Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

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Isn't what she's telling in this cutscene utter bollocks (for the most part) though if we look at what we learned in ShB ?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

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I feel like the "more power" she's talking about is the lives of all those that succeeded the then-current population in order to bring back what was lost. It's the harmony bit that's questionable, unless her personality/perspective was built off of #14.

Ten characters

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Isn't what she's telling in this cutscene utter bollocks (for the most part) though if we look at what we learned in ShB ?

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To be fair my position is team #neitherprimal

From her perspective she could feel she's telling the truth, due to the nature of not being "Self aware" but she's part of the lifestream/aether as the will of the planet yes? It also could be part of retconning by the writers....so there is that too.


Are the Ascians a threat? Yes. It's their existence vs the current one.

However, I think the narrative of keeping the current status quo is a bit sketchy, and not without its own bias. As I stated, it's interesting how people in various threads are looking for ways to call Emet things like delusional "hey look their society isn't that great" when we are still riddled with the same problems that is hypocrisy at its finest. Our race lore discriminates with those different from us, and also frowns upon standards of non conformity to various degrees too.

I also am wondering about Urianger's moments of poisoning the well statements iirc was it him that said "What if we were already tempered?" and "What if we were fighting for the wrong side" when looking at the element chart? The musical cues were there, saying hey something's not right.

While again not sure if our past self left due to Zodiark to summon Hydaelyn still remains to be seen because there was definitely more than one person who sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn.

It's feasible that the 14th who left thought both sides were doing to much and was looking for a 3rd way prior to the sundering.

It's just that I get that Hydaelyn is helpful to new life, she sundered the planet and got quite a following. But there's also the saying you attract more flies with honey. :P

That said it's also possible since Zenos is likely being set up as the big bad and native PrimalHacker. The one primal that exists on this plane even though not exactly "accessible" is Hydaelyn. with things kicking up to be real turmoil n the future, we're in for quite a ride

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5.0 will explore the roots of the FFXIV story. Most players who follow the story, probably already suspected that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals, so he didn't mind revealing that minor info. Why? Because there are tons of more surprises with a bigger impact. The dev team actually asked Yoshi-p if it was really okay to reveal the final "primal" secret and he said it was okay because that proves that the story is going to be that huge.

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Also this quote

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[b]After half way through 5.x, the story will unfold like a turmoil up to the end.

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Potential world of ruin? (that may be far fetched but hey)

Sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...w_with_yoship/
https://game.watch.impress.co.jp/doc...w/1189186.html

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I feel like the "more power" she's talking about is the lives of all those that succeeded the then-current population in order to bring back what was lost. It's the harmony bit that's questionable, unless her personality/perspective was built off of #14.

Ten characters

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However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power line is interesting.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...



However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power is rather ironic

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More rambling

But those that sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn would be doing so to prevent future generations from being sacrificed to Zodiark in order to restore and maintain the past. It's ironic and taints Hydaelyn's perception I'm sure, but I'd consider it a much nobler sacrifice. Those that were willing did so in order to protect future innocents, and more importantly to allow a future to exist. The most ironic part of the whole thing is that the Light-aspected primal was summoned to allow change, and the Dark-aspected primal was summoned to preserve stasis.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

So apparently, doing all 4 roles quest drops a pretty big reveal in a 5th quest, about the mysterious 5th member that you can see sometimes in the other cutscenes.

This thread shares the detail if any are curious.

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If someone wants to see the quest I've uploaded it yesterday lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPnpVEIApqI

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Originally Posted by Daralii

More rambling

But those that sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn would be doing so to prevent future generations from being sacrificed to Zodiark in order to restore and maintain the past. It's ironic and taints Hydaelyn's perception I'm sure, but I'd consider it a much nobler sacrifice. Those that were willing did so in order to protect future innocents, and more importantly to allow a future to exist. The most ironic part of the whole thing is that the Light-aspected primal was summoned to allow change, and the Dark-aspected primal was summoned to preserve stasis.

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Hmm only agreed by "interpretation"

However

By statement she was more talking about how to seal him, not how to continue life. Or how this life model is "Better" or the changes it caused.

Granted again this is by way of unfolding the plot - likely not to give away too much about origins.

I don't know about Hydaelyn being the nobler sacfrifice. I think the fact they summoned a primal in the first place to save the planet or do you think it should have died right off?

I'm just saying a road to hell was always paved with good intentions.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

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About your post:

Yes Hydealyn was not truthful to us about that part but that does not take away the good things she has done before. In a way you can say that her words a partially true too with a certain view on this. If Zodiark had not needed more sacrifices that would include the future generation and thus had the Ascians not wanting the old ones back, then Hydealyn would not have been created. So she was forced to split him because he needed more power and to protect her people/children, which would be the future generation. Its just that she did not tell us that he came before her. But in the end its still a fact that part of the remaining Ancient ones did that and thus there was probably a quite good reason for her summoning.

Of course she is going to tell us to kill the Ascians, because as we found out, we simply have no common ground. She is there on the wish to protect the future generation, so why should she not say that we should kill them? Their existence simply should not be allowed if they dont change their way. We also have learned that a flood of light (or at least too much light) was the intended result for the Ascians for this shard. The death of that Ascian there might have thrown out the balance a bit too fast but in the end even without that, they would have created a calamity of light through other means. (Remember that the WoD of the first just simply did their job too well, thus the shard was forced more and more into stagnation/order which is kinda what Light is. We also just killed another one of the big bad Ascians and the source is fine. With the new information we got about the workings of Light and Darkness, of Hydealyn and Zodiark, we (imo) cant even say if such a imbalance would truly happen.

About Acient ones being conforming: The arguments in other threads that others and even I made was that these quests showed that they are far away from the perfect people that Emet made them out to be and that Amaurot may have not been the perfect heaven either. Its simple: If you dont conform they will keep an eye on you and it really has an even more sinister tone in the english version of that quest. And these points are there to show that no, they might have had more power (but as soon as creatures came they become overrun by fear...)but they are not that different to us. Thats kinda fits exactly into your point. Our own races are not perfect, they have their negative sides, but Emet believed that their lifes were much better than our imperfect ones..completely ignoring that they were not perfect either. ;)[

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...



However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power line is interesting.

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About the needed sacrifice:

The problem is, that this seemingly was the only group necessary to summon and sustain her. (At least as far as we know right now) While Zodiark required 50% of the remaining living Ancient ones and then another 50% to heal the planet. I am quite sure if the sacrifices had stopped there, then Hydealyn would not have been summoned for that reason. But the Ascian (seemingly tempered by him) wanted the old ones back, even though those sacrificed themselves to save the remaining ones and the future ones..stepping on their wishes too..and would have sacrificed the whole new born lifes to get them back. So a couple of the last remaining 25% of that old race decided that this was enough and sacrificed themselves. This is the big difference here. Taking your own life to save countless others or cultivating the new generation only to harvest their souls without their consent in the hope of getting their old ones back.

Yeah at this point tho we are recycling arguments done a couple pages ago.

It's okay she wasn't forthcoming cuz she was nice!

I mean I'm pointing out the basic problems with the arguments is that everyone picking a side is going spindoctor it to his/her viewpoint and people will look a flaws of the other side to spin doctor it to why other side is bad

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yeah at this point tho we are recycling arguments done a couple pages ago.

It's okay she wasn't forthcoming cuz she was nice!

I mean I'm pointing out the basic problems with the arguments is that everyone picking a side is going spindoctor it to his/her viewpoint and people will look a flaws of the other side to spin doctor it to why other side is bad

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10 characters

Let's take out the fourth wall for a second: Hydaelyn wasn't more forthcoming because the loremasters didn't want her to be. If she told us everything back in 3.4, 3.2, or even 2.0, it would have possibly been seen as an exposition dump and they would be out a significant amount of story shock for the future, not to mention that it's possible this twist wasn't even storyboarded back then either. The last time we spoke to Hydaelyn directly, iirc, was about four years ago irl in 3.4. It's worth keeping in mind concerning the "How dare Hydaelyn not reveal the tapestry of the universe to me the last time we spoke!" talk.

In universe, you're right, we are hearing conflicting stories from biased sources. We haven't even directly heard from Zodiark yet, either. It feels disingenuous to say that "Hydaelyn was just nice to us the one time" when she nearly expended her entirety of her strength (which would be antithetical to any power grab strategies, mind you) to protect us from getting dusted by Ultima Weapon.

I don't know if you are reading the thread but I said as much to the first point multiple times.

However, I didn't just say "one time" I'm saying it's in her best interests to be nice when she literally basically tasked you to it, and not simply every echo user.

Hydaelyn reached beyond the boundaries of the game and Tempered a number of posters who flock to this board to forever argue in her favour, I reckon. ;)

On the point of Hydaelyn -

Her entire reason for being, her raison d'etre, is protecting the races of man from being sacrificed to Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed Ascians. She literally exists for that one reason. Hydaelyn does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future; she exists to make sure humanity has a future and, far as I can tell, is hands-off letting people do their own thing and only intervenes when her prime directive necessitates it.

Given she was created using the same Ascian creation magicks that create primals, has anyone considered she was created with imperfect knowledge of the situation? Primals are whatever their summoners want them to be, and if her creators didn't include that information, she wouldn't know it...

Regardless, even if Hydaelyn deliberately and knowingly lied about her conflict with Zodiark, that doesn't change the fact the Ascians have every intention of destroying all the shards via Rejoining and then sacrificing the entirety of mortal life to Zodiark to resurrect the dead Amaroutians. We'd need to oppose the Ascians anyway, and as Hydaelyn hasn't shown any sort of ill will toward the Warrior of Light or mortals in general, I don't see what the issue is.

Hydaelyn's entire reason for being is protecting the races of man from becoming fuel for Zodiark's resurrection of the dead Ancients. I don't understand why people are so insistent on pushing some kind of narrative that paints her as evil or malign.

(For the record Zodiark doesn't sound like he's evil either - just a wish machine created by the Ascians, for lack of a better term, but he still requires equivalent exchange. It's the Ascians' inability to let go of their glorious, dead civilization that's the issue at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

On the point of Hydaelyn -

Her entire reason for being, her raison d'etre, is protecting the races of man from being sacrificed to Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed Ascians. She literally exists for that one reason. Hydaelyn does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future; she exists to make sure humanity has a future and, far as I can tell, is hands-off letting people do their own thing and only intervenes when her prime directive necessitates it.

Given she was created using the same Ascian creation magicks that create primals, has anyone considered she was created with imperfect knowledge of the situation? Primals are whatever their summoners want them to be, and if her creators didn't include that information, she wouldn't know it...

Regardless, even if Hydaelyn deliberately and knowingly lied about her conflict with Zodiark, that doesn't change the fact the Ascians have every intention of destroying all the shards via Rejoining and then sacrificing the entirety of mortal life to Zodiark to resurrect the dead Amaroutians. We'd need to oppose the Ascians anyway, and as Hydaelyn hasn't shown any sort of ill will toward the Warrior of Light or mortals in general, I don't see what the issue is.

Hydaelyn's entire reason for being is protecting the races of man from becoming fuel for Zodiark's resurrection of the dead Ancients. I don't understand why people are so insistent on pushing some kind of narrative that paints her as evil or malign.

(For the record Zodiark doesn't sound like he's evil either - just a wish machine created by the Ascians, for lack of a better term, but he still requires equivalent exchange. It's the Ascians' inability to let go of their glorious, dead civilization that's the issue at the end of the day.

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To the last point

With our current information it seems that, at worst, Zodiark isn't evil in and of itself, but the goal of those who created it ultimately forces it into being an antagonist for anyone who isn't an Ascian simply because they aren't going to just lie down and die that easily.

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

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Well i am still on the Theory that WoL's original Soul is not the 14th member but was a Neutral Path person (Think Shin Megami Tensei series) and wanted to find a better solution that does not end up with the world depending on these two Gods which will cost countless lives to create and maintain.

If we think this in a Shin Megami Tensei Series perspective we have Zodiark representing the Chaos Path faction and Hydaelyn representing the Law Path Faction. Of course Neutral Path is often the best outcome (and often True Ending path for SMT series) but it is a path where the people of the world learn to find peace between all races and not depend on Gods nor absolute Strength to determine their future.

However, in doing so the WoL's Original Soul may have lost his or her life before the solution that did not require a God to save the world was found because one of the factions (either someone who worshipped Zodiark or maybe the 14th member who supported Hydaelyn) prevent or killed WoL's Original Soul due to the "Neutral path" being a threat to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn's existence.

This would also mean going Neutral path may end up fighting the very being/source that caused Original Calamity.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Well i am still on the Theory that WoL's original Soul is not the 14th member but was a Neutral Path person (Think Shin Megami Tensei series) and wanted to find a better solution that does not end up with the world depending on these two Gods which will cost countless lives to create and maintain.

If we think this in a Shin Megami Tensei Series perspective we have Zodiark representing the Chaos Path faction and Hydaelyn representing the Law Path Faction. Of course Neutral Path is often the best outcome (and often True Ending path for SMT series) but it is a path where the people of the world learn to find peace between all races and not depend on Gods nor absolute Strength to determine their future.

However, in doing so the WoL's Original Soul may have lost his or her life before the solution that did not require a God to save the world was found because one of the factions (either someone who worshipped Zodiark or maybe the 14th member who supported Hydaelyn) prevent or killed WoL's Original Soul due to the "Neutral path" being a threat to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn's existence.

This would also mean going Neutral path may end up fighting the very being/source that caused Original Calamity.

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One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

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I agree that the ideal outcome is man's future in man's own hands(#VarisWasRight), but I don't see how reaching that point is possible without relying on Hydaelyn's Blessing for the time being.

An unbroken Ascian still lives, which means new Ascians can be awakened and uplifted. Unless Elidibus surrenders for some reason, the WoL needs to be capable of standing toe-to-toe with him.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I agree that the ideal outcome is man's future in man's own hands(#VarisWasRight), but I don't see how reaching that point is possible without relying on Hydaelyn's Blessing for the time being.

An unbroken Ascian still lives, which means new Ascians can be awakened and uplifted. Unless Elidibus surrenders for some reason, the WoL needs to be capable of standing toe-to-toe with him.

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There is another solution :

If the WoL is able, one way or another, to recover all the shard of his soul, he could be able to oppose Elidibus without the help of anyone.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Hydaelyn reached beyond the boundaries of the game and Tempered a number of posters who flock to this board to forever argue in her favour, I reckon. ;)

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So since the game is not at a point where Hydealyn is shown to be truly evil and the only thing against her is that she did not tell the whole truth once (even though we dont even know if she might not know better herself) we are tempered to her? Why should we not be allowed to argue for her? Because other posters want her to be evil? It could be that we are wrong, but not everything in this very story does turn out to be completely different either.

In the end she was created as an enemy against Zodiark who was a danger for the future generation. That means she was created for the purpose of protecting us all from him (including his tempered Ascians). But of course she is evil and needs to be killed because her view on this was not completely true!

And lets not forget that they are created by people with way different power levels. Even Zodiark seemingly only needed sacrifice for really huge (and nearly impossible) feats. They are not like our primals that fractured souls create, so we dont even know if they function the same. And if they dont take aether in times of peace then why should she be destroyed?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

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The thing is that the Ascians were ready to sacrifice their own people. This future generation were still just Ancient ones being born. Yet in their view somehow these people had less right to live than those that willingly(!) sacrificed their lifes so that their race can live on. They go against the will of their own people.

This is not were the recent spoken races came to the planet, summoned Hydealyn and thus destroyed the ancient race and split the world. It was their own race that did this to protect their children. Its like if someone finds a way in real life to bring back his long gone anchestors but to do that they will have to kill all the children that live right now. Would you not see that as bad? Its in a way understandable that loss can hurt but that gives them no right to sacrifice people of their own kind to get some back..

Hydealyn as far as we know was only summoned with the sacrifice of those willing to do that. And she was there to protect the future thus all the children. So sorry to say, for me that makes one side morally much better than the other. You can believe that they are both on the same level but to me there is a huge difference between having to split people up to give them a chance to live while sacrificing only oneself, or killing all those future generations forever to get people back that gave up their life on free will too..

Just a sort of shower thought.

So if Ascians are tempered, but coherent, "Blessed with Darkness" are we also tempered, but conscious of our actions? Wouldn't our blessing be what tempers us, and prevents temperament from other primals ("SHE HAS TOUCHED YOU."-Garuda)

Finally, if all of those are a yes, shouldn't that mean that Middy knew how to absorb the aetheric influence of the temperament, negating the blessing, making it possible to reverse tempering after all? Or do we just hand waive it and say that he has a connection with Hydalyn and only weakened it.

Middy holding out on a bunch of poor souls if so.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

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That currently primals can be possesed and even strengthed in their capture does make it convincing that leaving any of them in the mothercrystal is a poor choice. We can only guess Zodiark is on the moon, but aren’t there already attempts made by people to contact Hydaelyn? I wouldn’t put it beyond Zenos to try hacking the planet.

Diving into the Hydaelyn matter

Regardless of whether you feel that her purpose and actions are good or evil or even neither, or whether she's been disingenuous or not, the overriding concern regarding her existence (and Zodiark's) still seems to be the issue that surrounds the presence of all primals in the material realm: the aether needed to sustain them. While I don't recall that we've gleaned any specific information over the amount needed to maintain a being on that scale, short of mass sacrifice, there are clues that suggest the cost either can be or is being paid in other ways.

The "aetheric thinning" on the Source is suggested by Urianger and the Exarch to correlate with the incoming flow of Light from the First, a shard where Hydaelyn's influence (whether she willed it or no) came to reign supreme. If we take the First's understanding of how Light and Darkness work as fact, this is in line with Light's—and consequently, Hydaelyn's—nature as a force of stasis. Even without intervening directly, her mere presence requires balance in the same way that Zodiark's does, as the elements, much like all of nature, work to achieve a state of equilibrium with each other barring outside influence.

Even if Hydaelyn's existence doesn't require the same proportional sacrifice that Zodiark's does to sustain, her cost may have already been "paid" through the Sundering. She and her Light are said to "enervate" by Elidibus and Emet-Selch, to divide the whole of Creation and, most importantly to the Ascians, make existence finite. Rather than an "recurring payment" to maintain a being at full power, like what's happening with Zodiark, it feels possible that a "full payment" was made in the summoning of Hydaelyn, since the original intent behind her summoning was merely to counter Zodiark, not continue what he was doing or expand upon it. She only had to be more powerful than him once to achieve her intended goal. It would help explain why she becomes progressively weaker and unable to act as decisively on her own behalf as he and his Ascians have, and why the Source's aether hasn't completely bent under the strain of supporting her, ostensibly "un-Sundered" as she is, while Zodiark's return portends a fundamental realignment of the order of things as we know it. If the circumstances surrounding their creation were really equal, wouldn't they too equalize each other at full strength?

I admit I'm not as well versed in the comprehensive understanding and speculation behind this issue, something I need an in-game refresher and a look through previous discussions about, but seeing it come to the fore in both, just a few thoughts that occurred in the wake of the main story.

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Originally Posted by Cont13

Diving into the Hydaelyn matter

Regardless of whether you feel that her purpose and actions are good or evil or even neither, or whether she's been disingenuous or not, the overriding concern regarding her existence (and Zodiark's) still seems to be the issue that surrounds the presence of all primals in the material realm: the aether needed to sustain them. While I don't recall that we've gleaned any specific information over the amount needed to maintain a being on that scale, short of mass sacrifice, there are clues that suggest the cost either can be or is being paid in other ways.

The "aetheric thinning" on the Source is suggested by Urianger and the Exarch to correlate with the incoming flow of Light from the First, a shard where Hydaelyn's influence (whether she willed it or no) came to reign supreme. If we take the First's understanding of how Light and Darkness work as fact, this is in line with Light's—and consequently, Hydaelyn's—nature as a force of stasis. Even without intervening directly, her mere presence requires balance in the same way that Zodiark's does, as the elements, much like all of nature, work to achieve a state of equilibrium with each other barring outside influence.

Even if Hydaelyn's existence doesn't require the same proportional sacrifice that Zodiark's does to sustain, her cost may have already been "paid" through the Sundering. She and her Light are said to "enervate" by Elidibus and Emet-Selch, to divide the whole of Creation and, most importantly to the Ascians, make existence finite. Rather than an "recurring payment" to maintain a being at full power, like what's happening with Zodiark, it feels possible that a "full payment" was made in the summoning of Hydaelyn, since the original intent behind her summoning was merely to counter Zodiark, not continue what he was doing or expand upon it. She only had to be more powerful than him once to achieve her intended goal. It would help explain why she becomes progressively weaker and unable to act as decisively on her own behalf as he and his Ascians have, and why the Source's aether hasn't completely bent under the strain of supporting her, ostensibly "un-Sundered" as she is, while Zodiark's return portends a fundamental realignment of the order of things as we know it. If the circumstances surrounding their creation were really equal, wouldn't they too equalize each other at full strength?

I admit I'm not as well versed in the comprehensive understanding and speculation behind this issue, something I need an in-game refresher and a look through previous discussions about, but seeing it come to the fore in both, just a few thoughts that occurred in the wake of the main story.

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Well actually reflecting upon your statement - I was watching videos reviewing the elemental chart... and lore

It actually WOULD cover why her statements seem disingenuous. If it's framed in the context of her actual directive. Keep Zodiark at bay. It also goes back to why the Ascians were also more willing to talk about Balance ( ...and also WHY Elidibus is one of the white robed Ascians. It's entirely possible he was part of the group that actually supported the summoning of Hydaelyn. (look at the cave paintings - you had dark robed and white robed). Of course the problem with this is he should be already tempered by Zodiark? The only things I could guess is that he is tempered and I am not sure if that would prevent one from (not summoning himself since it would mean sacrifice) supporting another summon. That of course would be a future plot revealed to us, since it was always odd he was one of the ones NOT wearing a dark robe.

Regardless of Emet's actions or not, it was pretty apparent that the imbalance of light and dark on each of the shards would tip the favor of her WoL that she sent out to defeat the darkness. Her goal was the same to each of them.

Hydelyn is EEEVVVILLL!!! According to some people who won't look at basic thematic readings.

I'm really not under the impression that Hydelyn is evil. I mean, the story could definitely go in that direction, but right now the evidence is shaky at best and doesn't really make any sense thematically. Like, basically on any of the points. I'm splitting up the points below into ideas based on what I've seen, although I'll be using somewhat comical titles.

THEMES YA DORKS!!!
Okay, the is one is pretty simple. If you look at the thematic ideas mainly present in Shadowbringers (so far the most thematically cohesive expansion) then it's pretty clear that Hydelyn isn't the 'bad guy', she's the 'good guy'. The main themes in Shadowbringers are Legacy, Impermanence, and the need for the old to die and new life to be protected and secured. This is a repeated theme throughout the expansion (I'm planning on doing a BIG write up when I get time). The heroes remember the past to push forward its legacy, but agree to protect new life rather than hamfistedly protect the old. Thancred must let the old (Minfilia) die to let the new (Ryne) grow in its place. Y'Shtola willingly sacrifices her life to try and protect the seeds of the culture she's grown. Urianger confronts the ruins of Voeburt, but holds nothing against the new Fey civilization that lives there. By contrast, the villains attempt to sacrifice or kill new life to unnaturally make the present eternal or bring back the past. Vauthry sacrifices the lives of his subjects to make an eternal empire. Emet-Selch is trying to kill the new (The source/Shards) to resurrect Old Amaouritine. Ran'Jit wants to sacrifice Ryne's autonomy to preserve the idea of her as a perfect daughter. So the protagonists (who the writers expect us to agree with) want to let new life live and move on while the Antagonists attempt to pervert the cycle of life.

Which side of that is Zodark, the guy who wants to eat an entire planet's life to ressurrect souls, on?

Which side of that is Hydelyn, who doesn't want that to happen, on?

BUT ALL GODS MUST DIE!!!
I think that this is a bit of the common 'internet atheism' linking in to be honest. People want this to become a 'kill all the gods' storyline since those are popular. I don't think that the game leans in that particular direction since there are many good religious characters, and characters attempting to destroy religion and faith (most notably the Garlean Empire) are consistently presented as evil for it. Our heroes constantly gain aid from supernatural beings (Hydelyn, Hraesvelgr, Midgardsomr, the Four Lords) and aren't presented as weak for it. The only character who screams about freeing humanity from the supernatural is Varis, who is VERY CLEARLY A VILLAIN. There are plenty of games and stories with this idea as a major theme, but FFXIV ain't one of them.

That being said, with the theme of Legacy being so prevalent in this expansion, of putting your wishes forward and entrusting the next generation with them, I could totally see Hydelyn dying at some point in the future. Maybe she has to die so that we can beat Zodiark, or maybe something else happens. However, it'll likely be played for tragedy and drama rather than celebrated.

BUT TYRANT!!!
There's this very strange idea of Hydelyn as an evil tyrant out in the #TeamZodiark crowd. I uh, never understood this? Like at all. What has she ever done other than oppose Ascian interference? It's not like she rules the World as a God-Queen, most people aren't even aware of her existence. She rallies Warriors of Light, but only really defensively and reactively. There is the somewhat juicy idea that she has tempered our main characters, but there's not anything to imply that we don't have control of our actions. People like the idea of Hydelyn as some evil light tyrant since it's a popular concept in various media, but there's just nothing for it in this game.

BUT LIGHT AND THE FIRST!!!
First off, Hydelyn doesn't appear to be in any way responsible for the imbalance/flood on the First. There's no evidence of it, and the fact that people imply it just because she's the 'Light' entity is a little annoying. If she was they would have implied it somewhere. Hydelyn did the EXACT OPPOSITE and saved the first, even sacrificing her Oracle to do so.

BUT LIES!!!
That was written four years ago. I wouldn't be shocked if they hadn't even decided what the Asians actually were back then. It's not really good evidence of anything, especially when Emet-Selch admitted that she has her own side of the story. Next time we talk to Hydelyn we'll probably hear something more accurate and they'll make a lampshade as to her 'lies' earlier.

BUT MUH SIN MEGAMI TENSEI!!!
This is a bizarre repeated thing I've seen on this forum. Using SMT as some sort of evidence. Now, I will start by saying I love the Shin Megami Tensei series. That being said, it's built on very different thematic grounds than FFXIV. Order Versus Chaos is the direct underpinning of SMT, but it's not for FFXIV. Our characters have been on both sides depending on the scenario, but our heroic sides are consistently heroic and the villainous sides are consistently villainous. There's no reason to expect that FFXIV will go in the 'Neutral is always best' direction when There aren't strict Order and Chaos sides.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Well actually reflecting upon your statement - I was watching videos reviewing the elemental chart... and lore

It actually WOULD cover why her statements seem disingenuous. If it's framed in the context of her actual directive. Keep Zodiark at bay. It also goes back to why the Ascians were also more willing to talk about Balance ( ...and also WHY Elidibus is one of the white robed Ascians. It's entirely possible he was part of the group that actually supported the summoning of Hydaelyn. (look at the cave paintings - you had dark robed and white robed). Of course the problem with this is he should be already tempered by Zodiark? The only things I could guess is that he is tempered and I am not sure if that would prevent one from (not summoning himself since it would mean sacrifice) supporting another summon. That of course would be a future plot revealed to us, since it was always odd he was one of the ones NOT wearing a dark robe.

Regardless of Emet's actions or not, it was pretty apparent that the imbalance of light and dark on each of the shards would tip the favor of her WoL that she sent out to defeat the darkness. Her goal was the same to each of them.

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I hadn't considered that detail of the murals until now, thank you for bringing that up.

It does cast Elidibus in an interesting light... I couldn't resist. As well as the title of Emissary, like Lauront mentioned. While I'm hesitant to speculate on that since Emet is on such familiar terms with him, it makes me wonder if perhaps there was some kind of initial dialogue between the pro-Zodiark and -Hydaelyn camps prior to the outbreak of conflict.

It's hard to say whether he or anyone else of that time was or wasn't tempered. It seems that the nature of Hydaelyn is directly antithetical to everything Zodiark and the people who wished him to be stood for, so the interpretation that being tempered by one doesn't disallow the support of summoning the other is the only other logical conclusion we have to run with right now.

As for her efforts in supporting her Warriors of Light across the shards, that's a good point that she's continuing to carry out her initial purpose in weakening Zodiark. The results, however, are mixed at best. One shard lost to Darkness, a complete failure; one nearly lost to Light, having been *too* successful; six more undone by neither Light nor Dark but through Ascian machination, meaning she was outmaneuvered. And then there's the Source itself, which Elidibus himself fears is falling into imbalance due to our overpowering Light. (As an aside to that, during the story I was under the impression for a time that Emet had shifted his strategy to sending us back to the Source *with* the Lightwardens' Light, and whatever effect that may have had. But I digress.) While Hydaelyn can direct her chosen to go out and fulfill her duty, that doesn't imply they'll always succeed, or at least not directly, such as the Warriors of the First, or even Ysayle on the Source. The latter example suggests it's possible to defy or misinterpret her will.

Which brings me to another thought that occurred after running through Amaurot again. During the story and dungeon sequences there, Emet and especially the pseudo-Ascians speak not primarily of Light or Dark, but "creation". Creation as a school of thought and practice of magic.The understanding of those poles and the elements seems to have come later, after the Sundering, with various interpretations among the Shards. While we now understand Darkness to be associated with activity, and consequently creation, now I wonder if the concepts of Light and Darkness were even *conceived* before Zodiark and Hydaelyn were summoned. If not, Hydaelyn, possibly even Zodiark, could have been brought into being with incomplete knowledge of their own nature.

Those themes are still there with or without Hydaelyn btw.

Balance is also a theme.

Nor have I stated that she's EVIL though I was questioning her endgame (ie harvesting as a theory)?. Quite the opposite, she's not evil in the strictest sense. She just may not be good for us in the long run unchecked. I also said retconning was a possibility, but it seems like a massive oversight to overlook it and then have people wanting to question it. I mean it's not like to some degrees errors have gone out before. But since new game plus is going to be a thing, people are obviously going to look back at past evidence to see where the story leads. So regardless if you want to keep touting that reason...it's still a valid reason to question what's going on since it is a sore thumb in all of this.

In interviews about halfway through 5.0 we're going to go through some big turmoil.

we HAVE to fight Ascians that want to restore the status quo if it means our existence has to be eliminated for their goal.

But why even reveal the nature of Dark and Light if it wasn't going to have an even bigger payoff?

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Originally Posted by Cont13

I hadn't considered that detail of the murals until now, thank you for bringing that up.

It does cast Elidibus in an interesting light... I couldn't resist. As well as the title of Emissary, like Lauront mentioned. While I'm hesitant to speculate on that since Emet is on such familiar terms with him, it makes me wonder if perhaps there was some kind of initial dialogue between the pro-Zodiark and -Hydaelyn camps prior to the outbreak of conflict.

The understanding of those poles and the elements seems to have come later, after the Sundering, with various interpretations among the Shards. While we now understand Darkness to be associated with activity, and consequently creation, now I wonder if the concepts of Light and Darkness were even *conceived* before Zodiark and Hydaelyn were summoned. If not, Hydaelyn, possibly even Zodiark, could have been brought into being with incomplete knowledge of their own nature.

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Entirely possible to your latter point. Hydaelyn does not speak negatively but in a mindset of "purity" and stasis.

Certain statements would make sense like Elidibus saying things like you'd never believe him if he told you anyways. It also goes in hand with Emet outright saying that "his group" doesn't think the same way either. It isn't a hivemind collective in the strictest sense. Emet seeming to have different alignment/goals/reasons than Elidibus and Lahabrea so all of them working for the same goal under different reasons and mindsets.

Our ancient self may have been looking for a solution to all this mess.

I think due to their longevity the Ancients feel they have the solution and that's in direct conflict with life as we know it, but that conclusion (might be a better term) is not the solution.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

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While it is annoying if we go kill all Gods story path...

I am speaking more towards the nature and consequences of their maintained existence and what lead to WoL's original soul being turned into WoL and his or her 13 shards.


Story wise there is a big question regarding WoL's Origins now and what really happened between Zodiark and Hydealyn as the Ascian's perspective is still a bias view of the actual events.

There is also a question if there IS a Origin Will of the World who is a actual God/Goddess and not a Primal. Zodiark and Hydealyn have basically replaced the Original Will of the World to prevent the Original Calamity but then we have to question what caused the Original Calamity.

Primals are considered "Fake Gods/Goddesses" because they are born from the imagination of Beings made manifest and most often they need a steady source of Aether to maintain their existance with Zodiark being constant sacrifice of 3.4 of the world and I am assuming Hydealyn been getting her constant energy because she is very close to the lifestream with all souls return to once they die. What if the Real God/Goddess/Will of the world was weakened in the original world by something or someone so he or she could not fight back the Calamity thus WoL's Original Soul was not just a Warrior of Light but THE Warrior of Light that tried to save the world but could not because of STORY reasons.

The Original Will of the Star can be considered the Original/Real God/Goddess but we know it was so weak at the end of the Original Calamity so it just basically given up on living that a new Will had to be made to replace it. However, we lack knowledge to what caused it which I do suspect relates to WoL's Original Souls past and why he or she failed to save the world without needing Zodiark and Hydaelyn.

I suspect we will get more on this in 5.X or atleast during 5.4 to 5.5 since this may be a part of 6.0 storyline.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Hydelyn is EEEVVVILLL!!! According to some people who won't look at basic thematic readings.

I'm really not under the impression that Hydelyn is evil. I mean, the story could definitely go in that direction, but right now the evidence is shaky at best and doesn't really make any sense thematically. Like, basically on any of the points. I'm splitting up the points below into ideas based on what I've seen, although I'll be using somewhat comical titles.

THEMES YA DORKS!!!
Okay, the is one is pretty simple. If you look at the thematic ideas mainly present in Shadowbringers (so far the most thematically cohesive expansion) then it's pretty clear that Hydelyn isn't the 'bad guy', she's the 'good guy'. The main themes in Shadowbringers are Legacy, Impermanence, and the need for the old to die and new life to be protected and secured. By contrast, the villains attempt to sacrifice or kill new life to unnaturally make the present eternal or bring back the past. Emet-Selch is trying to kill the new (The source/Shards) to resurrect Old Amaouritine.So the protagonists (who the writers expect us to agree with) want to let new life live and move on while the Antagonists attempt to pervert the cycle of life.

Which side of that is Zodark, the guy who wants to eat an entire planet's life to ressurrect souls, on?

Which side of that is Hydelyn, who doesn't want that to happen, on?

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Let's forget what happens in the present, let's go back to the time of the Ancients for a second, this is where it all started.

-First of all as much as a lot of people seem to want that to be true : We have no definite proof that it was there Creation Magick that started the Sound from beneath the earth. Every info we get on that front (even from Y'shtola) point to the fact that their Art wasn't affecting the land's aether. And the Sound made them unable to control their Creation Magick (this is what we learn, no speculation), the Calamity isn't their fault since it was out of their control.

-After the deed of summoning Zodiark (willing sacrifice of 50% pop), they saw that the Planet even if saved from the Calamity was still dying and 50% of the remaining population willingly sacrificed themselves to save the Planet. (They saved it 2 times for anyone who's keeping scores)

Then the problems arose with one side wanting to resurrect the sacrifices and one side wanting to let the Planet to the "new lives".

Let's look at the two sides, one at a time :
"Zodiark's side" :
-To begin with, to the people talking about "letting go of the past", I'm pretty sure the decision to resurrect the sacrifices was made not too long after the Calamity, so "letting go of the past" when it's probably not even been a month or two is a pretty bad argument if you ask me. ("Hey all your family/friends died a week ago, just let it go already!").
-And am I the only one who had a different interpretation than a lot of people here when they talked about bringing back their friends ? Hythlodaeus said that they would "nurture life" and offer a portion of its living energy to Zodiark...How is this different than a farmer cultivating his soils/animals for harvest and then consumption ? The only big difference is that Zodiark will bring back people while we will just produce poop. They didn't say that they would destroy the fucking Planet to bring their people back. They don't even have to bring them back all in one go. After that they can continue to nurture life ad infinitum. I would also like to point out that it was them who created most lifeforms on the Planet to begin with.

"Hydaelyn's side" :
-Wants to let the new lives rules the Planet but there is the question of what were this life forms anyway ? Are they the ones that already existed when the Ancients were "in power" but were saved by Zodiark ? Because I'm pretty sure that doesn't qualify as new and that most of them were even created by the Ancients, so there point is moot on that front. We are lacking critical information on this.
-By splitting the Original Planet into 14, they basically destroyed this Original Planet so it's not even the new lives that are ruling since it's "new lives but 14th times weaker than what they were suppose to be" imo. (that's 2 saves for Zodiark and 1 K.O. for Hydaelyn for people keeping scores)

At this point wouldn't this qualify as an act of war against the Council (their government, so it was treason in a sense) ? And since they are pretty much immortals you could say that they are still at war with Hydaelyn. Making them fighting the good fight.

And to finish on a really good bit, I'd like to point out again that the Ancients are born with the ability to use Creation Magick and I saw people said that because the Calamity could happen again, we can't let them live the way they are. Are those people really suggesting to genocide an entire people because of the way they are born and what might happen ? Is this really what you want to go with when defending the summoning of the "good" Hydaelyn ? Are you sure ?

So no, I don't think Hydaelyn is good because the people who summoned her were, imo, wrong.

I think the Ascians are right in what they are doing but we are also right in stopping them (not for Hydaelyn though), we just happened to win.

We gonna get rid of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, then we will tackle what really caused the First Calamity.

Well about Elidibus and his white robe:

Upon closer inspection there are actually a couple of somewhat white Robed figures beneath Zodiark https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...29165858_1.png

That said I find Elidibus a little more fascinating due to the fact he didn't seem to align with the other Acians. He is the most obsessed about balance and the one most frustrated in trying to defend or wanting to explain what is the core issue

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Originally Posted by Tharne

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Apologies if I'm a tiny bit snippy here, but you've accidentally stepped on a Pet Peeve of mine, mainly trying to respond to broad thematic points with non-thematic hyper specific in universe lore. It's working on a fundamentally different level, and it's something I tire of in online discourse.

But that aside, I do have some responses...

There are a few things I feel like I should respond to here, albeit with a more generalized outlook.
First off, I do agree on the point with Creation Magic. We have no proof that it actually is the cause of the calamity, although it certainly made things a lot worse as the despair grew and people's literal worst nightmares came to life. The Creation Magic is a logical choice since most of the earlier calamities are caused by human Hubris in some way, so people gravitate towards it. That being said...

It really doesn't matter.

It doesn't. People act like it's this grand mystery, when frankly I don't think it is. I don't think that's our endgame or anything like that. The focus of the plot wasn't on the mystery of the calamity itself, but on the Ascians and their effect afterwards. None of the Scions even seem to express interest or necessity in finding out what it was, so I simply doubt that it's all that important. What does matter is what happened afterwards. I could be wrong, but what's important to the story is the Ascian/Zodiark Hydelyn conflict, not just what happened in ancient times.

More pressingly though, you're giving me a lot of "Zodiark might have not hurt everyone" style responses that frankly sound more like fanfiction to make the Ascians into good guys than things we actually know. For everyone, here's a quick timeline of events.

1. The Calamity begins outside of Amaurot. Nobody knows the cause, but it progresses quickly. The Amaurotine try to figure out what to do.

2. Desperate times call for desperate measures. The Amaurotine High Council conducts the plan to summon Zodiark. Half of the population is sacrificed to power Zodiark. The first primal saves the world.

3. The World is saved, but is a nearly lifeless wreck. Another half of the population is sacrificed to Zodiark. Life is restored to the planet, new life begins to grow.

4. The Amaroutine high council prepares to sacrifice the life of the planet to resurrect the Amaroutine who died to summon Zodiark. There is a great division however, with people concerned for the new life on the planet. For lack of a better term, this group will be called the Hydelyn Sect.

5. The Hydelyn Sect summons a primal of their own in an attempt to control/defeat Zodiark and protect the new life on the planet. The Ascians oppose them to try and restore Amaurot at all costs. Hydelyn wins out in the end, but the world is split into 14 Shards.

6. The Modern Ascian Order is formed from the Unsundered Ascians who wish to restore Amaurot through rejoining the world. Presumably they will continue on with the 'sacrifice life on the source' plan to resurrect the old Amaroutine.

I will note however, we are missing parts of the story. Namely, we know next to nothing about the side that summoned Hydelyn other than their goal of protecting and shepherding the new life on the planet. I fully expect to hear their side of the story in the patches at some point, probably through Ryne since she's the new Oracle of Light.

And more importantly, how does that change my point at all? One side is selfishly doing bad things to restore themselves and only themselves and the other is trying to protect everyone. One side is still trying to desperately resurrect the past, and the other is entrusting themselves to their future descendants. One side is the one that the story designates as in the right, the other the story designates as in the wrong.

Is this really that hard to get? Am I taking crazy pills?

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

One side is the one that the story designates as in the right, the other the story designates as in the wrong.

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I saw the story depicting both sides to be right (the only wrong side I saw was the one summoning Hydaelyn). Just that we are the one that wins.

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Originally Posted by Tharne

I saw the story depicting both sides to be right (the only wrong side I saw was the one summoning Hydaelyn). Just that we are the one that wins.

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Alright. If you ignore the music, the way characters are framed, the character designs, the subtext associated in a game where the good guys usually win, who we play as, and a whole bunch of other stuff, you're totally right. Both sides are the same and one just wins.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Alright. If you ignore the music, the way characters are framed, the character designs, the subtext associated in a game where the good guys usually win, and a whole bunch of other stuff, you're totally right. Both sides are the same and one just wins.

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Are they the same? Hydaelyn's summoning is kind of an enigma, since a primal summoned with such a small fraction of the population(~12% if we're being generous and assuming it was an even divide) should be no match for one summoned with 50% and then fed half of the remaining population, but she was strong enough to overpower Zodiark, imprison him, shatter reality, and supplant him.

It's also an extremely minor thing, but I kind of want to know how Elidibus, Hades, and Lahabrea managed to escape being sundered unlike the other 11 members of the Convocation.

Sorry, facetiousness and sarcasm don't come across as well on the internet. Obviously both sides aren't the same. Obviously the game's narrative gets to choose who it thinks is right and wrong through all of those things I mentioned. The viewer can disagree (death of the author and all of that) but I was just making a point ha ha.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Alright. If you ignore the music, the way characters are framed, the character designs, the subtext associated in a game where the good guys usually win, who we play as, and a whole bunch of other stuff, you're totally right. Both sides are the same and one just wins.

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Two sides being right in what they are doing doesn't equate to them being the same though.
But if you think you have it all figured it out, more power to you...

Is it impossible to comprehend that a game might display an opinion on its story, settings, and characters? That it might demonstrate these through the tools it has available to it? That you might be able to figure that out? That a side can be portrayed sympathetically but still shown to be as wrong in the end? Shadowbringers does this with Emet-Selch, Vauthry, and even Ran'jit.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

Is it impossible to comprehend that a game might display an opinion on its story, settings, and characters? That it might demonstrate these through the tools it has available to it? That you might be able to figure that out? That a side can be portrayed sympathetically but still shown to be as wrong in the end? Shadowbringers does this with Emet-Selch, Vauthry, and even Ran'jit.

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Is it impossible to think that you might be wrong about the opinion being displayed ?

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Originally Posted by Tharne

Is it impossible to think that you might be wrong about the opinion being displayed ?

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What a sick burn! I am astounded by your creativity and incredible logic!

Pointless mockery aside, I'm trying to make a point that there's a lot more than the literal in game events you have to look at to determine the plot's ideas about something.

But I think I've worn out my welcome a little bit. Thanks for the fun conversation, and I apologize for getting a bit heated.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

What a sick burn! I am astounded by your creativity and incredible logic!

Pointless mockery aside, I'm trying to make a point that there's a lot more than the literal in game events you have to look at to determine the plot's ideas about something.

But I think I've worn out my welcome a little bit. Thanks for the fun conversation, and I apologize for getting a bit heated.

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We already had this narrative with Nidhogg, we feel for him, but we know him to be wrong. Why would they repeat an angle like that ? "That dude is wrong...but wait here's some background info ! Guess what ? He's still wrong !" This is so overplayed everywhere.

And same as with Nidhogg that's what I felt first, it's after thinking about all we learned that I thought he was right.

No need to apologize.