Mentor Players Kicking newer players from Duty Ques for low DPS

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

For Sohr Khai, if the first 5+ min really were that bad, the party could have a reasonable expectation of failing Hraesvelgr at the end. There is a soft enrage. You run out of platforms and you die. I've been in a group where it happened.

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It's been a while since I've run that, but don't all the bosses have a soft enrage there? I think the moogle casts an additional Mog Holy each time, and the thunder horse will destroy a wall with each jump.

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Originally Posted by ArikDimas

It's been a while since I've run that, but don't all the bosses have a soft enrage there? I think the moogle casts an additional Mog Holy each time, and the thunder horse will destroy a wall with each jump.

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First time I ran SK was with other members of my raid group:
The moogles we mostly left alone, but the stacking regens did make it annoying. We were treating it like T12 (kill bennu, raised, kill bennu again). Nothing healing couldn't get through.
The horse we never used the walls. We stood in the middle and just ate the vul stacks. Never did enough damage to kill any of us and it died far too fast to make it a worry since it can be hit virtually the entire time. Again, nothing healing couldn't get through.

Didn't learn the real solution to the mechanic until expert on some other day. I'm sure at minimum ilevel, it would most likely spell wipe.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

I would assume that it's hard for the OP to upgrade his gear if he is getting kicked from Dungeons that reward tomestones for better gear.

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If only there was a way that someone could get i200-210 gear in a small amount of time with minimal effort without having to go into a dungeon...

Whats with these so called "Mentor('s)" that have no respect to new players and dont even HELP at all!? D: <
Do they think everyone is a profesional or/and buying a set of lv250HQ from MB as soon they hit lv60?

Those "Mentors" are fault that new players might think: "Oh wow, all high ilvl players are asses!" and quit our nice game! >_>

Also just like to point out mentors are there to help out novices. They are under no obligation to explain and help out post novice. Yes I help people out all the time but that is in my nature.

Players also have this misconception of what the Mentor Roulette is, it is there to fill duties that are struggling to find roles hence why it covers majority of fights in the game. Of course if it is a pre HW dungeon or their is a sprout in the party then a mentor should explain if they are seeing people struggle. One of the duties on the list is Dun Scaith. Players are not going to stop at every boss and explain the mechanics. Now if there is a wipe you may find you get some advice wanted or not.

Once that sprout goes you are no longer a novice and if you feel that you still need help then I suggest that you slow down and stop doing the story. This way you don't lose novice status, you have access to novice network for advice and can repeat dungeons for experience in learning your class/job.

Now is the time for you to step up after losing the sprout, either read a guide on equipment/dungeon, ask friends to run with you and learn, ask your FC or linkshell. Some people don't even want advice in later dungeons as they want to run it blind. Unless there is a wipe/ I see a player struggling or I am asked in a HW dungeon then I won't give advice.

One other thing unless it specifically says PvE mentor then don't expect the mentor to know anything about the dungeon. Reason I say this is I died in a dungeon whilst having craft mentor on and I got comments like "lol your a mentor and you died" to which I replied "It says craft mentor, so unless you want one of these mobs turned into a table then get on with the dungeon"

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Mentors will also gain access to Duty Roulette: Mentor, which assigns players to duties that are struggling to fill party member slots.

With the exception of parties actively seeking members for an ongoing duty, Duty Roulette: Mentor will not match together a full party of mentors.

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Not gonna lie I do love to run things blind. If we wipe then I ask. Haha

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

Whats with these so called "Mentor('s)" that have no respect to new players and dont even HELP at all!? D: <
Do they think everyone is a profesional or/and buying a set of lv250HQ from MB as soon they hit lv60?

Those "Mentors" are fault that new players might think: "Oh wow, all high ilvl players are asses!" and quit our nice game! >_>

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The OP blamed the mentor for initiating vote kick even though there's no way of knowing if the mentor initiated or even agreed to it. To be honest, I believe OP isn't telling the full story as they've been kicked twice consecutively.

Regarding the OP, and people back and forthing about the lack of cross class skills - yes they are "needed" for an end game duty to maximise your potential, but this newbie is just starting out. Give them a break..

As for BRD with Invigorate, you can actually likely get away without invigorate with the right DoT managment on pulls of 5 or less mobs - at least while you are starting out with your first job. Apply DoT's, rotate through and use Iron Jaws before the DoTs fall off and spam RoD whenever it procs. Still ends up doing fairly solid damage. I know when you start to get to 5+ mobs, spamming Quick Knock is going to be flat out better, and this is not optimal by any means, but it's going to do a lot more damage than "that guy" who single targets during a mass pull.

Yes Invigorate is absolutely necessary, as is blood for blood to maximize potential, however not having these early on as a newbie isn't life or death..

Twice in a row does seem rather suspect but I have run into quite a number of bad-attitude mentors both in DF and in the novice network - so there are absolutely plenty of them around.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

One other thing unless it specifically says PvE mentor then don't expect the mentor to know anything about the dungeon. Reason I say this is I died in a dungeon whilst having craft mentor on and I got comments like "lol your a mentor and you died" to which I replied "It says craft mentor, so unless you want one of these mobs turned into a table then get on with the dungeon"

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I lol'd at this.. I hope you got 3 commendations for that response alone.

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I do want to add something I experienced that isn't entirely mentor related - but more related to the vote kick..

I have been leveling MNK over the passed week. Up to the cursed Vault.. Get to final boss without much drama..
We wipe to the same spot 3 times due to the healer failing the heal check.

The other DPS initiated a vote kick, I personally voted no, the tank voted yes. Healer was kicked..

This is a personal stance of mine - but I prefer not to vote kick someone if they are genuinely trying but just failing to perform. Especially if it's just a dungeon.
Three attempts is probably some people's limit here, but all content in this game aside from Ex primals and Savage should really be able to be cleared regardless of skill level.

I also feel like the final boss in the Vault is actually harder to heal than a lot of the Expert dungeons we have seen of late.. Heh

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Originally Posted by Alex_LoneWolf

I’m not attempting to ridicule the Mentors who are out there and who are trying to get through Lv. 60 content with what I’m saying, but as a caster DPS, I think DPS is just not something that should be a factor when clearing content with new people.

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For me, both at a mentor and as a fellow player, I have a bit of a struggle with the term "new player" when it comes to level 60 (or actually even past level 50) content - you might be new to the dungeon/trial and if there are mechanics to be explained, I'll gladly do that. If you are a bit slow with pulls as tank, I wont mind. If you're only healing as healer, even if that means a lot of downtime, I wont say a word. If you fail mechanics you're seeing for the first time - no problem!

However - after well over 50 hours of playing this game (and that should be about what it takes to reach HW) you cant use the "I'm new" excuse for everything anymore - you should be expected to know
1) How to play your class (might have been the case for the OP, but for the sake of completion - a bard not using WM? A BLM using the level 50 rotation in Hullbreaker HM? A tank not holding aggro in the Vault? - No, sorry, you're not "new" anymore, you had plenty of time to learn. In a solo-game you wouldnt have made it past the third boss if you dont learn how to play the game and improve your skill - but here you have three other people picking up your slack...)
2) Which kind of gear to wear - also something you should have learned by now. There are PLENTY of options to get some better gear without to much effort.

...and again - its a sign of disrespect to make your way into a dungeon without being actually prepared for it - and by that I dont mean "Go and watch a video". You're very welcome to run a dungeon blind (with me) - if you ask to run it blind, I wont say a word about mechanics and let you figure it out on your own! :D
And IF you bought the wrong gear or didnt had the time to upgrade I'd say you might be better off to be vocal about - acknowlegde that you know its not great but explain that you'd really like to see the story right now so you hope they wont mind. Communication can be key here! (and looking at OPs reactions here... they could work on their key, I'd say)

I've done Sohr Khai with low dps before. I just supplemented DPS as a healer and we made it through just fine. It's definitely doable. No real reason to kick someone, especially in dungeons, unless they've caused a wipe more than once. Being impatient or dps being slow isn't really a legitimate reason imo, especially if you queued through DF. Work with what you've got or queue with friends.

Its interesting to see what a mentor should do in the opinion of some people. We are here to help out new players, those that are starting the game and need help. We are not here to carry all new bonus people to the end of the instance. If someone is lvl 60 I dont see them as new. I will give an explanation about the boss mechanics but I will not go there and look if the players does something wrong with their rotation. I also carried players through dungeons that had no dps checks with them only using one attack as a monk...(I cried and facepalmed a lot inside of me). But not everyone will be so patient. And it was already said by the GM that a difference in play style is a legitimate reason to kick someone.

Sohr Khai does have some soft enrages at the bosses. If the other DD was also only okayish in their dps than this might mean that they wont even defeat the final boss. Well and if one of the others see that the OP does not even wear gear that are good for their job, well its kinda their own fault too. The dungeons are not limited, using maybe one or two weeks to gear up before going into it again would not mean that they will lose the chance to finish it.

@Altena: I am mostly a person that tries to give people a chance too. But the endboss of the vault is a healer check. If the others in your party managed to avoid a lot of attacks and you still wiped because the healer did not heal fast enough than this shows that they are not ready yet. Giving them three chances to finish him is already quite patient these days..sadly there are often people that want to vote kick someone after only one wipe. But if he/she is not good enough to heal through it than its sadly the best to kick them. There are the other people in the party that wants to finish the dungeon. Keeping someone in the group even though that person is the reason for the wipe and it will not get better is kinda a waste of time for all the others. I mean if this is a dps check and one person in the group is holding everyone back because they want to play ice mage and thus they wont have enough dps to finish the boss it would be kinda bad for the rest if you let that person still stick with you because in that situation you will not finish the dungeon and thus you wasted all the time which could have been easily saved by kicking the person. (And really the person will also not get better because they will be carried through the content..if they are kicked often enough maybe they will start to finally learn how to at least play their job)

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

I've done Sohr Khai with low dps before. I just supplemented DPS as a healer and we made it through just fine. It's definitely doable. No real reason to kick someone, especially in dungeons, unless they've caused a wipe more than once. Being impatient or dps being slow isn't really a legitimate reason imo, especially if you queued through DF. Work with what you've got or queue with friends.

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If the rest of the party is good enough to cover the slack of someone else than they might be able to finish the dungeon. But in the end that person still got carried through content thanks to the rest working harder. And about your sentence with going with friends. Well the same can be said in reverse too. If you dont want to put in some work, are barely past the ilvl or are just not good with the game, you can just queue with your friends. And in content that has a harsh dps check and cant be cleared thanks to some hitting only auto attack..well low dps is a reason to kick.

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

I've done Sohr Khai with low dps before. I just supplemented DPS as a healer and we made it through just fine. It's definitely doable. No real reason to kick someone, especially in dungeons, unless they've caused a wipe more than once. Being impatient or dps being slow isn't really a legitimate reason imo, especially if you queued through DF. Work with what you've got or queue with friends.

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Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

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See that's the problem, as a DPS you should try to push yourself more. At the end of the day there is many more that can replace you fast. Had a real bad WAR tank the other day. They sat on 5 stacks in defiance (must of needed the parry :P) never used any cool downs died on first big pull. Then we got to the first boss and he changed to deliverance and sat on 5 stacks.

I was running the dungeon with 2 friends the tank was a random. The healer was in my ear on Discord saying please kick them as she had never healed and was struggling a little with all the damage they were taking. Me and the other dps was just laughing whilst replying nah you got to learn to heal the crappy tanks too.

We eventually kicked just before the second boss as a friend came on who could tank. We were on the 4th wipe at this point. Once new tank joined we had no problems.

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I lol'd at this.. I hope you got 3 commendations for that response alone.

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I got two :P

Also people only start checking dps or gear when the run is going to hell. So OP is defo not giving all the facts.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

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Not "legitimate," because there really is no reason to allow such coddling, but if the "low DPS" becomes "just enough DPS," then it doesn't matter. People tend to only care when wipes start happening, for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

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It isnt - the problem with that is though: the first two are obvious.Bad DPS isnt - unless you're using a parser and since thats not allowed (specially not to tell someone "Hey, you suck!") its difficult to detect it. I remember some posts in this very thread being like "But how do you know they werent dealing enough damage?" and "If they were clearing, they were obviously doing fine!"
Pinpointing bad DPS is harder than pinpointing than healer/tanks - there are always at least two of them so one can carry the other one (and if the healer and tank are trying to throw in some dps too...).
Its also not to obvious to themself - if a tank is losing hate, they can see that. If a healer is looking at a corpse, its obvious they failed.
But DPS? Whats 10, 20, 30 seconds more on a pull?

No one likes being told "Hey, you need to learn how to play this class!" no matter how nice that might be worded - but after an obvious fail/mistake its harder to just ignore that. A DPS? Could have always been the other persons fault or whatever... the game doesnt show low DPS, so whats your ground to prove they were doing badly...

So yeah, while that double standard is sh*t and shouldnt exists, it has to do with bad feedback on that part

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Also people only start checking dps or gear when the run is going to hell. So OP is defo not giving all the facts.

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Nah, I do that most of the time when I'm tanking - to see how much I can pull. Granted, I'm normally with a super-awesome BLM friend, so the second DPS doesnt matter to much. But I will look at the healers gear to get an idea how much I can pull.

Also: Where can I order such a table? ;D I'd like a morbol one to go with the little chair we're having!

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Not "legitimate," because there really is no reason to allow such coddling, but if the "low DPS" becomes "just enough DPS," then it doesn't matter. People tend to only care when wipes start happening, for some reason.

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Basically:
Tank dies > Healer's fault
Healer dies > Tank's and healer's fault
Dps pulls aggro and dies > Healer's and Tank's fault
DPS gets hit by avoidable AOE's > Healers fault
Mobs not dying fast enough > Healer should be dealing damage and tank should be in dps stance.

Healers and tanks should always strive to do more as otherwise they are just lazy and should be replaced.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Basically:
Tank dies > Healer's fault
Healer dies > Tank's and healer's fault
Dps pulls aggro and dies > Healer's and Tank's fault
DPS gets hit by avoidable AOE's > Healers fault
Mobs not dying fast enough > Healer should be dealing damage and tank should be in dps stance.

Healers and tanks should always strive to do more as otherwise they are just lazy and should be replaced.

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I like my one from WoW more:

Tank dies, healer's fault.
Healer dies, tank's fault.
DPS dies, he probably did something stupid and deserved it.

;)

After reading through the entire threads I came to conclusion that its the baddies that defending the op and calling out mentor, and saying there is no way for op to gear up if they are kick from story, while theres been multiple post advancing different methods of gearing up fast.

I skimmed through this thread and, since there hasn't been any update from the OP, I have doubts this will make any kind of change in the direction this is going. Still, my comment to this:

1. Regarding mentors: Given this is a one-sided story, there's only so much to go off here. I wouldn't say the kick wasn't "without warning". Low dps was mentioned. If I was in your position, I would probably reflect on this commentary and check myself before attempting again. To say this happened twice in a row would definitely be a sign something might be up with either me or the other dps. That being said, the mentors would have done better to either point out the OP specifically for gearing advice prior to the vote kick or the OP's skill usage/rotation, if possible.

2. Regarding OP's item level and gear pieces: First, the dungeon does not just spit out party members if something is going wrong. Having "adequate" item level for the dungeon is fine, however it is, as with all group content, up to the other 3 people of the party to form their standards and take action if the fourth isn't up to those standards. I'm not saying the standards are okay or not; it's just important to recognize that even if your gear allows you to participate, you actually need to impress the others you're partying with.

So, to the OP, you DO need to think of dungeons in terms of meeting your party's judgment, as bad as that may sound. With the pieces you had, you have room for improvement: as point out before, you can replace the ilvl 150 pieces with gear obtained with Centurio Seals from killing hunt targets. The adequacy of your overall item level or skill means little to random people that examine you and sense something off about your accessories, as bad as that may sound. The Centuro seal pieces are very cheap and certainly more than adequate for the dungeon. Taking some time to obtain Invigorate and Blood for Blood from lancer would also be helpful, especially for bard. I'm not entirely sure about the level of "casual" you consider yourself, but picking up all 3 hunt pages for the day, and making a roundtrip through the Heavensward areas gives you 115 seals, if I remember right, if you pick off every single target from the pages. Add 100 if you happen to stumble across or shout for help in locating the weekly elite hunt. Your other option, if you just HAVE to get Sohr Kai done with what you have now, is to party up with people that understand the gear you have (or could help you improve) to run it.

3. Regarding the forum response/OP's attitude: I've known the community enough to have a certain level of cynicism towards the game and its playerbase, and the OP needs to recognize that despite all the less-than-favorable responses, that there IS advice that can picked out from the bickering. Of course, the OP's attitude is also troubling, but is it truly necessary to drop down to that level in return? Hopefully, I've provided enough "meat" in my response without the "salt" to get through to the OP, but if not, please try to refrain from the canned, tired labels and consider if you're truly providing feedback to the OP (or the related discussion of mentors and dungeon item level requirements) or just making pointless commentary about the game and the playerbase in general.

While this may sound a bit harsh there are a lot of good mentors that are misunderstood. Yes there are some that really don't help but most I think get the bad rep for being honest and blunt about what is going on. Some people may not agree, lets face it some of this new generation is the Cup Cake generation. If your not sure what that is here is a simple over view. Some players are spoiled and want everything handed to them. I've had a few runs were trough tooth and nail players refuse to communicate and go afk on their own, they complain of over pulls. Note this is not as in groups but as in one group that links. I am a very patient person and even in raids were people rage quit I ask other members of my FC, LS's, to help for new people. Seriously players need to start putting some effort. While society wants to give everyone a trophy for participating, at least I'm glad games stay honest and fair. Party gets a wipe? guess what that means you lost. Completed duty? congratulations you won. People need to stop blaming Mentors for their short comings. If your one of those ASK FOR ADVICE. It's ok Mentors are willing to help just please for the love of the twelve put some effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Reaperking386

It is unfortunate, but there is really nothing you can do about it. Maybe one day you can report mentors and they can revoke their crowns for their abuse of the vote kick button.

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Being a mentor does not protect someone from being punished by a GM. If they kicking you out for low dps they most likely using a parser and using a parser to grief/kick someone out of a party is reportable to a GM, just like any other player.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Being a mentor does not protect someone from being punished by a GM. If they kicking you out for low dps they most likely using a parser and using a parser to grief/kick someone out of a party is reportable to a GM, just like any other player.

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Yes but they have to actually say they were parsing or post a DPS number, just saying dps is low doesnt denote using a parser. Its pretty obvious when something that should die in 2 minutes takes 5.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Being a mentor does not protect someone from being punished by a GM. If they kicking you out for low dps they most likely using a parser and using a parser to grief/kick someone out of a party is reportable to a GM, just like any other player.

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You can actually see when dps is low you don't need a parser. You can also get a general idea who once you start to look for it. A few ways to tell this is by the speed a mobs hp bar drops, comparing two dps and the speed of their mobs hp drop(As most don't target same mob), Watching what debuffs are being placed on a mob i.e no venom bite or windbite or seeing them on every so often, mage in the party with bard and no foe's, tp bar empty and seeing it not go back up with a tp ability being used, using songs that are not needed during the fight, other peoples tp bars empty and bard not casting paeon, checking their classes and seeing no access to certain actions beneficial to their class.

Yes this is eyeballing but players were doing this way before parsers were available. Parsers just made it easier for people to spot.

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Originally Posted by SundayTrash

After reading through the entire threads I came to conclusion that its the baddies that defending the op and calling out mentor, and saying there is no way for op to gear up if they are kick from story, while theres been multiple post advancing different methods of gearing up fast.

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Those "baddies" also suggested multiple other ways to gear up outside of the dungeon. I personally think people are too stuck on this mentor kick. If we want a better community replace "mentor" with "player" and we can start removing the stigma and call people out for being good/bad respectively. In this scenario there is now way to know who vote kicked. Secondly the whole "they aren't new" foaming at the mouth reaction. They said they were new at the beginning of the dungeon. In that scenario I would assume they were talking about the dungeon.

And I am defending them, as a community that wants to have fun playing this game. Being intolerant of someone not being optimal because (here is the kicker) being new to the game and not knowing every way to gear up fast. You can call me a baddie, but I enjoy playing this game and I teach people all the time. I give people suggestions and am patient when there is low dps. I teach people in my FC, LS and friends and they pass along those lessons to others. If you don't have the patience to deal with some people in DF don't que and do something else to blow off steam. People are learning, I know I was not the best when I started (first mmo) but I learned asked and got better.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

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Well did this mentor do what they suppose to do and try to teach or coach the person how to be better? Looks like from OP post is the mentor thought their dps was too low and instead of doing what they suppose to do and guide someone how to be better they just kicked them without even saying anything.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well did this mentor do what they suppose to do and try to teach or coach the person how to be better? Looks like from OP post is the mentor thought their dps was too low and instead of doing what they suppose to do and guide someone how to be better they just kicked them without even saying anything.

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At lvl 60 in Sohr Kai we shouldn't HAVE to teach players their jobs. ARF, sure, Neverreap and Fractal, sure, beyond that? No. This person has played over 160 hours, they should understand their job basics at this point.

If i had 160 hours in any other game and still didnt know how to play, I'd be laughed at. Here? We coddle them and tell them its ok.

If you get to Sohr Khai, a level 60 dungeon, which is most of the way through Heavensward patch content, is it my responsibility to explicitly tell a player that they should get all their most important Cross class skills (invigorate bare minimum, blood for blood optimally), that they shouldn't wear FENDING accessories as an archer, and that they should have replaced white ilevel 150 gear by running Void Ark a couple times?

It's not a mentor's job to educate you on every aspect of the game. It's a mentor's job to serve as a resource and do their job well. That's what we agree to when we sign up.

OP hasn't posted the actual exchanges from their dungeons. They've only said they were kicked twice, and there were mentors in the party. Y'all are on a witchhunt.

Sometimes people DO need to be told about cross-class skills. My SMN wouldn't have Swiftcast if a now-friend hadn't told me I needed it. My BRD doesn't have Invigorate OR Blood for Blood. I didn't know I absolutely NEEDED them. The game makes them seem optional, unless there's just something that I completely missed saying you need them. Now that I know, though, I will work on getting LNC up for those skills. So yes, it's possible to get to 60 and not know that cross-class skills are essential.

If people still need advice on what acc to wear it's not a mentors problem if you get kicked. A mentor can recommend to switch even to lower gear, job based as long as it's not too low. Please stop blaming Mentors for your short comings. If your a level 60 you should min know what your stats should be based on and have min some cross class. If you chose not to, why should someone who has put in the effort feel cheated out and leave? if you plan to do a dungeon or anything min you should have common sense to go in with gear that benefits your job, know your jobs skills, use them after cool downs, and most importantly go in with an open mind. If you want to be carried then use your FC for assistance. Even then most FC are more brutal and will probably laugh or kick you. That should hopefully ring a bell that your doing something wrong. We mentors want to help, but you must help your self.

@Amariel34, I can count on one hand the number of times I've provided advice about abilities or Cross class skills when it's been well received and I've been thanked for providing the information. Generally the responses to "you might want to level X in order to get Y Cross class skill" range from being completely ignored to outright snide.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

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Reason I say this is I died in a dungeon whilst having craft mentor on and I got comments like "lol your a mentor and you died" to which I replied "It says craft mentor, so unless you want one of these mobs turned into a table then get on with the dungeon"

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Absolutely perfect comeback!

That made the entire thread worth the read.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

At lvl 60 in Sohr Kai we shouldn't HAVE to teach players their jobs. ARF, sure, Neverreap and Fractal, sure, beyond that? No. This person has played over 160 hours, they should understand their job basics at this point.

If i had 160 hours in any other game and still didnt know how to play, I'd be laughed at. Here? We coddle them and tell them its ok.

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Don't really matter how long person has played for the "you are bad bye /kick" is not what mentor is suppose to be. At that point person just using mentor for the title and little crown by their name. If mentor gives advice or what not it ignored or person rude about it then by all means kick the person. But don't sit there and act like judge, jury and executioner, without even waiting to see what type of response you going to get from them.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Don't really matter how long person has played for the "you are bad bye /kick" is not what mentor is suppose to be. At that point person just using mentor for the title and little crown by their name. If mentor gives advice or what not it ignored or person rude about it then by all means kick the person. But don't sit there and act like judge, jury and executioner, without even waiting to see what type of response you going to get from them.

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We don't even know if the mentor initiated the kick.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

@Amariel34, I can count on one hand the number of times I've provided advice about abilities or Cross class skills when it's been well received and I've been thanked for providing the information. Generally the responses to "you might want to level X in order to get Y Cross class skill" range from being completely ignored to outright snide.

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This is so accurate it's pathetic. Friends of mine and I have offered to help people in our LS get different cross class skills, and we're met with ridiculous amounts of resistance...

"I don't need that, I get along just fine."
"I play this game to have fun."
"I'm not an elitist try-hard."
"Why? I don't do Savage/Extremes?"
"I don't like how X class plays, and I don't want to waste time on something I don't find fun."

...Are the usual responses.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

@Amariel34, I can count on one hand the number of times I've provided advice about abilities or Cross class skills when it's been well received and I've been thanked for providing the information. Generally the responses to "you might want to level X in order to get Y Cross class skill" range from being completely ignored to outright snide.

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From my experience, advice is often unwanted so if you don't want to get snide responses then add a phrase before you give any form of advice -
"Hey xxx, would you like a few pointers?"

Most that actually want advice will say something like "pointers are nice".. That's when you give your advice.

Just saying "Hey xxx, you should do this" can give the impression of passive aggression to some people. Most people don't like getting called out on something they are doing wrong. Just ask if they would like your advice before giving it to them.

If you don't get a response or are answered with resistance, than just leave it at that. You can't help everyone that needs it unfortunately, and it's not all on the mentor's back - the newbie has to be willing to learn.

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Originally Posted by Altena

"Hey xxx, would you like a few pointers?"

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From my experiences usually is responded to with...

"No"

I just try to add "Hey so&so just a quick tip" to the front and a :) on the end so they know its well intended, then if they get hostile or just stay quiet and do nothing different that's the reason they get the boot

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

From my experiences usually is responded to with...

"No"

I just try to add "Hey so&so just a quick tip" to the front and a :) on the end so they know its well intended, then if they get hostile or just stay quiet and do nothing different that's the reason they get the boot

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If they say "No" then leave it at that.

You can't force advice onto someone and expect them to actually hear it.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

You ever tried giving any advice to many people in DF? I doubt it.

Advice just generally isn't take onboard no matter how it is presented so there is just no point doing it.

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Many, many times, both with and without the crown. "Hey, <3>, I know the job you're playing fairly well. If it's not a problem, would you like a couple tips?"

9/10 times I get, "go ahead", and continue with a few pieces of advice. After the run, I even stay behind so I can answer any questions they may have.

Perhaps you should reconsider how you offer said advice?

Course, I'm also pretty talkative normally and tend to be playfully snarky and playful, so might have to do with how you present yourself? People seem to prefer listening to a cheerful person rather than a dour grimfaced misery guts!

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Originally Posted by Crysten

Healers who let the party die? Bad.
Tanks that can't hold hate? Bad.
DPS that do low DPS? What's wrong with that?Stop being an elitist!

Can someone honestly give me a legitimate reason why the above mentality is acceptable and in any way fair to those DPS who actually can do their jobs well?

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It's funny because this is so true. I think it is because DPS are viewed as the job with the least amount of responsibility, so it makes it okay. When in fact, they are just as important as the other 2 roles. They are also more commonly played and paired with more of their roles in duties, possibly giving them the feeling that they can hide low DPS?

Well..... Ok now I am that mentor as described by OP. I just ran the vault wiped on first boss so I then continued to explain the mechanics for that boss and all others during the run. The tank listened and so did one of the dps, now as for the other dps he hit every mechanic over and over again. This caused me to have to keep raising his ass all the time, waste my mp and struggle to focus on the tank.

Now after the 4th wipe on the last boss and getting hit hard, as two of the targets on the dps check wasn't killed. I decided enough was enough I got to the stage on all 4 of those runs that I literally had no mp left and no way to get it back.

In the end we got a replacement dps killed it straight away(btw I commenced vote kick), no one died and finished the fight with 7k mp left. During the dps check(add phase whatever u want to call it) I also dpsed as healer on all 5 runs. This guy also was wearing ilvl 55 gear which I had to check everyone's gear after the first two wipes.

Now mentors should be patient but we do have limits....

Now some may disagree which is fine. But end of the day it is not fair on the others who are trying their best and it's not fair on the healer as it makes them look bad.