Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

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Originally Posted by GraumSenpai

If we were to take all risk away from healers, then I guess we should also give all tanks a passive 20% damage reduction with no effect on damage dealt, and give all DPS a 10% damage increase with no increased damage recieved... because you know, we wouldnt want people to think about their choices, we just want them to put their face on their keyboard, and just hit buttons.

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Wouldn't this just give an excuse to make fights harder?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Wouldn't this just give an excuse to make fights harder?

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That would be the first step, yes. Making heals more reasonable in line would be another. I've always wondered why people find it important their strongest heal recovers 2/3 of a tanks HP on crit.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be the first step, yes. Making heals more reasonable in line would be another. I've always wondered why people find it important their strongest heal recovers 2/3 of a tanks HP on crit.

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Its more like half when buffed (14k Benefic II's when in Noct) ;c Lustrates (for example) usually crit for about 1/3 (11k) though.

Are you sure...? I've gotten 18K plus Cure 2's on my sword Oath pld, and I find it hard to imagine I270weapons healing only 3K more than my I230 whm, when with Divine Seal up I've crit for 14K+ using the Padjali staff.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

2. Incoming damage is not only increased in potency to "balance" the strength of existing healing abilities, but the frequency of hits is increased while mobs use more abilities that randomly damage party members other than the tank. This rewards twitch healing skills and smart resource management, but I don't think this game and most of its healer base are well-suited to this. Encounters are obviously designed so that anyone can succeed if they learn the patterns and choreography. If some healers think they have it bad now with the occasional pushback from players who perceive them as slacking because they wait around to heal, imagine the outcry when they have to heal multiple targets nonstop and do it while managing aggro and MP. This is not going to happen.

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Personally I'd enjoy such a healing predicament!

Someone's going to be unhappy no matter what.

This is mostly a retread of earlier discussion, but consider a couple of scenarios and their possible outcomes:

1. Heal potency is decreased while content design stays roughly the same = players have to heal more for the same benefit; they necessarily have less time to DPS because they need to cast more heals to keep up, but their playstyle has become more repetitive, not more engaging or rewarding of skill. This is similar to what happens if incoming damage is increased while heals stay the same.

2. Incoming damage is not only increased in potency to "balance" the strength of existing healing abilities, but the frequency of hits is increased while mobs use more abilities that randomly damage party members other than the tank. This rewards twitch healing skills and smart resource management, but I don't think this game and most of its healer base are well-suited to this. Encounters are obviously designed so that anyone can succeed if they learn the patterns and choreography. If some healers think they have it bad now with the occasional pushback from players who perceive them as slacking because they wait around to heal, imagine the outcry when they have to heal multiple targets nonstop and do it while managing aggro and MP. This is not going to happen.

18K sounds right with Divine Seal + Conv on PLD + Crit for i230. I do 15K crits with Divine Seal on i244 WHM w/ Hyperconductive Relic weapon. Conv would push that to 19.5K.

My Noct AST crits 12.5K with the same gear setup. That would be about half the HP of my non-Defiance i230 WAR w/ Sophia Axe (25,246 HP w/ not Vit party bonus).

[EDIT] Rawr's 14K crit would be less than 1/2 the HP of my current Savage tier tanks (DRK / PLD = ~32K, WAR = 33.7K w/o Defiance)

I feel There's better ways to balance risk vs reward than having enemies tickle players with feather dusters.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be the first step, yes. Making heals more reasonable in line would be another. I've always wondered why people find it important their strongest heal recovers 2/3 of a tanks HP on crit.

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Because good healers don't heal before tanks drop to a certain value anyway.
And switching CS off, Regen+Tetra(crit) lets you switch back to CS again with one less heal GCD. Also crit best dps off-stat (after acc).

Since people seem to want to keep this thread alive for whatever reason I'll just give my opinion on the matter. DPS as a healer is Vital. Take away the option to DPS and you get slower runs and very angry people. And OP's first post, troll that he likely is, doesn't make any factual points.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

Now if cleric stance is disabled in PvE dungeons/raids (like in PvP), the issue of people complaining you are not dpsing enough will dissipate, possibly.

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No they won't. What will happen, besides making a lot of healer mains very angry, is you make running content slower. With your changes, getting a random party of 4 healers in PotD past floor 30 would be impossible to clear.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

Yes you can still dps, but just not as much.

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"Not as much", he says while not actually showing the difference. As we go higher in levels, the DPS gap between Non-Cleric and Cleric increases drastically. Depending on how good your weapon and gear is, the more DPS Cleric gives you. Without Cleric Stance, my Stone III's hit on average for 380-410. Once I put Cleric Stance on the average changes to 2700-2950. That means that using Cleric Stance increased my DPS by over 700%. Trying to DPS without Cleric Stance on is a waste of MP.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

...I feel like in cleric stance, I can dps more than the casual dps, which means I am fulfilling two roles, healer AND dps. Which is not the intention, I believe.

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That's the DPS's fault, not the healers.

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Originally Posted by platorepublic

This is only in the standpoint of game design,

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I REPEAT, STOP FEEDING THE GODDAMN TROLL AND HIS ZERO-DPS HEALER 'FANTASY'.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Personally I'd enjoy such a healing predicament!

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Probably a little bit of yes and a little bit of no.

I played a game like that for years, where even in some PvE farming you needed to be able to react very quickly and be on top of your cooldowns and resources.

The upside is that you technically almost always have something to do as a "healer." You are also among the few and the proud if you are good, because most players don't want the chronic work and responsibility.

The downside is that other roles get to roll their faces across the keyboard because there are few patterns to observe and few practical ways for them to avoid damage, so they pew-pew knowing that it's entirely up to the healer to keep them alive.

Again, if players can't handle stance-dancing in choreographed fights, there's no way they will tolerate that model.

I see it the other way, actually. I'm not sure the current dps obsessed healer corps would want that level of responsibility because it would involve less time for them to contribute to the deeps, but I can think of quite a few people that would jump ship immediately because that's the kind of action they enjoy. I imagine that the people that can't handle stance dancing, whether it's because they don't enjoy it or find it mind numbingly boring, would be able to handle the pressure just fine. It would also in turn cause tanks to play more defensively as well, while making mitigation and recovery utilities like Rend Mind and Mantra more important as well.

With the current way the game is designed there is no reason for Cleric Stance to be disabled in dungeons. If that were to be the case, we'd have a large amount of time where we, as healers, don't contribute to the fight. In Heavensward, for example, they'd have to dramatically lower the healing numbers or up the damage taken by players, neither of which are ideal solutions if you wanted healers to stick to healing. Many healers, myself included, don't raid but when I do my roulettes, if I have some downtime during fights I'm going to DoT and Malefic/Gravity when its safe to do so. Othewise, I'm spending 80% of the time doing nothing. This is how the current system is designed.

If the idea of making Cleric Stance outside of group content impossible to be used is implemented, you'd have to change the way battles are done in group content. There's simply not enough damage being applied for this to be the case at this current time.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I see it the other way, actually. I'm not sure the current dps obsessed healer corps would want that level of responsibility because it would involve less time for them to contribute to the deeps, but I can think of quite a few people that would jump ship immediately because that's the kind of action they enjoy. I imagine that the people that can't handle stance dancing, whether it's because they don't enjoy it or find it mind numbingly boring, would be able to handle the pressure just fine. It would also in turn cause tanks to play more defensively as well, while making mitigation and recovery utilities like Rend Mind and Mantra more important as well.

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What you say is possible. I do imagine that there are players out there who refuse to DPS on principle (which is silly and selfish, but beside the point) who might be all for whack-a-mole healing gameplay.

I won't lie and say that it isn't fun sometimes, because it can create some very exciting encounters. On the other hand it can become tiresome, as I said, when you end up being the babysitter-in-chief because almost all of the responsibility for mitigating and healing party-wide damage falls to you (unlike now, where reasonable players other than the tank avoid almost all of the damage in any given encounter except for very specific mechanics that can be seen coming a mile away).

Unfortunately I am pessimistic about this, so I rather imagine that the increased expectation of good reflexes and quick thinking would be a turn-off to many. Players who are good at memorization and planning ahead (i.e. what this game has rewarded them for) but who have poor twitch ability wouldn't be pleased with this turn of events, and players who had difficulty with stance dancing from a technical standpoint would be utterly left in the dust.

And then you have the people that dps as healers out of obligation, not because they actually enjoy the play style. As a healer, while I do it out of said obligation I hate dpsing as one, it causes me to zone out and peruse tvtropes so I don't fall asleep out of boredom, because it's not really making my job as a healer any easier, I'm just putting in numbers that by rights the tanks and dps should be fully capable of putting up without my assistance. As a healer, what I signed up for was twitch healing reflexes, mana management, and planning ahead. Instead what I got was a glorified dps with the simplest and most bare bones rotation.

As a tank? I feel the benefits of dps stance tanking and balancing defense with offense. As a healer? I resent my party because they need my crutch dps since they can't manage appropriate numbers on their own.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a tank? I feel the benefits of dps stance tanking and balancing defense with offense. As a healer? I resent my party because they need my crutch dps since they can't manage appropriate numbers on their own.

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I'm curious as to why you feel differently about stance-dancing on healer vs. stance-dancing on tank when the philosophy and the benefit to the party are extremely similar.

Also, why the assumption that a healer pulling their full weight is serving as a crutch to their party? More DPS almost always means more time saved by all. Personally I don't buy into the notion that healer is the only role to get a 100% exemption from doing DPS as they are able.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Personally I don't buy into the notion that healer is the only role to get a 100% exemption from doing DPS as they are able.

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Yeah, why does a tank have to maximize their DPS but a healer doesn't? A tank could get away with just spamming their enmity combo/aoe and they'd hold hate. Why do they have to bother doing damage if the healer doesn't?

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I'm curious as to why you feel differently about stance-dancing on healer vs. stance-dancing on tank when the philosophy and the benefit to the party are extremely similar.

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As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless, and most importantly, aggressive tanking isn't a play style that's forced on me by the community. Besides, it feels pretty badass to be in SwO/no grit and have tank busters shave off peanuts! As a healer though? I feel more like I'm being punished by the community when I don't struggle to keep people alive because then I have to adapt a play style that's completely boring for me.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?.

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Saving MP is only relevant if you would've otherwise run out, and there's no fight so healer intense that you'll be running MP starved if you have any degree of mana management.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Not to mention using Holy to prevent enemies from attacking and Shadowflare to slow them down... Doing DPS as a healer is actually a really effective way to prevent your party from being hurt.

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Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

The only time healer dps can mitigate damage is in the case of ultimates, as in primal fights.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless.

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And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?
The way I see it is if the thing is dead it can't hurt anyone, so me dealing 3000 damage could save me a cure or two, or save someone from dying.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

And doesn't all dps as a healer feed back into required healing?
The way I see it is if the thing is dead it can't hurt anyone, so me dealing 3000 damage could save me a cure or two, or save someone from dying.

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Not to mention using Holy to prevent enemies from attacking and Shadowflare to slow them down... Doing DPS as a healer is actually a really effective way to prevent your party from being hurt.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

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Holy's AoE Stun is incredibly relevant in all dungeons and raids it can be used, since it can stun everything for 10 seconds during which no one needs any healing. That said, as VanilleFang posted earlier, healer DPS prevents group from being damaged simply by making stuff die faster - and it can also increase DPS of other party members.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

As a tank, any and all dps feeds back into enmity regardless, and most importantly, aggressive tanking isn't a play style that's forced on me by the community. Besides, it feels pretty badass to be in SwO/no grit and have tank busters shave off peanuts! As a healer though? I feel more like I'm being punished by the community when I don't struggle to keep people alive because then I have to adapt a play style that's completely boring for me.

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What I'm reading from this is "I use my full tank kit because I personally enjoy it, and I grudgingly use my full healer kit only because I'm concerned that I will be perceived as lazy if I stand around doing nothing." It's not as if you need to maximize your DPS opportunities as tank to perform the essential function of the role, but it does make you a better tank and a better player. Likewise, being an active healer who uses their full kit makes you better in the role and a better player. You not liking how the healer role works in this game is a different issue.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Saving MP is only relevant if you would've otherwise run out, and there's no fight so healer intense that you'll be running MP starved if you have any degree of mana management.

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I generally agree with you here. Personally I don't see MP as the issue, though technically I suppose it is another metric we can measure. From my perspective time is the more relevant resource in the majority of situations since most of us spend quite a bit of play time repeating familiar scenarios, and no one wants to spend more time in repetition than what's needed to accomplish the goal. This is why I appreciate good tanks for stance dancing and good healers for doing the same rather than deciding to Netflix-and-Chill while the party manages not to stand in bad circles.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Holy's AoE stun is irrelevant outside of faceroll content, where monsters already tickle tanks rather than be an actual threat, and Shadow flare 's 5% slow mitigates less damage than RoH. I fell off my seat laughing at people trying to sell those as relevant mitigation, when Everything's stun/slow immune in relevant content, and Shadow flare is useless as mitigation because nothing survives long enough to actually benefit from the measly 5% slow.

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Holy's AoE stun is still relevant mitigation for massive pulls for close-to-ilvl dungeon content, which most players spend a lot of time doing for tomes etc. Shadow Flare, on the other hand, is utter crap as mitigation, I agree. However, I don't position healer DPS as a mitigation argument; for me it's simply common sense that, if you have nothing else to do, you attack the mobs.

I would actually be okay with more reactionary healing caused by random damage befalling random party members, but I wouldn't be okay if that forced me to heal so many times during a fight that Cleric Stance was impossible to use, even with two healers. On the contrary, if the random damage was scattered in sufficient amounts throughout fights it would require both healers to communicate further and synergize their use of CS together, which would be amazing tbh.

Alas, not something that will happen lmao

That would be nice, especially if they extended the penalty for stepping into CS. Perhaps a 20-30 second time span penalty as a cross classed skill, 15(or no CD, but resource cost) with trait for WHM? 5 seconds is waaaaaaaaaaay too generous. Warrior gets a 10 second lock out, PLD and DRK have to sacrifice resources. All healers get a pretty gentle swat on the wrists when it comes to sacrificing their primary role, while tanks have to sacrifice a fair bit more.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be nice, especially if they extended the penalty for stepping into CS. Perhaps a 20-30 second time span penalty as a cross classed skill, 15(or no CD, but resource cost) with trait for WHM? 5 seconds is waaaaaaaaaaay too generous. Warrior gets a 10 second lock out, PLD and DRK have to sacrifice resources. All healers get a pretty gentle swat on the wrists when it comes to sacrificing their primary role, while tanks have to sacrifice a fair bit more.

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I won't touch that first part about CS except to say that you are either trolling for reactions by this point or else truly have such a visceral hatred for healer DPS that you wish to make it viable for no one.

"Sacrificing their primary role?" Healers somehow "sacrifice" their role by contributing DPS? Tanks as well? This argument is such low-hanging fruit that I can't bring myself to go for it. In this case I'll trust that most people will understand the absurdity without having it explicitly pointed out to them.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be nice, especially if they extended the penalty for stepping into CS. Perhaps a 20-30 second time span penalty as a cross classed skill, 15(or no CD, but resource cost) with trait for WHM? 5 seconds is waaaaaaaaaaay too generous. Warrior gets a 10 second lock out, PLD and DRK have to sacrifice resources. All healers get a pretty gentle swat on the wrists when it comes to sacrificing their primary role, while tanks have to sacrifice a fair bit more.

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A tank gives up 20% of their survivability, a healer gives up over 90% of their healing throughput, I'd say it's balanced enough

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Originally Posted by Deathgiver

A tank gives up 20% of their survivability, a healer gives up over 90% of their healing throughput, I'd say it's balanced enough

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They should go ahead and disable defensive CDs while under the effect of DPS stances... THEN it will be balanced. :p Lol jk A tank using a CD saves me a heal. :]

Support for this seems to lay with those that don't /want/ to dps, so they want an excuse, or not to have it suggested to them to dps in dungeons. Which, IMO, boils down to, you're a lazy player, or you're not very good and so it makes you uncomfortable. If you're lazy, shut up, stop trying to ruin other people's fun. I LOVE dpsing in dungeons as healer, it's not hard, and it makes the run go faster. You want to remove 40% of a jobs abilities in dungeons so you aren't asked to try.... why not give all the dps 1 button, a dps button. And here you go tank, this is your enmity button, it also mitigates. Now everyone only has one button! !! Yaaaaaaay.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be nice, especially if they extended the penalty for stepping into CS. Perhaps a 20-30 second time span penalty as a cross classed skil

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No. Please no. 30 seconds is a massive length of time in an MMO that measures time on 2.5 sec intervals. It CS was any longer than 5 seconds and there was more random damage, then healer DPS through progression would be absolutely impossible to do, and even in farms it would be dangerous and probably not viable. CS and healer DPS should not be punished by the design of the game.

CS is fine as it is. A 10% damage boost in return for a 20% healing potency deficiency while your INT/MID is swapped. I find the arguments on healers being able to DPS more than an equally geared dps a bit moronic. By this logic, we should penalize parties for deciding to have one healer instead of the games stationary two healers per raid.

Give it time for the next expansion and see what will happen. The introduction of the new skills surely has set the bar on how much damage a DPS can do.

When healers start striking 12k-30k damage in one hit, then this would be the time to complain about CS. Do not let other players deter you from the class just because they aren't satisfied with your ability to heal and DPS. DPS helps, its not mandatory. No one can perfect this game initially, no matter how much research you do before hand. Take your own pace to learn your own rotations properly and utilize what is most comfortable to you. A tip in which I wish this server would swallow.

Thunda still making posts with little content outside of "dpsing as a healer is boring so make it so healers can't."

Still haven't seen a decent argument against DPSing as a healer yet from them.

But I like being able to heal and being able to efficiently beat the shit out of things, or yknow...DoT the shit out of things.

Don't take that away from me. ;-; I'd be super sad.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Thunda still making posts with little content outside of "dpsing as a healer is boring so make it so healers can't."

Still haven't seen a decent argument against DPSing as a healer yet from them.

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I feel the only decent argument that anyone can bring up at this juncture is that S-E has stated in a few interviews that healer DPS isn't required to clear content when at the appropriate item level. With that being said, this doesn't mean the developer did not intend for healers to DPS either. The fact they haven't disabled Cleric Stance in any PvE party content implies to me that they are happy with giving healers the option to DPS or not to DPS.

Whether you (not you specifically, just every healer / player in the playerbase as a whole) actually enjoy or despise the current iteration of the healer toolkit is a matter of opinion and should not be spoken as "facts from the development team". Ultimately it's up to the development team to decide if they want to change the current healing meta or if they're happy with how it is in its current incarnation. All we can do on these forums are speak our opinions (hopefully in a well thought out manner) so the devs can take it as feed back to see how they wish to tweak kits in the future.

Exactly Ghishlain. Just because SE doesn't include healer damage when calculating dps checks, does not mean the expect healers to do 0 damage. Saying "it's not something we take into account" is not the same as "it's not intended"

Getting rid of cleric stance in the only content that I do (raids) will make the game too boring for me. :(

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would be nice, especially if they extended the penalty for stepping into CS. Perhaps a 20-30 second time span penalty as a cross classed skill, 15(or no CD, but resource cost) with trait for WHM? 5 seconds is waaaaaaaaaaay too generous. Warrior gets a 10 second lock out, PLD and DRK have to sacrifice resources. All healers get a pretty gentle swat on the wrists when it comes to sacrificing their primary role, while tanks have to sacrifice a fair bit more.

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I hope you fancy dungeon queues upwards of 20-30 minutes. Without Cleric Stance, you'll see a lot of people stop playing Healers. Even those who don't necessarily like DPSing still want CS available because content just isn't hard enough outside Savage.

In easy mode content, both sch and AST can afford 20 seconds plus of cleric stance uptime consistantly, and WHM would have no CD associated with cleric stance at all, besides a small resource cost. You'll forgive me if I don't buy that for even a split second. As far as Savage? Planning exists for a reason, so I legitimately see no issue coming from that side either when one of the healers still spends the majority of the instance sitting pretty in CS while the actual healer handles all the hard work. At worst? You might need to communicate more.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Planning exists for a reason, so I legitimately see no issue coming from that side either when one of the healers still spends the majority of the instance sitting pretty in CS while the actual healer handles all the hard work.

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...so we should implement a longer CD on Cleric Stance and forcibly roll everyone back to this meta? I think it's widely understood now that the concept of main healer vs. DPS off-healer is suboptimal compared to having both healers work together to create DPS windows for each other.

Besides, since when was healing "hard work?" Maybe during progression while few or none of the party members have a firm grasp on mechanics and timing, but let's not dramatize the plight of this "actual healer," who in many cases got to sit outside of CS and do nothing but babysit health bars and maybe call out mechanics. Having both healers be coordinated is a much better way to play, and imposing further restrictions on CS for any healer job certainly wouldn't improve anyone's ability to strategize or, I don't know, enjoy the game.

Thank god SE has selective hearing when it comes to fielding feedback from the community.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

In easy mode content, both sch and AST can afford 20 seconds plus of cleric stance uptime consistantly, and WHM would have no CD associated with cleric stance at all, besides a small resource cost. You'll forgive me if I don't buy that for even a split second. As far as Savage? Planning exists for a reason, so I legitimately see no issue coming from that side either when one of the healers still spends the majority of the instance sitting pretty in CS while the actual healer handles all the hard work. At worst? You might need to communicate more.

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They can afford it, however they will spend a large portion of those 20 seconds literally doing nothing. Even when I pull the entirety of Xelphatol, my SCH friend only has to heal me occasionally. Dark Arts + Abyssal Drain does more than enough. Putting a cooldown like what you're suggesting would essentially force her to front load as much damage as possible because once she clicks off Cleric Stance, she won't be able to go back into it again. At that point, she may as well /sit since I won't be taking nearly enough damage for her to do anything. For Savage, one healer would basically be in Cleric Stance the entire fight. My static's WHM pulls almost 900 DPS in A9S. There's nothing for her to do most of the time. In your scenario, she would be better off healing with Cleric Stance on if our AST needed help than to loss 20 seconds of DPS time.

Like I said, all this would accomplish is significantly reducing the amount of people willing to play healers. If you want to encourage more healing necessity, content itself need to do more damage. The reason people get so miffed over healers refusing to DPS in dungeons is due to them being piss easy. I mean, a Scholar can tank Xelphatol on their own.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They can afford it, however they will spend a large portion of those 20 seconds literally doing nothing.

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If you're sitting in your dps stance for more than one second not attacking, you legitimately have much, much MUCH bigger issues with your play style than a measly 20 second cool down. How exactly would you be doing nothing when the cleric stance cool down starts as soon as you enter it, not leave it? Are you, a healer, legitimately admitting you have no idea how your own skill works?

Cleric stances CD would still start when you enter it, not leave it. Once the cd's up, you pop out, do whatever healing you need to do, then immediately hop back in. How is such a simple concept so impossible to grasp? Especially since it's already been like this. There has never been a cd associated with going from stanceless-stanced, only stanced-stanceless, ever, in this game. I can't see a reason for the cooldown to not be extended.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

If you're sitting in your dps stance for more than one second not attacking, you legitimately have much, much MUCH bigger issues with your play style than a measly 20 second cool down. How exactly would you be doing nothing when the cleric stance cool down starts as soon as you enter it, not leave it? Are you, a healer, legitimately admitting you have no idea how your own skill works?

Cleric stances CD would still start when you enter it, not leave it. Once the cd's up, you pop out, do whatever healing you need to do, then immediately hop back in. How is such a simple concept so impossible to grasp? Especially since it's already been like this. There has never been a cd associated with going from stanceless-stanced, only stanced-stanceless, ever, in this game. I can't see a reason for the cooldown to not be extended.

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And if you only needed to help the main healer for one specific mechanic, you've effectively lost 15+ seconds of DPS. Hence doing nothing. FFXIV works under predictable, scripted burst damage and non-consequential auto attacks otherwise. Anything the main healer cannot mitigate themselves, they require only split second assistance. Your purposal essentially forces the off healer to give up a large portion of their DPS for little to no gain. To offer an example. The AST in my static frequently tells our WHM to DPS and only asks for her help during certain mechanics, when solo healing proves too difficult or unreliable. If Cleric Stance had a cooldown, said WHM would have to turn it off, then basically stand around being useless until the cooldown wore off. Granted, she could still attack, but we all know how big a loss doing anything as a healer while in the wrong stance is. I dance frequently whenever I play healer. With a cooldown, I'd get pretty bored in dungeons having to stand around after healing the tank-- just waiting on Cleric Stance again.

The reason is simple. You're forcing people to do something unnecessarily just to justify not having to DPS yourself.

...So, why can you not pop out of cs, heal, and then go back to dpsing with a 20 second cool down to exit cs? I have no idea what you're even complaining about. There is no stance in the entirety of the game that has a cool down associated with entering it, only exiting it. Do we even play the same game? Seriously. I'm saying potato, and you're arguing onion. You're arguing a problem that doesn't even exist! Enter cleric stance, 20 sec CD during which you cannot exit it, at all. Exit cleric stance, can enter it again as soon as you desire.