Parsing unfair but okay?

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

If you are gatekeeping content by using something that is against ToS (debatable and something I'm not going to engage in as it is clear in the ToS) then yes, you are exhibiting a negative attribute. Are you going to be there to caddle someone if something were to ever happen when they get banned or be there to apologize that you were in the wrong requiring that they use a third party program to join your static?

No, you'll be on to the next.

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Gatekeeping is their right when forming parties outside of Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Gatekeeping is their right when forming parties outside of Duty Finder.

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Right, and if you read what I wrote, I said this was fine, but doesn't make you some shining beacon of the community.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Right, and if you read what I wrote, I said this was fine, but doesn't make you some shining beacon of the community.

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Who said we were trying to be 'shining beacons' of the community? We just want to have fun with people of a similar skill level. Kind of curious where this came from.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Out of pure curiosity;

How much Savage+ content have you completed?

How frequently do you interact directly with the raiding community?

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Out of pure curiosity:

What does these statistics have to do with my opinion on gatekeeping?

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

If you are gatekeeping content by using something that is against ToS (debatable and something I'm not going to engage in as it is clear in the ToS) then yes, you are exhibiting a negative attribute. Are you going to be there to caddle someone if something were to ever happen when they get banned or be there to apologize that you were in the wrong requiring that they use a third party program to join your static?

No, you'll be on to the next.

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OK guys, I'ma teach you how to measure DPS for your static, without using 3rd-party tools. You will need a tank.

Step 1. Make a party with you and a good DPS.
Step 2. Go into the Extreme trial of your choice (preferably lower-level).
Step 3. As tank, hold agro for a few minutes and see how much HP they're able to chip. Do as little damage as possible.
Step 4. Make the same party with your potential new static member.
Step 5. Have them go through the same process. See how much HP they're able to chip, in the same amount of time.
Step 6. Make a decision based on that. If you find that they aren't doing enough damage, you are free to gatekeep them from joining your static to your heart's content. Yay!

What're they gonna do then? Who're they gonna cry to now?

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

OK guys, I'ma teach you how to measure DPS for your static, without using 3rd-party tools. You will need a tank.

Step 1. Make a party with you and a good DPS.
Step 2. Go into the Extreme trial of your choice (preferably lower-level).
Step 3. As tank, hold agro for a few minutes and see how much HP they're able to chip. Do as little damage as possible.
Step 4. Make the same party with your potential new static member.
Step 5. Have them go through the same process. See how much HP they're able to chip, in the same amount of time.
Step 6. Make a decision based on that. If you find that they aren't doing enough damage, you are free to gatekeep them from joining your static to your heart's content. Yay!

What're they gonna do then? Who're they gonna cry to now?

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Seems reasonable. All tools within the confines of the game itself. Thanks for the suggestion!

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

If you are gatekeeping content by using something that is against ToS (debatable and something I'm not going to engage in as it is clear in the ToS) then yes, you are exhibiting a negative attribute. Are you going to be there to caddle someone if something were to ever happen when they get banned or be there to apologize that you were in the wrong requiring that they use a third party program to join your static?

No, you'll be on to the next.

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Pretty much every static will have someone who parses, that's the reality and it's normal. If a static group is particularly interested in knowing their own metrics in order to improve their own gameplay by finding their struggle points, seeing where they're at and being able to compare to others who're where they wish to be... that's completely fine, and their business. If they want to play with like-minded people, that's also fine. You being a part of a group with a mentality that's fundamentally opposed to your own, is stupid and you don't belong there nor will you have fun there. At that point, you find a group that fits your own mindset... you don't demand groups you wouldn't even enjoy change and cater to what you want - that's self-centered and childish behavior.

Either way, parsing is fine. It's technically against ToS just as Discord technically is. The predominant rule with parsing is not to harass, put down, or otherwise insult others for their numbers and to utilize it as an improvement tool. So long as you don't do the latter, you'll be golden.

And, even so -- most statics don't require you, yourself, to run the parsing program. Usually it's just someone there does, or multiple people do. Statics that want your metrics will, in some cases, provide a trial if they think your reasons are solid for not having anything available. Even so, if you're trying to get into a Hardcore group, and likely most Midcore groups, they won't largely want to take people who have nothing up since the initial reaction might be that the person in question is just starting out and that's not the sort of player they're looking for. And that's within their right, to choose who they want to play with.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Pretty much every static will have someone who parses, that's the reality and it's normal. If a static group is particularly interested in knowing their own metrics in order to improve their own gameplay by finding their struggle points, seeing where they're at and being able to compare to others who're where they wish to be... that's completely fine, and their business. If they want to play with like-minded people, that's also fine. You being a part of a group with a mentality that's fundamentally opposed to your own, is stupid and you don't belong there nor will you have fun there. At that point, you find a group that fits your own mindset... you don't demand groups you wouldn't even enjoy change and cater to what you want - that's self-centered and childish behavior.

Either way, parsing is fine. It's technically against ToS just as Discord technically is. The predominant rule with parsing is not to harass, put down, or otherwise insult others for their numbers and to utilize it as an improvement tool. So long as you don't do the latter, you'll be golden.

And, even so -- most statics don't require you, yourself, to run the parsing program. Usually it's just someone there does, or multiple people do. Statics that want your metrics will, in some cases, provide a trial if they think your reasons are solid for not having anything available. Even so, if you're trying to get into a Hardcore group, and likely most Midcore groups, they won't largely want to take people who have nothing up since the initial reaction might be that the person in question is just starting out and that's not the sort of player they're looking for. And that's within their right, to choose who they want to play with.

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My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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You need information to know how to improve.

Don't you read books to learn more about a subject? Why not just do the learning, magically.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

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I never face-palmed so hard in my life.

Hollllyyyyy.

I'm kind of thankful you're removing yourself from the conversation after saying that - 'cause I'm feeling some second-hand embarrassment.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Pretty much every static will have someone who parses, that's the reality and it's normal. If a static group is particularly interested in knowing their own metrics in order to improve their own gameplay by finding their struggle points, seeing where they're at and being able to compare to others who're where they wish to be... that's completely fine, and their business. If they want to play with like-minded people, that's also fine. You being a part of a group with a mentality that's fundamentally opposed to your own, is stupid and you don't belong there nor will you have fun there. At that point, you find a group that fits your own mindset... you don't demand groups you wouldn't even enjoy change and cater to what you want - that's self-centered and childish behavior.

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I just want to expand on this a bit, using an example that doesn't involve any gray areas of the TOS.

1. Some groups will want you to have full crafted, max meld gear for raiding on day one, or as close to day one as possible.

2. Others will go "What's the point of wasting that much money on stuff that will quickly be replaced anyways."

People with #2 mentality joining a #1 kind of group will have problems. They'll resent having to spend so much money (or hours on DoH/L). Conversely, the group will resent the joiner for not adequately preparing. And vice-versa, someone with the #1 mentality joining a #2 kind of group won't be happy with the group not taking it seriously enough, or whatever else.

There's many other metrics but in short, it's pretty important to join a group with similar expectations to your own. That can be a no parse group if you wish, they do exist. Or any number of other things that some people consider important to do a certain way, and can cause friction/resentment when those expectations aren't met.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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That's not what parsing does. Parsing doesn't tell you what to do. Parsing just tells you how much damage you did. That's literally it.

You then have the option to use other tools that compare your damage with other people's, and you can then see if you're doing good or bad. There are then other tools that show you what the other people are doing, so that you can maybe use that to improve.

The vast majority of people only use parsing to see if they're on the same level as the other players in their role. So if you're a DPS and the fucking tank ends up doing more damage than you, you at least have the awereness that there's probably something you should be looking into. lol

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Out of pure curiosity:

What does these statistics have to do with my opinion on gatekeeping?

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A lot, when you're making statements about the morality of something that you potentially could have no firsthand experience with.
With raiding experience, it's more likely that you'd understand exactly why people feel compelled to use logs to make decisions, and your opinion would have a lot more weight.

When you've had 100+ hours wasted by people sneaking into your parties unprepared for its stated goal, you start to feel a little differently towards methods of detecting and mitigating those types of situations before they actually happen, for your own sake and the sake of the other people in the party trying their best.

When I'm recruiting for a static, trialing someone often requires 7 people to find a day and set aside an hour or two of their time. Without the ability to look at logs and filter some candidates efficiently, the amount of inconvenience and wasted man-hours assembling these trials would be IMMENSE. Ultimate recruitment in particular is rough, because there's a large population of strange people who skip straight to ultimate without developing their skillset in lower difficulty content, and frankly have no idea how to play at a high level. I recently watched an Ultimate group recruit a DPS player who consistently dealt less damage than a tank, and they racked up probably 10+ hours of wipes to Living Liquid enrage because of this individual alone. Most of them ended up giving up on the fight; A little bit of 'Gatekeeping' would have significantly reduced the negative outcome of that situation.

I've also had cases where I've actually denied someone from a group for having logs that were too good. That may seem strange, but it's important to understand that disparity in expectations is one of the biggest killers of statics. If I'm putting together a casual/midcore group, I'm going to ask a lot of questions of a top 1% player that is interested in joining. Without logs, it would be a lot more difficult to accurately balance the skill level / expectations of a group.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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Tell me you don't do any high end content without telling me you don't do high end content.

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Originally Posted by Fairecilla

I have. Repeatedly. I've been taking a few screencaps as I'm not sure I'm comfortable with people openly asking for them and have been debating it over with my FC - https://imgur.com/a/aHAqf4l from yesterday for example.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with groups being formed based on logs - but not with it being 'enforced' by elitists on pf.

Actually, what's everyone's thoughts on openly asking for logs in PF? Is it even against TOS?

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Ah that's what that number means? yea i've seen a fair number of those..mostly died down on Spriggan but i did see a fair few at launch. Was wondering what that number meant.

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Originally Posted by Fairecilla

I have. Repeatedly. I've been taking a few screencaps as I'm not sure I'm comfortable with people openly asking for them and have been debating it over with my FC - https://imgur.com/a/aHAqf4l from yesterday for example.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with groups being formed based on logs - but not with it being 'enforced' by elitists on pf.

Actually, what's everyone's thoughts on openly asking for logs in PF? Is it even against TOS?

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So, parties like this generally aren't farm parties or clear parties that a casual player would be interested in joining. They're purpose-made parse parties, where people are attempting to increase their personal-best or compete on the leaderboards.

The reason they're instituting a percentile requirement is because they're looking to try to guarantee a fast kill-time, and need everyone in the party to be pushing high dps in order to accomplish that. It can be encounter dependent, but better kill-times generally add positive skew to your numbers.

In these types of cases it's usually(there are exceptions) not really 'elitism' driving it, because they have a genuine goal in mind that requires a certain level of throughput, and recruiting players below those thresholds would obstruct that goal. If you were putting together an Olympic running team, you probably wouldn't recruit a hobbyist runner that only goes for weekend jogs for example.

Elitism absolutely exists in this game, but is usually more represented by people who constantly look for ways to unreasonably undermine other people in order to elevate themselves, and reframe the genuine accomplishments of others as something beneath them or unimpressive. One instance that sticks in my memory was someone mocking / making fun of a player for having a "low orange" parse. (Orange means you're in the top 5% of runs logged on your job, and is a significant accomplishment for most players).

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

That's not what parsing does. Parsing doesn't tell you what to do. Parsing just tells you how much damage you did. That's literally it.

You then have the option to use other tools that compare your damage with other people's, and you can then see if you're doing good or bad. There are then other tools that show you what the other people are doing, so that you can maybe use that to improve.

The vast majority of people only use parsing to see if they're on the same level as the other players in their role. So if you're a DPS and the fucking tank ends up doing more damage than you, you at least have the awereness that there's probably something you should be looking into. lol

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The last sentence is quite jarring if it were to actually happen.....and I'm not doubting it does.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

The last sentence is quite jarring if it were to actually happen.....and I'm not doubting it does.

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Oh it does happen, thankfully not in a majority of cases but there are some really bad people you encounter in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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Even i ignore high end content[but i still watch for the toxicity hehe] but ure on a whole other level.

Parsing lets you find the optimal way to play a job, YOU still play the game, YOU still do the rotations and all, you just get more information than what the game provides to see if ure doing good enough.

You can always do the traditional way of trying to kill an EX dummy or something in under a certain amount of minites instead.

What ure suggesting is unrelated to the thread as a whole tbh

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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bro please you make us lalafells looks bad

Its always fun to look up the anti-parsers on fflogs to see why they are so against others knowing their performance for organized group play. Guess what. You too could have played with a parser and been infected by the fflog. The only way you will find out is looking yourself up.

I really want to hear people's thoughts on how seeing a log plays the game for you. That's not sassy, I genuinely want to understand where this logic flows.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I really want to hear people's thoughts on how seeing a log plays the game for you. That's not sassy, I genuinely want to understand where this logic flows.

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It’s just hardcore casuals being hardcore casuals. I don’t bother trying to understand their logic at this point.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I really want to hear people's thoughts on how seeing a log plays the game for you. That's not sassy, I genuinely want to understand where this logic flows.

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It should be painfully obvious that many people in this thread don't raid and have no idea what it's like.

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

It should be painfully obvious that many people in this thread don't raid and have no idea what it's like.

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Exactly. Odd that I haven’t seen a single person who seriously raids and are genuinely decent to passable agree with the anti-parsing sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

It should be painfully obvious that many people in this thread don't raid and have no idea what it's like.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

It’s just hardcore casuals being hardcore casuals. I don’t bother trying to understand their logic at this point.

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The belief has to come from somewhere. Among people who are die-hard "I REFUSE TO EVER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM THE PROBLEM" there's got to be some people just swept up into it. Sometimes just talking it out can bring out some fallacies in the argument where middle ground can be reached.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

The belief has to come from somewhere. Among people who are die-hard "I REFUSE TO EVER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM THE PROBLEM" there's got to be some people just swept up into it. Sometimes just talking it out can bring out some fallacies in the argument where middle ground can be reached.

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It’s hard to try to sympathize. But I suppose it’s because I feel like a fair share of them are quick to demonize us.

Casuals frequently utilize mods that improve the games aesthetics. Clothing and hair add-ons are popularized and publicly advertised. If you look at the ‘show off your -‘ threads a fair share of those screenshots are obviously augmented. They use Discord and chat with their friends while playing on third party apps. And no one really says anything.

Yet when we bring up our own third party tool for the purpose of improving our own gameplay experience its problematic.

I guess I still carry a small spark of hopefulness. DPS parsing and "chadding" logs has just been so common place in any other game I have touched for over a decade. Just the fact it's not in your face is polite enough, but the act itself being so offensive I read manifestos about "automatic gameplay" kind of hit me from several odd angles. It's made me insanely curious to pick some brains.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

The belief has to come from somewhere. Among people who are die-hard "I REFUSE TO EVER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I AM THE PROBLEM" there's got to be some people just swept up into it. Sometimes just talking it out can bring out some fallacies in the argument where middle ground can be reached.

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I think it's mainly that raiders have a reputation for being elitist and using a program that against ToS to recruit for a static even if the mods of the game are clearly turning a blind eye to raiders that are not harassing others using it fits right in with the narrative. Others are just straight up fabricating lies, like earlier in the thread someone claimed that early patches of this game had fights with hard enrages and yet we had no parsers and if that person had actually been a raider back then they'd know that there were actually multiple different parsing programs.

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

It should be painfully obvious that many people in this thread don't raid and have no idea what it's like.

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even as a (bad) non-raider, I don't think there's anything negative about parsing, quite the opposite of it, in fact
I think people generally just don't want others to see that they make mistakes and like, do low damage because of it? or that they don't put any effort in and with numbers, there'd be less excuses that they could make

and as someone whose first MMO is 14 and thus has no experience aside from he said she said from my friends and the forums about parsers, I do think that sometimes, someone really underperforming needs and deserves to be called out, especially if they're a big part or the main reason that the duty isn't progressing
but I also completely understand why it's not wanted and would never do it
one can dream, though...

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Just reading your responses thus far, I hope I never have the displeasure of being partied with you. What a buzzkill.

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I’m not going to apologize for having my opinions, and I stand behind them. When you join a PF, you adhere to whatever rules that PF leader sets. Same for statics. And it can even extend in part to DF when it comes to doing what the majority wants as opposed to having 1 player trying to force a playstyle on 3 others that do not want that playstyle. There’s nothing wrong about that; nothing about it is a “buzzkill”. If we want to talk about personal buzzkills, for me it would be forced into carrying someone who very clearly does not align with the goals of the rest of the group.

As for your displeasure at partying with me: at the risk of seeming slightly rude in my bluntness, I don’t care. I’m not here to seek validation for my opinions or actions. I don’t put stock in internet points. I’m just here to discuss and contest blatant misconceptions.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

A lot of people quoted me and instead of responding to each one, it wasn't the specific post I quoted that I'm commenting on. I'm commenting on the totality of responses I've read. If you want to kick people out of your PF, that is fine. You are within your rights as it isn't against ToS. Does it make you a beacon of the community? Absolutely not.

I also find the people that want to be carried a buzzkill as well, but unfortunately, that is the mentality in a lot of society. "C41", I'll sneak in and make it C42. Unsynced mount farm, eh, what is a few deaths? I've seen so much. I even made a PF saying I'd kick people for not knowing Tsukuyomi mechs when farming for materials.

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So, if you agree with the premise of “my PF, my rules” and if you dislike the idea of carrying someone through a piece of content, then why bother responding to me at all in the way you did? You clearly don’t disagree with my base premise. Or is it just because you don’t like the things I have to say? I’m more inclined to believe it’s some sort of weird personal beef with me, given that our previous interaction also had me disagreeing with your stance—and as you’ve only been lurking in this thread up until this point; and choose your moment of reveal to be a targeted response towards me. But perhaps I am just overanalyzing the situation.

For the rest of this—as far as I’m aware, I’ve never proclaimed myself to be a “beacon of the community”, nor has anyone else in this thread that is “pro-parser” or “pro-picking-who-I-want-to-do-high-end-content-with”. They’re just responding to the obvious issue illustrated in the OP, in addition to debating the various misconceptions that surround parsers. In all honesty, this isn’t a new conversation. It’s been discussed at length throughout the years I’ve been on here—and neither side has really changed much. But when you’re bored and waiting in 2,000 to 3,000+ queues, guess you gotta pass the time somehow. That’s the reason why I’m in here.

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The only reason I've been watching this thread is because I do agree with people who say that parsing should not be used to gatekeep people. Unfortunately, as I've came back from my first time leaving the game, I've started to realize again the reasons I left and it is a little disappointing with how this community behaves.

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When it comes to private statics and player-made PFs, gatekeeping is acceptable. We all have the right to choose who we play with when it comes to either of those. Even in randomly matched DF parties, we have the right to choose who we play with. People are free to kick those who don’t contribute to the majority goal just like they’re free to leave a party that clearly doesn’t share their goal, and spend 30 minutes in the Gold Saucer, crafting, gathering, talking with friends, or whatever else they want to do.

I’d have to agree that it is quite disappointing how some people in this community behave. Like attempting to force their way into statics or PFs that very clearly are above them or have different goals from them instead of searching for one more in line with their playstyle or level of skill; or insisting that players blindly report certain PFs because “reasons” or “they’re doing something I personally don’t like”. Or because they believe they’re being righteous in the crusade against third-party tools.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

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This tells me that you don’t understand how parsers, logs, or performance analysis tools work at all. Parsers do not “play the game for you”. They aren’t a script or a bot. They read Battle Log data and compile it in an easy-to-read format. A glorified calculator. That’s literally all a parse is. That you seem to think they play the game for a person implies you have no idea what you’re talking about. Or you’re just trying to spin some kind of weird strawman argument.

To improve, you first need data to show or tell you what you’re doing wrong. This game does not provide that. If you have been reading this thread and my previous responses—which, your response to me implies that you have—then I already explained how lacking in performance feedback this game is; and it has been a major criticism of mine since I started trying to better myself back in 2016. Even the best indication it gives (enrages) are incredibly vague and will not tell a person or party what the exact problem is.

How do you learn from a problem if you have no idea what it actually is? Once you have the data on-hand, then you can analyze it and pinpoint your mistakes and errors—and then rectify them. That is how you learn.

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Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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I don’t know what morality really has to do with any of this, so I’m a bit confused on that part. Just because you use tools to learn doesn’t mean you’re shattering your moral compass… As far as I’m aware, the easiest way to learn from things like rotational mistakes and errors is to analyze when and where said mistakes happened, and learn not to do them again. But you can’t do that unless something points you towards them.

As I said: this game will not tell you that you should have used Fire IV here or there over Fire I or Blizzard I or literally any other skill in your arsenal. So you will never know that you were ever doing anything wrong because this game does not provide that sort of feedback. The only way to know is to gather data, analyze it, and then compare it to other data.

Parsers won’t yell at you “Use Fire IV here!” It requires active analysis and active implementation on your part. A far cry from a botting or script program.

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Originally Posted by xxmiamorecadenza

It’s just hardcore casuals being hardcore casuals. I don’t bother trying to understand their logic at this point.

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Stop! Don’t use your logic!! It’s toxic!!

/s

I always have FFLogs open on another tab when I read one of these threads, it's a fun experience.

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Originally Posted by Didac

I always have FFLogs open on another tab when I read one of these threads, it's a fun experience.

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Well given I was formally against them because people were purely just looking at numbers and not much else, ever since a Ultimate Raider friend of mine introduced me to the log analyser tool, my opinion had changed dramatically to be much more pro parser than I was before.

It's so very easy to stroll along thinking you're doing well and paying not a blind bit of attention because "well it worked in ShB" and "Well at least we are clearing " and not realise just how many mistakes you're actually making, mistakes the parser tool alone can't really point out...

"Oh I'm doing 92.78% uptime I'm doing great" you think with only a green or blue parse (this was me by the way) except I ran that parse through the tool and to my horror...

I'm clipping GCDs like crazy, trying to play much too fast with my rotation and as a result lost over 20 GCDs worth of dps because I was playing too fast...

So because of that information, information I would not have without a parser I'm slowing it down, training out the bad habits and doing a hell of a lot better, but still could be better still.

Without that information, I'd carry on being Naive, not learning, not growing and not being a better player of my job for my FC.

Yes people can be very toxic with parsing, but so can people against them.

I wrote this as this is what parsers are for, the real reason they exist. Don't be afraid to use them for self betterment.

If you're constantly grey, you're doing something wrong.
If you're green/blue you're doing something rotation wise wrong
If you're purple you're close and just need to fine tune and keep practicing
If you're orange or above, congratulations, you're now mastering your job.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

If you're constantly grey, you're doing something wrong.
If you're green/blue you're doing something rotation wise wrong
If you're purple you're close and just need to fine tune and keep practicing
If you're orange or above, congratulations, you're now mastering your job.

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Don't take this post to be against parsing in any way, but there's a lot wrong with this.

If you're green/blue you're doing something rotation wise wrong - Or you're playing perfectly but you're behind in gear. Maybe you're not using pots, and in pug runs some people don't want to waste them. Or someone killed you by failing a mechanic, since collateral damage is common in high end content. Or if you're a healer, perhaps your coheal is foisting all the GCD healing onto you.
If you're constantly grey, you're doing something wrong. - Combine factors from above, such as being behind in gear and someone failed a mechanic and took you out. Granted, this wouldn't be constant like being behind in gear would be for a while.
If you're purple you're close and just need to fine tune and keep practicing - Still might be playing perfectly and even geared, but you're in an off-meta comp
If you're orange or above, congratulations, you're now mastering your job. - No. You did your rotation perfectly, but maybe you've been doing that all along. Orange means you're playing in a meta comp with lots of raid buffs and you got good crit RNG on top of that. Congratulations, but mastering your job is only a prerequisite - getting orange requires much beyond that.

This post is why I wish more static recruiters would look deeper than just glancing at the ranking...

Body of work is common with an "midcore" or "hardcore" group.

To be fair, a real group would just trial you and do all the raid calculations they need. Because picking someone just on numbers is just a lousy way to recruit alone. You have to see mechanics, and raid fit.

However if they don't know what to expect they might not even consider a trial. Could be other candidates that have calculations and that makes it easier to take someone further in the process.

If you join a more "casual" group then they'll just likely take anyone with any raid experience and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Don't take this post to be against parsing in any way, but there's a lot wrong with this.

If you're green/blue you're doing something rotation wise wrong - Or you're playing perfectly but you're behind in gear. Or someone killed you by failing a mechanic, since collateral damage is common in high end content. Or if you're a healer, perhaps your coheal is foisting all the GCD healing onto you.
If you're constantly grey, you're doing something wrong. - Combine factors from above, such as being behind in gear and someone failed a mechanic and took you out. Granted, this wouldn't be constant like being behind in gear would be for a while.
If you're purple you're close and just need to fine tune and keep practicing - Still might be playing perfectly and even geared, but you're in an off-meta comp
If you're orange or above, congratulations, you're now mastering your job. - No. You did your rotation perfectly, but maybe you've been doing that all along. Orange means you're playing in a meta comp with lots of raid buffs and you got good crit RNG on top of that. Congratulations, but mastering your job is only a prerequisite - getting orange requires much beyond that.

This post is why I wish more static recruiters would look deeper than just glancing at the ranking...

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If you die you don't get orange or purple. Keep that in mind.

There's a lot more to it than simply hitting your rotation right we both know that, it's also fight knowledge, mechanical eptitude, buff synching, positioning so you don't cancel autos whenever possible (getting turned around as a ranged will cancel your autos, moving out of range will cancel your autos and autos really matter, they're a good portion of your dps, in the case of the likes of MNK or RPR they're every bit as important as your rotation) knowing when you can greed or when you have to back it off

People don't just get orange by Mastering their rotation

Anyone and I do mean anyone can sit and attack a dummy and get a perfect rotation but in a fight with lots going on? That's where getting good with your rotation matters as if you can rotate AND do the fight correctly, then you're getting that orange parse.

Otherwise, blue man group.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Anyone and I do mean anyone can sit and attack a dummy and get a perfect rotation but in a fight with lots going on? That's where getting good with your rotation matters as if you can rotate AND do the fight correctly, then you're getting that orange parse.

Otherwise, blue man group.

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I was mostly agreeing with your post until this part. People don't get orange just by mastering their rotation, yes, but you still seem to imply it's all personal responsibility. There's factors varying degrees out of your control. In a pug group with 2 physical ranged? You're not getting orange even if you've got plenty of oranges under your belt, even if you know your rotation perfectly, mechanics perfectly, and can execute everything perfectly in the circumstances of those mechanics. Or maybe you will if you get amazing RNG.

In a perfect comp? RNG might still go "F you" and deny you that orange until you do another run.

Mastering one's job is merely the price of entry to have a chance.

Though, I do feel it's worth mentioning FFlogs has plenty of tools for in-depth analysis. I merely wish to caution against trusting ranking too much, for both evaluating one's own performance and for others'. Especially on the eve of savage's release - a lot of people might be doing their rotation fine but not shell out for crafted gear or so on, and the rankings will punish them for that.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

In a perfect comp? RNG might still go "F you" and deny you that orange until you do another run.

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This is just plain wrong. If you know what you are doing you can get consistent 95+ even in an average PF group. Yes, even on dancer. Even pinks are entirely within the realm of personal responsibility and a bit of crit luck if you play exceptionally well.

You also heavily overvaluing group composition. Outside of missing role bonus you can parse high in most groups without duplicates. Group does matter when it comes to top spots, sure, but not your average pink.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Don't take this post to be against parsing in any way, but there's a lot wrong with this.

If you're green/blue you're doing something rotation wise wrong - Or you're playing perfectly but you're behind in gear. Maybe you're not using pots, and in pug runs some people don't want to waste them. Or someone killed you by failing a mechanic, since collateral damage is common in high end content. Or if you're a healer, perhaps your coheal is foisting all the GCD healing onto you.
If you're constantly grey, you're doing something wrong. - Combine factors from above, such as being behind in gear and someone failed a mechanic and took you out. Granted, this wouldn't be constant like being behind in gear would be for a while.
If you're purple you're close and just need to fine tune and keep practicing - Still might be playing perfectly and even geared, but you're in an off-meta comp
If you're orange or above, congratulations, you're now mastering your job. - No. You did your rotation perfectly, but maybe you've been doing that all along. Orange means you're playing in a meta comp with lots of raid buffs and you got good crit RNG on top of that. Congratulations, but mastering your job is only a prerequisite - getting orange requires much beyond that.

This post is why I wish more static recruiters would look deeper than just glancing at the ranking...

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About this... normally we will never look at parses without someone being BiS. Parses are only looked at when BiS. Otherwise it is fine to be on the green side. Grey is still not good as you are able to still hit high greens with min ilevel gear even when people are bis.

As for purple/orange, there is no such thing as needing to play in a meta comp group. We are not in SB anymore. It is debatable for heavy rdps reliant jobs to not get their orange when others are performing extremely low but it is not that huge to make a big diff of a 95 to a grey.

At the top parsing level. We do not rely on "crit rng" to get 95s. For 99s, yes we do. Players who are trying to get 95s with crit rng are not really considered to be 95% as they are very inconsistent with their damage. These players never make it on speed kill level due to that.

Getting 95s is extremely easy in non parse, farm parties, clear parties. I get some 99s sometimes even in those parties, so that is definitely possible.

Other than that, "mastering your rotation" is not something we really emphasize on for 95s. Because you can play suboptimally , make a lot of rotation mistakes and still 95 very easily. Mastering rotation is something we aim at 99s.

The gap between 95s and 99s is as big as a mid purple and an orange would be or more.

Have a good day.