Live Letter XXX Discussion Thread

This threat has turned into quite the debate. Less than two weeks now, kittens.

I just hope that the Aquapolis and Palace of the Dead don't end up being as disappointing as Diadem... >w>()

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Once this thing does come out, people will whine more about the rewards than the RNG.

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I care less about the rewards and more about the game being rewarding to play itself.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Are people seriously complaining that they might fail? Some of us don't want everything to be handed to us on a silver platter. >_>

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No. They're complaining that they will fail, through no fault of their own. They failed because the game said they did. Nobody's asking for it to be handed on a silver platter. They want to earn it through their own merits, not because the game said "Here, you're really lucky today. You've earned this."

I disagree with taking RNG completely out of it. Just making subsequent rooms harder would still probably leave them clearable by full parties, and then people would just enter with parties and have 100 percent clear rates... and then getting to the end wouldn't be special, rewards would have to be balanced, etc.

No, leave RNG involved in this. But maybe tone it down. Make it easier to get to the third or fourth room, but then make getting to rooms 5, 6 and 7 require way more luck. Then it's still casual content, but the RNG won't frustrate as many people.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

No. They're complaining that they will fail, through no fault of their own. They failed because the game said they did.

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RNG is part of a lot of MMOrpgs, it's how it works... Why is people never freaking happy?

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Originally Posted by CuteWhisper

RNG is part of a lot of MMOrpgs, it's how it works... Why is people never freaking happy?

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It's one way to make it work. The laziest way. It's not the only way it can work.

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Originally Posted by CuteWhisper

RNG is part of a lot of MMOrpgs, it's how it works... Why is people never freaking happy?

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RNG is a useful too for making an environment seem more real, because most real life experiences seem very random. In actuality, most things are not random, but they are the result of many different factors, too many to feasibly program into a game to give the same effect. So, in order to provide that sense, RNG is used.

However, RNG in FFXIV is not used to make things seem more real, it's used to create very frustrating restrictions to reduce inflation. As MomomoMomi mentioned, it is one way to address the problem, but it is not the only way and certainly not the best.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

However, RNG in FFXIV is not used to make things seem more real, it's used to create very frustrating restrictions to reduce inflation. As MomomoMomi mentioned, it is one way to address the problem, but it is not the only way and certainly not the best.

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So what would be the best way then?

• A grind like the unidentified token system, where you get one token each time, and it takes several to buy something nice with them?
• A very low drop rate, where you get to complete it each time but have your RNG in a different mechanic?
• A 1% chance to get in, again shifting the location of the RNG?
• A puzzle that takes a handful of times to get down, then becomes faceroll?
• A full run each time with common major drops, where they become worthless?
• A level of difficulty that makes this casual content on par with ex primals or savage?

They all have their drawbacks, and you can't please everyone with any of them.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

A level of difficulty that makes this casual content on par with ex primals or savage?

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How is that any more difficult than "YOU LOSE!"? That's the highest difficulty possible right there. I sure as hell can't beat it. Nobody can.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

RNG is a useful too for making an environment seem more real, because most real life experiences seem very random. In actuality, most things are not random, but they are the result of many different factors, too many to feasibly program into a game to give the same effect. So, in order to provide that sense, RNG is used.

However, RNG in FFXIV is not used to make things seem more real, it's used to create very frustrating restrictions to reduce inflation. As MomomoMomi mentioned, it is one way to address the problem, but it is not the only way and certainly not the best.

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Good thing RNG isn't applied to every single bit of content in XIV then, right?

I don't see anything wrong with the Aquapolis having RNG involved, because it's a feature based on the base concept of treasure maps.
You know, the feature where you find a map, go to the spot marked on the map, and dig up a treasure. Sometimes you'll get something nice and rare, but it'd still be common not to receive a rare reward. That's the point of treasure maps, you don't know what you'll end up with.
The Aquapolis is just like that, you don't know what you'll end up finding in there, what rewards you'll get, how many rewards you'll get. Sometimes you'll get to the 7th room, sometimes you'll only get to the 3rd room, sometimes you'll find a rare room instead of a normal one. Just like the map system.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

The Aquapolis is just like that, you don't know what you'll end up finding in there, what rewards you'll get, how many rewards you'll get. Sometimes you'll get to the 7th room, sometimes you'll only get to the 3rd room, sometimes you'll find a rare room instead of a normal one. Just like the map system.

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None of which would change with some of the proposed changes, except that it would make it a more interesting way of achieving the same goal.

In fact, my proposed changes would make it more random. But it'd be interesting randomness and not pass or fail.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

How is that any more difficult than "YOU LOSE!"? That's the highest difficulty possible right there. I sure as hell can't beat it. Nobody can.

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Are you saying that making the fights require flawless play and teamwork or result in a wipe is a better system? Remember how quickly they nerfed Steps of Faith? And that wasn't even that hard; you could have 3 dead weight party members and still beat it.

Maps are a casual content where you can grab a couple friends and have fun screwing around and doing something a little different from normal instances. There's not enough stuff in the game like and, and it doesn't need to be turned into something that requires a static.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Are you saying that making the fights require flawless play and teamwork or result in a wipe is a better system? Remember how quickly they nerfed Steps of Faith? And that wasn't even that hard; you could have 3 dead weight party members and still beat it.

Maps are a casual content where you can grab a couple friends and have fun screwing around and doing something a little different from normal instances. There's not enough stuff in the game like and, and it doesn't need to be turned into something that requires a static.

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If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

RNG is a useful too for making an environment seem more real, because most real life experiences seem very random. In actuality, most things are not random, but they are the result of many different factors, too many to feasibly program into a game to give the same effect. So, in order to provide that sense, RNG is used.

However, RNG in FFXIV is not used to make things seem more real, it's used to create very frustrating restrictions to reduce inflation. As MomomoMomi mentioned, it is one way to address the problem, but it is not the only way and certainly not the best.

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You appear to have an issue with gaming in general if you're complaining about RNG. You've had horrible experiences with the Desire Sensor, haven't you?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

So what would be the best way then?

• A grind like the unidentified token system, where you get one token each time, and it takes several to buy something nice with them?
• A very low drop rate, where you get to complete it each time but have your RNG in a different mechanic?
• A 1% chance to get in, again shifting the location of the RNG?
• A puzzle that takes a handful of times to get down, then becomes faceroll?
• A full run each time with common major drops, where they become worthless?
• A level of difficulty that makes this casual content on par with ex primals or savage?

They all have their drawbacks, and you can't please everyone with any of them.

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I would say all of those are better. However, my personal opinion is a puzzle would be best. That is actually a form of game and requires skill/thought to complete. It becoming something that you learn and becomes "faceroll" is no different than learning/mastering any game. I fail to see why mastering a puzzle is even in the same ballpark of poor game-design as an RNG system that decides if you get to move on or not.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

You appear to have an issue with gaming in general if you're complaining about RNG. You've had horrible experiences with the Desire Sensor, haven't you?

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I feel the need to respond, as you directly quoted me, but I must admit I don't understand you. I do not have an issue with RNG, nor gaming in general, but I do have any issue with poor game design. Poor game design is when things are added that address a symptom rather than a cause, or when things are added that create more problems then they solve, or when they are not designed with 'fun' in mind. I have 0 idea what you mean by Desire Sensor. Is that actually a thing, or a joke, or...?

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Good thing RNG isn't applied to every single bit of content in XIV then, right?

I don't see anything wrong with the Aquapolis having RNG involved, because it's a feature based on the base concept of treasure maps.
You know, the feature where you find a map, go to the spot marked on the map, and dig up a treasure. Sometimes you'll get something nice and rare, but it'd still be common not to receive a rare reward. That's the point of treasure maps, you don't know what you'll end up with.
The Aquapolis is just like that, you don't know what you'll end up finding in there, what rewards you'll get, how many rewards you'll get. Sometimes you'll get to the 7th room, sometimes you'll only get to the 3rd room, sometimes you'll find a rare room instead of a normal one. Just like the map system.

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I am fairly certain nearly everything in the game has RNG. In fact, every piece of content should have some form of RNG added. The issue isn't the existence of RNG, it is the use of it. Having RNG decide 100% whether you get to continue or not is not a fun experience. Having RNG decide whether something loads, or an event happens etc is a good use of it.

As for your talk on treasure maps, yes, I am aware what they are. I've always found them to be a waste of time and a waste of potential. We used to do maps-days in my FC which were great fun, but the actual content wasn't, unfortunately. As for the use of RNG, where sometimes you get something nice and rare, this is a decent (not amazing, but decent) use of RNG.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

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Except for having useful and rare rewards when you do get lucky.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

However, my personal opinion is a puzzle would be best. That is actually a form of game and requires skill/thought to complete. It becoming something that you learn and becomes "faceroll" is no different than learning/mastering any game. I fail to see why mastering a puzzle is even in the same ballpark of poor game-design as an RNG system that decides if you get to move on or not.

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Fun loses its fun when it's repetitive, and SE has yet to demonstrate any ability/willingness to create a puzzle that requires more than reading a 3 sentence guide.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

None of which would change with some of the proposed changes, except that it would make it a more interesting way of achieving the same goal.

In fact, my proposed changes would make it more random. But it'd be interesting randomness and not pass or fail.

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Or they could just keep it as it is. They never changed the map system in a major way, they have no reason to change a feature that's built on that system.

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If you chose the wrong door, it gets more difficult. That's it. It's easy until you pick a wrong door. Instead of failing, it gets harder. You might win. You'll probably lose. But you might win.

You can't beat it? Then you lose and end up exactly where the current system would have put you. Nothing is lost here.

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The Aquapolis is designed for light parties (4 players), this means your suggested change would require them to make the wrong rooms more difficult while still allowing light parties to clear them.
Result? People will simply do them as a full party to ease the difficulty to the point where it'll be easy to clear all the rooms, even the wrong ones.
They also can't just limit the Aquapolis to 4 players, since you can do the maps with more than 4 players.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Fun loses its fun when it's repetitive, and SE has yet to demonstrate any ability/willingness to create a puzzle that requires more than reading a 3 sentence guide.

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True, but it being fun for the first few times is infinitely more fun than it being never fun and incredibly frustrating every time.

However, you are definitely right, I have yet to see SE demonstrate the ability to implement a fun, dynamic and engaging puzzle. I have seen quite a few decent ones in WoW, actually. It can be done, if they put their minds to it.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

True, but it being fun for the first few times is infinitely more fun than it being never fun and incredibly frustrating every time.

However, you are definitely right, I have yet to see SE demonstrate the ability to implement a fun, dynamic and engaging puzzle. I have seen quite a few decent ones in WoW, actually. It can be done, if they put their minds to it.

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Until the player base throws a fit over it. Steps of Faith. Never forget.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

As for your talk on treasure maps, yes, I am aware what they are. I've always found them to be a waste of time and a waste of potential. We used to do maps-days in my FC which were great fun, but the actual content wasn't, unfortunately. As for the use of RNG, where sometimes you get something nice and rare, this is a decent (not amazing, but decent) use of RNG.

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So you see them as a waste of time, yet you had fun during map-days with your FC. I'll go with the assumption that it's because the maps are a great thing for social FC events, where you're just hanging around, digging up treasure, killing some monsters. Doesn't really sound like you wasted your time, if you indirectly had fun, despite the fact that you don't consider maps fun.

As for your last sentence, are you trying to make it sound like you no longer have an issue with the RNG in the Aquapolis?
Sometimes you get something nice and rare [continuing on to the next room, getting more rewards], sometimes you don't. [wrong door, you stop getting rewards until the next time you enter]

i don't know what to do, but rely on luck for decide how far you can go in Aquapolis is not nice and quite unfair... rng is rng, you can be freaking unlucky and never seen pass the 3rd room in all your try.
get Aquapolis is already luck, then you must choose the right door for continue and another time you must be lucky to get the rare treasure room for get the best loot...

do i'm into a casino? or do i play FF14? not everyone love gamble, there it's way too big gamble!

personally i will be ok, with a reduction of the timer when you pick the wrong, door instead to simply.... you loose get out.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

not everyone love gamble, there it's way too big gamble!

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Then don't do it. Not everything in the game is for everybody.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Until the player base throws a fit over it. Steps of Faith. Never forget.

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To be fair, Steps of Faith was neither a puzzle, nor fun =P

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

So you see them as a waste of time, yet you had fun during map-days with your FC. I'll go with the assumption that it's because the maps are a great thing for social FC events, where you're just hanging around, digging up treasure, killing some monsters. Doesn't really sound like you wasted your time, if you indirectly had fun, despite the fact that you don't consider maps fun.

As for your last sentence, are you trying to make it sound like you no longer have an issue with the RNG in the Aquapolis?
Sometimes you get something nice and rare [continuing on to the next room, getting more rewards], sometimes you don't. [wrong door, you stop getting rewards until the next time you enter]

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I see Treasure maps in and of themselves as a waste of time, and would rather spend time doing other content with people. We had fun doing maps, but we also had fun doing other content. What was fun was doing stuff with friends - similarly to cleaning dishes with friends can be fun as you joke around. Cleaning dishes on its own is not a fun activity.

As for my last sentence, as mentioned, I do not have an issue with RNG in and of itself, I have an issue with how RNG is used in terms of the 50% chance that you choose the right door. It could even be made around speed - maybe if you finish the floor in X seconds, you have a 90% chance of choosing the right door, but if you finish in X+20, it's 80%. X+40 = 70% etc. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

To be fair, Steps of Faith was neither a puzzle, nor fun =P



I see Treasure maps in and of themselves as a waste of time, and would rather spend time doing other content with people. We had fun doing maps, but we also had fun doing other content. What was fun was doing stuff with friends - similarly to cleaning dishes with friends can be fun as you joke around. Cleaning dishes on its own is not a fun activity.

As for my last sentence, as mentioned, I do not have an issue with RNG in and of itself, I have an issue with how RNG is used in terms of the 50% chance that you choose the right door.

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But it's the result of what happens when you try to do something different.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

To be fair, Steps of Faith was neither a puzzle, nor fun =P

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Assuming from your join date and you might not be playing an alt like I am so correct me if I'm wrong, you never did Steps of Faith before it was horribly nerfed because XIV's playerbase can't handle difficult story line bosses that require team work, now people just shoot cannons at the dragon and wail on it til its dead.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

As for my last sentence, as mentioned, I do not have an issue with RNG in and of itself, I have an issue with how RNG is used in terms of the 50% chance that you choose the right door. It could even be made around speed - maybe if you finish the floor in X seconds, you have a 90% chance of choosing the right door, but if you finish in X+20, it's 80%. X+40 = 70% etc. *shrug*

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Again, this would just force people to go with a full group of people, just to make it way easier to ready those time limits, as anything less would be considered a disadvantage.

Just leave it the way it is, and avoid it if you don't enjoy running this type of content.

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

Assuming from your join date and you might not be playing an alt like I am so correct me if I'm wrong, you never did Steps of Faith before it was horribly nerfed because XIV's playerbase can't handle difficult story line bosses that require team work, now people just shoot cannons at the dragon and wail on it til its dead.

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Nah my join date I think must be my forum join date? I created my character in 2013. I have played on and off, but I was actively playing on Steps release. I cleared it on the first day of its release.

I am not asking for anything difficult here, just something fun to do. Again, Steps of Faith is neither fun nor a puzzle - not at all what I am asking for =P

EDIT: Correction, looks like I started at the very start of 2014 - my 30 quests achievement date is in Feb 2014.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Then don't do it. Not everything in the game is for everybody.

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exept they have a whole place for gambling called gold saucer... plus most of the game are rng based, make this system leave me.... confused.
the whole idea is... you are lucky you deserve more reward? like luck is a skill or nothing?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

However, you are definitely right, I have yet to see SE demonstrate the ability to implement a fun, dynamic and engaging puzzle. I have seen quite a few decent ones in WoW, actually. It can be done, if they put their minds to it.

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Current discussion about the Aquapolis aside, I'm curious if you can list some of these decent puzzles from WoW?

I've played that game for years, up until the SoO content drought made me quit, and again after realizing that WoD was garbage on every front except raiding, and I can't recall any decent puzzles.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

exept they have a whole place for gambling called gold saucer... plus most of the game are rng based, make this system leave me.... confused.
the whole idea is... you are lucky you deserve more reward? like luck is a skill or nothing?

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Welcome to MMOs, rng is everywhere. It's how they keep you playing (paying their bills). If they took away this system of rng, they would just replace it with a different one - probably a lower drop rate. And it would still be the lucky people getting the reward.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Current discussion about the Aquapolis aside, I'm curious if you can list some of these decent puzzles from WoW?

I've played that game for years, up until the SoO content drought made me quit, and again after realizing that WoD was garbage on every front except raiding, and I can't recall any decent puzzles.

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Um I don't know the game well enough really to name locations lol - I just leveled up a Priest to 100 (haven't played in 6years previously to that) about a month ago. That said there were some with statues that you had to turn to tether to each other and things like that. In all honesty, I didn't really record them or devote to memory, I just remember leveling and think "hey, this is a fun little puzzle! I wish FFXIV did stuff like this."

Here are a few vids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxJ9M_RZ0G4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlAP4l0DLSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZx3ppCEVY

They're not amazing, but it's a nice little break from the usual

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

exept they have a whole place for gambling called gold saucer... plus most of the game are rng based, make this system leave me.... confused.

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Only 2 contents in Gold Saucer is gambling

I'm gonna discuss Palace of the Dead. Unlike Diadem, I can see the devs continuing with Deep Dungeons becuase unlike Diadem, it CAN be solo'd (it would be easier to bring more people, but nothing is preventing you from doing it alone), it would also allow them to experiment with mechanics for Dungeon/raid use. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Um I don't know the game well enough really to name locations lol - I just leveled up a Priest to 100 (haven't played in 6years previously to that) about a month ago. That said there were some with statues that you had to turn to tether to each other and things like that. In all honesty, I didn't really record them or devote to memory, I just remember leveling and think "hey, this is a fun little puzzle! I wish FFXIV did stuff like this."

Here are a few vids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxJ9M_RZ0G4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlAP4l0DLSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqZx3ppCEVY

They're not amazing, but it's a nice little break from the usual

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Oh right, now I remember the Warden's/Sentinel's Game. I'll agree that those are pretty neat. Never really thought of the ropes part of the Timeless Isle as a puzzle, though. (probably because I was an engineer, and simply glided to the treasure chest, lol)
I also remember the statues one in Talador, but I'm not sure if I'd call that much of a puzzle, as it simply involved turning 3 statues around. (also felt stupid to only just now realize that it was a reference to FF6, with the treasure containing the Signet Ring of Gehs'taal)

It'd be difficult to add puzzles that'd require some thinking, without being too easy. As well as it being difficult to add them to the Aquapolis, with it being less than 2 weeks from release.
It might be cool for a future patch, like some kind of Allagan Labyrinth filled with puzzles, or perhaps puzzles related to quests like the ones from Matoya's Cave, or "The Greatest Story Never Told."

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

It'd be difficult to add puzzles that'd require some thinking, without being too easy. As well as it being difficult to add them to the Aquapolis, with it being less than 2 weeks from release.
It might be cool for a future patch, like some kind of Allagan Labyrinth filled with puzzles, or perhaps puzzles related to quests like the ones from Matoya's Cave, or "The Greatest Story Never Told."

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Undoubtedly, I don't expect them to actually be able to introduce it for this in time for release. I would like them to think more in terms of stuff like that rather than just using RNG to decide in future content though.

I wish I could do palace of the dead with my chocobo

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Originally Posted by Derio

I wish I could do palace of the dead with my chocobo

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Yeah, I love having my chocobo eat all the AOEs.

Lets talk abou the trial of Nidhogg, do you guys expect some similar mechanics like on the aery?
You think we may encounter mechanics similar no any dragon we faced on the coil, divebombs perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Lets talk abou the trial of Nidhogg, do you guys expect some similar mechanics like on the aery?
You think we may encounter mechanics similar no any dragon we faced on the coil, divebombs perhaps?

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I expect the Mechanics from the Aery, but cranked up to eleven. I also woul like to see Nidhogg use some mechanics/attacks from Migardsomnr and Bahamut (particularly the latter)

Some pics that were released seem to indicate a presence of adds/minibosses, so expect some semblance of a dps check even on normal mode.
Also, probably a hard wipe even on normal with his megabreath atk XD No shields this time tho.
I'm pretty sure 1 mechanic is going to be him switching between his dragon and eleven form, and perhaps in extreme splitting into both forms at the same time, with 1 form in the Aery at all times with different mechanics and a hard dps check.

Plus AOEs, LOTS AND LOTS OF AOEs!!!
*moment of silence for our dead healers*