Harassment to Asmongold on his 1st day stream is an Embarassment to FF Community

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

First, the fact that SE works harder to keep it's toxic community in check is great, but that only reflects positively on SE, not the community. This isn't a "better" community; it's a typical toxic online community that is being ruled with an iron fist in-game. Kudos to SE, but the community is still a typical toxic dumpster fire.

It's almost a testament to how toxic the community is that even under SE's prison camp leadership that this communities toxic elements were still so pervasive when given a little motivation. One pseudo-celebrity playing for a couple of days and people are willing to lose their accounts just to be jerks; it definitely says something about this community.

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The GMs are as only as good as the community that is proactively reporting the behavior. The GMs aren't going around and checking the logs of absolutely everyone with no apparent reason, they're being reported, and they're being reported by the players. So yes it reflects just as well on the community when they show how unwelcome they find this behavior in-game, by, you know, sending a report into GMs. Given how some people on the forums, and on the game would have you believe that you can be reported for merely having a pulse and clanging your fingers on the keyboard I would say both the community and the GMs are doing a good job. But alas when someone gets banned we're all just soft little plushie babies with a snowflake complex that doesn't tolerate any form of harassment.

You'd find this behavior practically prevalent on any game that is being played by an established streamer, that's the cost of being a streamer, especially a well-known one. Every game has toxic circles of communities, that is at least true. But to give the community overall no merit whatsoever is just silly. People were banned for it, quite a lot of people also seemed to find the behavior largely unwelcoming, and I would daresay people probably arranged groups for mass reporting those that were attempting to sabotage his experience.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

First, the fact that SE works harder to keep it's toxic community in check is great, but that only reflects positively on SE, not the community. This isn't a "better" community; it's a typical toxic online community that is being ruled with an iron fist in-game. Kudos to SE, but the community still is what it is.

It's almost a testament to how toxic FFXIV is underneath, that even under SE's prison camp leadership that this communities toxic elements were still so pervasive when given a little motivation. One pseudo-celebrity playing for a couple of days and people are willing to lose their accounts just to be jerks; it definitely says something about the community.

Not saying that every single person in the community is bad, but the community as a whole has no moral-high ground to use against any other online game.

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No, it doesn't. If anything, it shows how popular Asmongold is (hate him or love him), that he would incite such reactions.

When the US claims to be the land of the free, do you know what supports that claim? The law. An important part of a game's community is how that community is governed by the game's ToS.

You're basically just saying that the community is bad because human nature is bad. It's the law that shapes society and governs interactions. That's how you judge a community, not by whether humans will still behave well if there is no rules in place.

People who speak out against those bad behaviors is a much better showing of the community's response.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

The GMs are as only as good as the community that is proactively reporting the behavior. The GMs aren't going around and checking the logs of absolutely everyone with no apparent reason, they're being reported, and they're being reported by the players. So yes it reflects just as well on the community when they show how unwelcome they find this behavior in-game, by, you know, sending a report into GMs.

You'd find this behavior practically prevalent on any game that is being played by an established streamer, that's the cost of being a streamer, especially a well-known one. Every game has toxic circles of communities, that is at least true. But to give the community overall no merit whatsoever is just silly. People were banned for it, quite a lot of people also seemed to find the behavior largely unwelcoming, and I would daresay people probably arranged groups for mass reporting those that were attempting to sabotage his experience.

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Do you really think people in other games don't report ToS violations? FFXIV's community isn't unique or special in that regard; SE's willingness to act on them is the only difference between FFXIV and every other online game. The FFXIV community itself has done nothing to distinguish itself as being nicer than other online communities.

This Asmongold situation was just an opportunity for the community to show that it's better; but what happened was expectedly the standard fare for yet another toxic online community. The idea constantly being thrown around is that the FFXIV community is different, but it's really not.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

SE's willingness to act on them is the only difference between FFXIV and every other online game.

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And that is why FFXIV can foster a great community. Bad behaviors are restrained (for the most part), and its effect is reflected by people noticing the difference.

LANGUAGE WARNING!

So to summarize this entire thing, here's Asmongold's response to seeing the SE response:

https://youtu.be/DJ_u1DJkbjY

It's great that he's enjoying his time here, but anyone that's still stream sniping is welcoming a ban. Our GMs have done the completely expected at this point and (hopefully) this will curtail any further gate keeping toxicity related to Asmongold (or any other streamer or group for that matter). Hopefully Asmongold's time as a warrior of light will leave him a better person, and he will stick around for a long time.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why FFXIV can foster a great community. Bad behaviors are restrained (for the most part), and its effect is reflected by people noticing the difference.

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That's kind of like saying maximum security prisons are great communities because all the murderers are behaving. Great communities don't need to be subdued by armed guards to keep from attacking people. In Asmons case even SE standing there with guns wasn't enough to deter this "great" community.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Do you really think people in other games don't report ToS violations? FFXIV's community isn't unique or special in that regard; SE's willingness to act on them is the only difference between FFXIV and every other online game. The FFXIV has done literally nothing to distinguish itself as being nicer than other online communities.

This Asmongold situation was just an opportunity for the community to show that it's different; but what happened was expectedly the standard fare for yet another toxic online community. The idea constantly being thrown around is that the FFXIV community is different, but it's really not.

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I never made that assertion in the first place, my only comment was that the GMs are as good as the community. The community needs to submit reports in order for action to be taken, so it speaks as much of the community as it does the GMs. You seemed pretty apparent in trying to make it clear that SE is the only one doing the legwork here when it is a joint effort by both the players and the GMs to create action and response. If the community were as toxic as you like to believe or the people were trying to paint then these reports would scarcely happen, simple as. - We'd be too busy clawing at each other's throats.

If you are going to use every passing opportunity to paint the entire community with the same brush as what is inarguably behavior exhibited by a minority, then I hate to say it but no collective would conform to your standard of a good community, be it this game, any other game, or otherwise even real life. I've seen just as many people criticizing the behavior and utterly knocking it as there are people exhibiting it in the first place.

It's not that I'm saying this community has no toxic behavior, because it does, but quite a few other people seem awfully keen on painting the entire community with the same brush and label as what is arguably only a small amount of the playerbase exhibiting the behavior. Nah, people reporting this behavior? Definitely not showing defiance and disdain for those displaying the behavior

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

That's kind of like saying maximum security prisons are great communities because all the murderers are behaving. Great communities don't need to be subdued by armed guards to keep from attacking people. In Asmons case even SE standing there with guns wasn't enough to deter this "great" community.

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Prisoners are not free to leave. Community members are free to leave if they don't want to behave well.

Prisoners are not getting kicked out for behaving badly. Community members will get banned if they do.

SE is not subduing anyone with armed guards.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

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My point is that this community is pretty much the same as every other online community, with the standard amount of toxicity and bad people.

These little passing opportunities are how FFXIV would distinguish itself from other online communities, if FFXIV wanted to claim some kind of moral superiority. Any time the community is tested like this the result will be the same, though, because this community isn't actually any different.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Prisoners are not free to leave. Community members are free to leave if they don't want to behave well.

Prisoners are not getting kicked out for behaving badly. Community members will get banned if they do.

SE is not subduing anyone with armed guards.

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Obviously not literal armed guards; they're subduing people with a threat of expulsion like prisoners are subdued with threat of removal from gen pop or worse. People in FFXIV are sort of behaving sometimes for the same general reason as prisoners behave; very strict rules.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

My point is that this community is pretty much the same as every other online community, with the standard amount of toxicity and bad people.

These little passing opportunities are how FFXIV would distinguish itself from other online communities, if FFXIV wanted to claim some kind of moral superiority. Any time the community is tested like this the result will be the same, though, because this community isn't actually any different.

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Sure, it can be just as good, it can be just as bad, but people seem awfully eager to point out the bad, exclusively. with giving very little merit to the good, all just to try and promote the cause of sticking it to the evangelists - The people actually going out there and reporting those sabotaging the experience of someone who just wants to enjoy the game and stream it to his community are worthy of praise not disdain by painting them with the same brush of absurd toxicity.

But like I said if you paint the community with the same brush as the behavior displayed by a minority, then no community will ever reach your standard of conforming to a good community, ever. That's just basic human interaction and behavior. No matter how well regarded or spoken that community is. XIV is no exception. People here are just using the opportunity to 'stick it to the evangelists' - In this regard just as bad as each other.

EDIT: But I see at this point I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, more just venting.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Sure, it can be just as good, it can be just as bad, but people seem awfully eager to point out the bad, with giving very little merit to the good, all just to try and promote the cause of sticking it to the evangelists - The people actually going out there and reporting those sabotaging the experience of someone who just wants to enjoy the game and stream it to his community are worthy of praise not disdain by painting them with the same brush of absurd toxicity.

But like I said if you paint the community with the same brush as the behavior displayed by a minority, then no community will ever reach your standard of conforming to a good community, ever. That's just basic human interaction and behavior. No matter how well regarded or spoken that community is. XIV is no exception. People here are just using the opportunity to 'stick it to the evangelists' - In this regard just as bad as each other.

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The FFXIV community props itself up as being 'nicer' and 'better' than standard online communities. If you want that distinction then it comes with some extra scrutiny and obligation to actually be better.

When a community attempts to high-road other games, and then has something like this happen, people are obviously going to point it out.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The FFXIV community props itself up as being 'nicer' and 'better' than standard online communities. If you want that distinction then it comes with some extra scrutiny and obligation to actually be better.

When a community attempts to high-road other games, and then has something like this happen, people are obviously going to point it out.

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But using the fact it has happened to try to smear the entire community as bad is...well, it's like you're trying to use what happened to justify treating people horribly like some do outside the game. It tends to irritate and piss people off.

I'd like to point out the ToS rework happened in the latter half of Stormblood, and that the idea of the community being morally superior LOOOOONG predates that. Enforcement was much more sparse in ARR and HW, but the community attitude was pretty much the same.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

But using the fact it has happened to try to smear the entire community as bad is...well, it's like you're trying to justify treating people horribly like some do outside the game. It tends to irritate and piss people off.

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The FFXIV community just had a "we're not toxic like those OTHER games" moral high ground it's been trying to establish, and this just kind of shot it to hell. The community set itself up to eat some crow and face scrutiny on this one.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The FFXIV community just had a "we're not toxic like those OTHER games" moral high ground it's been trying to establish, and this just kind of shot it to hell. The community set itself up to eat some crow and face scrutiny on this one.

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And we should spend this time to reflect on that... and also go get some ketchup as it makes the bird more palatable.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The FFXIV community props itself up as being 'nicer' and 'better' than standard online communities. If you want that distinction then it comes with some extra scrutiny and obligation to actually be better.

When a community attempts to high-road other games, and then has something like this happen, people are obviously going to point it out.

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Yes, extra scrutiny and an obligation to show that it is better and to take into account the entirety of the situation not just cherry-picking the evidence and facts based on a limited exploration into the matter 10 minutes after its occurrence. People didn't even give the community the chance to show large disapproval or agreement for the behavior before taking on the toxic generalism for the entire community, before going even as far as to say the GMs or SE will do nothing.

Both are self-defeating measurements, outlooks, and assertions being made, especially when all that is being done is trying to create or find exceptions. Of the potentially thousands of interactions that occur on a daily basis in this game, people are going to call the entire community toxic just based on one, or a couple. Now, granted this works vice versa for the evangelists. But there's only so far you can take such absurd generalizations regardless of which side of the coin you place yourself on.

Saying the community has incredibly toxic and unwelcoming individuals, sure I'd agree with you on every single occasion you want to make this assertion, but to call a community toxic, an entire community, mind you, not just select individuals toxic is where you will get issues, especially when on these occasions you have an abundance of people shunning the behavior.

People don't like having negative connotations attached to their names in a mind-boggling generalization based on the actions of a very small portion of the community.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Saying the community has incredibly toxic and unwelcoming individuals, sure I'd agree with you on every single occasion you want to make this assertion, but to call a community toxic, an entire community, mind you, not just select individuals toxic is where you will get issues, especially when on these occasions you have an abundance of people shunning the behavior.

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You're a little too hung up on semantics. No one actually thinks that every single person in this, or any community is toxic. It's ALWAYS a minority.

Problem is the FFXIV community has been trying to sell itself as being different; the exception to the rule that online games have these pervasive toxic elements. It may be a minority, but this WAS still large scale targeted harassment; it was bad. The majority denouncing stuff like this is what would/should happen in any online game, but FFXIV undeniably has a strong pool of toxicity, same as any other online community. This community is not different and it's not better.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You're a little too hung up on semantics. No one actually thinks that every single person in this, or any community is toxic. It's ALWAYS a minority.

Problem is the FFXIV community has been trying to sell itself as being different; the exception to the rule that online games have these pervasive toxic elements. It may be a minority, but this WAS still large scale targeted harassment. The majority denouncing stuff like this is what would/should happen in any online game, but FFXIV undeniably has a strong toxic element same as any other online community. It's community is not different and it's not better.

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It is different.
No...its not toxic like those other communities and yes...it IS better.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Saying the community has incredibly toxic and unwelcoming individuals, sure I'd agree with you on every single occasion you want to make this assertion, but to call a community toxic, an entire community, mind you, not just select individuals toxic is where you will get issues, especially when on these occasions you have an abundance of people shunning the behavior.

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I think this is something we're going to look back on as a faceplant, but from this point forward it matters how we react to what has gone done thus far.

If we truly are one of the best communities around, we need to be loud and clear in our condemnation of stream sniping and gatekeeping. We must do whatever we can (within the TOS and CoC) to shut down the stream sniping and gate keeping behavior. We need to be supportive and welcoming to new players, yet restrained and respectful with giving them help so we don't send them to information overload and only giving them help when they are asking for it. We need to be patient with the sprouts, for they are our future and we must show them the way.

We can do this, and we can show the rest of the world why we are #1.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

We can do this, and we can show the rest of the world why we are #1.

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Cringe..
/10char

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The FFXIV community just had a "we're not toxic like those OTHER games" moral high ground it's been trying to establish, and this just kind of shot it to hell. The community set itself up to eat some crow and face scrutiny on this one.

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I think the fact that this thread and this discussion exist already proven that you are wrong. A toxic community would be posting celebratory posts on what those people did to Asmongold.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You're a little too hung up on semantics. No one actually thinks that every single person in this, or any community is toxic. It's ALWAYS a minority.

Problem is the FFXIV community has been trying to sell itself as being different; the exception to the rule that online games have these pervasive toxic elements. It may be a minority, but this WAS still large scale targeted harassment. The majority denouncing stuff like this is what would/should happen in any online game, but FFXIV undeniably has a strong toxic element same as any other online community. It's community is not different and it's not better.

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If it's always a minority then maybe people should stop taking on a crusade that the community is toxic. It's a behavior akin to, if not worse than the 'evangelists', and I don't mean because toxicity doesn't exist. I mean because those trying to show otherwise blatantly know exactly why this is poor etiquette and practice to do in general. Simple as that.

You see this is where my issue comes into play, much as they are trying to sell the community as being this perfect paradise without issues, there are people here doing the exact same from a negative side of the coin. Both are disingenuously painting. Both are hyperbolic. Both should know better. Of course, this would be large-scale. He's a streamer that generates tens of thousands of views each stream, I don't think the following there was there just with the exclusive intent of harassing him. Just leave them alone and stop doing the exact same thing that they're doing (Ref; evangelists). -- Granted I'm more directing this to a larger audience and not you exclusively.

It's at least nice to converse/debate with you, especially on better pretenses than last time. I think I've spent enough of my time in this cesspit, however.

Thank you so much to the people letting Asmongold play the game now :) It's great advertisement for the game :)

He's still getting over 100k viewers also too :)

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Originally Posted by Rae88

Thank you so much to the people letting Asmongold play the game now :) It's great advertisement for the game :)

He's still getting over 100k viewers also too :)

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I'm just embarrassed that the GMs even had to step in in the first place. :(

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If it's always a minority then maybe people should stop taking on a crusade that the community is toxic.

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I do just wanna point out plenty pulled the exact same card on WoW's community. The toxicity there is also the minority, very very easily the minority, and despite that people here have sung high and low about how it's practically everybody over there.

Both will always have good apples, both will always have bad apples, and there's always going to be more good than bad apples, because negativity can stick. I still stand that my worst experience for mmo's was here, not WoW, and from what I've seen with my time over there, people that want to succeed in a fun environment are not toxic, because you can't make a fun environment like that.

I don't think we should call every ffxiv player toxic either, and I doubt most are. If someone is actually saying every single person on ffxiv is toxic, ignore them, they're insane. This 'crusade' is just to make sure it's put forward, that we should not be pretending that this game's community is the saving grace of god, and is perfect. It's not, we do dumb stuff too, and we should learn from it to improve.

I don't really see people saying that the whole of WoW community is toxic (except a very small amount of trolls like the ones harassing Asmongold), just that their experiences with WoW and how much toxicity there is was a major reason they left the game and that their experiences in FF14 was the exact opposite of that. I'm one of them. The toxicity of WoW is blatant and consistent, I'd see examples of harassments every few days of playing WoW, in FF14 I can probably count the amount of times I've seen that behavior with my hands and I've been playing years. This is my personal experience, and it is one that seems to be the most common.
I can understand it might seem like players are saying all of the WoW community is like that as often times the personal experiences aspect is more than not implied instead of out right spoken. Honestly it shouldn't even need to be clarified as it should be common sense. However, in this day and age people jump to extremes so when somebody says "wow players are toxic so i left WoW" instead of reading it as "I experienced a lot of toxicity in WoW" they read it as "ALL wow players are toxic" which is an impossible case. Just like a community can never be without toxicity the opposite can also be true.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

This 'crusade' is just to make sure it's put forward, that we should not be pretending that this game's community is the saving grace of god, and is perfect. It's not, we do dumb stuff too, and we should learn from it to improve.

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Again.. nobody says this. This is always exaggeration from the "but FFXIV is actually more toxic than everyone" people.

When people talk about FFXIV's community it's always "everyone is so nice" or "it was so much less toxic than whatevergame". Not "the community is perfect!" or "the FFXIV community is better than all the other games!" .

If you can't separate "so nice" from "saving grace of god", then it's probably you being a little oversensitive and looking for something to complain about. It's a little weird just how hard some people are going just to try and counter a claim that is never made.

I'd like to remind people that while this was most definitely an outlier people who watched/listened to and laughed at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUXdcrSbIho
(the 50 DKP minus onyxia raid, warning language, very crude adult humor)
Laughed in part because a lot of us knew players/leaders like this. This was something that some guilds/raider statics were like.

These kinds of people play FFXIV as well and I won't say you can't have this experience in both games.


BUT..

It's one of those things WoW players look back at and go "yeah.. it was like that sometimes". WoW has this reputation that may or may not be deserved because of how long it's been around and how the game encourages progression over nearly anything else (including tact). FFXIV has strict rules that are pretty constantly enforced and the threat of losing access over the petty crap WoW players just take for granted makes people "behave".


We are not a perfect or idyllic community, but people seem to be surprised with how much "nicer" and more "helpful" we are. You can't just discount those accounts. And these aren't from FFXIV players blowing smoke up each others bottoms either. These accounts are usually from players transferring games. There's like 5-10 series right now trending on youtube of specifically WoW players saying this.


Yeah, we aren't perfect by any measure. But something is different and tends to be leaving a positive impression. Why must the reaction be "BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE REAL PLAYER BASE!! THEY ARE NOTHING LIKE WHAT YOU THINK!!!"

What if the "harassment" is good for Asmongold's brand and what a small number of players do says nothing about the player base as a whole?

What if—and I'm just speculating here—all of this drama amounts to nothing either way?

Just play the game and move on with your lives.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

If it's always a minority then maybe people should stop taking on a crusade that the community is toxic. It's a behavior akin to, if not worse than the 'evangelists', and I don't mean because toxicity doesn't exist. I mean because those trying to show otherwise blatantly know exactly why this is poor etiquette and practice to do in general. Simple as that.

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This 'crusade' is just a natural response to how genuinely self-righteous this community can become regarding it's supposed moral superiority. A community can't preach and highroad for as long as this one has and then skate by with no ridicule when it's responsible for some of the most excessive, high profile toxic behavior this genre has seen in a while.

When people say the community is toxic they're referring specifically to the toxicity, and they're right. It doesn't mean they're talking about you, or even the majority of the players. The toxicity is there, though, and FFXIV more than most games should be called out on it, because this community more than most likes to pretend it doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by ksuyen

I think the fact that this thread and this discussion exist already proven that you are wrong. A toxic community would be posting celebratory posts on what those people did to Asmongold.

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While I do believe the majority of players in ALL online games are nice, this is still just one thread and a handful of people. I'd argue a community that considers itself as genuinely kind as this one does wouldn't have needed a GM response and a banwave to stop it's players from gang harassing someone just because he's a high-profile player of a different game.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This 'crusade' is just a natural response to how genuinely self-righteous this community can become regarding it's supposed moral superiority. A community can't preach and highroad for as long as this one has and then skate by with no ridicule when it's responsible for some of the most excessive, high profile toxic behavior this genre has seen in a while.

When people say the community is toxic they're referring specifically to the toxicity, and they're right. It doesn't mean they're talking about you, or even the majority of the players. The toxicity is there, though, and FFXIV more than most games should be called out on it, because this community more than most likes to pretend it doesn't exist.


While I do believe the majority of players in ALL online games are nice, this is still just one thread and a handful of people. I'd argue a community that considers itself as genuinely kind as this one does wouldn't have needed a GM response and a banwave to stop it's players from gang harassing someone just because he's a high-profile player of a different game.

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I dont see many people claiming toxicity doesn't exist, I do see a lot of people claiming other people are claiming it doesn't exist though.

I think most people with a double digit IQ are more than aware in any large community there will be unsavoury people.

When this subject comes up, for the 18th time on any given day on the forums I always think of this,

"If on your way to work you met a rude person, move on and forget about it, rude people exist. However, if by the time you get home you have done nothing but deal with rude people all day the chances are the rude person is you"

People will generally reflect your own attitude back at you. There are exceptions, but if its a common problem you have, use a mirror.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

I dont see many people claiming toxicity doesn't exist, I do see a lot of people claiming other people are claiming it doesn't exist though.

I think most people with a double digit IQ are more than aware in any large community there will be unsavoury people.

When this subject comes up, for the 18th time on any given day on the forums I always think of this,

"If on your way to work you met a rude person, move on and forget about it, rude people exist. However, if by the time you get home you have done nothing but deal with rude people all day the chances are the rude person is you"

People will generally reflect your own attitude back at you. There are exceptions, but if its a common problem you have, use a mirror.

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People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.
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"You don't pay my sub" being pretty much a meme now being a good example, toxicity in this community has always been acknowledged and NOBODY claims or has claimed there is no toxicity in FFXIV. The only people I ever see making that claim are those who make it FOR other people who they then argue against. It's pretty much a beaten and tired as hell strawman that people like to march out when people dare to say subjective things like "People have been so friendly here" or "this is so much better than gameIplayedbefore".

and look at how you're framing this, you start with the claim that "This community is toxic". No it's not. It contains toxicity like every community does. But this does not make the entire community toxic.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

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I will argue up and down that playing FFXIV does not give you moral superiority to someone who plays other games. As far as I'm concerned we're just gamers and it's the game and framework we worth within that is giving people better EXPERIENCES than in other games. This doesn't mean people aren't having BAD experiences. This doesn't mean people aren't being their same crappy selves that they are in other games. Just that people seem to report positive experiences when swapping to FFXIV a lot and people who play this game a lot seem to feel that overall the hostility and BM occurrences are lower.


What exactly is it you want from the community at large? What would you like them to address that isn't already well known and acknowledged as well as discussed?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

What exactly is it you want from the community at large? What would you like them to address that isn't already well known and acknowledged as well as discussed?

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I'm mainly addressing the people who still believe that FFXIV has a nicer, kinder, better community than other online games. This was a high profile, excessive, systematic harassment of one person; and should be a wakeup call for anyone who was under the delusion that this game was some kind of exception when it comes to toxic online communities.

I'm just doing my part to see this incident doesn't get swept under the rug, because I'm sure plenty of people want everyone to just move on so the FFXIV community doesn't face the scrutiny it deserves for this.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

People would be hard pressed to claim this community isn't toxic now, so yes some people are admitting the toxic element exists.

The problem is that plenty are still clinging to the idea that this community is somehow morally superior to that of other games. They basically hold other games accountable for their toxic players, while apparently the crappy things this community does to people don't count because "bad people exist; deal with it!"

This community has real issues that should probably be acknowledged; not dismissed and avoided.

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You are using a very broad brush to tar a whole.community. Sure, there have been some hot takes on the Asmongold harassment but far more people seem to be cheering the bans and condemning it, and rightly so. People don't claim this community is perfect and saintly and they never have, not in the time I've been playing anyway.

What people do say is its a nice community which for the most part it is. The problem is the current bandwagon is to rail against that idea and cherry pick every single toxic thing someone encounters and then extrapolate that to the whole player base.

Its not a coincidence that new players, especially those with an audience talk about how nice everyone is. They are obviously on their sprout honeymoon period but the player base is generally chill if not overtly friendly.

Treat people nice in this game and you generally get the same back aside from the odd exception. Toxic is relative, but to me this community is not even close to the worst out there. I've been told that passive aggression is worse than actual aggression, I'd like that person to play CoD for a bit, then see if they still think "you don't pay my sub" is worse than a dictionary of insults being thrown at you including racism and xenophobia just because someone doesn't like the gun you use or your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm mainly addressing the people who still believe that FFXIV has a nicer, kinder, better community than other online games. This was a high profile, excessive systematic harassment of one person and should be a wakeup call for anyone who was under the delusion that this game was some kind of exception when it comes to toxic online communities. I'm just doing my part to see this incident doesn't get swept under the rug, because I'm sure plenty of people want everyone to just move on so FFXIV doesn't face the scrutiny it deserves for this.

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Scrutiny for the harassment of a prominent streamer who gets this treatment pretty much every single new game he plays?

No it wasn't a good look for FFXIV. Sure. But if we go with what the aftermath is: Quick GM action (which surprised even Asmon), multiple community outlets having players decrying the actions of those who harassed him and wishing him nothing but unmolested play in the future (yes there are still haters and zealots out there and nobody is saying they don't exist), it seems that the game experience, even for the streamer who expected this to happen, seems to be pretty good.

I watched his streams too. Hours and hours of them. You know what I saw? People in his instanced runs (he pretty much just straight up random queued DF) who let him just play and didn't get all gross when he was single pulling every single dungeon he did (to Asmons credit he adapted to tanking pretty quick). People trying their hardest to give him good advice within the spam and immediately trying to help him minimize the interference he was getting who must have been FFXIV players by their familiarity with the game (they can also be his community members, this isn't exclusive. In fact contrary to the narrative I've been reading there's probably a pretty large contingent of actual longtime FFXIV players in his audience) .


Pointing to his experience though as some revelation of the "true FFXIV community" is super disingenuous too . His experience is most assuredly a unique one considering his position and circumstance and any good faith argument has to admit it's not indicative in any measure of what someone playing the game will go through. It's like judging a restaurant on their service and staff when someone famous comes in to eat with their entourage, it's just a circus. You're much better off looking at smaller content creators and individual "nobody" accounts for any sort of real measure.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

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This is all fine, but you have to understand that for a long time this community has been self-promoting the idea that it lacks the toxicity of other similar communities. This community more than pretty much any other gaming community I've ever seen, has been self-anointing it's moral superiority. For this community to then turn around and be the source of a very high-profile display of large scale harassment should be eye-opening.

Some people who came from WoW having a better experience here is nice, but that doesn't make this go away. This was a very blatant, very visible showing of what this community is capable of.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Pointing to his experience though as some revelation of the "true FFXIV community" is super disingenuous too . His experience is most assuredly a unique one considering his position and circumstance and any good faith argument has to admit it's not indicative in any measure of what someone playing the game will go through. It's like judging a restaurant on their service and staff when someone famous comes in to eat with their entourage, it's just a circus. You're much better off looking at smaller content creators and individual "nobody" accounts for any sort of real measure.

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Never said this was indicative of what every new players experience will be, but it is absolutely indicative of what this community can and will do to people it views as outsiders. This wasn't a handful of people being jerks in DF, it was a large scale concerted effort by a contingent of this community to harass 1 person simply because he's from a different game. Like it or not that kind of thing leaves a mark on this community.

I'm not condemning everyone who plays the game, or even saying FFXIV is worse than other games. What I am saying is that this game isn't a bastion or exception to the rules regarding toxic online communities.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

While I do believe the majority of players in ALL online games are nice, this is still just one thread and a handful of people. I'd argue a community that considers itself as genuinely kind as this one does wouldn't have needed a GM response and a banwave to stop it's players from gang harassing someone just because he's a high-profile player of a different game.

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Admittedly not every players jump into the forum, but what numbers represented here play equally in ratio to both non-toxic and toxic people. As for the matter of GM handing over bans, that's their role. They are expected to respond if any players had broken any rules as written in T&C. It happened before, it will happen again, it's nothing new just because a certain well known person caused it. It is not the right tool to measure the community toxicity level by any standards.

Without risking to sound repetitive, I echo the sentiment of general opinions here. The community in FFXIV is far from perfect, just like any communities that exist in the world. There are always some bad among the good. Without going to compare it to any other MMOs, I am however convinced that the bad is almost negligible as a whole. Players enjoy playing in FFXIV and interact with others because they feel safe and genuinely feel the system in place is one that promotes healthy and supportive community.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

but it is absolutely indicative of what this community can and will do to people it views as outsiders. This wasn't a handful of people being jerks in DF, it was a large scale concerted effort by a contingent of this community to harass 1 person simply because he's from a different game. Like it or not that kind of thing leaves a mark on this community.

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You're being either incredibly uninformed or stubborn if you can say this. It's not indicative of what ANY new player who is not a famous established streamer with a following and persona like Asmongolds will experience. Absolutely none of them.

Whether or not you know or knew who Asmongold was before this, LOTS of people do know who he is and what his content is. He is a prominent WoW player and consistently pits WoW against any game he plays. His persona does things like joking about how FFXIV is full of weebs and "dudes playing catgirls" (which.. is kinda true but people don't like this being framed as a negative thing). He (as his character) makes snap judgements about things people may personally value or be insulted by their trivialization or mockery" "Man.. that mount looks stupid!" . OUTSIDE his actual fans he has a reputation for a toxic (read: oldschool non-PC) community who make crude jokes, mildly sexist references and comments and enjoy antagonistic humor. People LOVE to antagonize streamers. It's entertaining to watch their reactions and it's been commented upon by streamers themselves that the quickest way to making money is to monetize your audience annoying you. Have a stream where you're supposed to be "quiet" or walk around in an area with a lot of strangers and turn on Text To Speech for money or allow embarrassing or obnoxious sounds to be played for money. People will happily keep paying to antagonize the streamer and watch them squirm. It is a huge pull for streamer audiences to annoy the streamer and this was a HUGE chance to do that and be broadcasted on a "famous" channel at the same time.


Exceedingly little of this is "simply because he's from a different game". It is because Asmongold is Asmongold and the entirety of his history, persona, community and circumstance culminate in this kind of thing happening WHEREVER HE GOES. He doesn't deserve it as a person. It's crappy that this is HIS experience, but it's not surprising or unexpected.

EDIT: Please watch this that details some good points about why streaming an MMO as a content creator isn't like playing one as a regular player.
https://youtu.be/2psXI0mJsuA?t=632
Timestamped for relevance to the discussion but the whole video is some good stuff for perspective on what a streamer experiences and is concentrating on VS what a gamer experiences.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I'm not condemning everyone who plays the game, or even saying FFXIV is worse than other games. What I am saying is that this game isn't a bastion or exception to the rules regarding toxic online communities.

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And nobody has ever said that FFXIV is the bastion of good players or any sort of exception to the fact that toxic gamers play every single game. What people say is that the experience of playing it , lots of times in comparison to the game they just left or have been playing for a while, is pretty Nice. People seem friendly and helpful and IT SEEMS there's a lot less toxic language and behavior flying round.

You, and many who post similar things to you are arguing against a position next to nobody has.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is all fine, but you have to understand that for a long time this community has been self-promoting the idea that it lacks the toxicity of other similar communities. This community more than pretty much any other gaming community I've ever seen, has been self-anointing it's moral superiority. For this community to then turn around and be the source of a very high-profile display of large scale harassment should be eye-opening.

Some people who came from WoW having a better experience here is nice, but that doesn't make this go away. This was a very blatant, very visible showing of what this community is capable of.

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I've been a part of the FF online community for a very long time, I can assure you I am at peace with what it is and understand it.

You seem to be suggesting we needed a wake up call and it still hasn't sunk in yet. I disagree, you won't find it hard to find people disgusted with what we all saw, happy that bans are being issued and hoping the harassment stops, pronto. If you dig hard enough and quote mine enough I'm sure you can find a few people who think it was a good thing, but they do seem to be the minority, and a small one at that.

On the other hand, you don't have to look far to find the players of this game being berated over it, there must be half a dozen threads on it by now and the always witty and hilarious gcbtw meme is getting parroted by many many posters. We get it, people have a point to prove, it didn't need proving but don't worry, you all made the point and everyone heard you.

The harassment has mostly subsided by now, so I think the GMs have done a great job in scaring the rest to run away.