Live Letter Thoughts

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

None of what was posted above accounts for the fact that the fans of the Scions are in agreement with those of us who aren't in saying that they need to take a break from them. This is not demonstrated by the polls you have posted.

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I wanted to show that one thread on reddit does not make a good statistic. Especially when its quite often said here on the forum how "bad" reddit, twitter and others are.
So bascially you have a high chance to find a thread on reddit that shows your own opinion but that does not make it a fact.

@Lauront: So now we shift goal and take threads not into account even though they are made after Endwalker thus should show the opinions of people after they finished it but small threads with barely any comments should?

The character poll from China is also quite recent.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

This forum, and even places like Reddit, are a tiny percentage of the playerbase. Its near impossible to really get a 100% accurate idea of what the population think on any aspect, be it job changes or story. Anger and discourse will always have a louder voice in the pack. One just hopes that those in charge like Yoshi-P know to look beyond just these walls when seeking feedback.

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Exactly. Which is why I just took a few minutes and searched for FF14 reddit Endwalker and got threads with many different views. So having one thread that somehow says that a few people who like the scions are fine with them being gone from the story is not proof. Its just that, one thread.

It also shows how the information is used. My threads, with one of them having over 500 comments (unlike the other links with barely any comments) is somehow not accurate because somehow many people will just change their opinion of a story after a bit? I am sure if these threads would have been against Endwalker they would have been fine to be used.

So maybe we should better just stick to our own opinions and not try to give any side some majority this / minority that.

But again I am not sure why the MSQ and characters are so much a topic, since seemingly quests are not important in a MMO and gameplay should be more important...

About the topic itself: Still looking forward Island Sancturary.

Trashfire is not even close to an accurate descriptor of this thread, but;

My huge issues with job design aside;

From what we saw of the story, I think it looks good and I'm actually looking forward to it. While EW disappointed me, I do enjoy Estinien and Y'shtola a lot so I'm glad we're continuing with more of them, the new Reaper character looks like she'll be interesting.

Excited for the new dungeons, I read somewhere that Criterion Savage is meant to be done in full Savage BiS? Which is an interesting and bold choice if true, and one quite frankly I think I'll end up liking. They can't provide an Ultimate every patch so the game having something to do combat wise once you've cleared the tier and geared is a good one, especially since it wont require coordinating with 7 other people and instead just 3.

Holding my thoughts on Island Sanctuary until I actually get there and try it myself, but the rewards seem really cute so I'm sure I'll do it for those casually if I'm not a fan of how it works.

The new tier's gear looks cool, and I'm unsure if the particle effects are for normal mode or Savage, but if they're for doing Savage, I think that's another interesting choice and a good one. I know a lot of people have complained about Ultimate titles and weapons being the only "prestige" gear in the game, and while I don't think it's prestigious to do Savage at all, I don't have an issue with Savage gear having a bit more flair than just being a dyeable version of the normal mode.

I also haven't watched much more than the trailer but the fight against the giant tree with the triangle arena looks like it's going to be a hell of a lot of fun. I'm glad they took note of the positive reaction to how they utilized the arena in P2S to make the fight interesting and they're leaning more into it. Square/Circle arenas for every fight was getting boring, so if you're going to make us do the dance, build on some fun and interesting arena designs - and I'm very stoked to see that they've taken that feedback and seem to be playing with it more. I can't think of a single fight in all of Eden that wasn't just Square or Circle arenas, so this is a good step IMO.

All in all, issues with job design aside (and if you know my post history you'll know probably 90% of what I do is complaining about the state of healers and Scholar) I'm actually pretty excited for this. I wasn't planning on doing the new tier at all, but now I think I will, just on DPS this time.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Perhaps not here, where honestly it feels rather daunting at times to speak out as a fan of Venat,

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Are you joking? Please tell me you're joking. Being an open Venat fan is the easiest way to have the GCBTW accept you instantly on any other social media platform, and even on the forums you're accepted by half of the people here. On the forums, you'll actually meet people from both sides, people who like her (somehow), and people people who don't. Don't pretend like Venat fans are some persecuted group, that's so ridiculous it would be hilarious if I could believe it was a joke.

- You guys have the GCBTW to banish any anti-Venat people to downvote hell on Reddit, while if you make a pro-Venat post you get to swim in upvotes for almost zero effort.
- You have Pro-Venat Reddit Mods to just outright delete pro-Ascian/Zodiark posts and art to prevent them from getting even some small level of attention.
- You have your own personal derailing squad on the forums to ensure that anyone who disagrees with you can't have a proper thread because god forbid someone talk about how they don't like mommy or how she's a murderer. (The derailing happens even when its a positive thread like this one was. Guess people hate Aveyond THAT much for being honest)
- Every Youtuber on Youtube is forced to agree with you so they can get MSQ watch time as not liking the story isn't popular.
- You have big FFXIV streamers like Zepla painting the entire portion of the community that didn't like Endwalker/Venat as 'trolls'.

Being a Venat fan isn't 'daunting'. You just prefer the Reddit/Twitter/Youtube echo chamber where you don't often encounter people who don't like your precious mommy.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Excited for the new dungeons, I read somewhere that Criterion Savage is meant to be done in full Savage BiS? Which is an interesting and bold choice if true, and one quite frankly I think I'll end up liking. They can't provide an Ultimate every patch so the game having something to do combat wise once you've cleared the tier and geared is a good one, especially since it wont require coordinating with 7 other people and instead just 3.

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I think this is indeed the intent, as the next two criterion dungeon are scheduled to release in 6.4 and 6.5 respectively (while the next Ultimate will be in 6.3). This is great idea to keep raiders busy all year long, so I hope this experiment will be successful.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I wanted to show that one thread on reddit does not make a good statistic. Especially when its quite often said here on the forum how "bad" reddit, twitter and others are.

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Yeah, for reasons that have been rehashed here multiple times, but if posters were to limit their examples to the OF, the usual anti-OF arguments would crop up, hence an example drawn from the XIV Discussion subreddit.

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So bascially you have a high chance to find a thread on reddit that shows your own opinion but that does not make it a fact.

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Is anyone suggesting that the existence of opinions makes whatever is being said within those opinions a fact? But when the question initially posed was one of doubt that some people are bored of the scions, yes, the existence of said opinions does make it a fact that such opinions exist.

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@Lauront: So now we shift goal and take threads not into account even though they are made after Endwalker thus should show the opinions of people after they finished it but small threads with barely any comments should?

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Introducing threads about the expansion and Scion popularity is goal-shifting in the first place, while failing to take into account the fact that a character being popular does not mean the same thing as not wanting to shift to new characters in the story. It is not a: "I want the same exact cast in the story for the next story arc" poll - one could point to the existence of characters outwith the Scions outstripping certain of them in popularity as well, on that note. SE often seems prone to this confusion themselves by dragging out a character's presence just because they previously had been popular. But regardless, the two things are not the same. The Chinese poll falls under this same issue. And to reiterate a point made by the below poster for the earlier threads:

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

All of your sources were immediatly after release, which is when Endwalker's reception was at its strongest. Recency biais is a well known phenomenon.
Just a few weeks ago, a poll on reddit with a few thousands of votes firmly put Endwalker below Shadowbringers as the subreddit's favorite expansion.

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So maybe we should better just stick to our own opinions and not try to give any side some majority this / minority that.

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Indeed, hence as the above poster put it (and I have stated multiple times before when the Strikers of the world allude to supposed "majorities" that just "love" EW, which includes attempts to present other sites as somehow reflective of majorities in contrast to the OF, when the reality is no major site the fanbase engages can claim that and we must remain agnostic as to how representative any of them is since we have no basis to determine this):

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Which is why polling experts exist at all, to filter all the biais and try to make the more accurate picture of what the playerbase think of the game.
At our level, it's impossible to know anything for certain besides anecdotal evidence.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Daddy Thancred Arc was a good Arc.
His relationship with Ryne was really good. One of many reasons why ShB IMO was the Best Expansion.

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If they were really concerned about making good character development closures, that would have been the end of his arc. Since 1.0 his story was based on the guilt from failing to stop Minfilia's father from getting killed, evolved into him feeling he had to make up for it by working harder under the Circle and consequently the Scions while still being too hard on himself since, stumbling to grow due the circumstances of his missions (falling for the trap in Drybone, being taken by an Ascian, etc), then feeling like he 'lost' Minfilia in Heavensward... until he meets what is essentially his 'second chance' in Ryne, which was the primary reason he got so over protective of her.
Only reason he's still around now is because muh fans who can't let go of characters with concluded arcs just because they love them too much.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Are you joking? Please tell me you're joking. Being an open Venat fan is the easiest way to have the GCBTW accept you instantly on any other social media platform

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Herein lies a big part of the problem; we're not on any other platform. The victim play about how you all get downvoted to oblivion elsewhere is meaningless here. If we really cared what Reddit or Twitter or wherever else thought, we'd go there. Maybe save your anger for them, and try approaching the forums as its own place.

And before it comes up: I'm not very pro-Venat. I'm neutral about her at best. I want to play through Endwalker again for better context (I was kinda rushing the first time to outpace spoilers, and still only met with moderate success at it), but I keep getting distracted by other stuff, so I try to keep my thoughts about the matter to myself.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

If they were really concerned about making good character development closures, that would have been the end of his arc. Since 1.0 his story was based on the guilt from failing to stop Minfilia's father from getting killed, evolved into him feeling he had to make up for it by working harder under the Circle and consequently the Scions while still being too hard on himself since, stumbling to grow due the circumstances of his missions (falling for the trap in Drybone, being taken by an Ascian, etc), then feeling like he 'lost' Minfilia in Heavensward... until he meets what is essentially his 'second chance' in Ryne, which was the primary reason he got so over protective of her.
Only reason he's still around now is because muh fans who can't let go of characters with concluded arcs just because they love them too much.

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Cool Story Bro.
Im not going to argue about if the Devs were concerned about his character development closure, or why he's still around for any reason.
His arc and that story in ShB was great, thats the only thing I can & will say on it. Why he's still around? I dounno, why didnt he die back in ShB, not an answer I can give. If he's still around, then he still has a purpose. And Ill wait to see what that purpose is. For now, my attention and energy is on other things in the game.

The only person I question is Kryle since it just seems like she does nothing more then exposition. But thats exactly how Urianger started out. So there is potential she could see a bigger role in the future. But again, for now my attention and Energy is on other things.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Herein lies a big part of the problem; we're not on any other platform.

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I know the forums are different, I even said as such in my post. I was pointing out how every other platform caters to pro-Venat people, while the forums are a more fair place for discussion. The person I was responding to said that it was difficult or 'daunting' to be pro-Venat on this platform. This is not the case, it is merely not as incredibly easy and popular to be pro-Venat here as you'll actually encounter people who don't share your opinions. The forums are what a social media community SHOULD be (or at least far closer than anything else), but this person is accustomed to echo chambers and thus apparently finds the opposing opinions on the forums to be scary.

I did bring up one thing about the forums that makes it more difficult to be anti-Venat, but even with that in mind, I'd rather be posting here than on other sites.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Being an open Venat fan is the easiest way to have the GCBTW accept you instantly on any other social media platform, and even on the forums you're accepted by half of the people here. On the forums, you'll actually meet people from both sides, people who like her (somehow), and people people who don't. ...

Being a Venat fan isn't 'daunting'. You just prefer the Reddit/Twitter/Youtube echo chamber where you don't often encounter people who don't like your precious mommy.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Which begs another question. Should stories be written by market research?

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Speaking bluntly from a business perspective:

For a self contained one-off story? No. The story's concluded, you don't need to worry about long lasting consequences or impacts as far as character deaths/interactions go.

For an always expanding, online service? yes. Any consequences from a character death will become a permanent mark in all future content and part of the service, and at worst, will drive off any players that were a fan of said character from continuing. Especially when the payoff for such a death can just as easily miss the mark and not hit with the playerbase, resulting in the death effectively being in vain and shooting the writers in the foot for going -1 on established loved characters; it's a simple fool's gamble. This is especially egregious when you can tell a story with darker themes or higher stakes without ever killing any of the main cast, tons of novels and other video game stories accomplish this.

You only need to walk down the likes of FF14 twitter or FF14 tumblr to see a endless ocean of fanart & appreciation for the scions, showing just how wide a fanbase they have. The devs stand to gain almost nothing from killing off major characters at this point in the game's life, and trying to do so will likely lead to the dev team being in the spotlight in the next CEO meeting with a 'bruh, wtf you doing' moment. The worst that that will ever happen to the scions at this point is getting the Lyse treatment, where they will be put into positions that make it much harder for them to interact with the MSQ, but still easily accessible should the writers ever need to pluck them for a plotline.

Heck, even take Haurchefant, who was only an important side character; even nearly half a decade after the fact, there's still so many tributes, art, and appreciation for him. DSR got insane view spikes for FF14 on twitch because even the people not interested in watching other ultimates got extremely vested into the alternate timeline idea where he's saved.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Is it all about money?

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Welcome to capitalism. Square Enix is a business. They will do whatever decision that they perceive will bring the most profitability, through the analyzation of petabytes, if not exabytes worth of statistics that will tell exactly what's correct and what's not in the current paradigm of the video game industry. Anyone claiming to be the majority, minority, etc is just being a fool, for only Square knows who is the majority. And taking a look at FF14's profits year over year and constantly rising active players expansion over expansion, their statistics are telling them -exactly- what they need to know.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I know the forums are different, I even said as such in my post. I was pointing out how every other platform caters to pro-Venat people, while the forums are a more fair place for discussion. The person I was responding to said that it was difficult or 'daunting' to be pro-Venat on this platform. This is not the case, it is merely not as incredibly easy and popular to be pro-Venat here as you'll actually encounter people who don't share your opinions. The forums are what a social media community SHOULD be, but this person is accustomed to echo chambers and thus apparently finds the opposing opinions on the forums to be scary.

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I am sorry but I feel I must defend myself a bit here and say that is... hippo crap? Forums would be a very boring place if we all just agreed on everything, especially when it comes to topics of lore and how we are effected by its story and themes. One of the beautiful things about fiction and art is how it can be interpreted and judged in different ways, be it for good or bad. I have found it very interesting to see why people do feel the way they do about Venat and Endwalkers themes, some of the opinions shown on this forum have even opened my eyes into flaws I did not see in my playthrough, though my mind has not be changed on its major points. Perhaps ‘daunting’ was the wrong word to use, and I am sorry. I did not mean to imply any victim hood. In this forum however, it just feels to me that over time… passive-aggressive retorts and accusations of ‘echo chambers’ in regards to those of us who do like the expansion/Venat have become a little more common then actually listening to opinions and debating said lore. Personally speaking it makes trying to engaging in such topics from the side the pendulum swings less feel a little… redundant somtimes.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

So now reddit is not bad and is good for using as a source? Great, time to do some searching.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._somehow_than/
Here we have a thread about Endwalker being better than Shadowbringers with 92% upvotes and quite a few comments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._much_as_most/
This one is about someone not enjoying Endwalker as much. Only 62% upvotes and under 80 comments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...one_else_find/
Another person that finds Endwalker boring. 54% upvotes and 51 comments, most of them barely get any upvotes.

And just because I found them, two character polls (Japanese and chinese) after Endwalker

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...dom_character/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...pularity_poll/

Quite a few of the scions are in the upper rankings, so they cant be that bad.

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Yes, they can. Not liking Venat, the Scions or Endwalker gets you downvoted by the Reddit mob, more news at Eleven. This is not evidence, it's a "Gotcha."

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I know the forums are different, I even said as such in my post. I was pointing out how every other platform caters to pro-Venat people, while the forums are a more fair place for discussion. The person I was responding to said that it was difficult or 'daunting' to be pro-Venat on this platform. This is not the case, it is merely not as incredibly easy and popular to be pro-Venat here as you'll actually encounter people who don't share your opinions. The forums are what a social media community SHOULD be (or at least far closer than anything else), but this person is accustomed to echo chambers and thus apparently finds the opposing opinions on the forums to be scary.

I did bring up one thing about the forums that makes it more difficult to be anti-Venat, but even with that in mind, I'd rather be posting here than on other sites.

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On Reddit you can be downvoted, which hides what you have to say from the public eye and its far too easy to dogpile a dissenting opinion that may very well be valid. You can't do that here, which I suppose makes it fraught with peril to be a Venat supporter. My gods, the utter horror.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I am sorry but I feel I must defend myself a bit here and say that is... hippo crap? Forums would be a very boring place if we all just agreed on everything, especially when it comes to topics of lore and how we are effected by its story and themes. One of the beautiful things about fiction and art is how it can be interpreted and judged in different ways, be it for good or bad. I have found it very interesting to see why people do feel the way they do about Venat and Endwalkers themes, some of the opinions shown on this forum have even opened my eyes into flaws I did not see in my playthrough, though my mind has not be changed on its major points. Perhaps ‘daunting’ was the wrong word to use, and I am sorry. I did not mean to imply any victim hood. In this forum however, it just feels to me that over time… passive-aggressive retorts and accusations of ‘echo chambers’ in regards to those of us who do like the expansion/Venat have become a little more common then actually listening to opinions and debating said lore. Personally speaking it makes trying to engaging in such topics from the side the pendulum swings less feel a little… redundant somtimes.

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See what I said in my response to Awesome above. Reddit operates so that dissenting opinions are easy to obfuscate and shove neatly out of view. You can't do that here, which I guess makes it difficult to be a Venat supporter. Somehow. You ask me, the way this forum operates is how forums should operate and I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind any complaints on allowing us who have issues with Endwalker and its message to freely express our views without being downvote bombed. Point is, the way other forums and social media operate are unhealthy and antagonistic.

I'm not gleefully rubbing my hands together at your discomfort like some Saturday morning cartoon villain, if that makes you feel any better. I just want to be able to express what I think without it disappearing into the aether like it does on Reddit.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Forums would be a very boring place if we all just agreed on everything ... One of the beautiful things about fiction and art is how it can be interpreted and judged in different ways, be it for good or bad.

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We don't disagree on this. That is why the official forums is far better than the echo chambers like r/ffxiv where one type of opinion is valued while the other is outcast. You're not going to get both interpretations on other sites.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Perhaps ‘daunting’ was the wrong word to use, and I am sorry. I did not mean to imply any victim hood.

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I'm inclined to agree that daunting perhaps wasn't the word you were looking for, considering the contents of your newer comment.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

In this forum however, it just feels to me that over time… passive-aggressive retorts and accusations of ‘echo chambers’ in regards to those of us who do like the expansion/Venat have become a little more common then actually listening to opinions and debating said lore.

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That point about echo chambers is brought up a lot because its very true. The FFXIV community (at least the portion that exists on social media) as a whole is very aggressive in suppressing anything seen as 'negative'. The same is true on the forums, and while the derail squad can't actually succeed in suppressing any threads like they can on Reddit, they still are not here for good faith discussion, they're here to shut discussion down. When people like Atelier or Silverbane show up in Aveyond's threads, they're not here because they like the topic or find it interesting. They're here to distract everyone from having a meaningful conversation. When Aveyond made a thread about how the new guide videos were bad for FFXIV's image, Atelier came into the thread and said that the thread was worthless and that no one should care about this topic. Does this contribute to a discussion? No, it discourages people from engaging in it by labeling it as pointless, and that's their goal. People like me or Aveyond bring it up a lot because it occurs a LOT.

As for the reason why only the one side of the argument ever refers to echo chambers, well that one's easy. All of the big social media communities outside of the forums sway in one particular direction. There really isn't a place to go for an anti-Endwalker or anti-Venat echo chamber, thus the argument doesn't work against an anti-Endwalker person.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

Personally speaking it makes trying to engaging in such topics from the side the pendulum swings less feel a little… redundant somtimes.

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Well that's the thing. It IS redundant. Every time someone like Aveyond makes a thread, the same exact people come into the thread to derail it before anyone can talk about something that might be 'negative'. They chase anyone who might have wanted to discuss things away from the thread and the same conversation resumes every time. It's exhausting, and I'll be full glad to have a good discussion when the derail squad calls it quits and lets people discuss what they want.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Herein lies a big part of the problem; we're not on any other platform. The victim play about how you all get downvoted to oblivion elsewhere is meaningless here. If we really cared what Reddit or Twitter or wherever else thought, we'd go there. Maybe save your anger for them, and try approaching the forums as its own place.

And before it comes up: I'm not very pro-Venat. I'm neutral about her at best. I want to play through Endwalker again for better context (I was kinda rushing the first time to outpace spoilers, and still only met with moderate success at it), but I keep getting distracted by other stuff, so I try to keep my thoughts about the matter to myself.

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Don't forget to state how this is your opinion alone and how you can only speak for yourself. You wouldn't want anyone to think you were speaking for the majority, would you? Surely, you would protect yourself from being seen as engaging in the type of bad faith cajolery that vile Zodiark cult is known to practice.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Don't forget to state how this is your opinion alone and how you can only speak for yourself. You wouldn't want anyone to think you were speaking for the majority, would you? Surely, you would protect yourself from being seen as engaging in the type of bad faith cajolery that vile Zodiark cult is known to practice.

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Oh dang! You're right! Wow MightyMollusk, and here I thought you were a champion of truth, always making sure that everyone clarifies when they're sharing an opinion or a fact! But here you are, sharing an opinion and not stating as such! Shame on you MightyMollusk! SHAME!!!

https://i.imgur.com/YlRLEJe.gif

As long as y'all are having fun.

Good god, the Emet fanclub is still raging about that evil wicked vile hateful witch Venat and her murderous evil horrible nastiness that must be SHAME SHAME SHAMED verbally in the MSQ otherwise this is the worst story in the entire universe because we didn't spend 4 hours talking about how duplicitous and horrible and genocidal and awful and mean and stinky and disgusting and wretched that awful backstabbing hag Venat killed the beautiful perfect Amaurotine race through her pettiness and laziness?

I must be on the FF14 forums.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Good god, the Emet fanclub is still raging about that evil wicked vile hateful witch Venat and her murderous evil horrible nastiness that must be SHAME SHAME SHAMED verbally in the MSQ otherwise this is the worst story in the entire universe because we didn't spend 4 hours talking about how duplicitous and horrible and genocidal and awful and mean and stinky and disgusting and wretched that awful backstabbing hag Venat killed the beautiful perfect Amaurotine race through her pettiness and laziness?

I must be on the FF14 forums.

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After a careful Analyses...this checks out

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Good god, the Emet fanclub is still raging about that evil wicked vile hateful witch Venat and her murderous evil horrible nastiness that must be SHAME SHAME SHAMED verbally in the MSQ otherwise this is the worst story in the entire universe because we didn't spend 4 hours talking about how duplicitous and horrible and genocidal and awful and mean and stinky and disgusting and wretched that awful backstabbing hag Venat killed the beautiful perfect Amaurotine race through her pettiness and laziness?

I must be on the FF14 forums.

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More like some people recognize that committing genocide is an act of great evil, even if done with good intent (which whether she had good intent or not is honestly debatable if we look at what the story shows and not tells as the two contradict). They also recognize that when you make a story about such a horrible crime, you have to be careful not to glorify that action. The game doesn't do a good job at treating it with the care a topic like genocide needs as the scions, especially Y'shtola bend over backwards to make sure that everyone knows shes a good person for killing a planet's worth of people. Then the Venat enjoyers got mad that someone dare not love their mommy as much as they do, so they decided to form the derail brigade in an attempt to derail any thread that isn't to their liking. And btw, a Venat fan is the one who brought up the topic of Venat in this thread sweetie :)

So yes, you are on the FF14 forums. Welcome to the land of spiteful Venat enjoyers who insist that everyone like an unlikable murderer.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

So yes, you are on the FF14 forums. Welcome to the land of spiteful Venat enjoyers who insist that everyone like an unlikable murderer.

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All Im seeing is a Venat hater who needs everyone to know they hate Venat so much and will go at people who do like her.

Im sorta curious why the story team chose Troia as a focus on our first major lore piece of the 13th shard's world. My only guess since Troia was one of the kingdom's in FFIV that flourished in everlasting bounty and grace then it would prolly make a good pick to see it's downfall. But I would've imagined they'd choose Baron.

My other guess why is that from the trailer it seems that Scarmiglione will be the boss fight for that dungeon, and since Troia housed the Earth Crystal in FFIV and him being the elemental fiend of earth, then there's the connection.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Im sorta curious why the story team chose, Troia as a focus on our first major lore piece of the 13th shard's world. My only guess since Troia was one of the kingdom's in FFIV that flourished in everlasting bounty and grace then it would prolly make a good pick to see it's downfall. But I would've imagined they'd choose Baron.

My other guess why is that from the trailer it seems that Scarmiglione will be the boss fight for that dungeon, and since Troia housed the Earth Crystal in FFIV, that would link him to it.

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This point I'm a bit worried about the story telling for 6.2, it looks like it's going far too all in with trying to remake FF4 that I'm worried they aren't really thinking about making a good story with it

Okay, let's not pretend that Big Momma Genocydaelyn didn't wipe an entire race off the face of the universe, erased their culture, drastically shortened the lifespans of their sundered copies, and took their memories away. Let's also not pretend that the story didn't essentially sweep all that under the rug in order to praise her as a noble and heroic figure, with no one calling her out on her deeds save for herself. Let's also not pretend that the blood Emet-Selch, Lahabrea, Elidibus and the rest of the sundered Ascians spilled in their desperate attempts to Rejoin their worlds lies on her hands, considering she intentionally allowed the three Unsundered Ancients to escape, knowing full well what would happen considering we ourselves told her.

Emet-Selch is decidedly no saint, and the story goes out of it's way to make sure you understand that, but with Venat it practically bends over backwards to give her the "Sloppeh Toppeh Gawk Gawk Wombo Combo 9000" to have Hades of all people begrudgingly praise her.

Guess we're having this argument yet again.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

This point I'm a bit worried about the story telling for 6.2, it looks like it's going far too all in with trying to remake FF4 that I'm worried they aren't really thinking about making a good story with it

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I dont necessarily see it as them trying to remake FFIV. Its just them doing what they did before with a lot of the lore pieces in this game that reference older FF titles by recontextualizing them into a new meaning. We already have the plot being different from main FFIV where its us trying to figure out what happened to Vtra's sis, the mystery behind the 13th shard along with now learning about reaper lady and whats her deal.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Guess we're having this argument yet again.

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What else are we going to do on the FFXIV Forums?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Guess we're having this argument yet again.

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yeah and I'm sure most of us are already sick and tired of seeing this crap bleed into some threads trying to discuss other elements of this game. We already have the "What's the deal with that lackluster story ya-da thread", how about people try to have their arguments there or even better yet, ignore the people whom clearly are trying to instigate drama and responses? And Im talking about both sides here. Wasnt this thread originally supposed to be us discussing about whats in the recent LL? yeah the last few pages sure seems like we're having a healthy discussion about that :/

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I dont necessarily see it as them trying to remake FFIV. Its just them doing what they did before with a lot of the lore pieces in this game that reference older FF titles by recontextualizing them into a new meaning. We already have the plot being different from main FFIV where its us trying to figure out what happened to Vtra's sis, the mystery behind the 13th shard along with now learning about reaper lady and whats her deal.

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Outside of maybe the 12 parts I don't think there been a main story part that has imported this much almost whole from another game and they don't really seem to recontextualising them either....maybe I am just being bitter after the Eden stuff but not really liking how much ff4 stuff seems to be getting imported

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Outside of maybe the 12 parts I don't think there been a main story part that has imported this much almost whole from another game and they don't really seem to recontextualising them either....maybe I am just being bitter after the Eden stuff but not really liking how much ff4 stuff seems to be getting imported

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Uh...did you already forget Crystal Tower in ARR and Shadowbringers being almost a full re-imagining of FFIII's plot?

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Uh...did you already forget Crystal Tower in ARR and Shadowbringers being almost a full re-imagining of FFIII's plot?

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I didn't notice that at all with Shadowbringers to be honest, if that was going on they did a good job hiding it from me. Crystal worked for me, maybe it helped that it felt they did a good job making it work in the setting the 14 and more about using some assets from 3 to make some fun fights

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I didn't notice that at all with Shadowbringers to be honest, if that was going on they did a good job hiding it from me. Crystal worked for me, maybe it helped that it felt they did a good job making it work in the setting the 14 and more about using some assets from 3 to make some fun fights

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And thats what they have been doing so far with their references and callbacks from other FF games to fit with FFXIV's lore. And if you played FFIII and understood its lore, then you would've noticed how heavily they borrowed a ton of elements for FFXIV's msq. But I personally never minded it since like I said they reused them well to fit into the setting.

But back to 6.2 speculation, I'm wondering whats the deal with Golbez in FFXIV's setting, since in his game he was just being mind controlled by a powerful Lunarian, Zeromus and wasnt really a bad guy. I wonder if that'll mean anything.

You do not understand. The guild is about the ethical only and does not tolerate the unethical thing ever. Scene where Venar grounds No Shadow Gods to go to they room and seal the power is fake. The writer make the No Shadow God look to be the fool when the No Shadow are supposing to be the perfect race like the Atlantis people. She genocide the Atlantis without the consent and she even has the wikipedia entry to praise when King Solus does not. Story call her herois! Herois!! This is fake because the writer can not even spel. Is worse than high-cholesterol burger we are angry already.

We support the No Shadow God for all the story since the Heavensward because of high ethic ground only. Because when King Solus decree that all the worlds must die he does it to protect racial purity of the No Shadow God peoplen. If you step on the ant from above do you cry? No. King Solus does not cry when he kill the inferior race because is not murder it is the cleansing. To making the omelette must break a few heads. It make the world the better place. Guild take his position because is very ethical.

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Originally Posted by Graeham

You do not understand. The guild is about the ethical only and does not tolerate the unethical thing ever. Scene where Venar grounds No Shadow Gods to go to they room and seal the power is fake. The writer make the No Shadow God look to be the fool when the No Shadow are supposing to be the perfect race like the Atlantis people. She genocide the Atlantis without the consent and she even has the wikipedia entry to praise when King Solus does not. Story call her herois! Herois!! This is fake because the writer can not even spel. Is worse than high-cholesterol burger we are angry already.

We support the No Shadow God for all the story since the Heavensward because of high ethic ground only. Because when King Solus decree that all the worlds must die he does it to protect racial purity of the No Shadow God peoplen. If you step on the ant from above do you cry? No. King Solus does not cry when he kill the inferior race because is not murder it is the cleansing. To making the omelette must break a few heads. It make the world the better place. Guild take his position because is very ethical.

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https://i.imgur.com/tcyyaRu.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

https://i.imgur.com/tcyyaRu.jpeg

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...4.01.24_PM.jpg

That music got me hype.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

That music got me hype.

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Cant wait for the full version

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Guess we're having this argument yet again.

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The poor horse and wall.

Maybe Golbez is being controlled by whatever if anything on the 13th's moon. Don't forget they said each shards moon had its own thing going on with it

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Maybe Golbez is being controlled by whatever if anything on the 13th's moon. Don't forget they said each shards moon had its own thing going on with it

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True, Yoshi-P was very specific about the moon trivia which makes me think this is something we're gonna see sooner rather than later.

Though I don't think they would do it, a plot that involves bringing together the remnants of Zodiark's dark energies in order to re-create him or a similar god to inherit his will would be interesting to see. It would give the currently unaccounted for Ascians something to do. The felling of both major deities without a replacement for either is something that never sat well with me.

One thing is "killing magic" at the end of a single player game, as much of a letdown as that is. Another thing is "killing magic" in an ongoing fantasy world. Religion outside of Eorzea and more specifically Ishgard isn't nearly as developed as it could be, and it is further complicated by us knowing that there really aren't any true gods out there, except for the 12 which don't seem to care about much of anything.

Taking away both major gods while causing a lot of twists in order to prop up one and dedicating no more than an hour's worth of time in Endwalker to the other didn't help matters much. Now in 6.2 we'll have the Loporrits dancing atop the Crater of Martyrs to further belittle Zodiark's importance, angering fans of both him and the Ascians, while the MSQ continues to push Hydaelyn and Meteion onto us. Is it any wonder then why some people aren't finding this writing to their liking and are sceptical of what is coming next?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Let YoshiP and the Devs make their game, and then judge it when it happens. Stop preemptively passing judgement on something before it even happens and then look silly when you are wrong.

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I think I will continue speaking my mind on things as they are teased/announced and hold them accountable by speaking out whenever what we see in game does not match what they say elsewhere. New characters didn't materialize in 6.1. This was not to the game's benefit. New characters are coming in 6.2. This is good and is aligned with what they said previously. It is our duty as the customers and consumers of this game to maintain and raise the bar of quality for this game. Expressing ourselves clearly and honestly is necessary for that to occur.