Dark Knight under review: Feedback to the Developers and Community Team

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

To be fair, WAR was heavily reworked in 2.1. It was far more broken than any tank ever have been, but still, they did it back then.

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That was then, this is now. No job in 4.X has had a total and complete rework, nor can we ever expect them to do so mid-patch again. It's essentially the same logic as them not releasing a job mid-expansion as well, it just won't happen due to the time and resources it would cost them to do so. 4.2's WAR was not a rework, there were no changes to the flow of the job at a basic level, the only thing they did was combine some skills so that it requires less buttons to get similar results as to what it could already do; with the added bonus of auto Direct Crits and some added effects associated to the new IR and the alteration to Shake it Off.

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Originally Posted by Arek

What a lame excuse ! So Warrior can be rework in a regular patch but not DRK ? Seriously ? /disgusted. I don't think it's a bad translation but a bad communication for sure. So lame...

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The 4.2 Warrior changes were also described beforehand as "improvements to usability," even though they ended up pretty big, so these DRK changes might actually end up being significant. Here's to hoping...

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

It's essentially the same logic as them not releasing a job mid-expansion as well, it just won't happen due to the time and resources it would cost them to do so.

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No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

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That alone isn't too much different than the halving of the beast gauge upon changing stances and how it interacts with the job's flow. That's without bringing in the obvious Shake It Off, potency adjustments, Inner Release, etc. The only thing Dark Knight has got remotely on that level is the Quietus draining MP change, which can be argued to be more of an emergency fix than a rework anyway.

I guess we'll talk again in the aftermath, who really knows what these "substantial" changes will be. Warrior certainly has received a lot of attention and care patch by patch thus far (definition of a "rework" aside) and it's time to see another tank catch up.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

To be fair, WAR was heavily reworked in 2.1. It was far more broken than any tank ever have been, but still, they did it back then.

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It really wasn't a rework. It was a straight buff to add/increase mitigation on a bunch of skills, with the exception of Inner Beast getting reduced healing. We didn't go from a self healing tank to a mitigation tank, we went from a tank with no mitigation and bad healing to a mitigation tank.

I know these are probably not the changes you guys wanted, but what you are getting sounds like it'll be pretty damn good?
I want them to rework the Lily system on WHM, but if they told me to wait 6 months while buffing everything else I had up I'd be happy.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I know these are probably not the changes you guys wanted, but what you are getting sounds like it'll be pretty damn good?
I want them to rework the Lily system on WHM, but if they told me to wait 6 months while buffing everything else I had up I'd be happy.

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I don't think any Dark Knight is necessarily sad or ungrateful, just between tentatively doubtful and cautiously optimistic, considering we've been burned by tiny potency adjustments to Souleater in the past that were supposed to have addressed problems with the class. Much of Dark Knight's issues are a sense of not being treated fairly compared to the other tanks, hence being told the solution is so far out when other tanks have had meaningful adjustments as patches go is worrying. I for one will not be counting my chickens before they hatch, yet I do have an excitement about how a job very dear to me might finally make progress in evolution.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not. Correcting a significant inbalance has nothing to do with creating a complete new job from scratch. Especially when tank balance has been invoked to justify why we didn't received a 4th tank.

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It takes time, and resources, that's all they care about. It's obvious, they mention "it would take some time" and how they have very limited time between each patch. This has nothing to with with the act of creating a new job but it is undeniable that introducing a job mid expansion and fully reworking a job would require the same amount of time and resources—they've said it themselves. It's just not feasible. So where you're getting that idea from is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And even without talking about 2.1, WAR had one skill completely changed and another one heavily modified, but they can't change Dark Arts so that it would be a toggle or even a short duration skill instead of a one-time effect, or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passenger, a thing that it shouldn't have in the first place considering it already has a cooldown ?

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Did they really though? They combined Berserk and IR, and added auto Critical Direct Hits and removed Beast gauge usage, untied it from Unchained and made a new trait to accompany the IR+Berserk merger, but functionally the core features of the job remained the same. IR was not as heavily ingrained into WAR like Dark Arts is with DRK; which has effects listed on individual skills, specific potency increases based around our bloody stances that are listed on multiple skills withn our kit. Simply put, IR and Berserk are buffs and exist on their own without direct influence on other skills in a WAR's kit, Dark Arts; while a buff to DPS, is ultimately a mechanic that is at the very core of Dark Knight's identity that poses a problem were they to change it in such a drastic way.

Inner Release was not altered in a way that changed what kind of skill it was. It had a duration before the 4.2 changes, it has one now. It acted as a timed buff then, and it still does. They literally just changed Berserk and combined it with IR then did a bunch of potency changes to make up for the loss of Berserk at 70. That's really not a "complete change" nor is it really all that heavily modified. Dark Arts being turned into a persistent buff that falls off after its duration would be introducing a brand new action as the previous Dark Arts would no longer be able to exist as the use and application would differ greatly; think like how 3.X Delirium and 4.0 delirium didn't share the same action button and the old one was replaced with a grayed out icon... that is ultimately what you're asking for a new skill to replace Dark Arts. That's where your logic fails.

Furthermore, the idea of turning Dark Arts into an Inner Release window, just with a tinge of edge, is simply uninspired and I fail to understand why you, or anyone, would ever want that. Ultimately, we should be wanting unique gameplay that bolsters our identity as a Dark Knight, not to be a an edgy copy of WAR.

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or reduce/remove the absurd MP cost of Dark Passeng

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I sure would like to know what's convinced you this isn't being changed? Do you by chance have the patch notes? I'd love to see them if you do, because this is baseless conjecture that provides little value to this discussion at all. I'll quote what we learned today about the changes so that you can stop making such... weird claims.

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decided to prioritize the clear and understandable feed back and adjusted as much as they could with the available time. The changes to Dark knight will be basically improvements to usability and buffs to both their DPS and defensive capabilities.

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Where here; or anywhere for that matter, is it said that there will be no changes to Dark Passenger?

The live letter said there'd be eight changes including damage, defensive and usability adjustments, as well as the change to Plunge's speed and animations lock.

WAR had 15 changes in 4.2, all were previously said to be "changes to general usability," meanwhile we now have confirmation that not only are they changing DRK's usability, but also it's damage and defensive capabilities and we know that these adjustments are based around our feedback. And since one of the biggest communal complaints for Japanese and English players in the fact that DP is wholly and completely useless outside of AoE situation; and its cost is far too high, it's one of the biggest cnadidates for one of these changes. So for all you know, one of those changes could in fact be Dark Passenger, and you're just blowing your gasket about it for no reason.

I myself am actually excited that I may be able to actually pick up my main for Savage again and not be stuck floating WAR and PLD because that's all that groups want anymore. Dark Knight could use any positive changes they make to it, and we're getting nine changes in a single patch. yes, they could screw up, but now that we know these changes are directly related to our feedback rather than what they wanted for the job—there's very little room to doubt that these changes will be good for the job as a whole and probably consist of many of the smaller alterations we've been clamoring about and encouraging for months on end now.

I am just glad they are doing something. I remember how PLD was all 3.x

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

a significant inbalance

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Stopped reading right there.

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Originally Posted by Derio

I am just glad they are doing something. I remember how PLD was all 3.x

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Never forghetti.

Funny, was there any post like this with so many follow up back in3.x with PLD? If it did, then I can only remember replys as how to play a war or drk without grit, stance dancing blah blah blah then PLD was bad only because of meta...Dev team has a WAR main inside I guess. From my prospective, usage of dark arts should ignore the downside of grit, then rework Blood Spiller's potency in just DA or non DA and make it an ability.

I'd personally like the benefit of all tank stance to be highly increased so that going dps stance isn't always the best scenario.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I'd personally like the benefit of all tank stance to be highly increased so that going dps stance isn't always the best scenario.

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It isn't.

But people like to think that all groups are 100% fully optimised killing machines, and any situation that you need to go into tank stance for just translates to being a bad tank.

So the only things I’m a fan of is the soul survive and Shadow Wall change.

If DRK is getting reworked for 4.4 ( I doubt) I’d propose this:

Dark Arts - Increases damage dealt by 25%. MP regeneration stops during battle and Refresh statuses granted by others have no effect.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Darkside- Attune with the darkness within you, reducing weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP, while reducing weaponskill TP cost by 20%. Also increases Blood Gauge by 3 each time a physical attack lands.
Duration: 60s (Blood Gauge)
Cannot be used while under the effect of Grit. Effect is canceled if Grit is activated.

Bloodspiller - Delivers an attack with a potency of 400. (oGCD)
Darkside Potency: 540
Grit Potency: 475
Dark Arts + Grit Potency: 650
Additional Effect: Extends Darkside and Blood Price effects by 7s and 8s respectively.

Scourge - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Darkside Potency:
Combo Action: Spinning Slash
Combo Potency: 240
Darkside Combo Potency: 380
Additional Effect: Damage over time
Potency: 75
Duration: 24s

Edit: Nvm, way to similar to NIN

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

If DRK is getting reworked for 4.4 ( I doubt) I’d propose this:

Dark Arts - Increases damage dealt by 25%. MP regeneration stops during battle and Refresh statuses granted by others have no effect.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Darkside- reducing weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP, while reducing weaponskill TP cost by 20%. Also increases Blood Gauge by 3 each time a physical attack lands.
Duration: 60s (Blood Gauge)
Cannot be used while under the effect of Grit. Effect is canceled if Grit is activated.

Scourge - Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Darkside Potency:
Combo Action: Spinning Slash
Combo Potency: 240
Darkside Combo Potency: 380
Additional Effect: Damage over time
Potency: 75
Duration: 24s

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Your iteration of Dark Arts is just current Darkside, and your Darkside current Blood Weapon. You changed a bit some values (like 60s instead of 15/23s, 25% instead of 20%).
There's an issue with this idea of Scourge as a third combo: you don't want a DPS combo starting with an aggro combo. PLD had a similar issue with Royal Authority being tied to Savage Blade back in 3.X. Spinning Slash has a 5x enmity ratio, which would unecessarily raise your aggro while being offtank.

Also bringing a 840 potency combo in DRK's kit and making Bloodspiller oGCD would skyrocket its DPS. Considering how cautious they are about the DRK, and how they buff it little by little, I highly doubt they'll make such important changes without a complete rework of the job (which would be at best with 5.0).

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Originally Posted by Megguido

There's an issue with this idea of Scourge as a third combo: you don't want a DPS combo starting with an aggro combo. PLD had a similar issue with Royal Authority being tied to Savage Blade back in 3.X. Spinning Slash has a 5x enmity ratio, which would unecessarily raise your aggro while being offtank.

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Totally agree with you here.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

Also bringing a 840 potency combo in DRK's kit and making Bloodspiller oGCD would skyrocket its DPS. Considering how cautious they are about the DRK, and how they buff it little by little, I highly doubt they'll make such important changes without a complete rework of the job (which would be at best with 5.0).

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I agree that the changes he listed would probably be too much DPS, but I do believe that aggressively increasing DRK DPS would be one fast way to help the class out. For all other classes, low utility typically means they are balanced with higher DPS. This just isn't true for DRK though. What do they bring to the table? Virtually no utility (lol TBN), mediocre DPS, no burst, mediocre damage mitigation against anything non magical. Wooooo. The only thing they ever really bring is their magic mitigation (though admittedly, it is VERY strong. Dark Mind can be really OP). They could easily increase any one of the other weak items I listed and DRK would still not be better than either of the other tanks. Increasing DPS just so happens to be the easiest of those options.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I agree that the changes he listed would probably be too much DPS, but I do believe that aggressively increasing DRK DPS would be one fast way to help the class out. For all other classes, low utility typically means they are balanced with higher DPS. This just isn't true for DRK though. What do they bring to the table? Virtually no utility (lol TBN), mediocre DPS, no burst, mediocre damage mitigation against anything non magical. Wooooo. The only thing they ever really bring is their magic mitigation (though admittedly, it is VERY strong. Dark Mind can be really OP).

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DRK's defensive toolkit is awesome against magic damage, but it doesn't mean it's shit against physical damage. Compare that to PLD and tell me how PLD's kit isn't mediocre against physical damage either ?

PLD's personnal defensive tools are:
- Sentinel, 40% mitigation, 3 min CD
- Sheltron, 20-28% mitigation, one hit only
- Bulward, basically fluff damage mitigation, 3 min CD

DRK's are:
- Shadow Wall, 30% mitigation, 2 min CD
- TBN, 20% max HP, 15s CD

DRK's TBN covers both the utility of Sheltron and Bulwark. Shadow Wall is a weaker Sentinel on a shorter cooldown. Imo, both kits are really close at mitigating physical damage. Now let's not forget there's not a single savage/extreme fight since 4.0 that is 100% physical damage, where DRK brings an additional 30% mitigation skill on a 1 min cooldown.

In my opinion, utility isn't the best quality a tank must bring to the party. For example, when a WAR has to Holmgang, a DRK can use TBN+DM instead and just reduce the tankbuster to less than 20k damage, which means an Essential Dignity or Benediction can be used on something else. It's definitely not the best speedrun tank, but it is a really good one during progression phase. Kinda makes healers' job a bit less stressful as well (looking at double Wings of Destruction for example).

Also "Mediocre DPS" is nothing but a hyperbole, when you consider that over all 5 Sigmascape fights, for percentiles between 75 and 95th, DRK is 55 DPS lower than PLD in the worst scenario. Does mediocre means 1.4% lower DPS than the 2nd highest tank ? SE could increase DRK's DPS by a flat 200 so it's the highest among all three tanks, and people wouldn't see the damn difference, beside "lol muh deeps". WAR and PLD would still be the kings of speedrun due to LB cheesing. DRK would remain the same except it's a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

WAR and PLD would still be the kings of speedrun due to LB cheesing. DRK would remain the same except it's a bit better.

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You made my entire point for me. I don't want it to be better than the other 2 tanks. I just want it to be in line. If the job is going to have barely any utility, then it should have higher or the highest personal DPS. Mediocre damage was comparing it to WAR, not PLD. PLD has mediocre damage as well, but this is fine because it has a metric crapton of utility. As far as personal mitigation, I didn't say PLD was any better in that department. PLD is ugly there too, but again has a completely insane amount of utility to compensate.

All tanks have their pros and cons. 150 or 200 more DPS hardly matter, when your own skills and gear are worth much more. Give 200 more DPS to a Grit-and-Power-Slash-only DRK and he still won't go higher than 2000 DPS.

All in all, even with a bit more DPS you wouldn't see the difference. That's why I can't really agree with "please give DRK more damage". Yeah more damage would be nice. It won't magically "fix" the job though.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

All in all, even with a bit more DPS you wouldn't see the difference. That's why I can't really agree with "please give DRK more damage". Yeah more damage would be nice. It won't magically "fix" the job though.

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I definitely agree that more DPS won't "fix" the job either, but it would help to balance it out a bit. The job is in desperate need of a complete rework, and since we'll likely be waiting till 5.0 for that, a short term simple fix would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

All tanks have their pros and cons. 150 or 200 more DPS hardly matter, when your own skills and gear are worth much more. Give 200 more DPS to a Grit-and-Power-Slash-only DRK and he still won't go higher than 2000 DPS.

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This doesn't seem relevant to the conversation at all to me. A Grit and Powerslash only DRK isn't going to ever be taking part in serious end game raiding anyways. They'd be kicked so damn hard that their noses would bleed.

In my opinion, the current fix they did with 4.2 and 4.3 are fine. A simple potency boost would be lame.

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This doesn't seem relevant to the conversation at all to me. A Grit and Powerslash only DRK isn't going to ever be taking part in serious end game raiding anyways.

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I'm seeing way more 2k DPS DRK in extreme content than you may think. Those breaking 3k DPS in Byakko ex or Tsuku ex are so damn rare (hell, even on O5S or O6S).

My point is, lots of people complain how DRK isn't balanced, but they can't even play it properly. Balanced or not, it won't matter.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

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I mean you aren’t wrong, I just added those values just to have them. I’ve never mathed for a class on the forums here, and rest asssure I don’t plan on it.

I personally liked the Darkside drain mechanic in HW, so I’m like why not make it a buff you have to extend.

I personally thought that the Royal Authority combo in hw was broken until SB added shirk. I wouldn’t mind an extra combo off of Spinning Slash with all the Aggro resets.


I had an idea for more until I realized that no matter how they change DRK it’ll always be meh.

I'v stopped playing for a year or so,usually played casually, got DRK lv 70 my one and only class.

Is there any video or a good guide that shows how exactly should DRK be played? at least the one that it would be good to learn from? when i usually do dungeons people pretty much tell me i did a good job,but those a just a regular dungeons/instances.

I see lots of post where people say it's wrong to spam DA too much or you lose MP,so i would like to learn or at least get pointed in the right direction of becoming a good DRK if that's possible.

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Originally Posted by Nullified

I'v stopped playing for a year or so,usually played casually, got DRK lv 70 my one and only class.

Is there any video or a good guide that shows how exactly should DRK be played? at least the one that it would be good to learn from? when i usually do dungeons people pretty much tell me i did a good job,but those a just a regular dungeons/instances.

I see lots of post where people say it's wrong to spam DA too much or you lose MP,so i would like to learn or at least get pointed in the right direction of becoming a good DRK if that's possible.

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How to play 4.X DRK:

1. Build aggro lead with DA-PS combo in grit if MTing, then turn grit off and try to avoid using it again.
2. look up proper opener and use it
3. Never cap out on MP, so make sure you spam enough DA
4. Never cap out on blood, so make sure you use blood spiller whenever you can
5. Keep all offensive cooldowns on cooldown!

Do ALL of that, and you're ensured very respectable DPS. Oh yeah, always use delirium with blood weapon, never without.

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Originally Posted by Nullified

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i dont know any visual or vid guide to help you but i can give you tips based on my experience.

keep this rules:
- use as much DA as you want but always have a safe net of 2400 for TBN you need in any moment and prioritize DA + carve and spit like in heavensward, the rest of the skills are just 140 potency extra so it dosent matter where you place you DA.
- always use sole survivor, after the last patch the skill is usable and is free MP for more DA with is more dps so dont think it twice and keep it on recast, if you can use it on targets are about to die you get a bonus of 10% extra resources so keep that in mind.
- dark passenger is still useless single target, yeah is 140 potency per 2400mp like the rest of the 2400mp uses but the other skills get a benefic from slashing and passenger is magic only, use it on 2 or more targets with DA always or on single target on runs you party dont have slashing.
- like on heavensward for pulling multiple targets you use unleash and when you gather all the mods you burn abyssal drains on it, use TBN on this place bcs grant you extra blood and you can use quietus to gain more mp easily so try to keep the rule of 2400mp here too, dark passenger +DA here is perfect and the blind effect cover you a bit, use abyssal with DA if you need some extra heal or if you healer is struggling to keep you, otherwhise just spam abyssal, i recomend stay on grit here, some take it off bcs blood weapon make quietus generate more MP but tends to overflow, i think the safe rute is better and let you healers spam some aoes but you choice.
- delirium have priority over bloodspiller so use it always with blood weapon.
- control you gauge too for delirium, if you will have it ready soon it can be better save the blood for insta activation but the most important thing is never overflow blood or MP bcs is a waste of potency you will never recover and never use delirium without blood weapon or blood price.
- salted earth on recast as usual.
- plunge + DA generate extrea agro, is a very small amout but keep it in mind if you need some, plunge+DA every 30 sec is a lot in the end but is not necesary if you are properly geared and the party do they job with diversion and such.

on the defensive field:
-since last shadow wall buff and dark mind never being a dps lost to use it at maximun potency DRK have more versality, pair always rampat, shadow wall or dark mind with TBN.
- for fluff mitigation like auto attacks some ppl will tell you to use TBN for it, i dont recomend it especially with high ping, if the shield dont pop you will waste dps and mitigation, you can try it but TBN works better on high spike damage, i never use it against AA except is a emergency, DRK lack of any pasive mitigation since souleater heal is lock behind grit, but still dont force yourself on use TBN outside of TB or raid aoe, loose 140p is not worthy for the shield,npractically every top DRK use it only on TB and raid aoes.
- as i say before TBN on mass pulling help you to gain blood for quietus and this one gives you mana and mana for more TBN and abyssal.

for role skills, rampath, convalescence and provoke are mandatory, reprisal help a lot on ride wide aoes so its mandatory too on extremes or raid in general and shirk for any 8 team party, provoke and shirk you MT is a powerful utility to help it to keep agro or swaps without need to use agro combos or stay on tank stance, outside of raids and extremes you can swap shirk for anticipation, its a nice skill for masspulling on dungeons.

meaby i forget something but i hope this help you to be better.

Here is the Emiin Vanih guide which should be up to date with current patch. It goes into some pretty granular depth about the job which is worth looking at.