Those are epithets, not pronouns.Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyMcFly
Pronouns???
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05-20-2021, 03:40 AMIscah
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05-20-2021, 03:57 AMAwha
I have someone on our R&D team that appears to change their preferred pronouns fairly regularly. Think they are gender fuild, it is fairly annoying cause they have gone to HR a few times since when we use neutral terms like they / them when they do not like those markers we have been told it creates an hostile and unwelcoming work environment.
So personally I can see why SE would want to go down that potential rabbit hole where they are trying to appease everyone. -
05-20-2021, 03:58 AMPentheaBut they are. Even outside of LGBTQ+ circles people do purposefully use incorrect pronouns to hurt someone. I'm cis and straight, and grew up around people who are cis and straight, and when I was a child some of those people sometimes referred to me as "he" just because I liked doing some stuff that was traditionally for boys. I wasn't even a tomboy, I still liked many girly things. But I also liked toys and cartoons that were aimed at boys. Some people thought I shouldn't be engaging in both and would refer to me as "he" with the intention of shaming me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
I knew nothing about LGBTQ+ at that age, there was no social movement regarding pronouns at the time...and it still hurt me when I was referred to as if I was a boy when I knew myself to be a girl. Intentional incorrect use of pronouns was a tool used to bully me. Incorrect pronouns being directed at someone isn't something that can only begin when someone who is LGBTQ+ is involved. I have seen cis and straight adults do this to one another when a person deems someone to be acting inappropriately for their gender.
What I went through is not comparable to someone trans being referred to as the gender they don't identify with given I did not ever suffer from body or gender related dysphoria, but I still do understand that it's hurtful when people use pronouns that you don't feel match who you are because that has happened to me. It sucks to say the least.
I'm very fortunate that period of my life didn't last for very long. If only every trans and non-binary person could say the same. -
05-20-2021, 04:09 AMNothv13I grew up the same. You know what stopped it? Me no longer caring. Suddenly it no longer hurt me and the people doing it stopped as I no longer gave them what they wanted. You decide if words hurt you or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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05-20-2021, 04:19 AMlezard21There is even a South Park episode about this. When South Park is more mature than some adults then you need to start worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothv13
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05-20-2021, 04:54 AMPenthea...I was seven years old. You really expect someone that young to have the presence of mind to come to those conclusions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothv13
As for how it stopped I can only guess it's because it didn't make me stop playing with "boy's" toys so they got bored of trying to insult me. -
05-20-2021, 05:01 AMNothv13Yeah? I never said it was easy. It took me into my last year of high school. The issue is that adults are still acting like the 7 year old you without the maturity to not let things get to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
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05-20-2021, 05:08 AMPentheaWell for me it really was in early childhood and it was mostly other kids in the neighbourhood who were saying it to me, though they probably learned that behaviour from their parents. When I encountered adults with the same behaviour I was already in my teens and by then I was just like "whatever I do what I want".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothv13
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05-20-2021, 05:58 AMGula
This isn't your twitter bio no thanks.
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05-20-2021, 08:43 AMJuzjuzzYes ppl guive importance to pronouns and it's a mistake. You got hurt because you were thinking it was more than it should be. Ppl used pronouns to hurt you because they think it's important to see you as a "girl who likes only girly things like other girls". But in reality your pronoun is not there to please anyone, including you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
And for the bullying, i'm not saying it's your 100% fault, that you could resolve it yourself, it's not easy for everyone to deal with that. Idk what the exact situation was so judging is useless (and even if i knew what can i say?). It sucks that's all, only thing we can do is learning and i say what i think.
Some people just can't accept whats different that's all, even today. They don't get why ppl like certains things so they fear it. It's funny coming from me who says "pronouns choices is a bad thing" but whats the point of pronouns in the 1rst place? Just making a guy who wanted to be girl feel better? Is that even a good thing? He could be as girly as he wants and still being called "he".
Words are tools, and like any tool they can hurt you if you use them in the wrong way. Even if it's other ppl who say something, you still used the words directed to you (you have to understand what they mean etc...). If you let some words be more than a tool, it will get in your head and hurt you (or at least everything tied to that word will make you angry or sad etc).
Same thing for the LGBTQ+, pronouns are not "i see myself as". It's "i'm born with a male/female body". -
05-20-2021, 10:46 AMjuicybug
This is a fantasy world. The idea of Trans LGBTQABCDEFG+-= may not exist in the world of FFXIV. Real world elements don't have to exist in every written setting. I don't think they need to pull every line of dialogue where the WoL is referenced as Sir, Mr., Lass, Madam, Miss/Ms., My lady/lordship etc. as the translation might be off or nonexistent in other languages, also it seems like a huge waste of resources. Maybe something in future dialogues allowing the use of the word "Ser" rather than sir/miss, since it's refers to a person in instances where the gender is not known or not important, it's just a respective title given to those of non noble birth and obtain a "knight" like rank. It could be better in that case of avoiding first world problems like forcing labels. The real problem with this game is the lackluster character creation options. I should be able to wear lipstick, eyeshadow, blush, and a face stamp/tattoo all at once and not pick one over the other- also needs better hairstyles no more solo bang, spiky cloud-like hairstyles or mullets. The other issue I have is the fact that Viera and Hrothgar likely will not be getting any visual additions like new hairstyles or faces in more years to come but yay, male viera who also can't wear hats and will not get any new hairs.
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05-20-2021, 11:15 AMPentheaNo I got hurt because they tried to make me feel like I didn't belong anywhere because I supposedly could never be a proper boy or girl. They didn't refer to me with pronouns and otherwise treated me well. Their pronoun use was often paired with bullying me. An older kid even joked about pulling down my pants to see what I really am. They gave pronouns huge importance and negative connotations, not me. Please don't tell me how I felt and why. Only I know this, not you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
And frankly it's disgusting that you are implying it's seven year old me's fault for wanting to be addressed as who I am. Oh yea how dare a child want to feel comfortable in their own skin. How ridiculous I was to want to be able to like both barbies and transformers and still be seen as a girl without having to justify why who I am is an okay thing.
While you're at it you may as well say "what's the point in names in the first place? Just to make a girl who wants to be called John feel better? Is that even a good thing? She could be as John as she wants and still be called Mary".Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
Pronouns are often used in place of a name, so they often -feel- like a name. If I say I'm Mary don't call me John. If I say I'm a she don't call me he. It's really that simple.
I never had gender identity issues. I had issues with other people's ideas of gender identity being forced upon me.
As I already said I'm fortunate that period didn't last very long. I'm very stubborn so I didn't stop playing with boy and girls toys. I can only guess the bullying stopped because it didn't have the desired effect. The only thing I changed was I tried to avoid those people. I didn't try to avoid being who I am to please them. Their actions made me feel very unhappy but I didn't give in.
I only had a super tiny taste of what it's like to be trans or non-binary. And that taste was still so horrible. I never forgot it. Which is hugely why I address someone by whatever they choose. I don't want to make someone else feel the way I did. Not even by the smallest bit. It was cruel and I don't want to be cruel. -
05-20-2021, 11:43 AMTheodric
Unfortunately people get bullied for all sorts of different reasons. Some people are bullied for being too short, others for being too tall. Some get bullied for wearing glasses, others get bullied for being quiet and so on and so forth. I don't think people should feel as if their experiences are more or less important than anybody else's in that regard. I've got a scar from a knife wound from a violent mugging, for example, though I worked through my trauma and I'd never once imply that other people's own experiences are better or worse than my own.
As a gay guy, I also strive for equality which means that, in my opinion, I should be treated as just another normal person rather than a delicate flower that needs to be catered to and protected at every cost. Indeed, the only times I have ever encountered homophobia in my life is whenever I've shot down attempts by 'concerned parties' to exploit me as a means of virtue signaling...but that's a debate best suited to elsewhere, I suppose.
Each to their own, though, I suppose. -
05-20-2021, 12:20 PMStriderShinryu
I don't have any issues at all with introducing a pronoun selection. Unfortunately, as many others have stated, it would probably take a lot of work in the coding end to make it work.
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05-20-2021, 06:13 PMJuzjuzzI never said it's your fault if other kids started to bully you. I just think it's was possible to not even get hurt from the start and i'm not saying it's easy. Even if other kids started and did bad things to you, understanding that you could have done a better job defending yourself is a step in the right direction (for you 1rst and maybe other ppl). Not putting too much importance to some words is a good way to not get hurt imo (just like you use a knife with caution).Quote:
Originally Posted by Penthea
Yes you can love to do wtf you want, i loved to play barbies as a kid and i am a straight man (played female miqo when i started the game, tried female roe too lol), but it has nothing to do with pronouns. It's not here to say "i am feminine/masculine/gay/straight/like girls things/like boy things/(insert wtf you want there)". It's just here to show witch gender you are born with and this has nothing to with how you feel.
Your don't have to justify anything and never had to. You didn't have a choice in the pronoun you got, other ppl as well. You don't have to justify liking something or how you behave. As long as you don't force others into anything, no one should care. And other don't have to force you into anything. That's why i say pronouns are not there for feelings.
I wouldnt be surprised same ppl who bullied you where using pronouns for feelings as well.
Pronouns are not the same thing as a name. The two are linked (because the name you get can be linked to your gender), but it's two different things. Parents choose the name of their children, not their gender. Children don't choose their names. But pronouns are not here to feel like a name, names are here for that. Using pronouns and names in the same manner is a bad idea.
Your name is not here for show what you should be and not "i see myself as". In the most basic level, it's only here to make communications easier (and i prefer using names like that, it's way less confusing lol).
I understand that's a painful experience but it doesn't change my mind, in fact i'm even more convinced that gender choice is not a good thing. I think gender choice guives more pain, it looks nice and gentle but it's really not imo.
It's just saying "you are a man if you think and act like a man"/"you are a woman if you think and act like a woman"/"you are inbetween if you think and act like a man and a woman". That's BS, just cliches all over the place. Only ppl who fit in will feel good.
No one has to fit in anything.
Pls don't take it badly, i just what i think about this subject. I'm not trying to hurt you, just saying what i truly think. -
05-20-2021, 06:18 PMAmmokkxliteral victim blaming, my dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
Shouldn't have had to protect themselves to begin with. They shouldn't even need to take those steps. The fact they need to is a problem in and of itself. -
05-20-2021, 06:26 PMMilkieTeaId like to clear up a little bit of a misconception it seems youre having. Im not a man because I think or act like a man - in fact, I also played with barbies growing up. I loved dress up games, dressing up “like a girl”, putting on my step moms makeup, walking around in high heels. To this day, I love dresses, shoes, all things pink and considered “girly.” But I still grew up calling myself a boy when others called me a girl, because that was what my brain said (not what I THOUGHT, but what my brain was signalling to my body). The dressing up? That felt like a costume to me. It was, well, playing dress up. And it felt the same way when I went to school and everyone called me “she” and said I was a girl because I looked like a girl on the outside.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
Just like you playing with barbie dolls didnt make you grow up to be less of a man, neither did it make me. The only thing that it did was make others think of me as more feminine than I felt.
Transgender isnt changing to conform to societies expectations of what a man, or a woman, or a nonbinary person is. It’s fixing the mismatch from your OWN brain to your body. For some people, that IS conforming to societal expectations - dressing overly masculine and acting with bravado, puffing their chest out and screaming about trucks etc. For others its making small changes to how the people closest to them address them and interact with them. Take people like Blaire White, she fully transitioned sans bottom surgery. She feels comfortable without bottom surgery, because she reached a point where her brain wasnt screaming at her that her body wasn’t correct. It is DEFINITELY not societies expectation for a woman to have male genitals. But its as far as she needed to go to correct the mismatch.
I dont even like Blaire (I think she’s a grifting POS who panders to right wing idiots who cant be bothered to do a modicum of research before spouting off their insane ideas) but shes a perfect example of what I mean. -
05-20-2021, 06:28 PMJuzjuzzYes exactly. But you have to, learning how defend yourself is a good tool. I'm not saying other ppl are innocent (far from it), but you can't count on other to bring you hapiness all the time. Not everyone is nice sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammokkx
I have nothing against ppl changing their bodies tbh, it's just the pronoun thing that bugs me. I can't accept it. To me it's not here to be used for confort. Even if they don't like it, they don't have to. Societal expectations are not even here to make ppl feel good and it's useless sometimes. Who cares about what you do with your body, as long as you don't hurt anyone else ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkieTea
And to me your pronoun doesnt change if you change your body into something else (tbh i wont call you "she" if you are born as man, because i don't think calling you "she" just for being gentle is a good thing). You are born a man or a woman (unless you are intersex but then idk how it works for them), after that do wtf you want but don't bring me into it.
I just have a different approach about all this, it's a really a complex subject xD. -
05-20-2021, 08:32 PMHollyJollyPaca
What the hell did I start.....
I just thought it was an easy implementation (apparently it's not) that would appease a lot of people, both on the LGBT spectrum and those who just want gender specific attributes. -
05-20-2021, 08:58 PMMilkieTealifeprotip dont bring up LGBT anything on forums, the people who dont like LGBT folks will find any way to derail it using slippery slope arguments, bad faith, or devolve into “issa menthol iwwneth” as you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca
I dont know if it would be an easy implementation, neither do any of the people on here saying it would be hard. Its all assumptions, ahah. -
05-20-2021, 09:10 PMHalivelDepending on the type of realization it could be fairly simple, though we can't say for sure as the game is infamous for its "noodlecode" - something as mundane as a simple toggle may end up being a pain to implement.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca
That said... it's a common reaction for requesting inclusive options, sadly, especially when they have something to do with LGBT+. So it's not your fault, it's just how people on forums are. -
05-20-2021, 09:37 PMHaru304
I'd like to say I'm for this being implemented, in all honesty, but the enormous amount of challenges and flack I can see coming as a result of it would not be worth the time or investment. It would quite simply be, as others have pointed out, insanity. You know what your character's 'preferred' pronouns are. You're the creator of the character. No amount of in-game text can take that away from you. My WoL definitely does not have replies or expressions that match what his actual responses would be in the story and there's a lot of ways he wouldn't allow others to refer to him. Nothing about the game is restricting your creative liberty or diversity. When you choose a female model and NPCs refer to you as 'she/her', it's because you 'probably' are 'she/her' but that doesn't mean that you have to ascribe to that way of thinking yourself. Since the game isn't inherently designed with gender identity in mind, this is very much the case. It's not meant to be exclusionary or phobic. It's meant to appeal and be read by the broadest demographic of people. Is that inherently exclusionary to an extent? Yes but it's not targeted. Many countries and cultures do not even use gendered pronouns.
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05-20-2021, 09:40 PMDynnDiablos
No. It would take too long to rework all the dialogue and not worth the DEV time. People need to get over having pronouns in all aspects of life. And I say this as a member of the LGBT community and I do NOT put pronouns anywhere and that's my right not to. I didn't know it was a requirement.
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05-20-2021, 11:21 PMSotarisEither you’re naive or simply new to internet?Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca
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05-20-2021, 11:26 PMDarkDaifuku
I hope I can summon the hardcore ultimate raiders into here, they will tell you why this is unworthy of dev's time that is suppose to be used for working on more ultimate.
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05-21-2021, 12:25 AMAwhaYou mentioned pronouns over the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca
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05-21-2021, 12:32 AMAwhaIt is an assumption, but not a baseless one we do have access to the code itself, and the values they use for the dialogue when it comes to addressing a player character. That said you are correct in saying we do not know how exactly how taxing it would be, but from a logistics side when everything has to be balanced around time required not just effort or difficulty in terms of determining effective use of cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilkieTea
I would say pronouns are probably below even Egi Glamour at this point. -
05-21-2021, 12:47 AMPentheaHow do you know I could have avoided getting hurt? You don't know me, you don't know who was involved, you don't know where it happened and you were only given very vague details about what happened. Stop acting like you're some sort of an expert on a past event, 90% of which you don't know about, that you didn't even experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
You know what's wrong with you? My story contradicts your agenda and you don't like it. You have this idea in your head that pronoun use can only hurt you if you allow it.
This wasn't a "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" situation. I wish it was just name calling, but it wasn't only that and I'm not going to go into deep detail because it's futile. I don't think there's anything I can say to you to make you understand how difficult the situation was for me because for you to understand you would have to let go of the idea that pronouns can only hurt if you allow it. So instead you choose to say I failed myself by not being strong enough to keep yourself elevated. You are essentially telling a seven year old that it is partially her fault for getting upset when some boys followed her around to bully her just because she wasn't their idea of what a girl or a boy should be. You are saying it's a child's fault for feeling hurt when someone else was repeatedly doing things with the intention of causing pain.
Exactly this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammokkx
Lol I'm not supposed to take it badly when you try to say seven year old me was too weak for getting upset when a group of people bullied her by making her feel that her gender identity was fundamentally flawed? When all I did was use both boy and girl toys to entertain myself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Juzjuzz
Your words don't hurt me now because I know exactly how ridiculous you're being. But seven year old me would have been very upset to be told it's partially my fault for feeling hurt when I all I did to invite that behaviour was play with "mismatching" toys. And before you even try to say "it's your fault for making it clear that it hurt you" no one enjoys being surrounded by a large group of bullies having fun by making sure they feel wrong and unwelcome. I didn't even cry for the first few incidents but whatever facial expression I had made it obvious that I was not happy, and they took joy in that.
And I'm going to end this conversation with you here because you are frankly a complete waste of my time. Respond if you want to but I'm not going to see it. I'd rather clean my cat's litter box than engage in conversation with you. Have a good day. -
05-21-2021, 01:02 AMAwha
I have always been as my old man would say an effeminate person. Got picked on for it at great deal, even to the point where I got pants once at the public pool. Having my old man sit down and more or less victim blame me helped me adjust and push through to the point where it generally takes a great deal to offend me.
Victim blaming did help me adjust and taught me I have to take care of my own issues. Only person you can really ever truly count on is yourself. Sure it is nice when you have aid, but do not count on or expect the aid to come.
My old man pretty much did call everyone soft. Always liked to say people just need to run through the tape. -
05-21-2021, 01:20 AMSturmChurro
Yeah, and since I moved to this side of the US during my childhood, I experienced racism for the first time. I am from California and actually never experienced it prior, at least not as a child. I am part Spanish, and look it. I was picked on in school here for "not being American", to "Hop back over the border", and many MANY other insults. It was a culture shock, and yes, it still hurts to think about the abuse children can levy at eachother. The trick is to not let it get to you as an adult, and I actually haven't personally experienced since childhood anyway. Yes, I am aware this is the pronoun thread, but the same concept applies.
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05-21-2021, 01:51 AMJuzjuzz
You can't let a child think he's completly innocent when something bad happens, it's even worse as an adult. Even if he doesn't know, saying "it's not your fault you didn't know" is not pushing him to think by himself.
It's okay to fail, but always putting the blame on others is not a good thing. Even if you didn't do mutch wrong, sometimes you just have to look and you'll understand that you could have done something differently. You can't adjust and get stronger if you don't do that imo. Looking as my own mistakes was not always easy, i failed a lot. Even right now i think i could have done some things better.
And gender identity sucks, the more i think about it and the less i want to care. F*ck pronouns man xD -
05-21-2021, 02:23 AMYencat
What a nasty thread this seemingly well-intentioned request snowballed into.
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05-21-2021, 02:27 AMsquidmonarchyOn the plus side, it's allowed me to figure out how the "ignore" button works and given me the motivation to use it in a few cases. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yencat
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05-21-2021, 02:37 AMAwhaAye yeah when I came back to NY it was a trip. I was born in NY but my parents moved to Spain when I was a child to care for my mom's mother. I lived in a bubble I legit never even knew the concept of race or even thought about.Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmChurro
Yet when I came back to the states I started getting picked on for how I looked. Oddly enough in when I lived in Spain I never felt different due to how I looked yet looking extremely different from most, yet once I came to the states it is like a fog was lifted all of sudden my appearance mattered. I did not fit in with either side of my upbringing.
Oddly enough being a black blonde Hair blue eyed child was weird at the time.
Either way as Churro mentioned it sucks but you cannot let it bother you as an adult. It is done in the past and also as an adult I have not experienced such issues cause I do not let me get it me. Sure people may still poke fun but no point letting it live rent free. -
05-21-2021, 02:45 AMBlackwing_SoulWelcome to the Internet, get a helmet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yencat
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05-21-2021, 02:52 AMCendres*side stepping the entire thread*Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyJollyPaca
I think this would be a wonderful suggestion for the next FF Online. If implemented from the very beginning I think it would a very welcome option. To change the game now however would be a tall order, though that's something the localization team would know about best. -
05-21-2021, 02:52 AMYencatCan't, I'm a Viera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackwing_Soul
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05-21-2021, 02:54 AMPentheaI laughed at this way harder than I should have. And then I felt a bit sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yencat
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05-21-2021, 03:04 AMBlackwing_SoulHa, touché!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yencat
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05-21-2021, 03:20 AMKolsykolI mean everyone does have pronouns.Quote:
Originally Posted by DynnDiablos
If you're male and identify as a man then '' he '' is still your pronoun.
I think it makes sense in most cases to just let people choose between '' he/ she '' and maybe '' they '' if it's not ultra inconvenient.
Altho honestly even when it comes to '' they '' I am kinda already beginning to become a bit meh about it, I have a really hard time believing that some people don't identify at least a little bit stronger with one but fine.
I just see a lot of people who use that pronoun who VERY clearly presents one way it feels a bit ridiculous.
As soon as we step out of that tho and we get into '' Zie, Sie, Ey, Ve, '' etc I mean at that point sorry but just stop being obnoxious...
I really feel like that stuff also does severe harm to Trans people because it turns gender identity into a complete joke to most people.