save? Not showing them would probably have more people complaining about the lack of deaths. If a nameless nobody's death doesn't matter then why should the death of someone you know?

https://i.imgflip.com/6zb5hh.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, that's kinda the thing about calling a story 'bloodless' or 'lacking death'; there's a bunch of different, mostly arbitrary ways to declare that certain deaths 'don't count'. Hell, even I do it; I consider Dragon Age: Origins a pretty death-free game, because while it has a high bodycount barely any of them are characters that actually matter to anybody, it's basically just a throng of bodies to set the tone and setting. But yeah, that's why I mentioned that Endwalker's no slouch in terms of both named and unnamed NPC deaths; if one of those doesn't count to you, the other should.

And I think it should also be noted that FFXIII has perhaps the most egregious usage of 'fight against stated inevitable fact but winning because of Determination' in the entire series at the end. At least with FFXIV it gets conceptual with the help of a zone and concepts that really help it make that actually work, while XIII basically just goes 'no, they believed hard enough to get a good ending anyway'.

I consider XIII's sequels better than the original (in no small part because XIII-2's ending includes the characters trying to do the 'fight fate with conviction' thing and failing miserably, which is very funny), but I'm fully aware that to a lot of people, saying 'FFXIII's sequels were better' is a claim met with great skepticism, because anyone who can say it played multiple FFXIII games.

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Yeah XIII had a divine intervention instance that ended up saving the group but screwing over everything else. You're going to tell me they all don't get to turn into monsters just because two of them somehow manage to do a thing they sort of failed to do last time all cause they gave a big enough F you to the rules that made an actual God feel the need to break the rules for them? My main gripe with XIII-2 is actually that death at the end. I mean you have one character that isn’t shown for most of the game to have an eye of Etro and then gets told they're the same as all Yuels. Has only one single eye and has only one vision and dies. Yet how many Yuels ended up having multiple visions? I call bull. I do wonder how the XV that was to be part of XIII's world would have fit. Even though I have watched some things that tried to explain how it fit I just don't get it after wtf Lighting Returns was. I would love to beat thar game but I'm not great at the combat and I feel the clock runs too quickly. If it was more as to how the one in Majora's Mask then I'd probably feel like I didn't need to use a guide can could figure out what to do on my own.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

https://i.imgflip.com/6zb5hh.jpg

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Pretty much, thank you.

Such a horrible person he is. Not just a troll, but a legit horrible person who has no compassion and empathy.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I’ve told people in real life about how EW tried to pull off its messaging. They were not appreciative of it. I do not believe that the people who defend its messaging have experienced loss in their lives or if they have they definitely didn’t process it like a normal human being.

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You want to go there, let's go there. I lost my aunt the first week of Endwalker, and found out during the cutscene with Venat after the trial. Less than a month later, I lost one of my uncles. The very next month (February 9th of this year), my father died. The expansion resonated with me after my aunt's death, and I'd say I'm far less of a train wreck I would have been with the deaths if not for how well they pulled off the expansion's themes. Also, you get an ignore from me for even daring to cross that fucking line, Aveyond.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Yeah XIII had a divine intervention instance that ended up saving the group but screwing over everything else. You're going to tell me they all don't get to turn into monsters just because two of them somehow manage to do a thing they sort of failed to do last time all cause they gave a big enough F you to the rules that made an actual God feel the need to break the rules for them? My main gripe with XIII-2 is actually that death at the end. I mean you have one character that isn’t shown for most of the game to have an eye of Etro and then gets told they're the same as all Yuels. Has only one single eye and has only one vision and dies. Yet how many Yuels ended up having multiple visions? I call bull. I do wonder how the XV that was to be part of XIII's world would have fit. Even though I have watched some things that tried to explain how it fit I just don't get it after wtf Lighting Returns was. I would love to beat thar game but I'm not great at the combat and I feel the clock runs too quickly. If it was more as to how the one in Majora's Mask then I'd probably feel like I didn't need to use a guide can could figure out what to do on my own.

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From what i understand the connection was mainly through Fabula nova crystalis which shared an overarching lore. Totally biased but im glad fnc ended since the games kept getting darker each game.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

If they don't matter then why even show their deaths? Why have one of the mantras the WoL uses to continue their fight still be For those we have lost. Those who we can still yet save? Not showing them would probably have more people complaining about the lack of deaths. If a nameless nobody's death doesn't matter then why should the death of someone you know?

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Because the game tried to cheaply manipulate you? They aren't brave enough to kill characters people truly care, like the twins or waifu ysthola, so they killed the safe ones instead. Has been that way since post HW, as you can see by characters who died and sidelined. Papalymo, minfilia, lyse, arenvald, and random citizens.

Also funny how you said that non named npc death doesn't matter to "certain" crowd. If you try to bring up those npc deaths in reddit or other place, most of the time they'll go "lol, who?". And we know reddit is the place for ffxiv simps.

Well, if there is one theme from the expansion this topic has certainly demonstrated, it's that different people can have drastically different emotional responses to the same situations be they positive or negative.

I wouldn't say I find character deaths absolutely mandatory to making me emotionally invested in a story, though I was still expecting to have more of a...lasting impression from a world-ending apocalypse instead of having to constantly remind myself that one was happening in the first place.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You want to go there, let's go there. I lost my aunt the first week of Endwalker, and found out during the cutscene with Venat after the trial. Less than a month later, I lost one of my uncles. The very next month (February 9th of this year), my father died. The expansion resonated with me after my aunt's death, and I'd say I'm far less of a train wreck I would have been with the deaths if not for how well they pulled off the expansion's themes. Also, you get an ignore from me for even daring to cross that fucking line, Aveyond.

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I'm so sorry to hear about your loss Ryu

Hell it wasn't so recent but I lost my mother four years ago from congestive heart failure and I got to watch her give up on her will to live as I was one of her care takers for almost 10 years. But a lot of endwalker resonated with me .

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Originally Posted by Kazemon15

Also what is "normal human being"? EVERYONE experiences loss differently. If YOU truly experienced loss, you would know that.

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Oh actually I think it's perfectly normal human thing. People see what they want to see when it comes to something they're passionate about, so even if the game is trash in its own theme and message, people will make it up in their head. It's just copium in the end.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

What do I even say to this? You honestly believe that people who like a video game's story and themes haven't experienced loss? Am I being trolled right now?

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You do realize your side has been doing the same thing all this time? In fact people like you are the one who started it. When someone said they can't relate to EW, the most used response is "Well, if you have experience loss, you'll appreciate/relate to it"

I won't be this spiteful towards the game if EW simps didn't try to gaslight me into feeling bad in the first place.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Well, if there is one theme from the expansion this topic has certainly demonstrated, it's that different people can have drastically different emotional responses to the same situations be they positive or negative.

I wouldn't say I find character deaths absolutely mandatory to making me emotionally invested in a story, though I was still expecting to have more of a...lasting impression from a world-ending apocalypse instead of having to constantly remind myself that one was happening in the first place.

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Did you feel the same way the other time the game has said (insert really bad and maybe urgent thing is happening here) that it also has given about the same amount of showing? Cause it's been like that more than just now. So if you haven't then I wonder why it didn't stick this time. I let this slide due to the medium we're consuming. That and any other time the story has been all hey this thing is really important but we're not going to change the sky box for all zones. Just a few zones or so. I do wonder how their sky boxes are coded. If there's some kind of limit. For me it worked due to how it's explained. The thinnest places get hit first and the worst. And would see the most change. Not saying that at least visually it couldn't have been better cause they could have done more. Yet I do know some would have wanted sort of what happened during the end of 1.0 where there'd be random stuff happening. Which idk if they can do that

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

If you don't love the current story with a burning passion, you're obviously either just a dirty, rotten, no-good story skipper or you just didn't understand the super deep themes of this expansion. /s.

I get the feeling that these people are the same people who treat those who don't like Rick and Morty as stupid, with how pretentious they are.

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Lmao true. Remember when they said that if we disagree with/hate Hermes that means we don't have or understand depression?
Or when they tried to subtly implied we're supremacist and nazi apologist for preferring the Ancients rather than the sundered? Oh right how could I forget my favorite; apparently we "lack moral" if we do that.

That's wild I tell ya...

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

This is the lore subforum. Emotional manipulation, gaslighting, and fake outrage when they're called out for it are the standard here.

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But it's cool when you guys do it, yeah?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

You do realize your side has been doing the same thing all this time? In fact people like you are the one who started it. When someone said they can't relate to EW, the most used response is "Well, if you have experience loss, you'll appreciate/relate to it"

I won't be this spiteful towards the game if EW simps didn't try to gaslight me into feeling bad in the first place.

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What is it with insisting that people are on "sides" here? I'm not anyone's side and I am perfectly capabale of accepting that someone's experience of grief or loss might lead to them personally feeling alienated by, instead of relating to Endwalker. Art is subjective like that.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Lmao true. Remember when they said that if we disagree with/hate Hermes that means we don't have or understand depression?
Or when they tried to subtly implied we're supremacist and nazi apologist for preferring the Ancients rather than the sundered? Oh right how could I forget my favorite; apparently we "lack moral" if we do that.

That's wild I tell ya...

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I feel like the only thing you lack is reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I get the feeling that these people are the same people who treat those who don't like Rick and Morty as stupid, with how pretentious they are.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I feel like the only thing you lack is reading comprehension.

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I literally called it.

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Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

From what i understand the connection was mainly through Fabula nova crystalis which shared an overarching lore. Totally biased but im glad fnc ended since the games kept getting darker each game.

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Yeah, Type-0 especially is... oof. I'm glad that Type-0 exists, largely because its story is good and something that the medium of games tends to avoid. I'd say 'JRPGs especially', but honestly any genre, even the ones that are frequently about wars like strategy and shooters, rarely go that direction and tone. Incidentally, Type-0 is a game that really shows that even in a story that necessitates a bodycount, you don't need that bodycount to include major characters; a single nameless soldier and his chocobo does all the emotional heavy lifting that story needed.

But as much as I like that Type-0 exists, we don't need more Type-0s. Just the one is fine. (Or it would be if the gameplay itself didn't suck and the game actually functioned on modern platforms; I'd like to see it remade just so it's playable and not janky as hell.)

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

What is it with insisting that people are on "sides" here? I'm not anyone's side and I am perfectly capabale of accepting that someone's experience of grief or loss might lead to them personally feeling alienated by, instead of relating to Endwalker. Art is subjective like that.

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I feel like the only thing you lack is reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

I feel like the only thing you lack is reading comprehension.

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That clapback doesn't really make sense because I was playing on the "lack morals" part of your post. As in, I don't have an opinion about you lacking morals, I just think you lack reading comprehension because you are reading a lot of stuff that posters are not saying in thier posts. (That you are a nazi, or lack morals, or haven't experienced loss.)

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, Type-0 especially is... oof. I'm glad that Type-0 exists, largely because its story is good and something that the medium of games tends to avoid. I'd say 'JRPGs especially', but honestly any genre, even the ones that are frequently about wars like strategy and shooters, rarely go that direction and tone. Incidentally, Type-0 is a game that really shows that even in a story that necessitates a bodycount, you don't need that bodycount to include major characters; a single nameless soldier and his chocobo does all the emotional heavy lifting that story needed.

But as much as I like that Type-0 exists, we don't need more Type-0s. Just the one is fine. (Or it would be if the gameplay itself didn't suck and the game actually functioned on modern platforms; I'd like to see it remade just so it's playable and not janky as hell.)

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That opening was brutal but learning they die the exact same way for tens of thousands of loops was even worse.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Given all that’s been said and done I fully believe that a decent chunk of this playerbase especially those in this thread are willing to accept pretty much anything so long as it’s sanctioned by Yoshi, so they lose nothing if those of us wanting a more mature world and story get our way. They’ll play regardless. Whereas EW caused no small amount of us to quit with me being one of the last holdouts because I want to have money in case of the slim chance that 7.0 isn’t a disaster like this expansion was.

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I have seen this assumption from you before and none seems to adresa it so let me be the one to dispell this delusion of yours. If instead of the story we got we would have received, let's say, your version of the story, a lot more people would have quit the game. After throwing up first, of course. Or laughing histerically. So there's that.

As to your other disgusting assumptions of people's lives and how they're dealing with loss you should grow up. Like a lot. Mentally. And maybe talk less untill you do.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Oh actually I think it's perfectly normal human thing. People see what they want to see when it comes to something they're passionate about, so even if the game is trash in its own theme and message, people will make it up in their head. It's just copium in the end.



You do realize your side has been doing the same thing all this time? In fact people like you are the one who started it. When someone said they can't relate to EW, the most used response is "Well, if you have experience loss, you'll appreciate/relate to it"

I won't be this spiteful towards the game if EW simps didn't try to gaslight me into feeling bad in the first place.

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You know what? No. You don't get to play victim on behalf of aveyond after he just told people how he thinks they should have dealt with loss and that they are lying about losing loved ones. And no, in this tread no one "started it" but him.

So maybe use your DARVO elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

That clapback doesn't really make sense because I was playing on the "lack morals" part of your post. As in, I don't have an opinion about you lacking morals, I just think you lack reading comprehension because you are reading a lot of stuff that posters are not saying in thier posts. (That you are a nazi, or lack morals, or haven't experienced loss.)

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I wasn't talking to you or about you when I said that part :p

Ah yes and of course more gaslighting "it's on you for overreading". Never mind that they rarely bothered to hid it behind sarcasm/smugness. Honestly if you're going to accuse me of that, I could use the same accusation and claim that you miss it on purpose.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Did you feel the same way the other time the game has said (insert really bad and maybe urgent thing is happening here) that it also has given about the same amount of showing? Cause it's been like that more than just now. So if you haven't then I wonder why it didn't stick this time. I let this slide due to the medium we're consuming. That and any other time the story has been all hey this thing is really important but we're not going to change the sky box for all zones. Just a few zones or so. I do wonder how their sky boxes are coded. If there's some kind of limit. For me it worked due to how it's explained. The thinnest places get hit first and the worst. And would see the most change. Not saying that at least visually it couldn't have been better cause they could have done more. Yet I do know some would have wanted sort of what happened during the end of 1.0 where there'd be random stuff happening. Which idk if they can do that

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I can't recall any situations even remotely near the same level of urgency throughout the MSQ save for the tail end of Shadowbringers, which incidentally was a much stronger push to see things through to see the end then what I got from anything in Endwalker.

I honestly think I got more catharsis from (Hopefully...) being rid of Zenos for good then I did the whole "saved the entire world" bit because it didn't feel like it was in grave danger it was stated to be with how limited the scope of the Final Days was.

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Originally Posted by CheshCa7

You know what? No. You don't get to play victim on behalf of aveyond after he just told people how he thinks they should have dealt with loss and that they are lying about losing loved ones. And no, in this tread no one "started it" but him.

So maybe use your DARVO elsewhere.

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It's not play victim, but calling people out on hypocrisy. During an argument about EW, someone said to my face that me not able to moved on after traumatic experience is wrong because "you have to forge ahead".
So yeah, how isn't that not "telling people how to deal with loss"?

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Originally Posted by CheshCa7

I have seen this assumption from you before and none seems to adresa it so let me be the one to dispell this delusion of yours. If instead of the story we got we would have received, let's say, your version of the story, a lot more people would have quit the game. After throwing up first, of course. Or laughing histerically. So there's that.

As to your other disgusting assumptions of people's lives and how they're dealing with loss you should grow up. Like a lot. Mentally. And maybe talk less untill you do.

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Speaking for myself, I can say that if Endwalker went the direction of Aveyond's rewrite fanfiction (although I'm not sure 'fan' is the right term in this context), I probably wouldn't have even finished it. That story was so full of... at best highly questionable viewpoints and ideas, at worst diverging into being hateful and concerning. I do not want to experience that sort of story, which is why a list of my favorite stories likely has very little overlap with theirs. And a big part of why I play FFXIV is that its story has never been anywhere near that hateful on any level; if Endwalker suddenly diverged into the likes of Aveyond's rewrite, it would've felt like a betrayal of all that had come before.

Not everyone hateplays a game; generally speaking, that's not fun for most people. Even less people continue hateplaying and wallowing in being that negative around the game's community for nearly an entire year afterwards. most people move on and find other things to do with their life!

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I honestly think I got more catharsis from (Hopefully...) being rid of Zenos for good then I did the whole "saved the entire world" bit because it didn't feel like it was in grave danger it was stated to be with how limited the scope of the Final Days was.

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If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

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Originally Posted by Kozh

It's not play victim, but calling people out on hypocrisy. During an argument about EW, someone said to my face that me not able to moved on after traumatic experience is wrong because "you have to forge ahead".
So yeah, how isn't that not "telling people how to deal with loss"?

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That is shitty of them but it also has nothing to do with aveyond straight up denying people who enjoyed the story experienced grief in their life. It probably wasn't even the same person.

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Originally Posted by CheshCa7

That is shitty of them but it also has nothing to do with aveyond straight up denying people who enjoyed the story experienced grief in their life. It probably wasn't even the same person.

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And what I said also has nothing to do with Aveyond. As I said before, I only aim to call out the hypocrisy of some people from lore forum. I'll still said it whether I agree with Aveyond or not.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I’ve told people in real life about how EW tried to pull off its messaging. They were not appreciative of it. I do not believe that the people who defend its messaging have experienced loss in their lives or if they have they definitely didn’t process it like a normal human being.

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If I were to ask one of the Clinical Psychologists I work with to define "normal human being" I'm very confident they'd laugh at the absurdity of it. Frankly, as I said in my previous post, you're judging everyone by your standards, and that isn't a healthy mindset.

Whether you like it or not, the basic premise - wallowing in despair being self-defeating - is a message that does resonate with some and it isn't for you to tell anyone that they're wrong/that it isn't 'normal' to feel that way.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

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A small touch that might've made the ending more satisfying to me would've been showing the places affected by the Final Days returning to normal as well as the reactions of the people living in those regions, as opposed to giving all the attention to our friends who were still safe over in Sharlayan.

Overall, I think I mostly feel like Endwalker needed to do more showing to go with all the telling...which honestly sounds kind of silly when considering it already had more cutscenes/dialogue then any of the prior expansions. Though perhaps not so much when it was admittedly trying to condense two expansions worth of plot into one.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Speaking for myself, I can say that if Endwalker went the direction of Aveyond's rewrite fanfiction (although I'm not sure 'fan' is the right term in this context), I probably wouldn't have even finished it. That story was so full of... at best highly questionable viewpoints and ideas, at worst diverging into being hateful and concerning. I do not want to experience that sort of story, which is why a list of my favorite stories likely has very little overlap with theirs. And a big part of why I play FFXIV is that its story has never been anywhere near that hateful on any level; if Endwalker suddenly diverged into the likes of Aveyond's rewrite, it would've felt like a betrayal of all that had come before.

Not everyone hateplays a game; generally speaking, that's not fun for most people. Even less people continue hateplaying and wallowing in being that negative around the game's community for nearly an entire year afterwards. most people move on and find other things to do with their life!



If I'm allowed a moment to armchair speculate: I actually think that might be because you're more motivated by the character stories of the game rather than the grander and more societal ones. I love Endwalker's ending, but a lot of Ultima Thule was more about grappling with ideas than people, which doesn't always land for people. But for those who are more motivated by more direct character journeys and interactions, Zenos is the finale rather than the coda; one final culmination of a character journey before the credits roll. (Being essentially a representative of previous expansions as The Last Son Of Galvus probably helps with that too.)

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What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

If I were to ask one of the Clinical Psychologists I work with to define "normal human being" I'm very confident they'd laugh at the absurdity of it. Frankly, as I said in my previous post, you're judging everyone by your standards, and that isn't a healthy mindset.

Whether you like it or not, the basic premise - wallowing in despair being self-defeating - is a message that does resonate with some and it isn't for you to tell anyone that they're wrong/that it isn't 'normal' to feel that way.

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Yeah that's a pretty gross implication, and it baffles me someone can write that.
Dismissing the loss and suffering of another because of their taste in storytelling ? Because a story about loss resonate with them ?

Especially with the recents world events, i was fortunate enough to not lose anyone during covid, but my friend who lost his grandfather during that time, and then played Endwalker he felt a big connection to the story.
Especially the ending with Meteion's message.

And this is a sentiment that i've seen many times, not only with Endwalker, but other games about accepting loss, like Hellblade Senua Sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

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If you immediately pitch Endwalker as having a message of 'supporting genocide', we're not going to have a productive and informative discussion here, and I have better things to do with my time than try.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

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If I remember correctly, probably the part where the rightful heir of Garlean Throne sets up a soapbox, pulls out a megaphone and talks about how democracy is bad actually, and some people would actually be better off as vassal states of the Garlean Empire because they're just too violent and unruly to govern themselves. So, y'know, rhetoric that resembles actually real life justifications for genocide.

More egregious than the mythological genocide of a race of godlike supermen with no real life analogue through a process anti-apotheosis as a story to explain why there is suffering in the world, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

What kind of viewpoints and ideas are you talking about? Anything worse that the narrative of Endwalker supporting genocide? I read the rewrite and I didn’t find anything nearly as egregious.

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For a game intended for 4 years old, we circle back to genocide discussion pretty often.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

If you immediately pitch Endwalker as having a message of 'supporting genocide', we're not going to have a productive and informative discussion here, and I have better things to do with my time than try.

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But that is the plot of Endwalker, the Venat outright betrays and exterminates her own people with one of the ingame reasons being outright eugenics or for not dealing with grief the way that Venat decides they should.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

If I remember correctly, probably the part where the rightful heir of Garlean Throne sets up a soapbox, pulls out a megaphone and talks about how democracy is bad actually, and some people would actually be better off as vassal states of the Garlean Empire because they're just too violent and unruly to govern themselves. So, y'know, rhetoric that resembles actually real life justifications for genocide.

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Democracy isn’t beyond criticism and not all fictional states have to be made democratic. Keeping Empire as is allows to have more variety in the story and is imo a good choice instead of completely wrecking it or making another bland democratic state by Alphinaud’s hand.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

More egregious than the mythological genocide of a race of godlike supermen with no real life analogue through a process anti-apotheosis as a story to explain why there is suffering in the world, I'd say.

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Nah miss me with the mythological stuff. The only thing that makes it fictionalized is the fact that their souls lived on to reincarnate, the process itself is a full on extermination. If a nuke was falling down on the ground before you, I don’t think your first reaction would be to gasp and say “wow, what a mythopoetic act of apotheosis this is”.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

For a game intended for 4 years old, we circle back to genocide discussion pretty often.

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The more I think about it, the more I have the impression that Endwalker is a kids book written by a psychopath.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

More egregious than the mythological genocide of a race of godlike supermen with no real life analogue through a process anti-apotheosis as a story to explain why there is suffering in the world, I'd say.

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Idk man, I'm pretty sure harming a group of people because of your ideology (no matter if you think it's for the victim's own good) is pretty close to real life situation. I think we call it terrorism.

You might see sundering as amputating diseased limb, but I disagree with that view.

I'm not going to engage deeply with that argument again because it's already been beaten to death in several other topics, but I still find myself thoroughly puzzled by why they couldn't have given Venat a more...concrete reason for her decision, as opposed to being based strictly on possibilities and the knowledge that mankind is still alive in the future for the time being.

It makes no sense to attach numerous shades of gray to a course of action, then double down on defending it as having been the right and best course. At that point you're better off just taking the black and white approach to avoid creating a weird tonal dissonance.

That whole point has aged even more poorly for me now that we've gotten more context behind the Nibirun/people of the Plenty to know they were decidedly dissimilar from the Ancients in how they chose to pursue "perfection". They were obsessed with efficiency and perfecting themselves as a people, not trying to build a perfect world. The visual storytelling in the Dead Ends suggests even their very star came second to that ambition, so by the time their goal was fulfilled they had basically eliminated every reason they might've had left for living.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thenightvortex

Nah miss me with the mythological stuff. The only thing that makes it fictionalized is the fact that their souls lived on to reincarnate, the process itself is a full on extermination. If a nuke was falling down on the ground before you, I don’t think your first reaction would be to gasp and say “wow, what a mythopoetic act of apotheosis this is”.

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No, the thing that makes it fictionalized is that it's a complete bag of fantastical nonsense that doesn't resemble any act that's ever happened in human history.

I've stopped comparing acts by Hydaelyn or the Ascians as genocide, because to do so would be to take away from the serious nature of genocide as a concept; it does not deserve to be thrown around to refer to fantastical fictional concepts like the Sundering, a worldwide flood, or even a Rejoining; not to mention, pinning that badge on those story beats is very clearly against the spirit of what the game is trying to do with all of those story beats. The term 'genocide' should reasonably only be brought up when referring to things that actually resemble real-world acts that have been called such, of which FFXIV is not free of, so we should probably save that term for when it's more apropos.


Incidentally, have you been doing the quests that you started this thread to talk about? Because I have, and I find it more interesting than this derail, so let's get back to it.

https://i.imgur.com/FTUXirr.png

Gonna spoiler-tag this out of courtesy for the people who haven't yet done it, which I suspect the most talkative people here might not have!

'Robots learn they have feelings' is not exactly a new concept even in this game, but I'm a sucker for it. And I like that a not insignificant part of the quest is about Jammingway having to meet N-7000 where it's at, rather than entirely N-7000 being the one doing the growing.

Interesting that the Nibirun still haven't been resolved; the Bloodsworn capstone is rarely used for story development, so maybe they're beeing held back for another quest. Perhaps the allied tribe quest?