Bring Back Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Why not add 10 more buttons then , that do nothing in particular but you must use them every time before any other ability, oh too many buttons ? skill issue.

I Suggest we add Kaiten I Kaiten II and Kaiten III , each Kaiten is for a different Iaijutsu

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That would be awesome, give me more buttons to press please.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

That would be awesome, give me more buttons to press please.

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https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/3143731_700b_v1.jpg

We should need this to play the game, anything below 50 hotkeys for singletarget rotation is not good enough.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/3143731_700b_v1.jpg

We should need this to play the game, anything below 50 hotkeys for singletarget rotation is not good enough.

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When in doubt, try hyperbole to make your argument seem legit. Removing Kaiten removed single button, which didn't solve anything, it made Kenki another bland gauge and it made you spam shinten for 20-23% of your total button presses. You can check any decent SAM log to verify it. So what do you think is better, 35 buttons, with Kaiten making some ~8% of your total actions and Shinten ~12%, or have 34 buttons, but you spend 5th of your time pressing single bland skill.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

So what do you think is better, 35 buttons, with Kaiten making some ~8% of your total actions and Shinten ~12%, or have 34 buttons, but you spend 5th of your time pressing single bland skill.

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I think it would be better to have an absolute maximum of 20 buttons for combat.
And i also think that combat in its core is not good in FF14 when compared to other MMOs, it starts with the awful movement and automatic turning to enemies, which makes you run the wrong direction.
The amount of abilities you need to push is just covering this up and you notice it mostly on bosses with narrow paths like P10 savage.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I think it would be better to have an absolute maximum of 20 buttons for combat.
And i also think that combat in its core is not good in FF14 when compared to other MMOs, it starts with the awful movement and automatic turning to enemies, which makes you run the wrong direction.
The amount of abilities you need to push is just covering this up and you notice it mostly on bosses with narrow paths like P10 savage.

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You can disable automatic turning to target, this means that you will need to look at the target yourself, but you won't have that awful 0.5s worth of running in wrong direction. Or you can get used to it, if you're not casting, you can jump before using a skill and it will not make you run in wrong direction since you cannot change direction mid-air. Not the best solution, but sometimes you know that it will try to fuck you up, so you can plan beforehand and just jump. Wall bosses are definitely worst for this.

Anyways, problem is that combat is already extremely barebones. 2.5 GCD, with few oGCDs sprinkled on top doesn't make very sophisticated gameplay. Average APM per each job is just like 30-47, which is piss low. There is no decision making, barely any DoTs to keep track of, no ailments, nothing. Meanwhile, GW2 has average of 70-80 APM, with outliers at 120 APM, very chaotic combat, sophisticated DoTs builds, active dodge, much more ground targeted skills, weapon swaps and so on. BDO has combos, complex positionals and other stuff.

FFXIV's combat is just too easy and way to simple. If you reduced each job to 20 buttons, combat will be officially brain dead. Having variety of buttons is last thing that keeps combat on some level, many people compare it to piano, and they're right. It's not about smashing buttons as fast as you can get, it's pretty much memory game, with very little variance and improvisation. If you wanted to reduce jobs to some 20 buttons, you will need to do more drastic changes to combat overall - like making removing oGCD vs GCD, all skills are now 1s long, and that's it. Or even worse, SE will keep doing what they're doing now, and they'll shift difficulty from playing your job correctly, to doing encounter correctly. Which results in making even wider gap between normal content and Savage.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

You can disable automatic turning to target, this means that you will need to look at the target yourself, but you won't have that awful 0.5s worth of running in wrong direction.

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I am aware this is possible, but doesn't work in practice because the angle of what counts "infront" of you is too small, if it was 180° like in any other game yes, but if you turn this off you practically can't attack anything that is even slightly not "infront" of you.
Especially in P10 savage when you must run over that stupid web and dare to use a skill you character turns to the boss and wants to run right into the poison, or off the edge on that small platform.
You shouldn't have to fight the awful controls in addition to fighting the boss itself, this could easily be fixed if SE simply let you attack from any direction, which you already kinda can btw, your auto-attacks always hit enemies behind you, if you hold down right mouse button and move your mouse left/right you can use skills on enemies behind you without turning to it, this works even better in legacy mode.
It is totally stupid and deserves no excuses.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I think it would be better to have an absolute maximum of 20 buttons for combat.

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https://i.ibb.co/rvBLNct/Falcon-20-BLK-4-1.jpg

If this is your idea of " Amazing Gameplay " geezus. Not sure where this magical number of 20 is coming from. XIV's combat already is so simplistically linear that the only things we have left are Nuances to deal extra damage. Think...

• Slice Casting
• Optimizing landing all Positionals, incl. uptime strats
• Variations of buttons required to press
• Raidbuff timings
• Resource holding and management

Functionally? Kaiten served a lot of purpose and that's not even going into how satisfying it felt to use. It's removal? didn't suddenly terraform XIV's gameplay to be groundbreakingly improved... Nor reaching that magical number. Like is this incl. or excl. the four ASWD buttons for movement? Speaking of movement...

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Originally Posted by Arohk

And i also think that combat in its core is not good in FF14 when compared to other MMOs, it starts with the awful movement and automatic turning to enemies, which makes you run the wrong direction.
The amount of abilities you need to push is just covering this up and you notice it mostly on bosses with narrow paths like P10 savage.

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There's a sense of irony with a GNB complaining about " Needing to press to many buttons ", you can circumvent this issue with settings and the other part is just user error in my opinion. Kaiten was perfectly fine it's removal to reduce button count by 1 does absolutely nothing other then making gameplay more terrible.

" But Celesti? we have to many buttons to press! its to much Fun! how do we possibly manage our game with this much Fun!? My braincells are overstimulated, I can't even hit the boss properly in P10S! a fight with one of the biggest hibox imaginable? " =u=; okey...

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

If this is your idea of " Amazing Gameplay " geezus.

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This is what peak gameplay looks like
https://youtu.be/sDDiIvuDFRA

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Originally Posted by Arohk

This is what peak gameplay looks like
https://youtu.be/sDDiIvuDFRA

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Hard to say if that is supposed to be ironic or not. But if not, that just seems like mindless button mashing, with active dodging. No offense to B&S, this game seems to attract some niche audience which love it, but just in your video, there are clear red flags for cheap game, with attempts to mask it. Just look at all the camera shake, holy. It takes 11 minutes to kill that scorpion, and all he does are seemingly same "mechanics" that you just need to dodge. Other players are hidden, you can only see their name tags. If you like it, good for you, but there is reason that game isn't mainstream like WoW, GW2 or FFXIV.

But to expand upon it - this kind of dodging will not work with FFXIV server infrastructure which works on basis of potatoes and a lot of duct tape. Secondly, if combat was changed from slow, strict rotation, to 100+ APM button mashing, people will hate that much more than having to use ~33 buttons. When was the last time you've seen MMORPG to completely change not only it's combat, but whole philosophy and flow of it?

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Just look at all the camera shake, holy. It takes 11 minutes to kill that scorpion, and all he does are seemingly same "mechanics" that you just need to dodge. Other players are hidden, you can only see their name tags. If you like it, good for you, but there is reason that game isn't mainstream like WoW, GW2 or FFXIV.

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There is a reason for what you see on the screen, but you can only know whats going on if you played the game, Bosses in BnS had similar mechanics as bosses in other games like wow or Ff14, but was more focused on action combat, for example, there are no tanks, healers or DPS classes, everyone is DPS essentially.
You can turn off the camera shaking but this player decided to keep it on, you can toggle off other players the same way to toggle off spell effects in FF14, for visual clarity or performance reason.
Bosses in BnS are mostly dodging, blocking or iframing attacks, he only got hit twice in the entire fight, and one hit can be enough to get killed or wipe if the tank gets knocked too far away from the boss, there is a lot of boss positioning going on so the boss doesnt hit the rest of the party, you had to stack players that get aired and juggle a fireball, you had to block rockets at the end by activly using your "block" skill and not just stand infront of them.
They killed the Boss 1 second before the enrage, when the raid content was brand new, thats like clearing Savage in week one.

Why Blade and Soul failed has vastly other reasons than the combat, which was probably also too difficult for the average player.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

But to expand upon it - this kind of dodging will not work with FFXIV server infrastructure which works on basis of potatoes and a lot of duct tape. Secondly, if combat was changed from slow, strict rotation, to 100+ APM button mashing, people will hate that much more than having to use ~33 buttons. When was the last time you've seen MMORPG to completely change not only it's combat, but whole philosophy and flow of it?

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Yes, obviously FF14 could never work like BnS combat, althoughsome jobs do have dash abilities like dancer, but they play no important role anywhere, you can do any mechanic without sprint or movement skills.
BnS is not button spamming, you can hold down the right mouse button for your auto attacks but the global CD is almost non existent so you can use a lot of skills at the same time, that really only depends on your Ping.
I played BnS a lot before i switched to FF14, the difference in pace was shocking at first, everything felt so incredibly slow, but the onyl thing i want them to change is the damn "auto turning to the enemy", that is absolute dogshit to play against.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

... but the onyl thing i want them to change is the damn "auto turning to the enemy", that is absolute dogshit to play against.

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Just a few comments back, you wanted to make every job have only 20 buttons. You admitted that FFXIV cannot have BnS combat, so what kind of combat do you imagine will work in FFXIV with 20 buttons? Keep in mind, you cannot have things as:

• DoTs
• Ailments
• Elemental stuff
• Big changes to the flow of combat (50 APM maximum)
• Aggro management
• Any meaningful choices in your rotation
• Anything that could be, in any shape or form, problematic or slightly inconvenient for devs. They cannot even be bothered to account for potential 50% on next GCD, this was one of their reasoning for Kaiten removal.
• Status effects
• Different builds
• ... and more

Because FFXIV's combat is so barebones, having 30+ buttons is about only thing you can do to make combat interesting. Less buttons will not magically solve any issues, it will merely make the game more boring. Game is already skewing the balance to shift the engagement from jobs to encounters. This results in all content lower than EX being incredibly dull, because you're stuck with boring, barebones jobs, while fighting a striking dummy.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

This is what peak gameplay looks like
https://youtu.be/sDDiIvuDFRA

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You forgot to mention that peak gameplay starts at " 11:31 " into the video... ( sigh... )

We could all shower each other with Korean MMO combat footages, think Black Desert PvP or Revelation with more Dynamic fast paced intricate combat and highlight moments then XIV ( with bigger features.. ) that's just not the point... Besides ignoring every point, you cannot simply Copy paste another games Combat / Job Designs / Gameplay / Balancing over a pre-existing Game. " XIV sucks so here's better gameplay from another game there for Kaiten removal? Big good much wow "... that's your take?

You want less buttons purely for the sake of less yet you're not mentioning anything about how to reduce Samurai's skill kit to your magical 20 buttons while maintaining the same if not more depth ( as this is a Samurai thread btw... ) I don't even know if you been paying attention to Samurai changes lately? Square has been adding more pointless buttons way after Hissatsu: Kaiten was introduced. From Guren and Senei and Shoha I and II unnecessarily being split.

I will try to explain it better when i am back home, and samurai specific, but i don't think you will agree anyway.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I will try to explain it better when i am back home, and samurai specific, but i don't think you will agree anyway.

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All I play is Samurai 24/7 and nothing else. Self proclaimed Nr1 protester against Kaiten removal. If you think you have a very good rebuttal to keep Kaiten removed and not only that? Trim down Samurai's skill kit down to 20 buttons alone... while maintaining or improving XIV's PvE combat in depth/complexity within FFXIV's current game and Job design? while not insinuating Samurai to be reworked? Consider me impressed.

Though we already theory-crafted everything. Hypothetically speaking... Exclude the non Samurai ( Role ) skills we can press and junction to our Hotbars...

• Sprint
• Limitbreak
• Legsweep
• Tinctures
• True north
• Feint
• Blood Bath
• Arms Length

Leaving Samurai with 27 Samurai buttons.

Next the terrible suggestion to mash all combo buttons into 1 Button merging...

• Hakaze
• Jinpu
• Shifu
• Gekko
• Kasha
• Yukikaze

Beyond a moronic suggestion as this essentially Auto Plays the job for you, but why stop here lets not forget to make the AoE rotation as dumb as that merging the following Buttons...

• Fuko
• Oka
• Mangetsu

We saved 2 this way and we can fuse/merge the following buttons as well

• Senei/Guren
• Shoha/Shoha II
• Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri
• Iaijutsu/Tsubame

To save 4 more buttons. Lets go full stupid and make Meditate a passive cause why the hell wouldn't we wanna make the game even duller ( thanks Square ) and delete positionals cause my favorite ice cream flavor is of course " cardboard flavor " removing true north. With the crème de la crème finish, fusing Kyuten with Shinten to save yet another button.

We come down to Samurai 14 buttons if we did all of the above, but we had 8 non Samurai buttons minus True north cause we're predicting the future here, 14+7=21 buttons.

Even in this extreme example...
Nothing about this improves our gameplay it just makes it terrible / bland / boring and worse it auto plays my Job now. Even if your argument is to give us more mechanics and complex fights, that's still a dumb argument as high end raiding makes up 5% of the games PvE content like Dio mentioned you encourage to make everything else in this game? 95% of all PvE combat content that much more boring by making the jobs as stupid as possible.

Quite naïve of you to think we did nothing in our time coping since Kaiten removal. That we never thought of any other alternatives and outcomes as 6.1 xD? I'm curious to what you have to share and it better not be anything as of what I wrote above... cause a lot of it I quite literally hate the concept of, mhm...

PS: I might or might not have forgotten to add or subtract Kaiten cause I am coping

I see you understand the Problem quite well, but there is no reason to consolidate 1-2-3 combos, it would be enough to merge those that can't be used on its own , there are a few already but many more that needs this adaptation.

Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri is one of the best examples, there is 0 reason to have Ogi Namikiri waste an extra hotkey, you can never use it on its own, by that Logic why doesnt Kaeshi: Namikiri use a seperate hotkey as well?
Why did the Gunbreakers Trigger combo got merged into one Hotkey but not the Red Mages?
Why does Communio on reaper wastes a hotkey when you can only use it after Enshroud?

You can't just stack more and more abilities on the jobs without freeing up some space, that is probably why Kaiten got removed, they added new skills but ran out of space on their PS Controller, so it was the most logical thing to remove a skill that does essentially nothing.

for a start i would be fine with fixing those logical errors on the jobs, that is already a big help.

Also you said you only play Samurai, i think that is a Problem on your side, youre so fixated on one job while i play almost all jobs, so i have a wider knowledge of the entire situation.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri is one of the best examples, there is 0 reason to have Ogi Namikiri waste an extra hotkey, you can never use it on its own, by that Logic why doesnt Kaeshi: Namikiri use a seperate hotkey as well?
Why did the Gunbreakers Trigger combo got merged into one Hotkey but not the Red Mages?
Why does Communio on reaper wastes a hotkey when you can only use it after Enshroud?

You can't just stack more and more abilities on the jobs without freeing up some space, that is probably why Kaiten got removed, they added new skills but ran out of space on their PS Controller, so it was the most logical thing to remove a skill that does essentially nothing. Also you said you only play Samurai, i think that is a Problem on your side, youre so fixated on one job while i play almost all jobs, so i have a wider knowledge of the entire situation.

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The worst part about all of this is you recognize the actual problem and continue labeling Kaiten somehow the one being the problem. Samurai mains would have the most knowledgeable and meaningful input about samurai because...you guessed it...Samurai isn't ninja. Samurai isn't Dragoon. Samurai isn't Red Mage. Samurai is Samurai.

Shoha II added nothing, waste of an ability slot seeing as how it could've just been an upgrade to Shoha
Ogi Namikiri could just replace Ikishoten upon using Ikishoten.
and so on.

We could go on and on with single target abilities having an aoe variant, but at the end of the day the line must be drawn somewhere, and situation dependent. Removing a core part of the job that players who mained the job love isn't the big brain move some people think it is.

Meditate is used purely for downtime periods, guess we should remove that, because that was somehow more useful than the core of the job that buffed every Iaijutsu use apparently.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Save calling something useless for actually useless abilities, like undraw, that somehow survived longer than Kaiten, which actually served purpose.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You can't just stack more and more abilities on the jobs without freeing up some space, that is probably why Kaiten got removed, they added new skills but ran out of space on their PS Controller, so it was the most logical thing to remove a skill that does essentially nothing.

Also you said you only play Samurai, i think that is a Problem on your side, you're so fixated on one job while i play almost all jobs, so i have a wider knowledge of the entire situation.

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It's funny how a GNB main is trying to impose veterancy in experience about SAM matters... when SAM mains tell them otherwise... as guess what? SAM mains...

The Redflag was already saying " Kaiten added nothing " and " Button-Bloat as no other skill had to go first ", using overused year old arguments that we already debunked through the floor it by now has reached the Chinese Servers... Not only that? You don't even play SAM in high-end content. That's the kicker, while complaining about casting as a Tank in P10S ( what in the... ) I really wonder how you would manage it as SAM on M1 spot when a another melee claims M2 doing Plat1 strat, let me know how that goes if you're already complaining about it on Tank.

So far you're bringing ( yet again... ) nothing to the table to improve Samurai's gameplay, nor disproving Kaiten removal's necessity as...

• Samurai's didn't asked for it
• Clearing content with Kaiten was never an issue
• Did not tackle the non-existing button bloat issue
• Also did not reduced our APM
• Our gameplay devolved into Shinten spamming
• Making room for something new that still never came

So much for touting your " Overwhelming knowledge " of having played all the Jobs as all it does to proof to me is that playing a lot? does not by default translate that you know what you're talking about... Nothing about what you say shows that Samurai is better off without Kaiten not functionally nor gameplay wise, and no proof about how to make Samurai a 20 button max job which you claimed is the optimal way to design our jobs btw... and function/play near the same as the current Samurai without a heavy rework to its Job or XIV's fight/combat design. ( where do all these non-Samurai's come from complaining about Kaiten!? )

I could also do the same, barely spend time playing GNB and go to the Tank forum section and lecture everyone how GNB needs to lose half their skill kit. Lose another cartridge why not, that sound really silly... who would ever do that barely playing another job or role and lecture others what should happen to their main jobs? amirite! who would ever do that? ( give back my goddamn Kaiten... )

I don't think there is much else to be said, that has not been said already, so let me use GNB analogy - one of the frequent problems I hear from GNB players is that it can be hard to weave in your mits when you're in your burst phase, so I propose genius solution - just remove continuation.

Continuation is the cause of lack of weave spots (source: idk, I don't even play GNB lol, but trust me, I know better than actual GNB mains) in not only your burst, but every 30s. What's the point of this whole gimmick anyway? It's literally button and action bloat, just put potency into their respective skill in Gnashing Fang combo and Burst strike. It's oGCD for the sake of oGCD, it doesn't add anything of value into the job. Do you like the animation? Oh come on, don't be a baby, only babies care about how does the job feel, everyone knows only relevant factor is that jobs are clean, following all norms, and don't deviate from other jobs.

Sarcasm aside, thinking about continuation, I realized that removing it would make more sense than removing Kaiten. Kaiten was at least relevant because of Kenki management and it made sure you don't spend 1/5th of your time spamming Shinten, but continuation has no gauge, no CD, and you always press it after Gnashing Fang Combo/Burst Strike. "You use X before every Y" - have you heard about this argument before? Funny, right? Gnashing Fang/Burst Strike and continuation is literally "You use X after every Y". So why should it stay in the game, but Kaiten not?

Bring it back!! :mad:

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Originally Posted by Deo14

I don't think there is much else to be said, that has not been said already, so let me use GNB analogy - one of the frequent problems I hear from GNB players is that it can be hard to weave in your mits when you're in your burst phase, so I propose genius solution - just remove continuation.

Continuation is the cause of lack of weave spots (source: idk, I don't even play GNB lol, but trust me, I know better than actual GNB mains) in not only your burst, but every 30s. What's the point of this whole gimmick anyway? It's literally button and action bloat, just put potency into their respective skill in Gnashing Fang combo and Burst strike. It's oGCD for the sake of oGCD, it doesn't add anything of value into the job. Do you like the animation? Oh come on, don't be a baby, only babies care about how does the job feel, everyone knows only relevant factor is that jobs are clean, following all norms, and don't deviate from other jobs.

Sarcasm aside, thinking about continuation, I realized that removing it would make more sense than removing Kaiten. Kaiten was at least relevant because of Kenki management and it made sure you don't spend 1/5th of your time spamming Shinten, but continuation has no gauge, no CD, and you always press it after Gnashing Fang Combo/Burst Strike. "You use X before every Y" - have you heard about this argument before? Funny, right? Gnashing Fang/Burst Strike and continuation is literally "You use X after every Y". So why should it stay in the game, but Kaiten not?

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I mean, you described the answer yourself - in burst phase, its a choice between using Continuation, using mit or trying to weave both and potentially screwing up, which is actually a meaningful choice, as GNB actually has situations where they might have to do something other than Continuation as their oGCD or try and fit two things in same GCD window (which won't always work), unlike SAM's Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I mean, you described the answer yourself - in burst phase, its a choice between using Continuation, using mit or trying to weave both and potentially screwing up, which is actually a meaningful choice, as GNB actually has situations where they might have to do something other than Continuation as their oGCD or try and fit two things in same GCD window (which won't always work), unlike SAM's Kaiten.

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Are you aware that Kaiten did cost 20 Kenki? Are you sure that losing 180/200/240/280 is meaningful choice? It's not really a choice, it's damage control, you might deal more damage if you just clipped it. Even if you wanted to call it a meaningful choice, it's not normal to struggle with double weaving at 2.40+, you would need to have more than 100ms ping to have that problems. So the "choice" comes not from job design, but from terrible server infrastructure.

Arguing about double weaving seems pretty off, SAM also needs to double weave every now and then with Third Eye (burst phase has 15 GCDs with 10-13 oGCDs, so if there's raidwide in burst, you will very likely need to double weave), and sometimes when you didn't keep track of your resources, you need to use Shoha so you won't overwrite meditation stack. Because typical slow SAM has 2.14-2.15 GCD, while GNB has regular 2.40+, it makes SAM more prone to fucking up double weaves. You used to need to always have 1 free weave spot before Iaijutsu for Kaiten, and you even needed to make sure you have 20 Kenki, which is already more involved than just pressing continuation after every Gnashing Fang skill.

Because Kaiten did cost 20 Kaiten, and had strict place in your rotation (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation), you were supposed to use it (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation), if you didn't, you simply lost potency (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation) and it even had some improvisation and choice (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation) - if you had only 10/15 Kenki, you could delay Midare by 1-2 GCD and build that last 5/10 Kenki without overwriting Sen.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

I mean, you described the answer yourself - in burst phase, its a choice between using Continuation, using mit or trying to weave both and potentially screwing up, which is actually a meaningful choice, as GNB actually has situations where they might have to do something other than Continuation as their oGCD or try and fit two things in same GCD window (which won't always work), unlike SAM's Kaiten.

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https://i.ibb.co/wY4qTcV/image.png

Where are all these non-Samurai players coming from DX< !?

Getting the feeling all players do is skim over the skill description and go " Oh you press it here and here always, there for meaningless choice hurr-durr ", while completely ignoring the balancing act you're required to do with Hissatsu: Kaiten and your resource. It's seemingly easy face value yes... way different to keep on doing this to perfection all the time at all levels of content and difficulty. You will mess this up when even the best of players don't have perfect logs all the time, there's no question about this. It's up to you the player your choice to execute perfectly if you can without ever wasting a single Kenki resource with it - and there lies the satisfaction which yes is a choice... you reach perfect execution through your " decision making ".

Analogy... Same way how it's your choice to keep on casting " Dosis III " it's not something that's hard to miss? but to optimally do it all the time and not skip a cast? is something vs the " decision " to not do it or miss-execute it. And we can mock the degree of any skills decision making all we want... yet no one seems to ever do this with Shinten spamming... when it comes to Kaiten's decision making argument... ( Another 1 year old argument... reused... )

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

" Oh you press it here and here always, there for meaningless choice hurr-durr

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You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

I already made some suggestions earlier on how to rework Kaiten.

Ah yeah if you struggle with using mitigation on Gunbreaker because of continuation, thats a skill issue, you don't have to use all your mitigation when the boss is already casting a tankbuster, they last long enough to be used before that.
I often use my Mitigation (20%) 10 seconds before the tankbuster is coming so i don't have to weave it into continuation.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

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Terrible example, it's the same choice. "Do I spend 3k MP on Edge and risk not having enough for TBN when it's needed" vs "Do I spend 25 Kenki on Shinten and risk not having enough for Kaiten when it's needed". Even in your example of "just stay above 20" is the same as DRK, just stay above 3k MP.

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Terrible example, it's the same choice. "Do I spend 3k MP on Edge and risk not having enough for TBN when it's needed" vs "Do I spend 25 Kenki on Shinten and risk not having enough for Kaiten when it's needed". Even in your example of "just stay above 20" is the same as DRK, just stay above 3k MP.

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TBN refunds your MP if used correctly, Kaiten does not refund your Kenki.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

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You... and so many others seem to not grasp...

Shrugging off 20 Kenki for Kaiten and the not often mentioned... holding 100 Kenki at best for Raidbuffs and not overcapping, are decisions you have to make. You lot are not doing your rotation perfectly all the time, every pull, every fight on your own Jobs. I don't even need to look up logs, because we're Human. We're not perfectly playing AI's. The balancing act of it is engaging, fun and yes you come at that conclusion with decision making... when not every fight and situation is the same, when the game gives you so many ways not to do it perfectly? is the literal point of what you all are mockingly pointing out... it's up to the users to create the situation in our rotation and balance our resources perfectly that not even the best of players do perfectly all the time effortlessly. But in there lies the satisfaction of executing something that takes effort to perfectly do all the time consistently? when we're obviously not perfect...

Such bravado to mock it as easy and meaningless... When none of you have a log of perfectly executed Kaiten while perfectly balancing max Kenki for raid bursts, is quite the
boastfulness. I don't even know where this Ego is coming from... maybe I'm that terrible of a player. Heck I'll be surprised if they do it with something lesser which is the current awful " Shinten Spamming " with getting AST cards, which even this? is also never mentioned by Kaiten nay-sayers... when are you all defending Shinten Spamming for how much more better/functional/satisfying/complex it is? that's what I like to know... as that's the current alternative due to not having Kaiten anymore.

Even then! I still do not know where all these Non Samurai's come from to Samurai threads, lecturing Samurai mains on what they should like more! That's another thing we're not even at the subjectively finding something more Fun part of this back and forth... we're only at functionality which we're going in circles cause people are sadly like a pile of bricks XD !!

Which is fine! we get to entertain my favorite hobby which is bumping Kaiten threads all day " Cause I want Kaiten back!! " mhm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

TBN refunds your MP if used correctly, Kaiten does not refund your Kenki.

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Now you're just trying to grasp any straw to make your argument seem worth something. If you want to follow these stupid straws, then how about dark arts? If TBN pops, you have "free" charge of edge of shadow, which puts you in the "must always use" situation, there is no case where you don't want to use it. Inb4 you say that "choice" is using ST or AoE version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

TBN refunds your MP if used correctly, Kaiten does not refund your Kenki.

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So? Kaiten doesn't need to refund because the damage is baked into the attack you're using, TBN wouldn't (ideally) be used at all if it didn't refund via Dark Arts. The difference in the decision making between Kaiten and TBN is when they get used; Kaiten for Iaijutsu and TBN for incoming damage. As far as gauge management and usage, it's still the same choice being made; can I get away with X and will I have enough for Y later?

TBN has just as much of a "need" to be used as Kaiten does, otherwise I'd hate to be the healer in that group.

What if we made Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki then, same result but still saves a hotkey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

What if we made Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki then, same result but still saves a hotkey.

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https://i.ibb.co/Br1mvQr/Nommers.gif

Someone should quote this and put that into their signature at this point.

While a slightly better proposition that keeps Kenki management, it's also more punishing in that it now forces 20 Kenki, whereas messing up Kenki management with Kaiten as a dedicated button means that, while damage is still lost, it's less destructive to a rotation overall than overcapping on a Sen. There'd also be the issue of earlier levels not having Kenki, as well as the earliest levels with Kenki not generating enough to use Iaijutsu, which would cause a lot of other potential imbalances if you decided to just increase the amount of Kenki generated at those levels.

The big thing Kaiten did overall was marry the sub-mechanic of Kenki with the main mechanic of Sen, bringing the kit into a more cohesive whole rather than two disparate mechanics that just happen to exist. It's what made pre-6.1 Samurai such a well designed job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

What if we made Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki then, same result but still saves a hotkey.

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Aaaaand we've made 3rd lap today, woo! Alright, then let's go back to GNB - why can't we bake Continuation's potencies into Gnashing Fang combo and Burst Strike, but making animation lock of each Gnashing skill GCD take same time as GCD+oGCD, so it has exact weaving managment (in this case, equivalent to Kenki management), which has exact same result, but saves a hotkey. Pretty dumb, right?

Also you get first Iaijutsu at 30, but you start to get Kenki at 52.

The ultimate result of only caring about button bloat, without any regard for what buttons you end up culling, ends up inevitably with something closer to healer "rotations". You could easily argue "oh, Shinten spam is meaningless, just add 50/100 extra potency to the weaponskills that give Kenki instead", after all, "it saves a hotkey". One step further might be "Oh we don't need Yukikaze, Midare can be one Sen, and Higanbana removed", since it will "save a hotkey".

I'm all for merging and culling when it's called for, but Kaiten wasn't one of those times, I'd rather have condensed weaponskill combos long before seeing Kaiten removed although that's a discussion for another time.

Kaiten will come back in 7.0 as a two minute cd skill that gives everyone one basic combo skill a 1% crit increase. Calling it now.

Bring Back Kaiten

as long as it's an ability that has a 5 second, costs 20 Kenki and contributes to all Weaponskills in some meaningful way, we're good. Preferably be Kaiten the Skill that Introduces the Kenki Resource, how it used to be. Because with Kaiten it doesn't matter what else they'll add to the Samurai, The Job will be Fun once more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

What if we made Iaijutsu cost 20 kenki then, same result but still saves a hotkey.

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Ehhh Iaijutsu and Kenki are seperate things, yes Kaiten was the Skill that made them work together, but that's why at least I want Kaiten.
Kaiten gave Kenki the reason to exist, unlike Shinten which on it's own is just a burst and in turn reduces Kenki as an added Burst Resource.
Which is the Current State of the Samurai: Do your lvl50 Rotation, spam Shinten (in single target situtaions) and do cool stuff every 2minutes at lvl70+&90.
against the State of the Samurai before 6.1: Do Kaiten on every Big Weaponskill, yes even the really Big Ones, Kaiten costs 20 Kenki, Happy Resource Management.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...c053c676194ad&

I want to Thank these Cosplayer :D
They made my Day^^

It's hard to believe that the people in charge of job design know what they're doing with some of the recent decisions they've made as of recently. Of course, there is the obvious example of Samurai, but there are plenty of other examples as well. Monk is one example, with the deletion of most of their positional, and what I feel is the destruction of one of their core job concepts. I personally don't like positional very much, BUT THAT'S WHY I DON'T PLAY MONK. Leave it for those who enjoy it, and people who don't can go play a different job. I played quite a bit of Paladin before it's rework, and thoroughly enjoyed what I played. It's use of its two buff windows felt extremely unique, and the subtle optimizations inside it felt extremely good to pull off. Now? Its all gone, something hollow in its place. They ALMOST did the exact same with dragoon, but thankfully the backlash from the community made them back off. DRAGOON! I have never felt a job that feels as good as dragoon does right now. That they thought it needed a rework is absurd.

I can only pray that some day they change their philosophy on job design and become more adventurous, allowing each job to fill a specific niche in what different players want to experience while in combat. I fear for the upcoming expansion, because it means the dragoon will change. I wish I didn't have to fear change, but with their recent butchering of some of the last jobs offering unique gameplay designs, I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spigg

It's hard to believe that the people in charge of job design know what they're doing with some of the recent decisions they've made as of recently. Of course, there is the obvious example of Samurai, but there are plenty of other examples as well. Monk is one example, with the deletion of most of their positional, and what I feel is the destruction of one of their core job concepts. I personally don't like positional very much, BUT THAT'S WHY I DON'T PLAY MONK. Leave it for those who enjoy it, and people who don't can go play a different job. I played quite a bit of Paladin before it's rework, and thoroughly enjoyed what I played. It's use of its two buff windows felt extremely unique, and the subtle optimizations inside it felt extremely good to pull off. Now? Its all gone, something hollow in its place. They ALMOST did the exact same with dragoon, but thankfully the backlash from the community made them back off. DRAGOON! I have never felt a job that feels as good as dragoon does right now. That they thought it needed a rework is absurd.

I can only pray that some day they change their philosophy on job design and become more adventurous, allowing each job to fill a specific niche in what different players want to experience while in combat. I fear for the upcoming expansion, because it means the dragoon will change. I wish I didn't have to fear change, but with their recent butchering of some of the last jobs offering unique gameplay designs, I do.

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It's kinda funny that they reverted the DRG Changes of 6.1 even though they just made a Macro that I had for year official and then they revert it.. I wonder what other Gameplay Change was highly disliked.. Oh yeah the Kaiten Removal! Regarding the PLD Changes I am glad that it's still playable at the very least but Goring Blade is at a wierd spot and that Dual Buff Rotation Gameplay is gone. But regarding Kaiten, we need a Hattrick!

What I mean is that Bring Back Kaiten-Sign on Stage of the Cosplay Contest. The Cosplayers in Las Vegas did Good that Day but we need that on Stages of London and Japan aswell!
Let the Devs know in all regions that we want them to Bring Back Kaiten!

I did the Rising Event Quest Today and I think it was fine but I can't help but feel the shallowness of the praise this Game is getting. I really think that as long as your Job plays well in this Game, you can be blissfully ignorant to the wierd design decisions in this Game. But once they screwed over your Job, you really feel left abandoned and I seriously wonder will FFXIV end up has glorified Cutscene Viewer? As long as the MSQ is fine, nobody seem to care in the long run. Which is why that Samurai Cosplayer made us so happy, as a reminder that we're not alone. Where I hope that Samurai Cosplayers in other regions will pick up on it and continue to signal boost our wish. On another Note, I'm curious what needs to happen that causes the Fall of FFXIV. Not that I want that but if you accostumed to greatness all the time.. that 'greatness' becomes mundane.

Though that doesn't mean that it's bad if you enjoyed this year's Rising Event.
I'm glad if you found enjoyment, as for me.. Man that Kupo Adventure Mini Game is just the Best addition to FFXIV I have ever seen (since they removed Kaiten) I mean it's kinda funny how the Endwalker Hildibrand Questline and those Mini Game Addtions provide me with more Enjoyment than the Main Game! Just a Shame that there isn't an Endless Mode for Kupo Adventure.