Yoshida, The Creator: Savage is the worst tuning ever in an MMO

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

This is fine so long as you replace the tome gear with a equal ilvl set obtainable by whatever is fitting. I personally enjoy min maxing gear and dont want to be shoehorned into wearing only one set because it has the highest ilevel.

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This is another problem altogether and a consequence of really poor secondary stats. Since primary stats are automatically tied to ilvl, it would have been far more interesting to give them less impact that secondary stats.

Previous post updated with ilvl examples ;)

And, for the record, I'd add food and medecine that you could buy with tomestones so that you'd still have a reason to farm them in odd patches, on top of already existing materials and relic items.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This is another problem altogether and a consequence of really poor secondary stats. Since primary stats are automatically tied to ilvl, it would have been far more interesting to give them less impact that secondary stats.

Previous post updated with ilvl examples ;)

And, for the record, I'd add food and medecine that you could buy with tomestones so that you'd still have a reason to farm them in odd patches, on top of already existing materials and relic items.

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The only thing I would change about that is to add an infusion system. The idea is that you find a piece of gear that you really like and feed a higher level piece of gear to it. The lower gear then scales to the same level as the gear you fed to it, while keeping its own attributes.

That way dungeon gear stays relevant as you could possibly find a really good roll, and you have incentive to run the higher content to continually upgrade that gear. Of course this means they need to rework secondaries (again) but they should be doing that anyway

I guess people did not care for my achievement idea. The solution to raiding is simply Normal > Hard > Savage. Until SE is able to make that happen, raiding's scaling and difficulty are always going to be a mixed bag.

If we assume they stick to Normal > Hard, then the achievement system should really be a must. Progress normally like you do in Creator, but to pull off things to get specific achievements in the raid, you need to meet certain higher expectations in skill and gear composition to pull it off. I don't mean the achievement you get at the end for completing it. I mean like what WoW does when you pull off a hard feat you wouldn't normally do in the fight, but get an achievement/reward for doing so.

The achievements can give titles, minions, and mounts. I would even argue that in terms of reward structure, you put some generic looking dungeon gear in Normal mode, then put the actual raid armor set in Hard. Earn the achievement in that raid turn, then the items to let you dye the raid gear be in the chest. It can work if SE makes it fun and it requires very minimal extra work on their end, letting them make something for the midcore scene, and adding that extra topping for the hardcore.

Again, adding an extra difficulty mode is the best solution, but the achievement system would be a great thing to have if SE isn't willing to dish the extra difficulty tier.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

The only thing I would change about that is to add an infusion system. The idea is that you find a piece of gear that you really like and feed a higher level piece of gear to it. The lower gear then scales to the same level as the gear you fed to it, while keeping its own attributes.

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As the secondary are now, this would indeed be useless.

That reminds me of how gear works in Lightning Returns. They all have basic stats, but once you have access to the forge, previous gear can match or even surpass high level gear thanks to good upgrades. Of crouse, the lower the gear, the longer it would take to be full powered.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I guess people did not care for my achievement idea. The solution to raiding is simply Normal > Hard > Savage. Until SE is able to make that happen, raiding's scaling and difficulty are always going to be a mixed bag.

If we assume they stick to Normal > Hard, then the achievement system should really be a must. Progress normally like you do in Creator, but to pull off things to get specific achievements in the raid, you need to meet certain higher expectations in skill and gear composition to pull it off. I don't mean the achievement you get at the end for completing it. I mean like what WoW does when you pull off a hard feat you wouldn't normally do in the fight, but get an achievement/reward for doing so.

The achievements can give titles, minions, and mounts. I would even argue that in terms of reward structure, you put some generic looking dungeon gear in Normal mode, then put the actual raid armor set in Hard. Earn the achievement in that raid turn, then the items to let you dye the raid gear be in the chest. It can work if SE makes it fun and it requires very minimal extra work on their end, letting them make something for the midcore scene, and adding that extra topping for the hardcore.

Again, adding an extra difficulty mode is the best solution, but the achievement system would be a great thing to have if SE isn't willing to dish the extra difficulty tier.

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Would this be anything like what existed in 1.2s dungeons.

for example if you simply completed AV you got an achievement. if you also did extra stuff like complete it without using fruits you got another achievement and if you cleared it in the speedrun time for the extra loot chests you got another?

Think if it like this. A12 is just as hard as everything else. The Player base is getting so much better.

That glass is 1/2 full!

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Would this be anything like what existed in 1.2s dungeons.

for example if you simply completed AV you got an achievement. if you also did extra stuff like complete it without using fruits you got another achievement and if you cleared it in the speedrun time for the extra loot chests you got another?

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Yes similar to that. I think more of WoW's achievement system within raids, but you are in the right ball park.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Yes similar to that. I think more of WoW's achievement system within raids, but you are in the right ball park.

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I'm not sure I'd like to see speedruns rewarded. It already makes some people act like jerks.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

They should just start by creating 3 difficulty modes: Normal - Brutal - Savage for raids, and then i think the raiding scene would improve.

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Just having 3 tiers is unlikely to help if they end up serving unbalanced portions of the population.

In a 2 tier raid scene the population clearing objectives should be something like 50%(NM)/25%(S) and a 3 tier should be 50%(NM)/25%(HM)/12%(S) which is far from the pre-3.4 50%/3%.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm not sure I'd like to see speedruns rewarded. It already makes some people act like jerks.

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So does every sort of PUG-able content that has a realistic chance of failure. Especially in a team scenario - it's why MOBAs and PvP in general are renown for their toxicity.

Praise the sun for cross server duty finder in terms of making content accessible.
The only downside is no one has to or wants to be nice since you most likely never run into anyone again you have beef with. No need to preserve reputation when not locked to one server.

Played another mmo 8 years with no cross server anything. Douches still existed but not anywhere near now, sucked getting stuff done though unless you made your own groups.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm not sure I'd like to see speedruns rewarded. It already makes some people act like jerks.

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Speed run things were not really a thing in WoW, and if it was, it was usually integral to how the boss fight itself worked. That was more of a 1.xx thing. WoW's achievements worked in as you had to do something unique and out of place in the fight itself. Like say you had something like "Beat Rafflesia while under 8 stacks." Something like that. SE would have to program the fight to work with it for future raids, but it is an added layer to the very same turn that is very minimal effort on their end and midcore/hardcore have something to try to earn even after beating all the turns. Being able to show off something that an average group could not be able to pull off is a very awesome thing to midcore/hardcore players.

Of course to earn the achievements, you -have- to be in ilvl sync to make sure those titles and rewards always mean something even if we are many patches beyond it.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Speed run things were not really a thing in WoW

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http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Challenge_Mode
http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=6...conqueror-gold

?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Challenge_Mode
http://www.wowhead.com/achievement=6...conqueror-gold

?

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I stand corrected. I did not know they put that in there. My experience is up to WoTLK. That is a pretty nifty setup however.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I stand corrected. I did not know they put that in there. My experience is up to WoTLK. That is a pretty nifty setup however.

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With the rise of AoE Prot Paladin tanking in TBC, all game developers embraced the speed run setup to some degree. It was a change of pace and it was fun... but it altered the perspectives people had to clearing content. It is now more focused, at least by the players usually, on how fast all content can be cleared regardless of progression standing, rather than simply doing it to get to that point (i.e. being skilled and geared enough to "speedrun" vanilla Stratholme in WoW to save the NPC).

So I mean, it technically did exist, even before AoE tanking and Mists' introduction of Challenge Mode. It was just more of a reward you earned rather than an expectation back then. But that's like saying the fact you gear up better and can kill things faster is a "speed run", rather than it being a specific method of play and mentality. So you are still correct in one perspective that WoW wasn't originally about SR play.

We're at the end of the second week, A12S died for us and nobody cheered. We just kind of regrouped and helped each other finish Wondrous Tail logs entries and called it a night. There's a distinct lack of accomplishment from finishing anything this time around, anybody else getting this?

I love the fact that thanks to this new raid there's more PF asking for pug savage runs. It's more accessible. It's definitely very much in between t9 and t13 there's a lot of moving around.

It's Ace!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'm not sure I'd like to see speedruns rewarded. It already makes some people act like jerks.

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Ya, if XIV is going to have any achievements/rewards in that respect, which they already do have in a slight sense, it would be completing it with min IL. I'm not sure if mounts from the original Extreme have a better drop rate if done at min IL but if you look at the orchestrion it does note how there are music sheets with a higher drop rate if done at min IL. So if one wanted to keep content relevant/challenging with a decent reward to it, min IL is most likely the best way to go about it.

I'm actually quite glad with the tuning of the current savage tier raid. What i wish for is that the RF is more active. There's hardly anybody inside....

I think half of the problem is they were scared of people not raiding.
Gordias and Midas saw terrible clear rates. They most likely overcompensated and made it purposely easy just to say people ran it this time.
Not only are the mechanics easier, A9-10 have 100% uptime on the boss, which is just stupid to be honest.

Also I'm Wondering if AST buffs had anything to do with it.
10% aoe balance is ridiculous, and I can totally see it using phases.

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Originally Posted by Blim

I'm actually quite glad with the tuning of the current savage tier raid. What i wish for is that the RF is more active. There's hardly anybody inside....

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That's probably because raiding is a niche activity in general. Only 50% of max-level players finished Alexander Normal last tier, and that's when it when it was faceroll from Day 1, even if it gives free loot half the playerbase doesn't bother.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

That's probably because raiding is a niche activity in general. Only 50% of max-level players finished Alexander Normal last tier, and that's when it when it was faceroll from Day 1, even if it gives free loot half the playerbase doesn't bother.

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Really only 50%?! I thought I was really an outlier for not doing it. I just did Gordias and Midas this weekend so that I could unlock the Creator for the gear to up my iLvl, and none of it was particularly technical or challenging, just required slightly more focus than a dungeon. I wonder what is scaring people away from the normal mode?

It's just part of the nature of raiding. It doesn't matter how easy it is, a lot of people just aren't interested in it. It's like any other facet of the game, I level crafters casually but I don't "do crafting". I don't have all the Blue Scrip recipe books, I don't bother with crafting in general outside of slowly getting them to max and then leaving them alone for the rest of the expansion. That's just me, but over half the playerbase is exactly the same in regards to raiding, even if it's Normal Mode.

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Originally Posted by Chalbee

I wonder what is scaring people away from the normal mode?

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We all play for our own reasons. To the more normal crowd of players, the amount of time I spend on this game for the last year or so is more than enough reason to complain about the game or just logically justify quitting. I haven't done either of those things... much. I'm just comfortable with why I choose to log on.

My experience with raids and devoting health jeopardizing amounts of time was long fulfilled years ago with XI and WoW. The concept and rewards of raiding never changes, regardless of the game, and while the experience is generally fun, I'm okay ignoring it. Never done more than A1 normal, haven't even done MSQ since at least a couple patches ago (something I actually do want to motivate myself to finishing), etc. I've just lost a lot of the urge for group content these days. Not against them, and I would do them, but I'm very picky about people I group with these days.

I need to mention again that I'm not badmouthing the game or anything in my not doing these things. I'm just saying that's why I don't do it. Different objectives and priorities for different people. Not to mention getting older, so not really caring about something like a video game as much as I did 10+ years ago.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Didn't people ask for the gear they got in raids to be useful in the next tier? Now that they've done that, people are complaining? lol....

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The DEVs just can't win... XD

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Originally Posted by Mature

I love the fact that thanks to this new raid there's more PF asking for pug savage runs. It's more accessible. It's definitely very much in between t9 and t13 there's a lot of moving around.

It's Ace!

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I've noticed this. Gordias and Midas were never advertised like this, which is rather nice to see. The Creator feels far less static dependent.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

That's probably because raiding is a niche activity in general. Only 50% of max-level players finished Alexander Normal last tier, and that's when it when it was faceroll from Day 1, even if it gives free loot half the playerbase doesn't bother.

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I blame the Normal tier token loot system. It's awful. Hope they do something different next time around. As frustrating as COIL farming could get this ALEXN token just feels miles worse to me.

I have no real issue, that hey made this changes and understand their reasons. It makes me a little bit sad, that we are close to finish A11S just after 14 hrs of raiding, but thats the way they wanted it to be.

The onliest issue I have is they called it "Savage". It is not what "Savage" does mean (the german title translated to english is "Epic"), so it should not get this name.

They just should give it a name that fits to the content. Something like "Hard Mode" or so.

I feel like more people are being carried then they would like to admit. People still wipe and wipe HARD on the normal raids. I'm gonna say it can't be that easy. IF people are still wiping on normal mode.

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Originally Posted by cammi

I feel like more people are being carried then they would like to admit. People still wipe and wipe HARD on the normal raids. I'm gonna say it can't be that easy. IF people are still wiping on normal mode.

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2 weeks after the patch the only few people i see wiping on this fight are:
- Newcomers, which seems legit since they ahaven't done it yet
- People that just want a carry for the weekly loot, basically slacking, not dpsing that much, missing the balls phase etc

This fight ain't difficult when you know what you have to do, but there will always be people that don't wanna put their will into a fight/raid even in Normal mode.

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Originally Posted by cammi

I feel like more people are being carried then they would like to admit. People still wipe and wipe HARD on the normal raids. I'm gonna say it can't be that easy. IF people are still wiping on normal mode.

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You will not believe how many people don't know how to play and despite how easy content will be they will always be people who fail. There are also people who fail because it is their 1st or 2nd try and they still didn't figure out the battle. Also some others fail due to real life reasons (like they are not focused very well on the game, or lags real lags I mean). There are many reasons people fail. The Normal raid is very very easy. I did all them with the first try on 2nd day patch was out with a group with all first timers. Though I admit I had really nice players with me. After 4 wipes we figured out the fight. Still I think the 2nd Alex Normal was more fun that this.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Ya, if XIV is going to have any achievements/rewards in that respect, which they already do have in a slight sense, it would be completing it with min IL.

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Personally, I'd also give a bonus reward for queuing with less than the maximum number of participants (The highest bonus would be achieved by queuing solo). The idea would be to give more incentive to run with strangers.
This could be more gils, more Xp, more tomestone, etc...With the first time bonus and the second chance on Wondrous Tails, people are more newbie friendly these days, let's encourage that even more.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

:C

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Why is it ALWAYS - they must be bad cause I can do it and I think it's easy- WHY? Ever think maybe just MAYBE what's easy for you isn't easy to billy job bob? I'm not attacking you, but I DO strongly disagree with your point. Can you beat all sonic games with OUT losing one ring? In one setting and no deaths? I sure as hell can't. - and I mean ALL sonic games- I'm sure someone can, and it might even be super easy for THEM. But hell I'm not doing that shat. Yes I know they eased the raids up from last patch. But if I'm remembering it correctly last patch people complained that they were too HARD. Now it's too easy? I'm not going to speak for everyone, but whats easy for you and them and joe doesn't mean mark, Candy and Ryu have it easier.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Why is it ALWAYS - they must be bad cause I can do it and I think it's easy

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Remember that, whatever you do in a game, there's a 6 year old japanese that does it better :p

That's my point tho. Everyone wants to cry easy cause THEY can do it. " I can do it so you should too" Well why don't I spin that for real world then. I was blown up in a truck overseas and I didn't break under pressure, or die. I was able to shoot to defend my spot ... so you should too its EASY." See how unfair that is? I don't care if it's an unfair example.. it proves my point. Just cause I was able to live and survive a horrible experience like that doesn't mean the next person can react and act like I can cause I thought it was "easy"

Yes I know I'm being abit black and white with no shade... but so are most of you guys. I'm just trying to say it's not all black and white like everyone is making it out to be. But noone is willing to look at it that way.

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Originally Posted by cammi

SNIP

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I do understand that people learn slower than others and can be bothered with some mechanics: just say it, there is no shame to advice your party that you aren't confortable enough with a fight.
If someone ask for advice or tips, hell yeah i will help them if i can.

When i said "people that wants a carry" i was basically talking about people who are not avoiding unecessary damages, ain't using a good/proper rotation and spam some random skills and wait for the team to the rest of the stuff. That's basically the same people you wanna give some tips/advice after a wipe and won't even respond to you or feel that your attacking them saying their rotation/positionning is not good and they can improve it.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

I do understand that people learn slower than others and can be bothered with some mechanics: just say it, there is no shame to advice your party that you aren't confortable enough with a fight.
If someone ask for advice or tips, hell yeah i will help them if i can.

When i said "people that wants a carry" i was basically talking about people who are not avoiding unecessary damages, ain't using a good/proper rotation and spam some random skills and wait for the team to the reste of the stuff. That's basically the same people you wanna give some tips/advice after a wipe and won't even respond to your or feel that your attacking them saying their rotation/positionning is not good and they can improve it.

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I hope there's no bad blood, I'm just sick of everything being black or white here. I know I can't change anything and all that but it does get under my skin abit too much. I don't even know WHY it gets under my skin too much but it does.

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Originally Posted by cammi

I hope there's no bad blood, I'm just sick of everything being black or white here. I know I can't change anything and all that but it does get under my skin abit too much. I don't even know WHY it gets under my skin too much but it does.

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There is not much, IMO the fight is as difficult as Gordias 4 and Midas 4 when they were launched. After a few weeks, everybody might knows the fight and avoid all the unecessary damages.
I love this fight and litterally went in after my weekly clears just to experience it one more time. But you can't say this is REALLY difficult, as i said, if people knows the mechanics and what to do, you won't wipe anymore (like all the other fights).
The few wipes you can experience these days will happen because people haven't practiced the fight that much or haven't understand how to deal with all the mechanics yet.

So in regards to the title:
You clearly haven't seen WoW's newest Mythic.

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Originally Posted by Mazora_Espeon

The DEVs just can't win... XD

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The complaint people have is more of that the ilvl240 gear has been able to push phases instead of just being able to ensure you can meet certain checks, when usually higher level gear was needed to do this.

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Originally Posted by cammi

I feel like more people are being carried then they would like to admit. People still wipe and wipe HARD on the normal raids. I'm gonna say it can't be that easy. IF people are still wiping on normal mode.

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Because this game does a poor job in getting players to better themselves even for content as simple as story mode raids. When you barely offer content that asks you to perform more than the minimal your job requires, then expect more and more bad players to join in. Of course adding more challenging content will not completely resolve the issue, but it is very clear that SE at this point likes to cater more to bad players than offering a fair challenge in casual content. Relic had to be dumbed down, dungeons have to be dumbed down, and so on.

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Originally Posted by cammi

Why is it ALWAYS - they must be bad cause I can do it and I think it's easy- WHY? Ever think maybe just MAYBE what's easy for you isn't easy to billy job bob? I'm not attacking you, but I DO strongly disagree with your point. Can you beat all sonic games with OUT losing one ring? In one setting and no deaths? I sure as hell can't. - and I mean ALL sonic games- I'm sure someone can, and it might even be super easy for THEM. But hell I'm not doing that shat. Yes I know they eased the raids up from last patch. But if I'm remembering it correctly last patch people complained that they were too HARD. Now it's too easy? I'm not going to speak for everyone, but whats easy for you and them and joe doesn't mean mark, Candy and Ryu have it easier.

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Sure, but you need to know where to draw the line in terms of properly challenging someone, even at a basic level. Doing something like grinding among grinding a certain piece of content is not considered challenging, it is simply tedious work which only requires your patience. You can challenge someone and not have it feel overwhelming. You also shouldn't base design on select people who are so bad at the game that even simplest mechanics wipe them.