Disappointed in one Endwalker Aspect [SPOILERS]

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Have you read the short story An Unpromised Tomorrow?

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I haven't! I didn't even know that story existed, thank you!

Well in that case, I hope you enjoy it. And the rest of them. The Tales from the (X) short stories are all quite good. New ones are added every year during The Rising, I believe.

Except we later learn from Argos that we're in a causal loop, so even if we don't have a "script" so to speak one is still in play and the outcome of events on Elpis have already been determined as far as our ability to perceive time goes. There could be other timelines but our objective was not to create new timelines or try to save the World Unsundered; it was to learn about what set the Final Days in motion and why, and in so doing figure out a way to stop the apocalypse on Etheriys as we know it. We found what we were looking for and entrusted the past to Venat, who in some tessellation(s) of time's infinite pathways was able to change things in ways we can only speculate... but our Venat was not.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

We found what we were looking for and entrusted the past to Venat, who in some tessellation(s) of time's infinite pathways was able to change things in ways we can only speculate... .

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Headcanon Time: New Game + is a result of our meeting of Venat in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I suppose that Emet doesn't sit well with you either, being the founder of said Garlean Empire and being responsible for pretty much everything you described. Nor does your own character, and the countless lives that you've ruined as the 'Weapon of Light'. Or anyone with authority, for that matter. Someone who can't live with the weight of their decisions has no business making them.

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I should think you quite satisfied with such a notion given your obvious criticisms.

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It's actually really, really easy to draw philosophical parallels between Venat and the Dark Knight questline. Not altogether surprising when you consider the lead writer.

'To live is to suffer. And in suffering find strength, and purpose, and hope.'
'To walk the path is to suffer. To sacrifice. But we must never lose sight of why we chose to walk it.'

I'll let you tell me who said what.

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The highlight tells you why Venat and the ideals in the DRK quests are not equivalent. Dark Knights choose to walk their path. Venat forced all of humanity and WoL on to the path and ideals that she wanted. Venat's deeds are antithetical to the rights of freedom and self-determination, and as such she is not in keeping with the ideals of WoL-as-Azem.

Indeed the differences in thinking and methods between the two are hinted at by the Twelve. Ever since the Azem reveal people have wondered why Azeyma shares the name and symbolism rather than the more clear parallel of the wanderer Oschon. Now though it appears as though Azeyma - A goddess of the scales of judgement that punishes sinners that don't live up to her standards - is clearly in reference to Venat-as-Azem, not WoL. On top of this, while Azeyma's symbol is the sun, her actual title is keeper of the sun, which is a fitting description of Venat/Hydaelyn's relationship with WoL.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The highlight tells you why Venat and the ideals in the DRK quests are not equivalent. Dark Knights choose to walk their path. Venat forced all of humanity and WoL on to the path and ideals that she wanted. Venat's deeds are antithetical to the rights of freedom and self-determination, and as such she is not in keeping with the ideals of WoL-as-Azem.

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Remember, DRKs walk their path and will do whatever it takes to get the job done, even if it means causing undue suffering on others. Venat did much the same, and could almost be considered a DRK (much like Emet-Selch). She sacrificed the honor and kindness, along with a willingness to do things within the rules, to become the blade that would keep going on towards her goal much like a vigilante, no matter how much suffering would become of it to others and herself. To top this, at ANY point she could have just let the Ascians fulfill their desires and get Zodiark back, but did not falter. She CHOSE to keep going, no matter how much suffering her choices had caused.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I thought the matter of Hydaelyn tempering us was pretty settled when we learned that the blessing of light was a simple traveller's ward that protects against aetheric corruption.

Indeed, it seems like Hydaelyn'a whole philosphy is about giving you the means to think, wander, feel... etc. for yourself. Something the spirit of tempering goes against.

Also, tempering was something that could be scientifically and objectively measured by characters in the world. And cured. If we were tempered surely someone would have given us a porxie.

Also, the conversation with Y'sthola has her showing up and examining you too see if your aether was corrupted, like it was back in the first. And she saw nothing out of the ordinary.

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Personally I thought the matter of Hydaelyn tempering us was pretty settled when Ifrit directly and clearly stated that we weren't back in A Realm Reborn. Like, if anyone can be considered a subject matter expert in what tempering looks like, surely it's Ifrit. But since I know not everyone agrees with me that he can be considered an authoritative source, I went elsewhere, since the people that disagree with that usually consider either the Scions or (more often) the Ascians to be authoritative.

Basically the only prediction in all of Endwalker that I absolutely nailed was 'people who think the Blessing is tempering wouldn't believe Hydaelyn herself coming down and saying it wasn't', and sure enough, she did exactly that and people didn't believe her!

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

To top this, at ANY point she could have just let the Ascians fulfill their desires and get Zodiark back, but did not falter.

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Could she? It seemed like she could do very little to prevent the ascians from rejoining seven times over, it doesn't seem like she had any control over the matter one way or the other. And the one who actually stopped them from doing it any more was the WoL, not Hydaelyn.

Edit: There's also the fact that letting the ascians get what they want and bring back Zodiark means allowing at least seven more genocides, which is sort of bad.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

Could she? It seemed like she could do very little to prevent the ascians from rejoining seven times over, it doesn't seem like she had any control over the matter one way or the other. And the one who actually stopped them from doing it any more was the WoL, not Hydaelyn.

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The issue is that when it comes to starting a Calamity, the Ascians only have to win once. We know that there have been other Warriors of Light who stopped catastrophic events that could have led to Calamity, but all it takes is for a group to fail for one to happen.

The Zodiac Braves sealed up Ultima and Tenzen sealed Koryu. We don't know how much the Ascians could have been involved since we don't have their point of view, but Hydaelyn did recognize a danger and call people to power who then stopped said dangers.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

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Everyone chose to walk their respective paths. When you get down to it, Temple Knight A might just be starting their first day on the job, with a family to feed. Perhaps they look after stray cats in their free time and mind an elderly neighbor. They never caused any harm to anyone. And then wham, Azem shows up out of nowhere and kills them. Did they have any choice about how their path ended? 'So many broken by this world, then by you.' You can apply this line of reasoning to pretty much anyone that you dislike in game. Except for maybe Zenos, who would school you with it like he did Jullus.

It's actually Urianger who puts forward the idea that there's a connection between Azem, Azeyma, keeper of the Sun, and Azim, the Dawn Father. The glyph on the Azem soul crystal is the symbol for the sun.

As for the twelve, while there may be a link with the Convocation, most of them stayed within the walls of Amaurot. I'm more inclined to suspect that there's a connection with Radz-al-Han's Tales of the Braves (not to be confused with the Ivalice version):
'In an era long since ended
When chaos reigned o'er all the land
Did valiant souls take up the fight
To bring forth Light and cast out Dark
They numbered Twelve, no more nor less.'[1]

I haven't gone through the Relic weapons lore yet to see which ones are accounted for; it may be that we have ten names from the original relics and Azeyma and Menphina are the two unaccounted for. But who knows.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Remember, DRKs walk their path and will do whatever it takes to get the job done, even if it means causing undue suffering on others. Venat did much the same,

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DRK doesn't target random people. Venat forced all of mankind to "walk the path" and suffer without their consent. There is clearly an element of personal choice for DRKs, both for taking up the job and interpreting it's meaning, that Venat did not afford the Ancients.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Everyone chose to walk their respective paths. When you get down to it, Temple Knight A might just be starting their first day on the job, with a family to feed. Perhaps they look after stray cats in their free time and mind an elderly neighbor. They never caused any harm to anyone. And then wham, Azem shows up out of nowhere and kills them. Did they have any choice about how their path ended?

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If Temple Knight A wasn't going out of his way to defend someone perpetrating great evil he would have been fine. The knights we kill in the DRK quests are characterized as being part of an extremist, outrageously corrupt sect of the church that intentionally preys upon normal Ishgardian citizens. I mean they were literally just going around picking random maidens off the street to abuse.

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It's actually Urianger who puts forward the idea that there's a connection between Azem, Azeyma, keeper of the Sun, and Azim, the Dawn Father. The glyph on the Azem soul crystal is the symbol for the sun.

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Yes, and I'm saying that the Azem referenced by Azeyma is clearly more akin to Venat than how Azem is described.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

There are three problems with that line of thinking:

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I worded that pretty poorly didn't I, in hindsight I can think of a better way to phrase what I meant in regards to that Elidibus conversation. I think what I did was mix this part of his dialogue with a previous/future part, I can't remember if it came before or after, where he hints at having seen us, as in the player character, in past Elpis. As someone who has seen pre-destination paradoxes before, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban as an example, that line told me that we couldn't change the past because we were already a part of a closed loop that Elidibus had experienced parts of. I also think this is reinforced by the fact that during the first conversation with Venat/Hydaelyn on the boat to Sharlayan she mentions a confluence of her time and ours, something that immediately had me thinking we were eventually going to time-travel and the wording of which implies that the timelines are merging or there is/was a pre-destination paradox.

i'd always called that she was good, there was never any hint that she was evil, this story decision makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The first is that everything Elidibus knows about time travel, as far as we know, comes from him studying G'raha's memories.

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Thanks for the excellent explanation! I often forget that when G'raha embarked upon his mission that no one knew what the result would be and it was assumed both he and his original timeline would cease to exist if he succeeded in preventing the First from rejoining.

At any rate, there was cause to believe that the Ancients could be saved and, even if there weren't, a common sentiment expressed is that people wanted to save them.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

I wasn't disappointed that Hydaelyn didn't turn out to be "evil." I was disappointed because I kind of went into EW hoping we would end up exploring a "third option" that I felt was hinted at back in Shb since we know Azem left the convocation and also did not respond to Venat's group. It would have been interesting for the writers to touch on something like that. My headcanon right now is that Azem didn't agree with either side and was trying to find a 3rd option.

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If this was a single player game then I’m pretty sure the third option would have been the past Azem gaining the memories of the future Azem (us) in a way reminiscent of Nebula in Avengers: Endgame, which also featured time travel shenanigans.

Past Azem would have then begun a mission to track down Meteion and end the whole thing outright.

But this is an MMO so it has to be fairly linear.

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Originally Posted by Lium

If this was a single player game then I’m pretty sure the third option would have been the past Azem gaining the memories of the future Azem (us) in a way reminiscent of Nebula in Avengers: Endgame, which also featured time travel shenanigans.

Past Azem would have then begun a mission to track down Meteion and end the whole thing outright.

But this is an MMO so it has to be fairly linear.

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It’s possible we’re still working toward a third option with Azem. They’ve dropped so many clues - and it would be very easy (both story-wise, and technology-wise) to handwave our/Azem’s inclusion. It’s very likely we either meet Azem - or actually are Azem through time travel shenanigans.

My guess is the game will simply use our model, and explain that Azem prefers this form (which is why we got physical transformation plot points in Endwalker for Hermes and the Ancients).

Or, we may actually enter a loading screen - to create an Azem of our liking in the character creator.

Either is possible… Although I’m leaning toward them just using our character model. It may fit in lore-wise regarding a connection to the “new life” meant to be sacrificed to Zodiark, and the creation of the playable in-game races. Azem’s “third option” may have to do with defending the new life, while the Venat and Zodiark factions fight it out. Makes sense for Azem to defend the defenseless.

Literally this

I am sure the art team can create an approximation of Azem based on each race, gender and face type. Azem can easily have their own unique hairstyle too, and just make one face per each race/gender combo that kinda looks like the chosen WoL.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

It’s possible we’re still working toward a third option with Azem. They’ve dropped so many clues - and it would be very easy (both story-wise, and technology-wise) to handwave our/Azem’s inclusion. It’s very likely we either meet Azem - or actually are Azem through time travel shenanigans.

My guess is the game will simply use our model, and explain that Azem prefers this form (which is why we got physical transformation plot points in Endwalker for Hermes and the Ancients).

Or, we may actually enter a loading screen - to create an Azem of our liking in the character creator.

Either is possible… Although I’m leaning toward them just using our character model. It may fit in lore-wise regarding a connection to the “new life” meant to be sacrificed to Zodiark, and the creation of the playable in-game races. Azem’s “third option” may have to do with defending the new life, while the Venat and Zodiark factions fight it out. Makes sense for Azem to defend the defenseless.

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This is an interesting point.

The third option actually is Azem.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

It’s possible we’re still working toward a third option with Azem. They’ve dropped so many clues - and it would be very easy (both story-wise, and technology-wise) to handwave our/Azem’s inclusion. It’s very likely we either meet Azem - or actually are Azem through time travel shenanigans.

My guess is the game will simply use our model, and explain that Azem prefers this form (which is why we got physical transformation plot points in Endwalker for Hermes and the Ancients).

Or, we may actually enter a loading screen - to create an Azem of our liking in the character creator.

Either is possible… Although I’m leaning toward them just using our character model. It may fit in lore-wise regarding a connection to the “new life” meant to be sacrificed to Zodiark, and the creation of the playable in-game races. Azem’s “third option” may have to do with defending the new life, while the Venat and Zodiark factions fight it out. Makes sense for Azem to defend the defenseless.

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There's the possibility of us seeing Azem wearing a mask, look away, cut back to them wearing a different one, and the gag continues while with him. Make Azem somewhat of a gag character who does that sort of thing but is dangerously competent in battle. Then probably have them looking like us at one point and saying, "Yeah, I can see why I'd choose this form, something about it just...screams me."

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There's the possibility of us seeing Azem wearing a mask, look away, cut back to them wearing a different one, and the gag continues while with him. Make Azem somewhat of a gag character who does that sort of thing but is dangerously competent in battle. Then probably have them looking like us at one point and saying, "Yeah, I can see why I'd choose this form, something about it just...screams me."

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I wouldn’t mind an Azem storyline that’s one part dramatic - and one part Hildibrand (:

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Originally Posted by Lium

This is an interesting point.

The third option actually is Azem.

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Maybe this is why the whole Venat/Zodiark debate is well, debatable? Eventually we’ll get to weigh in through an Azem storyline, and pick some (likely not too important) dialogue to voice how we feel about it - once we get the whole picture through Azem.

I kind of doubt it because SE has been pretty adamant that the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story arc is now over, so I can't see them revisiting it. Not in gameplay anyway. Maybe as a side story on the Lodestone or even as a novel.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I kind of doubt it because SE has been pretty adamant that the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story arc is now over, so I can't see them revisiting it. Not in gameplay anyway. Maybe as a side story on the Lodestone or even as a novel.

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I think “the end” is more that we’re not gonna hear from Hydaelyn or be threatened by Zodiark any more. Plenty to do with Azem, since we’re still “leveling up” by collecting pieces of our soul - and the writers have seeded a mystery surrounding what Azem’s been up to for the last couple expansions.

I still think that we never will get a definitive Azem Answer to this question, specifically because Azem is intended to be our avatar.

The Zodiark/Hydaelyn thing was intentionally left morally open, with neither side being definitively right or wrong (Hydaelyn ended up being strategically correct, but that's rather different), and it's for that reason the writers left Azem neutral; because whichever side Azem favored would then become the implicitly correct decision. By the same token, Azem cannot then pioneer a third option, because the fact Azem is behind it then implicitly means it's the right one, and so both Zodiark and Hydaelyn become the incorrect choices.

It's similar to when a game has multiple endings, yet only one is the 'true' or 'perfect' ending where everything is resolved or that just has more content; the existence of that ending means that all other endings are 'false' endings, thereby declaring all reasoning that leads to those endings to be wrong.

Essentially: the fact people are sure Azem had a better idea is the reason that we should never hear if Azem had a better idea.

Azem 'defected' even prior to the decision to summon Zodiark. Venat's faction 'sent word' to Azem, but it's not clear if they actually made contact. It's unclear if this was related to the Convocation's discussion or something even earlier.

I would laugh if we ever get a cutscene of Azem chasing an orias holding a certain green soul crystal into a portal, only to find themselves... in a swamp, with a bow on the ground and a Morbol up ahead.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Essentially: the fact people are sure Azem had a better idea is the reason that we should never hear if Azem had a better idea.

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I'm of the mindset that Azem didn't have a better idea...but instead there was another threat just as big that needed to be dealt with. Such a thing would make for a good overarching problem for the next big story arc, especially if it's "unfinished business" for Azem.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Them continuing to sacrifice is pure headcanon. There’s nothing hinting towards that at all. The 3rd sacrifice was to bring their people back, what reason would they have to continue sacrificing? She also didn’t have a lot of supporters. Pretty sure it’s mentioned to have been about a dozen, of whom she didn’t even tell what her actual plans were which we have proof of due to anamnesis.

As far as this expansion goes though, i do heavily agree it was played safe. There were basically zero long lasting consequences despite this being an apocalypse that one almost destroyed the entire planet. We only see the actual final days occur in two zones, whereas we merely see a few blasphemies pop up in eorzean zones. Pretty sad as many people were expecting more considering the trailer had the entire eorzean map on fire.

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Its because it’s an MMO not a single player game where you can drastically and permanently alter the game world for everyone.

Unless you want to phase the game for the entire population.

WoW changed a lot of the vanilla zones in Cataclysm and very few people look back at that fondly.

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Originally Posted by Denishia

On the in-game character making physical reactions that I as the player didn't feel- having to WoL reach out distract towards Emet Selch I felt was very unearned, because Shadowbringer nor Endwalker did NOT do anything to reverse my opinion of his personality as not merely unpleasant with negative charisma but an amalgamation of every horrible condescending coworker and boss I've had to suffer through and his motivations as contrary to mine own (I would have loved a joke response to his demand that I tell him info because of his position on the Convocation with a snarky, "My only interaction with the Convocation is murdering them because they kill trying to murder me"). He and Hythlodaeus might have been Azem's good friends- but me-as-the-WoL did not have a positive emotional attachment to them.

To me, Hades is treated far more heroically and sympathetically than I feel justified and that his overwhelming continued presence and treatment inside the game was colored by his popularity outside of it.

I agree that the why the story writes the relationship with Zenos is another were me as the player is emotionally disconnecting from what me-as-the-WoL is written to feel. I don't desire to fight him because I found him boring, both as a character and his actual fights, so if the in-game model was more accurate, it'd be eyerolls instead of clenched fists.

But that is to say- how one reacts to characters is subjective. And after so many complaints about the WoL standing expressionless during cutscenes or only nodding, these later expansions are starting to address those complaints by adding in reactions- which means not all will land.

And XIV isn't an open sandbox game, at least not the MSQ, nor does it have branching paths, so the single path that it does have has clearly defined protagonists and antagonists and supporting cast and one side will be the protagonists' side and the other given the focus needed to make antagonists work for the story.

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You're definitely not alone in the lack of empathy towards Emet. I like him as a villain but I definitely do not like the hipocrisy in some of his fanbase.
It's weird how all these people looking for virtue signaling seem to love Emet despite him being directly responsible for a genocide brought upon a continent of people who were just trying to live in peace after fleeing from a star that had just been destroyed by invaders. And, y'know, multiple other genocides. That one just stands out to me as the cruelest.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I still think that we never will get a definitive Azem Answer to this question, specifically because Azem is intended to be our avatar.

The Zodiark/Hydaelyn thing was intentionally left morally open, with neither side being definitively right or wrong (Hydaelyn ended up being strategically correct, but that's rather different), and it's for that reason the writers left Azem neutral; because whichever side Azem favored would then become the implicitly correct decision. By the same token, Azem cannot then pioneer a third option, because the fact Azem is behind it then implicitly means it's the right one, and so both Zodiark and Hydaelyn become the incorrect choices.

It's similar to when a game has multiple endings, yet only one is the 'true' or 'perfect' ending where everything is resolved or that just has more content; the existence of that ending means that all other endings are 'false' endings, thereby declaring all reasoning that leads to those endings to be wrong.

Essentially: the fact people are sure Azem had a better idea is the reason that we should never hear if Azem had a better idea.

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I think maybe they’ve laid out some pretty clear game mechanics (collecting Azem pieces) and mentioned Azem too many times to have them just be background dressing. It feels pretty likely that we’re gonna get them at some point, in some fashion.

And personally, I’m of the school that both Venat and the Convocation were wrong. The Convocation wanted to sacrifice the “new life” innocents, and Venat de-powered/mind-wiped an entire planet without their consent.

In either version, I can’t see our prototypical WOL (Azem) agreeing. Nor can I see Azem’s little band of proto-Scions agreeing. So I’m holding out hope we get to see/hear/play Azem to flesh out that bit of story. I imagine it would/could echo the same problem facing our WOL and the Scions in regards to the moon evacuation (:

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Originally Posted by Lium

WoW changed a lot of the vanilla zones in Cataclysm and very few people look back at that fondly.

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I was not a fan of the revamp. It wasn't because I was necessarily against the idea, initially I was excited, but it was poorly executed. Some zones retained their original charm while others bore no resemblance to their pre-cataclysm state. It'd be like turning Thanalan into an underwater zone, too much.

WoW would have had something like specialty Final Days FATEs around the world at minimum. FFXIV seems to handle phasing well, so I wouldn't think that beyond their capabilities. I haven't played GW2 in forever, but I remember one of their early Living Story chapters trashed the middle of a zone that was just an open field. Aside from the tower they put there being an eyesore, nothing else was lost.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I think maybe they’ve laid out some pretty clear game mechanics (collecting Azem pieces) and mentioned Azem too many times to have them just be background dressing. It feels pretty likely that we’re gonna get them at some point, in some fashion.

And personally, I’m of the school that both Venat and the Convocation were wrong. The Convocation wanted to sacrifice the “new life” innocents, and Venat de-powered/mind-wiped an entire planet without their consent.

In either version, I can’t see our prototypical WOL (Azem) agreeing. Nor can I see Azem’s little band of proto-Scions agreeing. So I’m holding out hope we get to see/hear/play Azem to flesh out that bit of story. I imagine it would/could echo the same problem facing our WOL and the Scions in regards to the moon evacuation (:

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Yeah, kinda proving my point there. You want Azem to provide the True Answer, thereby declaring both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides to have the Wrong Answer. Which is gonna peeve people off if they agreed with one of those sides, just in the same way that you'd be mad if Azem turned up only to say 'actually Hydaelyn was right all along'.

I don't think we'll ever actually see Azem. But if we ever do, or get an idea of what they were up to, I think they were off doing something entirely different. Maybe fighting some Secret Greater Evil (although I think if done poorly that could cause a similar problem; 'both sides were blind to the real evil'), but I would personally prefer it if it wasn't anything greater, and they were just... off doing the Azem Thing. Just because bigger problems exist, doesn't mean smaller problems stop happening, and it does nobody any good if those are left to fester.

I'd honestly be fine on him/her refusing on the grounds of him/her not wanting to lose some of his/her dear friends. I mean Hythlodeaus volunteered, they chose Elidibus as the heart and Venat became the heart of Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, kinda proving my point there. You want Azem to provide the True Answer, thereby declaring both the Zodiark and Hydaelyn sides to have the Wrong Answer. Which is gonna peeve people off if they agreed with one of those sides, just in the same way that you'd be mad if Azem turned up only to say 'actually Hydaelyn was right all along'.

I don't think we'll ever actually see Azem. But if we ever do, or get an idea of what they were up to, I think they were off doing something entirely different. Maybe fighting some Secret Greater Evil (although I think if done poorly that could cause a similar problem; 'both sides were blind to the real evil'), but I would personally prefer it if it wasn't anything greater, and they were just... off doing the Azem Thing. Just because bigger problems exist, doesn't mean smaller problems stop happening, and it does nobody any good if those are left to fester.

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I dunno, it kinda feels like the story so far has condemned both Hydaelyn and the Convocation - so I’m not too sure the writers will be worried about hurting peoples’ feelings. They’ve already pointed out that the Sundering was terrible/wrong, but also the only option ultimately taken… except for the narrative trap-door they gave themselves with Azem.

The problems the Ancients faced are so similar to what the Scions are facing with the moon evacuation - it just feels like we’re seeing the groundwork for some kind of storytelling symmetry here. Azem’s story is so closely tied with Venat at this point - it feels logical that they’d use Azem to tidy up a few plot points.

Mind you - those plot points could be handled in a similar way to how they dodged expectations with the EW Zodiark fight. We could potentially get an Azem storyline where Azem is like: “Yeah. I didn’t like the idea of me or my closest friends getting split apart and memory-wiped - but I also didn’t like seeing all my “new life” friends getting zapped for Zodiark. So instead - I went and helped my friends build a time machine city robot named Alexi The First. Yeah. That’s right. I like grapes and time machines. But then, man o man - we discovered space dragons and it became a whole thing. Like, we had to go to their planet. One of them came here with her son - this cute lil’ guy named Middy. Ultimately I was able to save my friends by putting them in the time machine - but then I got stuck in the Sundering and it was a real bummer. Hey WOL - I’m glad you found a shard of my soul out in the Void and helped restore its memories in this MSQ chapter of the 7.0 Void Expansion.”

The above is a bit tongue in cheek, but it could end up being that we do indeed deal with Azem content - but it takes a sharp turn after just touching upon the Sundering. Maybe it’s just a launching point?

I am of two minds with Azem. I of course am curious how they were and what they have done but at the same time I am like: Would it matter?

Even if they did search for another way they failed. They failed because history is as we know it is. (I guess one could argue that this would at least prove that these two ways with Zodiark and Hydealyn were the only solutions but even Azem is not all-knowing)

I also doubt that they just casually had a time machine. (Emet was really curious about the time traveling that Graha had done) In my mind Azem probably tried to save as many people from outside Amaurot as they could. No bigger evil, no plan to stop whats coming, just them going around helping as many people as they could.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I am of two minds with Azem. I of course am curious how they were and what they have done but at the same time I am like: Would it matter?
(Snipped for space)

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Azem could matter for a few reasons I suppose.

1) Azem (and their shards/pieces) are a clear game mechanic that the writers/designers seem pretty keen on continuing to use. Call them “Chekhov’s Soul Shards” in that they’ve been mentioned, (and we know how many there are) - so it’s likely we’re going to see more of them as the story goes on. It would be a very odd plot-line to abandon - given it relates directly to the player character.

2) Azem relates directly to the player character. There’s been some argument that somehow Azem’s closeness to the player character will mean we won’t see Azem included - because it could conflict with headcanon. This has never stopped the writers before (see almost every major quest where we have to make an important decision - or are simply not allowed to decide). We’ll likely get some dialogue options to help give the illusion of choice - but really Azem is all about the story the writer’s want to tell.

3) Azem is a story device that could be described as an “ace in the hole.” Azem is a character held back, on reserve - until the writers know when/how they’d like to use them. Right now, we can only really speculate what Azem was up to - but the writers have taken time to mention Azem again and again - with the likely intention to someday use Azem when they have a particular story need. As far as what that particular need might be - our clues point toward it having something to do with/during the Sundering - but not necessarily involving either Venat or the Convocation.

4) Azem is the Sundering POV. Our character only exists because Azem got split into 14 pieces. At some point we’ll likely find out how that happened to Azem, what they were doing when it happened, and how they felt about it.

5) Azem is a solution to failure, and possibly a narrative twist. Because we don’t know what Azem was up to - or even who they really were - the writers are in a position to use Azem as a “get out of jail free” card. It’s entirely possible Azem did not fail at whatever they were doing (whether it was monster punching - or searching for an alternative to the Sundering). We may just not know the solution yet - because we haven’t met Azem yet (:

Given the list I made above - I think it’s possible we’ll get a playable/play-alongside Azem storyline, where we run the whole gamut of Final Fantasy questing. We’ll likely beat up Big Bads, visit strange new worlds - and also wander around collecting fire wood for strangers.

As far as time machines go - that was in jest. We all know Urianger is the one secretly from another time (;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

(bla bla bla) ..it might be time to admit you're not onto something.

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"That’s just like your opinion, man." -- The Dude

No need for salt.

My opinion is still that we exhibit every sign of tempering. That's what is happening in the opening cutscenes. It just happens to be that instead of placing you on a path to get her more and more aether she commands you to have free will. So is it the SAME as normal tempering, sure no; but only because of how she uses it.

Tempering works just like the echo, only at a smaller scale for smaller primals. That's not a coincidence so your conclusions about the writers is not really warranted. It's also the case that Ascians do constantly suggest you should be skeptical of your drive to support her.

Similarly it explains just why is it that, though you have all these choices, the outcomes send you down a set path. Gradually sending you on a journey to fulfill her singular goal -- the goal in Venat's mind when summoning Hydaelyn

Venat knows that we must answer Meteion's question, as I previously stated, which is:
"I wish to hear your words, share your feelings, know your thoughts"

That is why Hydaelyn's purpose is for you to hear, feel, think.

Her goals are stated.
WoL is most certainly enacting those goals.
We must hear, feel and think through suffering to bring hope and answer Meteion with that hope.

Though how Hydaelyn came about had not been fully decided by writers until recently -- This aspect has been the case in the story as written from the very beginning. We can see in the lyrics from 1.0 in the song "Answers" which really represents Hydaelyn's message that we're being tempered with.

Not to mention our collective "Answers" is exactly what we took with us to Ultima Thule.

Below I add notes to the lyrics linking it pretty strongly with this interpretation
(1/2)

Quote:

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Ascians:
I close my eyes, tell us why must we suffer
(the suffering Hydaelyn is always on about)
Release your hands, for your will drags us under
(fighting Zodiark)
My legs grow tired, tell us where must we wander
(Ascians constantly reborn into this fight)
How can we carry on if redemption's beyond us?
(desire to return to unsundered)

Hydaelyn:
To all of my children in whom Life flows abundant
(aether keeping the Final Days away)
To all of my children to whom Death hath passed his judgement
(Song of Despair)
The soul yearns for honor, and the flesh the hereafter
(life and death)
Look to those who walked before to lead those who walk after
(world before/after sundering)

Shining is the Land's light of justice
(again aether)
Ever flows the Land's well of purpose
(reasons to live, in the face of despair)
Walk free, walk free, walk free, believe
(desire of Hydaelyn, making the echo a different kind of tempering with freedom)
The Land is alive, so believe
(as other primals, she wants belief)

(chorus of tempering vvv)
Suffer"Feel"
Promise"Think"
Witness"Teach"
Reason"Hear"

Follow"Feel"
Wander"Think"
Stumble"Teach"
Listen"Speak"

Honor"Speak"
Value"Tell"
Whisper"Tell"
Mention"Hope"
Ponder"Hope"
Warrant"Wish"
Cherish"Wish"

Welcome"Roam"
Witness"Roam"
Listen"Roam"
Suffer"Roam"
Sanction"Sleep"
Weather"Sleep"
Wander"Sleep"
Sleep on (souls of ascians)
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Now open your eyes while our plight is repeated
(new character == Azem's soul freshly reincarnated)

Still deaf to our cries, lost in hope we lie defeated
(world of Aumarot)

Our souls have been torn, and our bodies forsaken
Bearing sins of the past, for our future is taken
(sundering)

War born of strife, these trials persuade us not
(conflict with Zodiark's ascians)

Feel what? Learn what?
Words without sound, these lies betray our thoughts (because we're tempered)
Mired by a plague of doubt, the Land, she mourns
(Hydaelyn doesn't know if we'll have to flee with the moon or be able to master Dynamis)

See what? Hear what?
Judgement binds all we hold to a memory of scorn
(Final Days)

Tell us why, given Life, we are meant to die, helpless in our cries?
(hopelessness other civilizations have fallen to)

Witness "Feel"
Suffer "Think"
Borrow "Teach"
Reason "Hear"

Follow "Feel"
Stumble "Think"
Wander "Teach"
Listen "Blink"
Whisper "Blink"
Shoulder "Blink"
Ponder "Blink"
Weather "Hear"

Answer "Look"
Answer "Think"
Answer TOGETHER

Thy Life is a riddle, to bear rapture and sorrow
(YOUR PURPOSE TO STOP FINAL DAYS)
To listen, to suffer, to entrust unto tomorrow
(JOB IS SUFFER + SAVE FUTURE)
In one fleeting moment, from the Land doth life flow
(Final days return, death of Hydaelyn/Zodiark)

Yet in one fleeting moment, for anew it doth grow (song of Hope)
In the same fleeting moment thou must live, die and know

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Answers from 1.0
(2/2)

"I do not believe we have ever met, yet I sense my magick upon you. Therefore if I wove the enchantment, I could only have done so at a later point in time." - Venat, Heart of Hydaelyn

"What manner of magick is this, if I may ask?" - Hythlodaeus, Local Busybody

"A traveler's ward, of course. It prevents the corruption of one's aether." - Venat, Inventor of the Blessing of Light, on the Blessing of Light

"Does it protect you from enthrallment by primals, by any chance?" - The WoL, Bearer of the Blessing of Light

"...Primals, you say? I'm not familiar with such beings, but if they "enthrall" by warping the balance of aether, then yes--the magick would afford you a measure of protection." Hydaelyn, Speaker of Plain English

The quest is Travelers at the Crossroads, so you can review the records.

And if you needed the additional help...

"This report seeks to provide an overview of the mechanism by which eikons corrupt and bend men to their will. The phenomenon we call "Corruption" refers to the alteration of the aether of the soul. Said aether normally exists in equilibrium; no one element being more prominent than another. But when a subject is exposed to the aether of an eikon, this changes, their soul taking on the properties of the entity in question." - Owen, Allagan Scientist Specializing in Aetheric Corruption, In a Report Heard by the Scions Themselves

We know exactly what the Blessing of Light is, exactly what the Blessing of Light does, and that it protects from exactly the thing that tempering is, from both an academic source and a personally knowledgeable one. Hell, Venat herself saying this is literally the Word of God about this subject.

Your opinion has absolutely no basis in the text of the story we're talking about. It's just straight-up false, I'm sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

We know exactly what the Blessing of Light is, exactly what the Blessing of Light does, and that it protects from exactly the thing that tempering is, from both an academic source and a personally knowledgeable one. Hell, Venat herself saying this is literally the Word of God about this subject.

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So how does that explanation account for the Crystals of Light and Ryne/Minfilia's supped-up Oracle powers, both of which are described as the Blessing of Light?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Veloran

So how does that explanation account for the Crystals of Light and Ryne/Minfilia's supped-up Oracle powers, both of which are described as the Blessing of Light?

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The Crystals of Light are some sort of amplification of the Blessing; it's not clear exactly how they work, but it's clearly directly connected, as pretty directly pointed out by Y'shtola when Ysayle uses her Crystal.

I think Minfilia and Ryne have both the Blessing of Light and additional powers on top of that; possibly Hydaelyn-provided, possibly unrelated.