How can they be irrelevant when they're a major point of the thread, that you yourself pointed out?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
If the same of everything should result in the same outcome - AKA clearing or failing, then this obviously impacts the actual changes in overall job design, something I am very much allowed to care about and is -very relevant to the thread at hand and need to be answered- because if you (Not -you-, but the hypothetical battle team designer you) don't take the time to answer them, well.
You end up where we are, but the positions just change.
Just because you don't consider them relevant, doesn't mean that they aren't.
5.08 Patch - DPS still not balanced.
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09-07-2019, 06:50 AMKabooa
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09-07-2019, 06:56 AMSaitoHikari
Once again, the very topic of the thread is concerning the state of class balance and to offer suggestions to the developers to address that. Not any other irrelevant hypothetical factors such as differences in gear or differences in mistakes. The moment those other factors are brought in, there becomes too many variables to make any accurate comparisons with. But I'm pretty sure you know this, and you knew exactly what you were doing by bringing those up.
And in the grand scheme of the class balance, and once again with every other factor remaining the same (otherwise direct comparisons cannot be made), we cannot absolutely say that skill level is the only major factor in clear rates anymore. Especially now that the topic concerns half of the DPS classes, rather than issues with two or three classes split across different roles as they were in the past. -
09-07-2019, 06:58 AMHyoMinParkNone of these questions are relevant to the point Saito brought up. But I’m sure you know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
If you had been on RDM over BLM, and if your team had performed exactly as they had in your clear (performing with the same mistakes: deaths, damage downs, rotational errors), you would not have cleared. If you had been a 55th percentile RDM, you would not have cleared. Currently, a 50th percentile BLM sits at 13,175 rDPS for E4S. A 50th percentile RDM sits over 1,000 rDPS below that at 12,073. Up that just a teeny bit for a 55th percentile.
The entire point of bringing this up is that some jobs and some compositions allow for things like multiple deaths, damage downs, and rotational errors; and others simply do not. Sure, better gear can also mitigate and provide wiggle room, but not as much as the job disparity we currently have can. -
09-07-2019, 07:02 AMVendalwindThere are literally 8 strawman questions posed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
And its increasingly idiotic/hypocritical of you kaboaa to even bring up such questions because ive literally heard you say before difficulty of class play is irrelevant to balancing.
Fact is blm is OP compared to the current balance of the game regardless of what tie ins you attempt to use.
Fact: BLM is op.
Please stop being arbitrarily obstinate and bringing up opinion and unmeasurable discrepencies such as:" are certain jobs more prone to mistakes?"
Answer your own damn irrelevant and unmeasurable questions.
The best metric we currently have to measure balance is undeniably log parse numbers. Stop spouting pointless opinionated nonsense. -
09-07-2019, 07:08 AMSaberMaxwellThe same group but with you as RDM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Nope. You being RDM would have made the healers keep the DRG alive through Force > Geo > Voice. It would have made the healer not get oneshotted by Earthen Fury, and it would have saved the tank from getting oneshotted by Force of the Land. You're so right.Quote:
If we had a different party comp, would we have made those mistakes?
Yes, but I don't have to re-learn an entirely new rotation (to the degree of learning an entirely new job) just because I geared up.Quote:
Does gear not also cover mistakes?
3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998Quote:
What's the arbitrary amount of mistakes a party should be allowed to recover from, regardless of composition or performance?
Yes.Quote:
Are certain jobs more prone to mistakes than others?
No, but the threshold between "death" and "wipe" diminishes the weaker a job is.Quote:
Are we to balance jobs around how many mistakes they should be able to make?
No.Quote:
Is a mistake only death?
Enough so that being a member of the big five or not doesn't make or break an enrage pull.Quote:
How much should each job be able to contribute in recovering from the mistake?
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09-07-2019, 07:08 AMVendalwindAnd if you want an actual discussion on those questions regarding difficulty of play, rotation, and movement with regards to mechanics: go start a new thread on that subject. Instead of trying to basically filibuster the actual conversation here about the numbers balance of the classes and the issues its causing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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09-07-2019, 07:09 AMwhiskeybravoI didn't say anything about 20% or 50% percentiles. I asked if whether that was before or after you inflated the disparity by 20-50%Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
"Nearly 2000" is an inflation of 20%. And 50% above the 1000 dps difference you see in lower percentiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Make sense now?
That's not what I said at all, actually. I asked if you are really going to claim that them being predominantly found in optimization kills has no bearing whatsoever on the statistics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
And I'm the strawman lol
The NIN calling the BLM opQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
:lulz: -
09-07-2019, 07:17 AMAikenDrumYou don't even have to argue about switching jobs there btw, just argument that if BLM potencies were on RDM level it'd be a wipe instead of clear is enough, leaving everything he's trying to argue even more irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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09-07-2019, 07:24 AMKatie_KittyDid we go back in time to stormblood or something? Has fflogs stopped showing rDPS thus causing people to assume trick attack and other raid buffs are more powerful than they actually are? Those are the only explanations I could think of for this response.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-07-2019, 07:28 AMSaberMaxwellNo, 1,700 is 85% of 2,000. That's an inflation of 15%. Stop inflating your numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Let's not even get into what "nearly" means, since that reduces the inflation even more depending on if the significant figure in question can be decided to be in the hundreds (it should, since the tens place and the ones place are both 0).
Bearing on the statistics how? Making a claim their dps is higher in general because they're played in better comps? rDPS accounts for that and BLM's rDPS actually suffers when it's in better comps because it gives nothing and only takes.Quote:
That's not what I said at all, actually. I asked if you are really going to claim that them being predominantly found in optimization kills has no bearing whatsoever on the statistics.
Says the Warrior. :lulz:Quote:
The NIN calling the BLM op
:lulz:
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09-07-2019, 07:31 AMForteNightshade... lets try this one more time. The lower percentages are irrelevant. I only mentioned specific percentages for example purposes. But since you're so adamant over semantics when someone else already addressed how idiotic this whole argument is. I'll quote from 95% on both E4S and E3S, respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Black Mage: 14,732
Red Mage, 13,175
Dancer: 12,869
Black Mage: 14,408
Red Mage, 12,882
Dancer: 12,772
Citing Black Mage as being nearly two thousand above the bottom is an accurate assessment.
Nice try, but you missed the point entirely. Speed killers cannot impact the statistical average drastically because:Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
1) They typically play whatever is optimal, thus it was long determined before they even started speed killing
2) People are still playing the weaker jobs at a competitive level. Some are even speed killing with them.
Bluntly stated, the mere idea speed killers playing the big three would result in such a massively one-sided lead in overall damage is such a laughable reach in logic, it borders on embarrassing you'd even suggest it. -
09-07-2019, 07:33 AMHyoMinParkQuote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
If you aren’t the strawman, why make unnecessary quips like this?Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-07-2019, 08:32 AMKabooaOn reflection - fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
I suppose they aren't to the issue of numbers, but they are to me. I want to know his answers. They help me understand his viewpoint better, which given the recent little exchange, I would like, because I don't know.
My own opinions on the matter are already in the forum somewhere. Probably in this thread as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
He brought up it up. I wanted more elaboration. I shouldn't need more than that to ask questions. Asking a question doesn't mean I believe whatever answer you're thinking I'm fishing for.
Chill.
Hah.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
That's fair. Thank you for humoring me. For the record, I don't really disagree with your answers, though they kind of lack the detail I wanted from them.
I'm a numbers person and I'm a details person. I like having both. I dislike having both in the "1000 more" variety.
It's weird because back in Stormblood, the argument is "You shouldn't be making mistakes, so if there are mistakes they don't matter in the grand scheme of things." when it pertained to jobs and their balance.
So when mistakes got brought up, I wanted more information. Why, did it suddenly matter if mistakes were compensated for in the kill? And if it does matter, to what extent should it matter?
And if the amount it matters should be the same, then this in turn means that design for the jobs has to drastically change not just on a numerical basis, because we've already been in a state of the game where the stuff that allowed "For mistakes" wasn't supposed to factor into the overall job balance.
Sorry for the delay. I'm trying to get another clear I ultimately don't deserve. -
09-07-2019, 08:34 AMwhiskeybravoWhy did you include DNC? You only mentioned RDM, DRG and BRD in your original comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
Shifting the goal posts? It's OK. But 1500+ would've been a more reasonable claim. 500 dps is a pretty significant number relative to the disparities that are present. Surely you could agree?
Weird, I'm not finding the word massive in any of my comments. For your points:Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
1) It should be obvious how early clear groups are able to gear up their dominant jobs faster than others.
2) If there are high skilled players gearing up dominant jobs faster than others, and purposefully seeking to establish such "dominance", this fact would not be impartial to any statistics being gathered, particularly early on.
Doesn't have to be massive, which is why I never alluded to it being such. Within the intricacies of the statistics however, it should at least be considered as having the possibility of influencing them. If we are dealing in the range of 10% disparity, even finding 1% becomes relatively meaningful.
It depends on the discussion. If the argument is that some DPS need to buffed because it's more difficult meet damage requirements with them compared to other jobs, then looking at the bare minimum damage requirements and it's statistics is absolutely relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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09-07-2019, 08:41 AMSaitoHikarigdiQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
No one is arguing that you don't deserve the clear, that's not this is about. The whole point of the exercise was just to bring up that in the current state of the balance, taking specific classes more than ever before has become a factor into tipping an enrage wipe into a clear and vice-versa. That's something people want corrected above all. -
09-07-2019, 08:55 AMKabooaIt's just a jab, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaitoHikari
I don't mean to sound heated, because I rather enjoy the discussion.
Speaking personally, I enjoy riding the line whenever I can, and if I can drag people over it with me, all the better. Even if its their corpse. -
09-07-2019, 11:32 AMHyoMinParkWhy include DNC in this comparison? Perhaps because DNC is at the bottom at the 95th percentile? Where you expecting a DPS not at the bottom to be named to make a comparison between the damage values of the bottom DPS versus the top DPS at the percentile quoted to you? That’s not shifting any goalpost. Your comment, however, is grasping at straws at the very best. And another strawman...that you keep saying you aren’t making.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
EDIT: Ah, I do see what you’re trying to grasp at—the comment about BLM being nearly 2,000 rDPS against RDM (which is true). That doesn’t change the fact, however, that DNC is lower than RDM, which makes it even lower than BLM. The difference between RDM and DNC at the 95th percentile for All Bosses is 177 rDPS, E3S is 110 rDPS, and E4S is 306 rDPS. If you’re going to cling to these rDPS values to attempt to discredit the argument, again: you’re grasping at some very thin straws. The issues is still the same: BLM is nearly 2,000 rDPS above RDM at the 95th percentile, and nearly 2,000 rDPS above DNC. -
09-07-2019, 11:47 AMForteNightshadeIf you've actually read my responses, I've mentioned the bottom five several times and only specifically mentioned those jobs to avoid repetition in my replies. At this point, you're arguing semantics because your actual argument has no grounds otherwise. It's getting rather sad when all you can rebuke is the difference between "1,500+" and "nearly 2,000"Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Nor did I imply you said it. Once again, I implore you to read my replies if you're going respond. What I said is your comment implied a contributing factor for the big three having such a dominant lead in overall damage was due to them being apart of speed kills. It's both a flawed and disingenuous presence because it's wholly reliant on the remaining jobs not being competitive. As that isn't the case, it has little relevant impact. In fact, we needs only look at the tanks to disprove this nonsense. Warrior is vastly underrepresented yet percentiles consistently show it being close enough to the remaining tanks that balance isn't an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
That isn't how balancing works because it gives an inaccurate assessment of the job's performance. How many times do I have to spell this out for you?Looking at percentages where people have serious rotational or mechanical issues will result in false conclusions such as the assumption Black Mage isn't dominating Red Mage because at say, 20% the gap is much smaller than 95%. Only the latter is relevant because it depicts two players at equal skill, playing the job at a high level where overcapping or dropping resources won't skew the results.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-07-2019, 10:59 PMwhiskeybravoNo, your comment that I had a problem with, which is what we've being going back and forth about, clearly claimed BLM was nearly 2000 above RDM. It's not. It's about 1500 by your own example.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
The problem is actually that you're clearly just not interested in playing fair. Otherwise you wouldn't have had to include dancer in order to justify your exaggeration of the disparity.
Just keep shifting those goal posts.
Please quote where I either said massive or dominant lead as a result. And if you can't then stop putting words in my comments or implying I said things I didn't. Just because you can't wrap your head around the concept doesn't mean you get to make stuff up. I know there is some word that's defined as "an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument." but I just can't think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
You don't have to spell anything out for me since I'm well aware of what the statistics represent. So let me spell something out for you since it's such an apparently a difficult concept:Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
After some number of weeks the percentiles begin to become gear locked. It doesn't matter how well you play if you can't get an orange until you get weapon, therefore percentiles to do not automatically represent a given level of "skill". After some point in time your item level and gear simply has a much larger influence on breaking through to higher percentiles. That is why gear acquisition must play a role in the spread of the statistics. If the more dominant jobs are gearing up faster, it pushes their higher percentiles to a further degree compared to jobs which aren't being played as much. By the very same token as people start gearing up more jobs and running them through, the higher percentiles get pushed further out of reach for those lacking the same gear. Even if the jobs are played at an identical skill level the higher percentile is out of reach until you get the gear. To further illustrate this point, we can compare the number of e4s logs between DRG (10,312) and NIN (2,399). This would certainly seem to indicate there are more geared DRGs out there than geared NINs, and so the overall average of the 95th percentile DRG would be higher than the overall average of 95th percentile NIN - because the 95th percentile NIN doesn't have as many players pushing it's average up. Another way of putting it would be NIN is further away from realizing it's full potential compared to DRG. It doesn't have to be a large degree for this to make sense, as I stated previously even 1% is relatively meaningful within the current operating margin.
I looked at the 25% percentile for reasons I expressed in a previous comment. Upon doing some quick math, indeed at the lowest percentile with which a group can clear (full group of 8x 25%'ers) the group with the combination of weakest jobs will be 500 short of e1s enrage, while a group with dominant jobs will clear with 2500 to spare. I didn't care to do the other turns since I'm sure it'll play out similarly, but that's a pretty big difference with several different things that can be inferred. For one it aligns with the claims being made in this thread that it's more difficult for certain comps to meet damage checks. Fair enough. But on the flip side, we are talking about 25% which means there's plenty of room for improvement. Therefore the claim that taking certain jobs is a detriment, while it has some merit, is really more of an obfuscation of the facts. The fact is you only need to be a little above 25th percentile (as a group) in order to clear e1s (at least) even with the worst composition of jobs.
The second point these particular statistics illuminate is the disparity between a group of upper and lower jobs, again in this situation -500 to +2500 around enrage. That's something that should be looked at, do the upper jobs need that big of an advantage or do the lower jobs need to be boosted by at least enough to clear in the same situation? I haven't made a claim one way or the other, everyone will have their own opinion. Personally I think they could meet in the middle a bit.
You're basically making up an argument that I never disputed. I simply wanted to know for myself what the minimum requirements looked like and it's relevant statistics. Never did I make a claim that balance should be focused on the lower percentiles, again that's something you made up on your own for argument's sake. Citing the lower percentiles for an example to back up a claim is not the same as basing a philosophy of balance around them.
And I'll go one step further. If you won't bother to look at the lower statistics relative to the argument that DPS needs to be adjusted because enrages, then you clearly aren't interested in that being a real issue. By focusing on the upper statistics of potential, you are focusing on the ego of a job instead of it's actual utility, because the upper statistics don't indicate any sort of relationship with "hitting enrage". It doesn't matter if you compare a 95th DNC to a 95th BLM, they're both killing it and in neither case is their contribution detrimental to the team in any sense whatsoever.
To hearken back to Lynn's comment with which I sort of disagree, we do need to provide feedback, but it needs to be reasonable feedback. There is no place for exaggerated claims and incomplete pictures. The actual situation calls for something in the range of ~5% one way or the other. There are slight issues with DPS checks, and there are slight issues among players who feel their efforts aren't proportionately accounted for. The latter having a worse impact on the community. They've already said they are addressing some issues, clearly it's ongoing effort and we know very well how they like to take their time. In the meantime, there's no actual issue in jobs clearing content, only hypothetical situations. Any group putting in the effort will get their kills if they haven't already. The main issue is perception which we as players have a huge role in shaping, possibly even more than the devs. -
09-08-2019, 05:03 PMAikenDrum
If anyone is wondering what are numbers for other floors:
E2S:
40% lowest jobs - 71360
20% top jobs - 71591
E3S:
50% lowest jobs - 72243
20% top jobs - 72082
E4S:
60% lowest jobs - 75281
30% top jobs - 75846
But hey, it's totally fine as long as lower jobs can improve to 40/50/60%, right? While 20/20/30% top jobs are already fine - look at them, stallions! :)
P.S. For the love of god, please, stop mention how all jobs can clear - if you don't understand how it's absolutely irrelevant to the balance between jobs i suggest you learn first what the term "balance" means... -
09-08-2019, 05:59 PMDogempireAssuming we go back in time to right before savage hit, when people had 450 Eden gear and Titania weapons/Innocence accessories, and gear is basically not a factor anymore, the dps rankings at 95th percentile were as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
BLM: 12,019
Monk: 11,631
Samurai: 11,390
Dragoon: 11,202
Machinist: 10,832
Summoner: 10,559
Bard: 10,475.35
RDM: 10,077
Ninja: 9,460
Dancer: 9,102
That's a difference of 2,917 between dancer and black mage, black mage literally does 32% more rdps than dancer. We have had some post savage updates to jobs, but unless I'm recalling wrong black mage and dancer have largely remained untouched, and even though savage content is way more movement demanding than extreme content so it should bring blm's damage potential down a bit, this just shows that even without the high hitting jobs being super padded with raid gear, there's a huge gap between top and bottom.
That being said, while a 95th percentile dancer and a 95th percentile blm are both conbributing well to a party's damage, it doesn't sit well with me that skill doesn't translate to high damage (relatively speaking) for a lot of jobs.
Edit: These numbers seem kind of low considering that going back to my own personal logs, 95th on Titania was 11k on dancer, and on Innocence 95th was 10.8k, but regardless, the numbers are probably lower on all the other jobs too, though I can't figure out what I did in the filtering options to make the numbers so low. My point still stands though on there still being a significant gap even when gear isn't an issue. -
09-08-2019, 08:09 PMForteNightshadeWhich is a pointless semantics argument since I said "nearly 2,000." In Voidwalker, for example, the difference between the two is 1,842. If you want to argue the veracity "1,500+" and "nearly 2,000." Be my guest, but I've wasted enough time on this nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
When you quote where I said you did. I cannot very well put words in your mouth if I don't actually claim you said them. What I actually said is your were implying speed killers influence the data to such an extent it would impact the accuracy of higher percentiles enough to at least partially explain the sizable gap between say, Black Mage and Red Mage. This... is nonsense. For one, it's entirely dependent on enough people speed killing, and secondly, that the the remaining non-meta jobs not having competitive logs. Neither which occurs. A Dancer or Red Mage wouldn't suddenly close the enormous gap between them and even Ninja—the current weakest "meta" job.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Perhaps you should stop trying to throw around fallacy accusations and argue what's being presented. You'll get further.
I am going to stop you on that first sentence. Even week 1, where everyone had i450 gear, the difference was staggeringly one-sided. You needs only look at Extreme Primals to see the jobs currently behind were also behind then. Furthermore, there were still enough people playing the weaker jobs to average out gear discrepancies. It remains a moot point regardless because we're long past gear having any significant influence on the higher percentages. Everyone in those brackets now are either BiS or close to it. As for the comparison between Dragoon and Ninja. You may almost have a point... if the Range role didn't exist. Bard is currently the third highest parsed job in Savage yet finds itself weak enough two Black Mages are statistically superior. The gap between them and the big three never shrank. In fact, it's actually grown despite this being week six. Bear in mind, Bard is the most represented in speed kills for the Range role. So it isn't as though they haven't been efficiently geared. Considering Ninja's damage back then had been comparable to the Casters (sans Black Mage) and Range, we could easily posit how significant the discrepancies were. Ninja is now something of an outliner because it's been buffed considerably with 5.08. That being said, the buff shows how absurd the gap between them and the remaining melee was.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Only if you ignore the context which spawned this whole argument. We aren't talking about simply clearing each fight but the overall advantages and disadvantages between each job. When a below average player can contribute equal or even superior overall damage by simply playing a "meta" job, it does make the remaining jobs a detriment to some extent. Bard, for example, cannot afford the same mistakes as Monk. This, in turn, makes it easier to clear with less skilled players the more you stack meta jobs—something FFXIV has been generally good about avoiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Dude, your arguments have been all over the place; ranging from accusations no one made (perfect parity), insisting lower percentages do have an impact on balance to outright nonsense such as "Why did SE refuse to create male Vierra? Because that's simply what they decided to do."Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Don't try and backpedal.
Sigh...Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Now you are conflating viability with balance. They are two different concepts and aim to achieve different things. The latter is what we're focusing on. And being able to clear each fight doesn't mean the jobs are balanced. If a Black Mage can afford several mistakes, be it rotationally or mechanically, that the Dancer cannot. Then Dancer can, indeed, be a detrimental job simply because it requires the person playing it to be that much better.
None of this has been exaggerated. In fact, I'll cite my own log from two weeks ago where I, on Dragoon, parsed 9% due to a death and being unable to raise for quite some time. Despite that, I only did 400 less rDPS than the Dancer who parsed 94%. And she had better gear than me. Furthermore, I re-direct you to my reply several pages ago and ask you cite a single piece of evidence where the dev team mentions, by name, Bard, Machinist, Dancer, Red Mage or Summoner, doing far too low damage. They have yet to say a word, which is why this has become so heated. People are concerned we'll have another Stormblood where they straight up ignored the overwhelming amount of feedback for Dark Knight and Machinist.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-08-2019, 11:05 PMwhiskeybravoHey look someone used lower percentiles to make a point, haven't you learned that's not relative to balance?Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenDrum
Sarcasm aside, you realize you example isn't that much different from my own, right? I already conceded that at any given percentile the upper jobs have a significant advantage. Thanks for looking at the extra turns, though. Although I'm not so sure of the integrity of your claim. For example I used the lowest jobs of an average comp build of 2 melee, 1 ranged and 1 physical - if you simply added up the bottom 4 irrespective of imitating a reasonable composition then the results would be more misleading than necessary. In e2s the bottom 4 dps are DNC, RDM, BRD and SMN. If you're running that comp you probably don't deserve to clear in the first place honestly.
The problem is that you can imply beyond original meaning. I simply choose to look at the statistics with a grain of salt. I mentioned the intricacies of the statistics about 15 times throughout my posts because there are an incalculable number of little things that make taking 1-2% off the spread one way or the other at least a reasonable starting spot. That doesn't mean the one or two things I mention make up my entire worldview. Either way, the conversation has been exhausted. I can't make my point any more clear and concise so if you haven't gotten them yet then you won't anytime soon, I guess. Peace.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
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09-08-2019, 11:16 PMCKNovelSorry if I did not understood what you meant but are you saying that if 4 DPS players are playing the jobs they love and those happens to be DNC, RDM, BRD and SMN, they don't deserve the clear because they love jobs that aren't in the DPS Pantheon?Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 12:11 AMAikenDrumWell this means that jobs aren't balanced, full stop. Whenever all jobs can or cannot clear, or what is the perception of those jobs is not relevant to balancing.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 12:23 AMwhiskeybravoNo. It means strategically building a team to clear content or else having enough skill/gear/desire to compensate for lack of such strategy. 8 people picking out of 17 jobs within 5 roles isn't exactly inflexibity. In cases where it does become inflexible you have choices, and the outcomes simply depend on the particular relationship of individuals in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Balance for balance's sake? It's nice poetry I suppose.Quote:
Originally Posted by AikenDrum
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09-09-2019, 01:03 AMCKNovelWait so if you don't have the skill/gear to pass savage Enrage, building a team with the most broken jobs is a "strategy"?Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Or does it means that players have to play better than average/bad players depending on their jobs?
Both logics are flawed, job choice shouldn't be a pass to clear. -
09-09-2019, 01:04 AMAikenDrumI'd prefer if "having significant advantage" wouldn't be a factor when deciding which job to play, silly me.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 02:27 AMKabooaYou cannot control others in a Pug.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
When you pug, you take the risk that someone in your team might have been the weaker link in regardless of the job they played.
Everyone forgets that while a 40th WHATEVER does the same damage as a 95th WHATEVER, the 95th is less likely to wipe you and you are more likely to clear with them.
Build a team of Greysiders using the most "broken jobs in the game" and I'll take my Purple People Eaters playing whatever they want any day of the week. -
09-09-2019, 02:47 AMHyperiusUltimaSounds a lot like the meta bandwagon in that regard. Aether’s Locked out BRD/DNC because their Damage and rDPS was too low. Generally, all jobs are viable provided you can play them at the respective skill level required while doing mechanics. However, as said before, if this advantage given to other jobs on the higher end isn’t dealt with, it’ll wind up with some jobs being dead in high-end content with the amount of combat jobs we have currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
To also cite a near-dead job, AST has it the worst since they have the highest APM out of all the Healers, and one of the more complex openers in the game for less DPS/rDPS. -
09-09-2019, 02:51 AMKabooaI really don't disagree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima
They do need adjustments up, and some need some baseline class adjustments on top of that (Red Mage, Summoner come to mind immediately), but I'm really just kicking against this perception issue, because it's the hyperbole that you "Can't do it with these jobs" that leads to lock outs, not being "weaker". -
09-09-2019, 02:54 AMKatie_KittyUhh yeah I think it's about time we end this charade. This man is not rational enough to have a discussion on job balance with. Bye.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 02:59 AMAikenDrumI though it was established on last page that >60 of whatever can clear content, and yes, 95 is indeed > 60, you are correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Wait how is this relevant again? -
09-09-2019, 03:49 AMHyperiusUltimaI've been against this issue since way back in HW when I used to main WHM, when DPS Meta was coming into fruition because of Gordias. Still, balance hasn't been this bad since 3.4, considering that was the worst time for Casters. It feels like we're just reversing roles now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
If change is to be had, we would need to look at each job and determine where the problems lie(in the current case, it's MNK and DRG being overtuned for what they provide as well as adjusting the DPS ofo both DNC, RDM, and SMN to be competitive). What we do want to avoid is power creep, because once that happens(kinda like how it is currently with MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM being meta for high-end) everything goes to shit. -
09-09-2019, 07:28 AMwhiskeybravoBecause I used a rational static composition for my example, instead of cherry picking the data to support a hypothetical claim? OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
Don't pick a group of three and a half "support" DPS and whine that you're hitting enrage, as you do so knowingly. Seems like a pretty simple concept to understand. /shrug
Are we now claiming that because people are dumb and can't read a guide or ask questions, or heaven forbid think for themselves, SE needs to balance jobs so they can pick whatever they want without any consequence? -
09-09-2019, 07:40 AMKatie_Kittyuhhh.. yeah??? I mean that's kind of common senseQuote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 08:13 AMCrushnightgoing to use 95th percentile for Titan(E4S):Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
A team using Blm/Mnk/Drg/Sam, 14763/14611/14347/14354 - DPS total = 58,075
B team using Smn/Rdm/Brd/Dnc, 13279/13182/13087/12883 - DPS total = 52,431
Difference in Dps = 5,644
That is alarmingly different to a point where the top 4 DPS are outputting more than a 9th person playing an AST at 50th percentile level, That is too high a difference and does need to be corrected because that shouldn't be allowed to be that high. at most the top 4 DPS combined should be no higher than 1k DPS ahead of the combined 4 lowest DPS right now any one playing the lower DPS jobs are truly hurting their team through no fault of their own this should be corrected fast. -
09-09-2019, 08:14 AMDogempireSo you finally show your face at last... forum troll!Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
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09-09-2019, 08:36 AMwhiskeybravoFair enough, it was poorly worded on my part. And I should've framed my original comment as "we can discuss whether that comp should be able to clear", which would've separated it as another thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
The only problem with pointing that out (along with the other comments posted above), however, is that it only gets us so far. Why isn't DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM a particularly strong comp? It's all terribly complicated and somebody eventually has discuss & decide what happens to what and how every job gets balanced to one another, preferably within the confines of the current content parameters.
Since I don't think I've actually stated my philosophy on balance, here it is. Loosely speaking, either the top ABC or bottom XYZ need to be nerfed or buffed, respectively, as it would help not diminish the "intended" difficulty of the content. It shouldn't just be about "free" buffs. It shouldn't be about compensating for mistakes. It would probably hurt less if both sides gave a little in order to meet somewhere in the middle, if the spread is 10% then meet at +/- 5%. Allow 1-2% tolerance. Be humble. Be happy. -
09-09-2019, 09:04 AMKatie_KittyI would say it's extremely simple. If you look at the numbers, you will notice right away that there's a large rDPS gap between jobs like BLM, MNK, DRG and SMN, MCH, RDM, BRD, DNC, with SAM and NIN (since 5.08 buffs) probably somewhere in between the two tiers. That gap in rDPS between the jobs is the reason why DNC, BRD, SMN, RDM is a weak comp. You fix it by reducing the size of that gap.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo
Square needs to decide whether BLM, DRG, MNK are too strong or if the others are too weak, or a mix of both. If the big three are too strong then you reduce BLM's personal DPS, and either reduce DRG/MNK's personal DPS or nerf the amount of raid buffs they bring to the table, or both. If the others are too weak, then you either buff SMN, MCH, RDM, BRD, DNC's personal DPS or the amount of raid buffs they bring to the table, or both. If it's a mix of the two then you buff and nerf jobs accordingly in order to bring them together.
Personally, as someone who plays RDM in savage content, my experience playing a weak job in pugs has led me to believe that the weak jobs need to be lifted up rather than the strong ones bring brought down.