What is your biggest wish for endwalker that you know probably won't happen?

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

We must have played different expansions then. Lots of people died. The caravan guy, Tesleen, Vauthry, the Warriors of Darkness, Emet-Selch... Who decides who's worthy enough to be counted?

It's not like I don't agree with some of your points but you're essentially saying the story is less meaningful because not enough main characters died, which is a smack in the face to the writer(s) who, according to many, delivered the most memorable FF story in recent memory, let alone for MMOs in general.

And you're reducing all that to 'but my least favourite characters didn't die therefore it's bad'. Again, that's too edgy for me. Characters dying does not a good story make.

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Didn’t like half the Scions die in ARR? Except the elf twins, Mr. Thou, and Cat Lady with 7 lives left.

Chocobo boots

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Originally Posted by Theodric

FFXIV encases most of its cast in plot armour and that, unfortunately, leads to stagnation as far as I'm concerned.

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Again, it's not that I don't agree with some points and yet just because the 'right' person didn't die doesn't automatically mean it's bad, especially when the general consensus is the opposite. And all I'm hearing is 'X should have died because it's a dark story.' Isn't that in itself a trope? But then again I'm not a big fan of labelling everything tropes because everything ever written is one at this point in time. And it's also the same 5 or 6 stories regurgitated ad nauseam since millennia just with different names. I will agree with the plot armour thing, though.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Well what we’re discussing is a part of the topic at hand. If you look back and read you’ll see how it started. Anyhow, in response to your how shb was different than before, technically it was. The post patches were much more rushed :D

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It's a discussion spawned from one on topic post and people arguing over it. It's a bit irritating to come to a thread interested in seeing features or improvements people would like to see and the bulk of posts being the billionth iteration of the same argument we've been seeing for two years or so now.

It's not that I don't see where people are coming from but it's drowning everything else in the thread so probably belongs in a separate thread if people want to discuss it further.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Again, it's not that I don't agree with some points and yet just because the 'right' person didn't die doesn't automatically mean it's bad, especially when the general consensus is the opposite. And all I'm hearing is 'X should have died because it's a dark story.' Isn't that in itself a trope? But then again I'm not a big fan of labelling everything tropes because everything ever written is one at this point in time. And it's also the same 5 or 6 stories regurgitated ad nauseam since millennia just with different names. I will agree with the plot armour thing, though.

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I think what he is saying is that because they have established that no matter how great of a threat we are facing, we know that the main cast is going to come out clean it takes away from the story. And to be fair it does. It removes all tension and doesn't give you that moment where you unconsciously hold your breath because you are actually scared you may lose a character you love. Antagonists get disposed of all the time and that is another thing, we know that eventually the big bads, esp the sympathetic ones, are going down or changing sides.

If they would have off'd one or two of the main scions in a meaningful way it would add some much needed tension back into the story because we would not know from patch to patch if someone was actually going to face the consequences of their actions, which makes a story more thrilling in a way. Sure they offed a few characters, but we barely knew them or they were just completely faceless which still takes away the tension.

It's like playing a game with god mode on. You may have a little fun running through, destroying anything and everything in your path without having to worry about anything, but that also takes a lot of the fun, the thrill and the enjoyment out of a game. When a writer or writers turn god mode on for a character it does the same thing. You may enjoy the story but it completely removes a lot of the thrill and makes anything and everything they do somewhat meaningless.

Think about it this way. We had a powerful dude, who could destroy worlds and manipulate the life stream like it was a stream in his back yard, who could easily swat the scions aside with a snap of his fingers and yet, even when it came to the final showdown, when he had the upper hand, he attacked them and missed every single time. In fact they were so well off after that battle with this demi-god they were able to swim their way across an entire ocean and crawl up right off the coast of a major city. Now if they would have established that the scions were mortal, they could be killed, think of how dramatic that scene would have been knowing that not all of the scions were going to be safe, compared to how it was. Did they need to kill anyone in that showdown? No. But the knowledge that they could be, is what matters the most. It gives you that moment where you hold your breath, your heart begins to race and you feel real genuine fear and panic, which is just as important in this sort of story as the feelings of relief and joy you get from other situations.

That is why covering your main cast in plot armor is so terrible and a crutch for so many writers. It takes away more than it gives.

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Originally Posted by Unholychinchilla

It's a discussion spawned from one on topic post and people arguing over it. It's a bit irritating to come to a thread interested in seeing features or improvements people would like to see and the bulk of posts being the billionth iteration of the same argument we've been seeing for two years or so now.

It's not that I don't see where people are coming from but it's drowning everything else in the thread so probably belongs in a separate thread if people want to discuss it further.

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Well to be fair, this is a discussion thread. Quote replies are a thing so that nothing is really drowned out as long as you use that function. In the end though the topic of discussion is in lines with what we are discussing, it was simply a branch of that, of which someone started. This happens all the time in discussion threads and i don’t see much wrong with it. It gets people talking at least :)

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

I think what he is saying is that because they have established that no matter how great of a threat we are facing, we know that the main cast is going to come out clean it takes away from the story. And to be fair it does. It removes all tension and doesn't give you that moment where you unconsciously hold your breath because you are actually scared you may lose a character you love. Antagonists get disposed of all the time and that is another thing, we know that eventually the big bads, esp the sympathetic ones, are going down or changing sides.

If they would have off'd one or two of the main scions in a meaningful way it would add some much needed tension back into the story because we would not know from patch to patch if someone was actually going to face the consequences of their actions, which makes a story more thrilling in a way. Sure they offed a few characters, but we barely knew them or they were just completely faceless which still takes away the tension.

It's like playing a game with god mode on. You may have a little fun running through, destroying anything and everything in your path without having to worry about anything, but that also takes a lot of the fun, the thrill and the enjoyment out of a game. When a writer or writers turn god mode on for a character it does the same thing. You may enjoy the story but it completely removes a lot of the thrill and makes anything and everything they do somewhat meaningless.

Think about it this way. We had a powerful dude, who could destroy worlds and manipulate the life stream like it was a stream in his back yard, who could easily swat the scions aside with a snap of his fingers and yet, even when it came to the final showdown, when he had the upper hand, he attacked them and missed every single time. In fact they were so well off after that battle with this demi-god they were able to swim their way across an entire ocean and crawl up right off the coast of a major city. Now if they would have established that the scions were mortal, they could be killed, think of how dramatic that scene would have been knowing that not all of the scions were going to be safe, compared to how it was. Did they need to kill anyone in that showdown? No. But the knowledge that they could be, is what matters the most. It gives you that moment where you hold your breath, your heart begins to race and you feel real genuine fear and panic, which is just as important in this sort of story as the feelings of relief and joy you get from other situations.

That is why covering your main cast in plot armor is so terrible and a crutch for so many writers. It takes away more than it gives.

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Very well said. And this is going to be even more so the case come Endwalker, with its attempt at portraying an apocalypse.

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Originally Posted by Bacent

Chocobo boots

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One could possibly call it, chocoboots?

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Originally Posted by Dreamsoap

Cool looking monk relics

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nothing will top the rhalgar's fists eureka relic for me

Playable Bangaa. Maybe Nu Mou
It would be nice to have an "ugly" race. Somthing a bit more unique than Humans with an odd feature. The only Exception is Hrothgar, And they are still buff handsome lion folk.

Make our Grand Company memberships actually mean something. They've been basically irrelevant since the first time we met Biggs and Wedge.

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Originally Posted by Sonoskay

Playable Bangaa. Maybe Nu Mou
It would be nice to have an "ugly" race. Somthing a bit more unique than Humans with an odd feature. The only Exception is Hrothgar, And they are still buff handsome lion folk.

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I read a while back that Square wants to stay away from bestial races cuz of the furry factor, which is a mission fail cuz they have the Viera and the Miqo’te.

Even still they got Hrothgar, which are like a 3 on the scale vs Bangaa/Nu Mou’s 4. I don’t think it’ll ever happen.

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Originally Posted by SpanishInkwehsitor

I read a while back that Square wants to stay away from bestial races cuz of the furry factor, which is a mission fail cuz they have the Viera and the Miqo’te.

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Viera and Miqote are not furry. They're just humans/elves with animal ears and tail. That isn't furry, that's nekomimi.

Let's see, G'raha Tia deciding that everyone in the Bad Future needed to die so that he could save his precious WoL? That wasn't genocide? I guess not since apparently Hydaelyn Sundering the world and everyone in it (apart from 3 people) was not genocide either but merely 'sad'

I do know that the people in the Bad Future didn't die because of some unexplained 'paradox' but that has only been clear after the event. G'raha expected that he would die himself and everyone in the Bad Future with him once he changed the past enough. He decided it was worth the sacrifice even though very large numbers of people in the Bad Future didn't agree and tried to stop him. Sounds familiar? It really should....

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Let's see, G'raha Tia deciding that everyone in the Bad Future needed to die so that he could save his precious WoL? That wasn't genocide? I guess not since apparently Hydaelyn Sundering the world and everyone in it (apart from 3 people) was not genocide either but merely 'sad'

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Also so that the majority of the population of the Source, and the entire population of the First, wouldn't be wiped out by the Eighth Calamity, but who's counting.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

Let's see, G'raha Tia deciding that everyone in the Bad Future needed to die so that he could save his precious WoL? That wasn't genocide? I guess not since apparently Hydaelyn Sundering the world and everyone in it (apart from 3 people) was not genocide either but merely 'sad'

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You mean the people who came up with the plan to begin with, those people who decided that a world where the WoL lived and was able to stop the 8th Calamity was more important than the hellhole they lived each day in? It was their decision, their plan. They were the ones who originally got into Crystal Tower and woke up G'raha Tia, he didn't wake up on his own.

My reply with quote button isn't working, so apologies for that.

The people who came up with the plan to begin with were the Ironworks. The OMG short story in Tales from the Shadows makes it very clear that large numbers of folk opposed this plan, to the point where the Ironworks was under attack quite often and had to try to continue its work more or less in hiding.

And yes, of course, the plan saved all the people who had died in the Eighth Calamity. But the plan of Elidibus and Co would save all those who ceased to exist when Hydaelyn sundered the world. The point being, there is no 'right side' or 'good side'. Yoshi P expressed it much more eloquently than me in the quotes included by Theo and Laurent. No one in this struggle is evil, they're all fighting for what they see as right and just. The WoL just happens to be on one specific side and therefore that side is victorious

My biggest wish for EW is them fixing DRK Living Dead and Dark Mind. Also introducing the relic in the X.25 patch or earlier instead of the X.35 patch.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You mean the people who came up with the plan to begin with, those people who decided that a world where the WoL lived and was able to stop the 8th Calamity was more important than the hellhole they lived each day in? It was their decision, their plan. They were the ones who originally got into Crystal Tower and woke up G'raha Tia, he didn't wake up on his own.

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The problem with this is that it goes against the message they’re trying to push this expansion. About the whole “move forward toward the future.” And they try to paint it as bad that the ascians are “stuck in the past.” But instead of that other timeline working toward the future, they instead send graha back and were willing to doom that timeline, without btw, the consent of the majority. In the end though if we’re going to say it’s okay because it’s so that the source and the first survive, the same can be said for the ascian plight, where the rejoining would make the world stable again and prevent loss of life to age and illness. Again, a matter of perspective.

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Originally Posted by Elladie

The people who came up with the plan to begin with were the Ironworks. The OMG short story in Tales from the Shadows makes it very clear that large numbers of folk opposed this plan, to the point where the Ironworks was under attack quite often and had to try to continue its work more or less in hiding.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The problem with this is that it goes against the message they’re trying to push this expansion. About the whole “move forward toward the future.” And they try to paint it as bad that the ascians are “stuck in the past.” But instead of that other timeline working toward the future, they instead send graha back and were willing to doom that timeline, without btw, the consent of the majority. In the end though if we’re going to say it’s okay because it’s so that the source and the first survive, the same can be said for the ascian plight, where the rejoining would make the world stable again and prevent loss of life to age and illness. Again, a matter of perspective.

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Incorrect on both of your parts. While at first there was pushback for trying to prevent the timeline from happening to begin with, that changed when they decided to instead "Save the Warrior of Light." This resulted in them getting constant support and supplies from people who we had helped in the past.

There is also nothing mentioning them getting constantly attacked, just that members of the Ironworks began leaving in large amounts in the beginning (before deciding to save the WoL), some taking by force supplies so they could try to survive in the wild.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The problem with this is that it goes against the message they’re trying to push this expansion. About the whole “move forward toward the future.” And they try to paint it as bad that the ascians are “stuck in the past.” But instead of that other timeline working toward the future, they instead send graha back and were willing to doom that timeline, without btw, the consent of the majority. In the end though if we’re going to say it’s okay because it’s so that the source and the first survive, the same can be said for the ascian plight, where the rejoining would make the world stable again and prevent loss of life to age and illness. Again, a matter of perspective.

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If the people of the post-eighth calamity didn't do what they did, then we wouldn't have had a story, it's as simple as that. It's not like they disappear either, and they continue on their own story with Midgardsormr helping them in a new Astral age.

The point of showing everything from the ascian side is to make the story compelling. That still doesn't change the fact that they've been our enemies from the very beginning and we're not going to suddenly switch sides because we feel bad for them. And it doesn't change the fact that they're tempered either. If the ascians' goal was more morally right than ours, then the deceased but freed Emet-Selch fished out of the lifestream wouldn't have saved our lives when we fought against Elidibus, who would have won and forwarded Zodiark's plan without his intervention. We also don't have both sides of the story yet and judging by the very end of ShB, we're going to get closer to Venat/Hydaelyn and learn what happened back then in her words.

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Originally Posted by Sonoskay

It would be nice to have an "ugly" race. Somthing a bit more unique than Humans with an odd feature. The only Exception is Hrothgar, And they are still buff handsome lion folk.

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idk I think Hrothgar are hideous.

Glamour log. :(

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

If the people of the post-eighth calamity didn't do what they did, then we wouldn't have had a story, it's as simple as that. It's not like they disappear either, and they continue on their own story with Midgardsormr helping them in a new Astral age.

The point of showing everything from the ascian side is to make the story compelling. That still doesn't change the fact that they've been our enemies from the very beginning and we're not going to suddenly switch sides because we feel bad for them. And it doesn't change the fact that they're tempered either. If the ascians' goal was more morally right than ours, then the deceased but freed Emet-Selch fished out of the lifestream wouldn't have saved our lives when we fought against Elidibus, who would have won and forwarded Zodiark's plan without his intervention. We also don't have both sides of the story yet and judging by the very end of ShB, we're going to get closer to Venat/Hydaelyn and learn what happened back then in her words.

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We wouldn’t have a story sure but it still is a double standard. I’m not sure what tempering has to do with the overall situation anyhow. For all we know WoL could be tempered. The emet situation against elidibus was more of a plot device if anything which honestly didn’t make much sense on the grand scheme of things. When the devs themselves say it’s a matter of perspective and it isn’t black and white i’m inclined to believe them. Again, you can’t really argue that the rejoinings wouldn’t save more lives in the long run. It’s really the truth. We don’t have the whole side of the story know, but considering her name is literally venat and the fact she decided to go against the majority of her people without their consent and then literally shattered the world, there isn’t much she can say.

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Originally Posted by SpanishInkwehsitor

I read a while back that Square wants to stay away from bestial races cuz of the furry factor, which is a mission fail cuz they have the Viera and the Miqo’te.

Even still they got Hrothgar, which are like a 3 on the scale vs Bangaa/Nu Mou’s 4. I don’t think it’ll ever happen.

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Im gonna need a source on that Chief.
Because if that were true then we wouldn't even have beast tribes, or the Lupin, the Seeq, heck Final Fantasy as a whole wouldn't have Anthropomorphic Be-Pedal characters. And throughout the Franchise there have been tons.
This also doesnt make sense because the Hrothgar were added because YoshiP and the Devs agreed there should/needs to be a Non-Human Option to add more Variety into XIV's Player Character Choices.

Also Side Note....Viera and the Miqo’te are not Furry.
Ronso and the Burmecian, are Furry.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You mean the people who came up with the plan to begin with, those people who decided that a world where the WoL lived and was able to stop the 8th Calamity was more important than the hellhole they lived each day in? It was their decision, their plan. They were the ones who originally got into Crystal Tower and woke up G'raha Tia, he didn't wake up on his own.

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"We've got this self-sacrificing plan to at least have a chance at saving something worth saving, but if you go through with it, per our request, you're an a**hole."

Sounds fair. /s

Two things: a "flying mount" that isn't a mount at all but a pair of working wings such as the gold saucer ones but actually functional, and the reaper sprint to be a glide that lifts you a foot or so off the ground, like death itself on the move.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

Two things: a "flying mount" that isn't a mount at all but a pair of working wings such as the gold saucer ones but actually functional, and the reaper sprint to be a glide that lifts you a foot or so off the ground, like death itself on the move.

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I’m hoping reaper sprint animation is essentially magus from Chrono Trigger.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There is also nothing mentioning them getting constantly attacked

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Wasn't there an echo flashback featuring G'raha and a Biggs retrieving Count Fortemps' memoirs from Ishgard, that also happened to have them in a hurry due to the city being razed by unseen attackers? Actually, that whole scene doesn't make a lot of sense to begin with. If that's the same Biggs that was around when G'raha was sent back in time with the tower... how exactly is Ishgard even around anymore? That's, like, two hundred years after the global collapse of civilization.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Wasn't there an echo flashback featuring G'raha and a Biggs retrieving Count Fortemps' memoirs from Ishgard, that also happened to have them in a hurry due to the city being razed by unseen attackers? Actually, that whole scene doesn't make a lot of sense to begin with. If that's the same Biggs that was around when G'raha was sent back in time with the tower... how exactly is Ishgard even around anymore? That's, like, two hundred years after the global collapse of civilization.

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The global collapse was caused by Black Rose draining aether from the land. Ceruleum could no longer work, lands were unable to support plants or life. I don't think it would effect buildings at all, and considering how Ishgard is a very icy region and has food grown from far up high (possibly higher than Black Rose could reach) in the Sea of Clouds, it's possible they weren't as badly effected as the other regions. There sadly isn't enough info on that world for us to give any real info on how many cities were left, how people were surviving, etc.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The global collapse was caused by Black Rose draining aether from the land. Ceruleum could no longer work, lands were unable to support plants or life. I don't think it would effect buildings at all, and considering how Ishgard is a very icy region and has food grown from far up high (possibly higher than Black Rose could reach) in the Sea of Clouds, it's possible they weren't as badly effected as the other regions. There sadly isn't enough info on that world for us to give any real info on how many cities were left, how people were surviving, etc.

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Ishgard is a gigantic stone and wood fortress built atop a mountain, though. Without living people to perform maintenance, the elements alone would be enough to severely erode it over the course of decades. But somehow it survived, and in good enough condition that Fortemps Manor was still standing, for two hundred years.

That's a bloody miracle.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

IDK man Zenos becoming a Scion by the end of the game has a non-zero chance of being a thing.

It would be weird but weirder things happen.

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I could definitely see this happening.

My choice would be no grand redemption, no repentance or anything, just, we don't actually end up fighting him to the death (maybe we get interrupted by Zodiark or the world ending or something, and he either leaves in boredom while we deal with that, or even helps because he's mad at it for interrupting his fun) and lose track of him.

At some unspecified time later while the WoL is out, he just casually wanders into the Rising Stones without saying anything, and just casually sits down at the bar or one of the tables, somehow managing not to break the damn chair.

Naturally no one wants to risk catching his attention or annoying him, so no one says anything about or to him, let alone try to kick him out, and he's not actually doing anything or bothering anyone, so eventually Tataru brings him some tea and snacks and everyone does their best to pretend they don't notice him while they wait for the WoL to pick up their frantic linkshell calls.

The WoL is totally at a loss for what to do; Zenos is literally just sipping tea and not causing any trouble and trying to kick a fight with him would probably just end up leveling Revenant's Toll? They finally come in intending to uh, do something??? about it, IDK they always figure something out when it counts, right, they can just wing it, right? And a report about a strong new primal summoning comes in and they go 'huh' and invite Zenos to help them go deal with it.

Zenos has enough fun that he decides he's okay with maybe doing this on a regular basis, on the condition that the WoL personally pay him in sparring matches.

Everyone's still awkwardly and hilariously terrified of him except Tataru and Krille who somehow eventually manage to make him as terrified of them as everyone else is.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Ishgard is a gigantic stone and wood fortress built atop a mountain, though. Without living people to perform maintenance, the elements alone would be enough to severely erode it over the course of decades. But somehow it survived, and in good enough condition that Fortemps Manor was still standing, for two hundred years.

That's a bloody miracle.

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Would there be any elements to erode it? Everything in XIV is based on aether, even the wind and rain come from aether, with black rose still lingering about it seems reasonable to assume that the winds and rains may have all but ceased.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Would there be any elements to erode it? Everything in XIV is based on aether, even the wind and rain come from aether, with black rose still lingering about it seems reasonable to assume that the winds and rains may have all but ceased.

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If Black Rose's potency is so great that even the wind stopped, how could it spread across the globe with nothing to carry it?

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

If Black Rose's potency is so great that even the wind stopped, how could it spread across the globe with nothing to carry it?

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Because it bleeds/stagnates the aether over time? It'd need only not stifle its vectors instantly in order for it to be spread.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because it bleeds/stagnates the aether over time? It'd need only not stifle its vectors instantly in order for it to be spread.

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Does it, though? I'd been given the impression from its demonstrations throughout Stormblood that it's rapidly lethal to anyone who so much as catches a whiff of it. Empowered by the umbral aether from the First via the Rejoining, I'd expect those qualities to become more pronounced, not less.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Does it, though? I'd been given the impression from its demonstrations throughout Stormblood that it's rapidly lethal to anyone who so much as catches a whiff of it. Empowered by the umbral aether from the First via the Rejoining, I'd expect those qualities to become more pronounced, not less.

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And all the spiritual/aetheric/soul-based goings on in a human wouldn't be a bit more easily disrupted than, say, moisture being moist or difference in temperature causing air movement (let alone a solidly built stone fortress endangered only by erosion)?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And all the spiritual/aetheric/soul-based goings on in a human wouldn't be a bit more easily disrupted than, say, moisture being moist or difference in temperature causing air movement (let alone a solidly built stone fortress endangered only by erosion)?

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Are you saying, then, that the forces that make up erosion wouldn't be negated by Black Rose? Or that they would, but only after they'd killed most of the world's population? Thus conveniently preventing the destruction of Ishgard—or more specifically, Fortemps Manor—over the course of two hundred years?

Actually, another thing. How did anyone survive, period? Not just immediately, but over the course of years? The apocalypse as explained by Urianger doesn't exactly paint a picture of a world capable of sustaining life.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

If Black Rose's potency is so great that even the wind stopped, how could it spread across the globe with nothing to carry it?

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The light aether equivalent of radiation. Also doubles as explanation for how some of the world survives, as the effect is diminished the further it radiates.

Plus 200 years ain't that long, activity doesn't have to have totally stopped for Ishgard to be preserved, simply slowed. I'm pretty sure the city can survive a few light breezes and a bit of drizzle in a reasonably decent state.

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

idk I think Hrothgar are hideous.

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Specially the third and fourth faces (discount Khimari)

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Viera and Miqote are not furry. They're just humans/elves with animal ears and tail. That isn't furry, that's nekomimi.

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Thank you. Glad more people are aware of this.