SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now

No, because the collecting aspect and silliness of it's literally what makes it worth investing the amount of time and effort into completing, and jobs like smn have really suffered due to being stripped down.They could very well fit Blue mage into five of the gameplay types that are available to players (tnk, hlr, physical ranged, cqc positional, and turret) at a later date considering that we have like 400+ possible enemy skills. Or, the could just balance it for soloing dungeons..

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

I think that's a bit unfair to say, perform gave birth to an entire SUB community of people recreating songs. It's pretty good content if you ask me.

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Perform is real cool, but it's not really content in the usual sense of it and it isn't the sort of thing you could give something similar to other jobs as some kind of equivalence. Although I do ponder giving samurais something like letting us freedraw really bad calligraphy and then hold it up. That would quickly devolve into dick pics 24/7 though. Maybe let sch's wander around giving npc's math lessons.

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

No, because the collecting aspect and silliness of it's literally what makes it worth investing the amount of time and effort into completing, and jobs like smn have really suffered due to being stripped down.They could very well fit Blue mage into five of the gameplay types that are available to players (tnk, hlr, physical ranged, cqc positional, and turret) at a later date considering that we have like 400+ possible enemy skills. Or, the could just balance it for soloing dungeons..

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People on my side that are against blu do feel that the job could have fit within the XIV framework and most of us don't want the people excited for the solo content to lose that. They could/should make a different version of blu that has a separate job crystal that can be the balanced "XIV blu" that my side wants without the other side losing their solo job. They could take up to the 6.0 expansion to give us this and most of us said it would be fine. Then it wouldn't be a zero-sum game. It will be more of a "1+waitforthe1 = more happy players".

the side content around BLU will probably a good thing, or even an excellent thing.

The matter is not what we have... but what we dont have around the BLU

The true loss will be SE not listening to any feedback and going "Please trust me" again.

I think that the concept of limited jobs themselves is fine. I think the real problem is that a popular, iconic FF job is being locked behind them. If Blue Mage was renamed something else, MaskFighter, w/e, I don’t think there’s be as much of an issue.

But the whole thing stinks to me of SE saying ‘We want to add Blue Mage but we can’t be bothered to balance this job in parties so let’s just not let it in parties’.

I mentioned before in another thread that I’ve never really been interested in Blue Mage so it’s not a big deal to me, but I can imagine if they announced a classic FF job I always really liked them told us we couldn’t use it in a party properly, I’d be pretty upset too

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think that the concept of limited jobs themselves is fine. I think the real problem is that a popular, iconic FF job is being locked behind them. If Blue Mage was renamed something else, MaskFighter, w/e, I don’t think there’s be as much of an issue.

But the whole thing stinks to me of SE saying ‘We want to add Blue Mage but we can’t be bothered to balance this job in parties so let’s just not let it in parties’.

I mentioned before in another thread that I’ve never really been interested in Blue Mage so it’s not a big deal to me, but I can imagine if they announced a classic FF job I always really liked them told us we couldn’t use it in a party properly, I’d be pretty upset too

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Renaming blue mage to something else would be fine IF they also introduced a version of the job for the full game. They wouldn't even have to rename this iteration of blue mage to do that. Leave it as "blue mage" and "blu mage" as the version without the limitations. lol

You hit the nail on the head for the biggest reason we are mad. We also feel it is a very bad signal for the of loss potential creativity in future jobs and content if they get a pass this time. We don't want to see future jobs to have limitations like this as you said.

Just want to show my support for this topic again.

We are seeing a lot of backlash against other companies in the industry that are taking for granted their existing customers in pursuit of a new market. That's not quite what's going on here with limited jobs but it's awfully close. Your player base is not a monolith and that does go both ways. There probably should have been less focus on endgame content and had content spread out a bit more. That could slow down the patch cycle and/or take longer to get some content out but that would probably be for the best.

Not all of us were complaining about the game you had designed. We enjoyed it a lot. There's nothing wrong for trying to get new people to try out the game and make an often neglected part of your player base happy. There is a lot wrong with pushing aside the other part of your player base that wanted more content in the same style as the rest of the game.

Focus on the middle ground and take the time needed to get there.

I never really liked the concept of BLU, so I honestly don't care that they decided to make it a faux-job that can't participate in relevant content except its own "masked carnival" playhouse...but I've always wanted a truly pet based dps job and the idea that they may choose beastmaster as their next "skill collector job" makes me really sad.

I love to see how people theorycraft about something still doesn't exists but they decided it doesn't meet their standards and because that, it must be redone from scratch/not done/done in the "right" another way, because it will be destined to fail (in these people's heads).

It reminds me the "no one will queue main scenario roulette again" predictions when it was made the "unskippable" change.

Cannot say if you're right or wrong, but on my side, when blue comes out, I'll play it, and if I have fun with it, mission accomplished. If not, I'll maybe say my words here. Words based on facts, not thin air or mystic predictions of what will happen.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I love to see how people theorycraft about something still doesn't exists but they decided it doesn't meet their standards and because that, it must be redone from scratch/not done/done in the "right" another way, because it will be destined to fail (in these people's heads).

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Because SE has a track record of releasing content almost exactly as it's introduced. That's why.

At this point, it is safe to assume that BLU will be implemented just like it's shown.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

I love to see how people theorycraft about something still doesn't exists but they decided it doesn't meet their standards and because that, it must be redone from scratch/not done/done in the "right" another way, because it will be destined to fail (in these people's heads).

It reminds me the "no one will queue main scenario roulette again" predictions when it was made the "unskippable" change.

Cannot say if you're right or wrong, but on my side, when blue comes out, I'll play it, and if I have fun with it, mission accomplished. If not, I'll maybe say my words here. Words based on facts, not thin air or mystic predictions of what will happen.

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By their own words, BLU is a solo job, not suited for group play, because their concept for it includes it breaking game balance. This means it will never be able to participate in level cap content, it can't queue for primals, dungeons, raids, 24-mans, pvp, eureka or anything else that happens at end game. It will never be able to do this because the moment it does, game balance is broken, no matter how fondly people hope they raise the job level cap.

Instead it will be able to do open world stuff, exciting stuff such as FATEs. It will also be able to queue for old level appropriate content, that you could face roll with your max level jobs anyway. Also, it's a fair question to ask, how many times have you done below lvl70 content in Stormblood outside of leveling? Personally I would say zero, if it wasn't for the one time I spent 10 minutes tagging along in Ultima extreme to show some mechanics to raid members in preparation for Ultima ultimate. Outside of the new Masked Carnivale, there's pretty much no point in having BLU, since it doesn't fill in any niche you couldn't do better with some other job. That's not a very large scope for very popular and requested class.

It's a mystery why they drew the line with BLU and didn't adjust it for the MMO genre. They did it with all of the other jobs, DRK, RDM, SMN, BRD, DRG etc. Any of those jobs could've been "impossible implement and balance" if they took a hard-line traditionalist approach. If they wanted to give us new type of content, I would've been very happy with some job specific solo content, but gimping a whole class just because of sentimentalism over what BLU has been in the past is just silly to me. And I'm not even excited for BLU. I just don't want to see other interesting job concepts suffer the same fate.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

By their own words, BLU is a solo job, not suited for group play, because their concept for it includes it breaking game balance. This means it will never be able to participate in level cap content, it can't queue for primals, dungeons, raids, 24-mans, pvp, eureka or anything else that happens at end game. It will never be able to do this because the moment it does, game balance is broken, no matter how fondly people hope they raise the job level cap.

Instead it will be able to do open world stuff, exciting stuff such as FATEs. It will also be able to queue for old level appropriate content, that you could face roll with your max level jobs anyway. Also, it's a fair question to ask, how many times have you done below lvl70 content in Stormblood outside of leveling? Personally I would say zero, if it wasn't for the one time I spent 10 minutes tagging along in Ultima extreme to show some mechanics to raid members in preparation for Ultima ultimate. Outside of the new Masked Carnivale, there's pretty much no point in having BLU, since it doesn't fill in any niche you couldn't do better with some other job. That's not a very large scope for very popular and requested class.

It's a mystery why they drew the line with BLU and didn't adjust it for the MMO genre. They did it with all of the other jobs, DRK, RDM, SMN, BRD, DRG etc. Any of those jobs could've been "impossible implement and balance" if they took a hard-line traditionalist approach. If they wanted to give us new type of content, I would've been very happy with some job specific solo content, but gimping a whole class just because of sentimentalism over what BLU has been in the past is just silly to me. And I'm not even excited for BLU. I just don't want to see other interesting job concepts suffer the same fate.

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I don't understand the "wait and see" people as if we were told this was a beta phase during the live letter. They were pretty clear on what their plans are as you said. We hopefully can change their minds.

Then you have the "this is true to what blue mage is" defenders. The learning method they went with is the most common one but that's about it imo. The only main FF title that had more than 30 blue magic spells was FFXI and it was also the only one that made you create a build with your spells. No main FF title locked blue mage/magic out of large parts of the game by design. If it was "true" to blu, it would have something like 24 spells with most doing damage (with some gimmicks) and status effects.

I don't believe blue mage identity is based around what the spells have been programmed to do in past FF games. To me, it is a job that can use enemy spells and how it felt to use those spells. That's why some of the community is able to see blu fitting into FFXIV as more than a limited job.

IMO the concept of limited jobs is an extremely good idea, and could serve to expand the scope of XIV extremely broadly.

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Originally Posted by Freyt

IMO the concept of limited jobs is an extremely good idea, and could serve to expand the scope of XIV extremely broadly.

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"Sometimes you got to go forward by going backward." A wise man named Matthew might have said that some time ago.

So, to you, the way to make the game larger is to put more things in their own little boxes? You think limited jobs will do more to help the game than full jobs WITH fun side content?

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Originally Posted by LaurieB

good, and I can't wait to play it. MMO..massive multiplayer online...says nothing about MMOMG..massive multiplayer MUST GROUP..just because you don't like it doesn't mean there isn't people who do. You have the whole rest of the game. And oh, I DO like it as do many others but that's not your agenda is it? Opinions..you know.

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So a job should be restricted from part of the game just for reasons? It should be for everyone. It's good you and others are excited about the content that is coming with blue mage but a combat job should be MORE than just a side activity. And people on your side should drop this whole "you have the rest of the game" line of thought. It's more than just raiders that are upset and why should we pay a monthly fee if we are unhappy? Should the game just shrink in player base and content until it's what you say it should be or should it make content for people that already liked what the game had to offer AND try to make content for people that have felt neglected?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

So a job should be restricted from part of the game just for reasons? It should be for everyone. It's good you and others are excited about the content that is coming with blue mage but a combat job should be MORE than just a side activity. And people on your side should drop this whole "you have the rest of the game" line of thought. It's more than just raiders that are upset and why should we pay a monthly fee if we are unhappy? Should the game just shrink in player base and content until it's what you say it should be or should it make content for people that already liked what the game had to offer AND try to make content for people that have felt neglected?

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Thing is, BLU isn't a job, it's a "limited job" they could have gone with a different name but it's not a job, it's a piece of content that can do some of the things a job can do. It's not a full job being "restricted" it's not like the "rest" of BLU exists somewhere or is restrained from use, this is all it is.

SE didn't take a standard job and lock it away from parts of the game, they created a separate piece of content designed for it's own things but you can take it into some parts of the game, like how you can take your Chocobo into the overworld but not into instances.
You're arguing that jobs shouldn't be limited from parts of the game, but BLU isn't a job, it's something different with a different set of defining criteria and rules.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Thing is, BLU isn't a job, it's a "limited job" they could have gone with a different name but it's not a job, it's a piece of content that can do some of the things a job can do. It's not a full job being "restricted" it's not like the "rest" of BLU exists somewhere or is restrained from use, this is all it is.

SE didn't take a standard job and lock it away from parts of the game, they created a separate piece of content designed for it's own things but you can take it into some parts of the game, like how you can take your Chocobo into the overworld but not into instances.
You're arguing that jobs shouldn't be limited from parts of the game, but BLU isn't a job, it's something different with a different set of defining criteria and rules.

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So you're point is that they took a highly requested classic FF job (probably second only to dancer) and turned it into side content meant to boost sub retention. I don't disagree with you but saying that way or the way I did doesn't change the fact that a lot of us feel it's an awful idea and limited jobs are a bad direction to be taking the game. Some of us are choosing to use the only power we have and voting with our wallet.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

So you're point is that they took a highly requested classic FF job (probably second only to dancer) and turned it into side content meant to boost sub retention. I don't disagree with you but saying that way or the way I did doesn't change the fact that a lot of us feel it's an awful idea and limited jobs are a bad direction to be taking the game. Some of us are choosing to use the only power we have and voting with our wallet.

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Which is fine, my point is it's not a job and may never have been.
If your only choice was this or nothing and you'd still rather have nothing, that's fine too.
However there are people who want this, would settle for this or are fine either way.
Personally, I'm fine with the idea, Beast Tamer was pretty much off the table until this concept, I'd happily take one in this form over not getting one at all.

While this is purely anecdotal, simply by looking at the forums, while there were several BLU threads the it's a lot of the same people going round and round and there are even some BLU threads praising the idea again with the same for and against people going round and round and the only vote I found in one of them at the time I viewed it was 53% for to 47% against, many other issues have gotten far larger reactions.

With it not being a unanimous "No" BLU is likely going to have to be thrown on the pyre here SE having come so far are going to be more interested in how BLU preforms out there once it's been released and theirs some data to see.
And we don't even know the end game for limited jobs, we know how BLU will come out of the gate but that's it, how often will it be updated? when and by how much will it's cap be raised?

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Which is fine, my point is it's not a job and may never have been.
If your only choice was this or nothing and you'd still rather have nothing, that's fine too.
However there are people who want this, would settle for this or are fine either way.
Personally, I'm fine with the idea, Beast Tamer was pretty much off the table until this concept, I'd happily take one in this form over not getting one at all.

While this is purely anecdotal, simply by looking at the forums, while there were several BLU threads the it's a lot of the same people going round and round and there are even some BLU threads praising the idea again with the same for and against people going round and round and the only vote I found in one of them at the time I viewed it was 53% for to 47% against, many other issues have gotten far larger reactions.

With it not being a unanimous "No" BLU is likely going to have to be thrown on the pyre here SE having come so far are going to be more interested in how BLU preforms out there once it's been released and theirs some data to see.
And we don't even know the end game for limited jobs, we know how BLU will come out of the gate but that's it, how often will it be updated? when and by how much will it's cap be raised?

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Most on our side don't care if blu gets it's own end game. We want to be able to do current content with our friends. Your %s are anecdotal like you said and within the margin of error that's why most have been saying it's a 50/50 split. We are for the most part fine with this side content and it's fine that people are excited for it but we don't want the restrictions. Some on the side I'm on are unsubbing/not returning to the game and adding to the voices that are already telling people that have never tried 14 to stay away. Then think about the wait and see people/those that don't even know what's going on. Some will fall into the love or hate it camps while the majority will just play the content then drop it once they are done. Do you think SE will keep putting resources into a type of content that most are indifferent to, some love it, and has gained them some subs while also costing them subs and who knows how many more potential subs? Or do you think they should accept that this has been a pretty big miss for a decent part of the player base that is also offering them a chance to make it right and most of us are even saying it's fine to take the next two years to make that happen. Compared to how other companies in the industry are facing huge backlashes over botched announcements, we are being pretty chill and giving them the time and feedback on how to make things right by us. It's up to them to try to get us back on board or not but if they don't then I wonder if they will come to regret it in years to come especially if limited jobs don't work out and/or they face backlash over other things in the future. Maybe they will feel that they chose wrong in this moment.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Most on our side don't care if blu gets it's own end game. We want to be able to do current content with our friends. Your %s are anecdotal like you said and within the margin of error that's why most have been saying it's a 50/50 split. We are for the most part fine with this side content and it's fine that people are excited for it but we don't want the restrictions. Some on the side I'm on are unsubbing/not returning to the game and adding to the voices that are already telling people that have never tried 14 to stay away. Then think about the wait and see people/those that don't even know what's going on. Some will fall into the love or hate it camps while the majority will just play the content then drop it once they are done. Do you think SE will keep putting resources into a type of content that most are indifferent to, some love it, and has gained them some subs while also costing them subs and who knows how many more potential subs? Or do you think they should accept that this has been a pretty big miss for a decent part of the player base that is also offering them a chance to make it right and most of us are even saying it's fine to take the next two years to make that happen. Compared to how other companies in the industry are facing huge backlashes over botched announcements, we are being pretty chill and giving them the time and feedback on how to make things right by us. It's up to them to try to get us back on board or not but if they don't then I wonder if they will come to regret it in years to come especially if limited jobs don't work out and/or they face backlash over other things in the future. Maybe they will feel that they chose wrong in this moment.

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Eureka immediately comes to mind, that has had a much larger negative out cry than BLU, it's also had people threaten (and follow through) with un-subbing yet SE continues to push forwards with it, they've tried to change some aspects on it either based on date or feedback but they've mostly stayed the course with it.

I also don't think it's going to have as large an effect as you're making it out, I pointed out my "figures" were anecdotal but so are yours, but for the moment lets say you're right that its basically a 50/50 split, that means of the tiny fraction of the community that uses the forums the part of them that care enough to talk about BLU are split down the middle, that's hardly representative.

Perhaps BLU will do well or well enough for SE to invest in other limited jobs, or it won't and they'll either drop the idea and leave BLU as is or eventually totally remove and just make it a standard job, either way with the reaction being split they're likely to do nothing until BLU is released and see how it fairs.

Though from your replies it seems its less about the concept and more they used BLU and plan to use other job concepts, would you have felt better if they said "We're never adding BLU. In other news here is this new piece of content where you collect abilities and use them in a carnival"?

And before you or anyone else jumps on me that they could add BLU as a standard job, I'm not saying they couldn't SE are, all the way back in 2014 when BLU was first asked about they said it wouldn't work and would likely have to be handled totally differently if they ever attempted it, insinuating BLU was never going to be considered as a standard job and if that was it's only inception they'd simply not add it and do something else.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Eureka immediately comes to mind, that has had a much larger negative out cry than BLU, it's also had people threaten (and follow through) with un-subbing yet SE continues to push forwards with it, they've tried to change some aspects on it either based on date or feedback but they've mostly stayed the course with it.

I also don't think it's going to have as large an effect as you're making it out, I pointed out my "figures" were anecdotal but so are yours, but for the moment lets say you're right that its basically a 50/50 split, that means of the tiny fraction of the community that uses the forums the part of them that care enough to talk about BLU are split down the middle, that's hardly representative.

Perhaps BLU will do well or well enough for SE to invest in other limited jobs, or it won't and they'll either drop the idea and leave BLU as is or eventually totally remove and just make it a standard job, either way with the reaction being split they're likely to do nothing until BLU is released and see how it fairs.

Though from your replies it seems its less about the concept and more they used BLU and plan to use other job concepts, would you have felt better if they said "We're never adding BLU. In other news here is this new piece of content where you collect abilities and use them in a carnival"?

And before you or anyone else jumps on me that they could add BLU as a standard job, I'm not saying they couldn't SE are, all the way back in 2014 when BLU was first asked about they said it wouldn't work and would likely have to be handled totally differently if they ever attempted it, insinuating BLU was never going to be considered as a standard job and if that was it's only inception they'd simply not add it and do something else.

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Oh, I don't think just us that are already complaining about it will change much. I said that once it's actually out, that most players will just play blue mage here and there as content is added but some will fall into one of the two camps that are posting about it now. That when the dust settles, SE might view limited jobs as not worth it. That in the long run decisions to do content like this and not consider feedback will hurt the game. This is what has happened to WoW over the last six years.

If the content was named as something else besides blue mage AND SE didn't use it as an excuse not to do blue mage in the future then I would have been fine with it. I would have preferred they had used freelancer or a unique job to 14 and had a larger scope of what they could do with it.

Yes, we know about Yoshi's statement from 2014. We also know he had said that rdm wouldn't work in the game either. Obviously he doesn't get everything right and there's evidence of that already in the game. They have changed things over time or at least changed some aspects where they could. We are just asking that they add the blu mage content as they already announced WHILE also working on making blue mage available for the full game by the 6.0 expac. A lot of the work is already done and it will let them double-dip on that work to boost subs and expac sales.

Just gonna kick it up.

Helluuuuuu

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Eureka immediately comes to mind, that has had a much larger negative out cry than BLU, it's also had people threaten (and follow through) with un-subbing yet SE continues to push forwards with it, they've tried to change some aspects on it either based on date or feedback but they've mostly stayed the course with it.

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As far as development cycles go, if there's a plan in place then there's not much that they can do but keep the plan in place while also leaving room for some tweaking. Expecting any major changes to Eureka, or even BLU at this point since that is what this thread is about, is probably not reasonable to expect. The best we can hope for is that they keep improving the experience for both (provided there's some negativity regarding BLU) over the course of a few patches. The next part of Eureka however will be the last...or at least that's what we've been told, so I'm hoping they've at least taken the feedback they've received and tweak it to appease the most people they can. Pyros shows that they are capable of learning from past mistakes...mostly.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

As far as development cycles go, if there's a plan in place then there's not much that they can do but keep the plan in place while also leaving room for some tweaking. Expecting any major changes to Eureka, or even BLU at this point since that is what this thread is about, is probably not reasonable to expect. The best we can hope for is that they keep improving the experience for both (provided there's some negativity regarding BLU) over the course of a few patches. The next part of Eureka however will be the last...or at least that's what we've been told, so I'm hoping they've at least taken the feedback they've received and tweak it to appease the most people they can. Pyros shows that they are capable of learning from past mistakes...mostly.

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This. Most on our side are not asking for them to throw away their plans on blue mage. We are asking that they make a plan for blue mage to be a full job in 6.0 and work on that along with the new things for that expansion.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

This. Most on our side are not asking for them to throw away their plans on blue mage. We are asking that they make a plan for blue mage to be a full job in 6.0 and work on that along with the new things for that expansion.

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Well... 5.X would be nice... but yes lol. I don't want to see the book scrapped or this interesting idea of learning weird spells (level 5 death). I'm not bothered at all by a few hoops to jump through to use a unique job in duty content (like certain abilities not allowed, or having to learn them myself first). Nor am I bothered by, but rather encouraging, the idea of them adding more unique functioning jobs (but not as "limited").

Still personally attached to seeing them review "advanced job" title from FFXI and use it a few more times (for something that behaves like Blue Mage).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Well... 5.X would be nice... but yes lol. I don't want to see the book scrapped or this interesting idea of learning weird spells (level 5 death). I'm not bothered at all by a few hoops to jump through to use a unique job in duty content (like certain abilities not allowed, or having to learn them myself first). Nor am I bothered by, but rather encouraging, the idea of them adding more unique functioning jobs (but not as "limited").

Still personally attached to seeing them review "advanced job" title from FFXI and use it a few more times (for something that behaves like Blue Mage).

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Yeah it would be nice during Shadowbringers but I don't see that as being likely. They will be wrapping up some things leading up to the 5.0 launch and already have 5.1 being worked on. So the earliest we could see changes would be 5.2 but I don't see that as being enough time to work blu into a full job while also already doing what they said they will be doing with blu and the Carnival. I don't see our side getting what we want at the expense of what the other side wants because that would be a pretty bad situation for SE. I think that if we do get a full version of blu that we will have to wait for it. The Carnival side content will probably do pretty well and SE will get a better idea of where to test out new ideas instead of doing things like Diadem. I'm still hoping that the other side will join us that are saying we should be asking for combat jobs without the limitations AND the type of side content that a lot of players are asking for. I rather pay the price of "time" than the price of "limited jobs".

I also rather see "advanced jobs" in the sense of jobs that do have some barrier to entry like learning spells and collecting parts/pets and SE take on the challenge of working them into the game instead of backing away from it.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

This. Most on our side are not asking for them to throw away their plans on blue mage. We are asking that they make a plan for blue mage to be a full job in 6.0 and work on that along with the new things for that expansion.

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I was reading many posts for BLU in this forum and many on "your" side ask for it to "never be implemented" "burn" "dead on arrival" and others.
It is the first time, that someone actually said "being turned into an normal job at 6.0".
And I think almost nobody from "my side" (positiv about the current blu implementation) would be against that idea.

If that is the case, they should refrain from releasing this class.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I was reading many posts for BLU in this forum and many on "your" side ask for it to "never be implemented" "burn" "dead on arrival" and others.
It is the first time, that someone actually said "being turned into an normal job at 6.0".
And I think almost nobody from "my side" (positiv about the current blu implementation) would be against that idea.

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Well I think dead on arrival is a different sentiment than "just get rid of it" lol but I've never expected SE to be able to make any substantial addition before 4.5, before even 5.0. I was hoping within 5.X patch series it would get duty finder support though. 6.0 is quite the wait lol, but better than never.

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Originally Posted by Laphael

I was reading many posts for BLU in this forum and many on "your" side ask for it to "never be implemented" "burn" "dead on arrival" and others.
It is the first time, that someone actually said "being turned into an normal job at 6.0".
And I think almost nobody from "my side" (positiv about the current blu implementation) would be against that idea.

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Yeah, sadly there was an uptick in people on my side saying things I don't agree with like this blu being a waste of resources. I have myself said I want to see "THIS version of limited jobs crash and burn" in the sense that hopefully SE will see that the concept isn't well received but the content is. That we will get to a middle ground and have both sides happy. That SE doesn't decide that solo content isn't worth it due to the backlash but that they went about it in not the best way.

There have been plenty on my side that are saying to make it a normal combat job AND keep the side content aspect and various means that could potentially work.
And there have been people on your side that have stated they don't want that to happen. That's why our side have been trying to say that it's not a "us vs them" and zero-sum game. A lot of us believe that it's possible for both sides to be happy.

I will ask for people to temper their "feedback", keeping in mind that you can not currently give accurate feedback about a product that has had no parallel previously released. You can give feedback about the announcement, sure. But then keep in mind that the announcement is only a glimpse into what we're getting, and has a very vague future ahead of it.

I would like to point you towards the story of Icarus. Daedalus, believed that increasing altitude would bring the sun too close to Icarus, and melt the wax that held the bird feathers on to his flying contraption. This is the case of this story. However, modern science has had time to understand and learn, and now knows the truth. It, in fact, gets colder.

The lesson here is in predictions. They are not fool-proof. We wont truly know how this first-of-its-kind Limited Job will ultimately play out, and further still, we do not know it's future. Square Enix will release it in it's current state. We will play it. Once we have seen and done everything there is to it, then we must ask "What next?" We must say "I liked this." or "I don't like this." It may surprise you, or you may end up feeling affirmed in your spite. It may leave you feeling satisfied in vindication, saying "I told you so!". Or, you may feel shame that it went well, and say nothing.

Presumption of innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. By these terms, we must say that Blue Mage is currently innocent, as no evidence is currently available to charge it with the crime of being bad. Wait till it's been released, and examine the evidence that will present itself then. Only then may it be fairly judged.

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

~all that text~

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>2018
>asking people on the internet to be sensible

New here? :D

Seriously though, I'm with you here. People thinking they know everything about BLU when we've been given barely 0.0001% information on how it will be, and haven't even gotten to try it out yet is just silly.

Reserve judgement not even for release, nor your first hour with it. Complete it 100%, and then you will be able to adequately judge it.

People wouldn't judge the whole of FFXIV just by getting a GLD to level 12, so how can you judge BLU?

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

We wont truly know how this first-of-its-kind Limited Job will ultimately play out, and further still, we do not know it's future.

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People criticizing what has been shown so far are trying to influence the job's future as early as possible because SE's development cycle is painfully slow.

It's entirely reasonable to criticize a piece of content beforehand when we have the information. It's easy to infer what SE plans on doing, as they have made their intentions very clear. That said, Blue Mage is not a waste of resources. If the side content ends up being fun, that's cool. But it needs to be able to participate in the actual game. This is what my side is unhappy about. The reasons that Yoshi-P gave for Blue being locked out of most of the game were weak, at best. Not to mention, it's SE actively admitting defeat as opposed to trying something actually new and daring.

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Originally Posted by Videra

If the side content ends up being fun, that's cool. But it needs to be able to participate in the actual game.

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No. No it really doesn't. Let me explain why.

CURRENT TYPICAL DUTY FINDER EXPERIENCE

>queue up and get into duty
>tank is DRK, cool cool
>we have NIN, starts prepping mudras, nice
>we have BRD, okay cool
>go time
>DRK isn't in Grit, loses some aggro, but recovers well
>NIN single-attacks everything, except Doton. Lets Huton drop regular
>BRD never uses songs, spams Quick Nock without Raging Strikes, then waits 3 mins while TP regens
>NIN doesn't use Goad or Trick Attack
>no-one is dying thanks to me, but I can't DPS as much because DRK is squishy
>dungeon takes forever
>ask politely why NIN and BRD don't use the skills they have
>"eh, this isn't Savage, who cares?"
>37 mins later, we finish
>0 comms

Okay, now let's take the typical FFXIV player, give them BLU and then let them loose in DF...

>join duty
>DRK tank, mmkay
>2x BLU because of course
>DRK has Grit up, but only pulling one group at a time
>soon see why
>both BLU are using their basic skills that you get with the job stone
>nothing else
>ask why they aren't using their more powerful skills
>"eh, finding them is too much hard work, I'm going to cap BLU doing roulettes and then go find the skills because it'll be easier"
>"b-b-but the game literally tells you where to get them"
>"eh, I cba with all that, I'm only going to get the massively OP ones"
>reach duty expiry because BLU

The problem with BLU is that, unlike EVERY OTHER JOB, the skills aren't GIVEN to you, you have to actively seek them out and uncover them. And your average FFXIV player just does not want to put the time and effort into doing that.

Believe me, I was excited to hear about BLU, but my first thought was "Dear god, DF is going to literally suck ALL of the ass".

The changes don't need to come from SE.

The changes need to come from the players.

And the players just... don't care about how their play affects other people.

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

The problem with BLU is that, unlike EVERY OTHER JOB, the skills aren't GIVEN to you, you have to actively seek them out and uncover them. And your average FFXIV player just does not want to put the time and effort into doing that.

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In a game full of gating there is just no way to prevent BLU from ruining the Duty Finder.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blokeymon

Summed up: We can't have nice things because people are stupid

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All new jobs need to be limited. In fact, all jobs need to be limited. The best way to protect us from DF is to make the whole game solo and get rid of the need to possibly encounter stupid entirely.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

All new jobs need to be limited. In fact, all jobs need to be limited. The best way to protect us from DF is to make the whole game solo and get rid of the need to possibly encounter stupid entirely.

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I know you jest, but I have had some Squadron runs that have gone FAR smoother than DF runs... in fact, I've had more successful Vault runs in Squadrons than in DF, and I genuinely wish I was joking.