SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

You guys can't think outside the box is all I'm getting out of all of this. Not everyone, and especially those who say heavier armor = tanks only, and tanks = heavy armor only. Can I (we) have some much, much needed variety, please?

If Samurai were going to be a tank, they would be called a Shogun...not a Samurai. And would also not be using a katana.

Whatever they do with Samurai won't ever top this guy.

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20120725050137

Edit: If anything those bums are gonna either plop fending or maiming gear on Sammy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

You guys can't think outside the box is all I'm getting out of all of this. Not everyone, and especially those who say heavier armor = tanks only, and tanks = heavy armor only. Can I (we) have some much, much needed variety, please?

---

Especially since, you know, we have Dragoons wearing full plate in the game already. And some of the ninja armors are actually armors.

Edit: Also, everyone seems to conveniently forget the series has already had a clothed Samurai without armor. Auron.

This topic makes me wanna rewatch Samurai Champloo, too.

Check under Auron's coat you chump. He's got armor on. Medium grade armor at that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Check under Auron's coat you chump. He's got armor on. Medium grade armor at that.

---

Like a light leather chest-piece at best lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Check under Auron's coat you chump. He's got armor on. Medium grade armor at that.

---

Not even nearly DRG-level thickness or coverage? It's a breastplate. Leather by appearance. We have Ninjas far better armored than that.

I don't want Samurai I want Shogun... and I want it as a TANK. DPS can have Samurai I don't care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

Edit: Also, everyone seems to conveniently forget the series has already had a clothed Samurai without armor. Auron.

---

Not really sure anyone forgot. In fact, there are other examples, but not sure what you're getting at. I myself want people to consider why we can or cannot have both a Shogun and Ronin job in the game rather than all the petty "Sam is a DPS because Yoshida said so" which isn't even true and the, "can we discuss more 'original' tanks in a SAM thread please?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

http://static.zerochan.net/Mugen.%28...ull.631910.jpg

http://static.zerochan.net/Yatogami....ll.1276546.jpg

---

Okay, first of all Mugen isn't a Samurai, he doesn't even use a katana for that matter. He's just a guy with a sword in the Edo-era, and that last picture... I mean really? Do I even have to explain that he's just a guy with a katana? There have been no samurai since long before the Japanese started wearing western clothing.

As for the other two examples you give... Yeah, we could have DPS like that, and I'm all for it to be honest. However, if we only get that over the heavy o-yoroi or doumaru, I'll be greatly disappointed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not even nearly DRG-level thickness or coverage? It's a breastplate. Leather by appearance. We have Ninjas far better armored than that.

---

It's nice knowing you can compare gear that already exists to a class that currently doesn't. Point is Samurai do indeed wear some form of armor and usually more then a bathrobe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Not really sure anyone forgot. In fact, there are other examples, but not sure what you're getting at. I myself want people to consider why we can or cannot have both a Shogun and Ronin job in the game rather than all the petty "Sam is a DPS because Yoshida said so" which isn't even true and the, "can we discuss more 'original' tanks in a SAM thread please?"

---

What do you mean? This whole topic is all of us discussing what Samurai could be. You made it with that intention, so that's what I'm getting at. Nothing at all says "Yoshi-P must strictly adhere to historically accurate samurai when making a class." Dark Knight and Dragoon don't even exist, so there's no reason Samurai in a fantasy MMO have to be anything. They could be as unrealistic as his team wants it to be. It's fun to discuss either way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

You guys can't think outside the box is all I'm getting out of all of this. Not everyone, and especially those who say heavier armor = tanks only, and tanks = heavy armor only. Can I (we) have some much, much needed variety, please?

---

If you deviate too from what a samurai is then it is no longer a samurai.

Variety is nice but not at the cost of the base idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Handheld

If you deviate too from what a samurai is then it is no longer a samurai.

Variety is nice but not at the cost of the base idea.

---

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

In the FF franchise, what makes something a job is their signature abilities and to a certain degree (ones more than others), their weapons. Prime example is DRG, you can't call something a dragoon just because they wield a spear if you're not gonna give them Jump. Now, about this tank vs DD argument going on, stop this "heavy armor means it's only allowed to tank". By that logic (and the logic used before and after XIV), something wielding a big-as-me sword should be a massive damage dealer (and in this case, it really should've been), same with a great axe user. They already did that to DRK, which I'm not getting into *again*, let's not turn another armor user into a tank just because it uses armor. Let's focus on the weapon (which, mind you, is what this game is supposed to focus on, based on the Armoury system, and not the armor).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

Er no, not to a science, but please enlighten me. I'm just curious about all this, because this job peaks my intrest more than RDM now.

Haha I knew trying my hand at lore would be catastrophic.

---

The cometary was about that Anime pics that people was posting, maybe I should be more specific.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The cometary was about that Anime pics that people was posting, maybe I should be more specific.

---

Yeah it's whatever the Japanese decide they are - however they decide to represent them - as they no longer exist.

However a few key points would be they were essentially well trained soldiers that followed a certain moral code called "Bushido" and were weapons experts in several forms of combat including hand-to-hand martial arts.

All that said there is no, real, true "Samurai" nor is there a real, true, "Knight" as many-a-video and paper have explained. It's far too broad a term over far too broad a time period to say any one thing is a "proper" Samurai or Knight. There are just several incarnations over periods of time.

I feel like samurai is gonna be that charging heavy hitter DPS. I'm thinking along the lines of Jack from Type 0. Its attacks will be possible to charge by holding the skill down. Well some weapon skills will be chargeable. I also think Samurai will be more focused on crowd control. Something equivalent to SMN. Maybe primarily debuff and DOT based to fill in for the time while charging the attack. Also no flank/rear bonuses
I.e.
Shooting Star has a base potency of 290 has a 3 stage charge increasing potency by 200 for each stage.

Banishing Blade chargeable inflicts curse(lowers stats like virus)

Dragon Fang oGCD places 100 potency dot aoe to surounding targets for 18 sec enhanced 30s


Concentration/Focus chargeable attacks get a fourth stage.
Reflex- critical hit rate goes up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

What do you mean? This whole topic is all of us discussing what Samurai could be. You made it with that intention, so that's what I'm getting at.

---

All you said was:

Quote:

---

Edit: Also, everyone seems to conveniently forget the series has already had a clothed Samurai without armor. Auron.

---

So, I just don't really know what you're getting at here. Are you saying that because Auron, a character that is an homage to Ronin, wears light armor, that we should get a light-armored Samurai? Like I said, no one has forgotten any of this. One could say that you've forgotten that he's not specifically a Samurai, but an homage, whereas Cyan is quite literally a samurai in FF6, but it just so happens that in that universe, he wears knight armor. Auron was a warrior monk if you really wanna get into it.

Samurai have inspired many ideas for FF over the years, and there's a big variation between the Ronin types and the armor-clad types. None of it is any reason why it shouldn't be DPS or Tank. Everyone is too caught up in the little things instead of just looking at whether this game can handle 2 Samurai. Are there any DPS who after getting a Ronin job, would be pissed if they announced a Shogun tank? "Why?" is my question.

Quote:

---

Dark Knight and Dragoon don't even exist, so there's no reason Samurai in a fantasy MMO have to be anything. They could be as unrealistic as his team wants it to be. It's fun to discuss either way.

---

Just for the record, Dark Knights and Dragoons are fantasy interpretations of real life things. I'm not saying things have to be historically accurate, and I've never said that because that would be boring. What I've done is bring in factual evidence when people make false, outrageous claims about "real life."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

All that said there is no, real, true "Samurai" nor is there a real, true, "Knight" as many-a-video and paper have explained.

---

Samurai and Knights were a definable thing. Yes, they all had armor. The thing is, they didn't wear this armor all the time. It was almost exclusively reserved for the battlefield in the case of samurai. Things do get more complicated when you realize that the samurai were real people and could fall on hard times if they or their lord lost a battle, and they could thus be forced to sell their armor sometimes to make ends meet if they were no longer formally a samurai. In samurai culture, the "soul" of the samurai was his sword and many would rather die than sell it, some however would rather live than keep it. Samurai and Knights who no longer served a lord would lose their status, but like we say in the US about Marines as an example, "once a marine, always a marine," one could argue that they were still Samurai and Knights in all but title.

As for correct representations, yes there are tons of ways to portray them. My question is, do you think that if we got a Shogun tank, would a Ronin DPS be too much, considering we'd have a Samurai tank and two eastern DPS already?

I feel it's best suited to a medium-armored melee DPS (same as DRG). I see a lot of people taking things outside of the Final Fantasy context here...they, as far as I'm aware, universally use katanas in all other Final Fantasy games. They're not going to have bows, or some obscure Japanese weapon.

Also trying to imagine a Samurai in the existing shared tank gear is kinda...weird. Not that it couldn't happen because of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

All you said was:



So, I just don't really know what you're getting at here. Are you saying that because Auron, a character that is an homage to Ronin, wears light armor, that we should get a light-armored Samurai?

---

What I'm getting at is that FFXIV's Samurai doesn't need to be heavily armored since FF series has already done Samurai without it. We could get either. And why would anyone be pissed if both DPS players and Tank players got a samurai class? That's a moot point anyway since Yoshi-P isn't going to do it, anyway. If we had it my way, there would be 2 samurai classes like you proposed. It won't happen so there's not a lot to discuss. I've also never used any of my reasoning to prove Samurai could or could not be DPS or Tank.

Samurai's key ability in all FF games has always been Bushido, or Zanshin. (Shin-Zantetsuken maybe?")
You can expect some sort of lineup of abilities from Samurai here.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L...#Katana_Skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

...why would anyone be pissed if both DPS players and Tank players got a samurai class? That's a moot point anyway since Yoshi-P isn't going to do it, anyway. If we had it my way, there would be 2 samurai classes like you proposed. It won't happen so there's not a lot to discuss.

---

Pessimist much? The whole purpose of this thread is to get people to support the idea of both because if enough people support it, it will happen. Contrary to what the people who claim that Yoshida said, "sam is a dps" say, what Yoshida really said was that he would look to us to help him decide what to do with samurai.

Don't feel like Yoshida and his team pay no attention to what the players want. That's the whole reason why these forums exist in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

As for correct representations, yes there are tons of ways to portray them. My question is, do you think that if we got a Shogun tank, would a Ronin DPS be too much, considering we'd have a Samurai tank and two eastern DPS already?

---

First of all calling them "Shogun" or "Ronin" is..pointless. They're terms you made up to distinguish their roles. SquareEnix will just call it "Samurai" one way or the other. Second: No I don't think it would be too much to have a Samurai DPS. Third what is the other "Eastern" DPS? We have Ninja and...?

Monk = Ala Mhigan order the Fist of Rhalgr...which is right next to Garlemand Empire and Eorzea.
Dragoon = Ishgardian Order of Knights for killing Dragons
Machinist = Ishgardian Order of Soldiers for Killing Dragons
Summoner = Ancient Study of Magic from Amdapor or something
Black Mage = Ancient Study of Magic by some ancient city state
Bard = Gridanian form of support troops

So...who else is from the East? O.o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

stuff

---

I don't know how he would make 2 classes of Samurai after he already admitted making so many classes was hard to do. Why would their team waste resources on making 2 roles for one job instead of making 2 jobs? Lots of people want Dancer or Red Mage. Like I said, if it were up to me we'd have two samurai. One would be heavy armor tank while the other would be a more romanticized version. Then they'd even feel unique. I can't see it happening, no matter how much I'd want it, but anything is possible. It'd be a first for XIV.

Also, if they listened to every single thing we wanted, DRK would be a DPS right now. Maybe we could influence what role the SAM will be, but I doubt they're gonna make multiple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

First of all calling them "Shogun" or "Ronin" is..pointless. They're terms you made up to distinguish their roles.

---

And? That's the whole point of this thread...

Quote:

---

SquareEnix will just call it "Samurai" one way or the other.

---

"Thief" -> Rogue.

Quote:

---

Monk = Ala Mhigan order the Fist of Rhalgr...which is right next to Garlemand Empire and Eorzea.

---

Quote:

---

who else is from the East? O.o

---

Okay, so first of all, Doma isn't the only place in the "East." We got other nations with different themes on the continent of Othard. The recent interview with Koji Fox gets into this.

Second, "East" is used by both players and the development team in two different ways. We have the East in the game, which is Othard, and we have the East in real life. If by some chance we get a RDM, BLU, DNC, RNG, BST, etc. from Rabanastre or Dalmasca, yes they're "Eastern" jobs within the context of the game, but they're not what art designers would call "Eastern-themed" jobs.

This however, would be:

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/im...oncept_art.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

Why would their team waste resources on making 2 roles for one job instead of making 2 jobs?... Like I said, if it were up to me we'd have two samurai. One would be heavy armor tank while the other would be a more romanticized version. Then they'd even feel unique.

---

Again, the reason why they'd do this is because people want it. Like you just said, it's what you want, and it would even feel unique. If enough people get behind the idea, we will see it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Don't feel like Yoshida and his team pay no attention to what the players want. That's the whole reason why these forums exist in the first place.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

Also, if they listened to every single thing we wanted, DRK would be a DPS right now.

---

They made a poll when Yoshida took over, and they didn't listen. What Ciri said just there is proof of that very same poll. So no, they don't really listen to the players, or they wouldn't be pulling the "PS3 limitations" excuse so often.

Looking into the job mechanics of other classes...

MNK focuses on greased lightning stacks for their job mechanic
DRG focuses on Blood of the Dragon and ability procs
NIN focuses on Ninjutsu
BRD focusing on songs for support

What do you think we would see for SAM?

Based off of some of the previous games, SAM focused a lot on mobility/evasion and countering. SAM also had a mechanic of stacking evasion or a certain stat (i.e AP or evasion) to perform a stronger attack.

If SAM were a DPS we would most likely see a stacking job mechanic, like Critical Hit rate increase. (Similar to Wrath)
Or since SAM focuses on evasion, (evasion being useless in this game anyway) instead it could be a chance to proc oGCDs during combo attacks on the SAM ability list.
SAM as a DPS is a strong melee type with Higher HP than other jobs. Similar to MNK in HP pool.
I would consider SAM as a Strength type job instead of a Dexterity job simply because of its higher HP in other FF games.

On the tank side we could generally see the same thing.

You're super good at splitting hairs.

Convince me why 2 or even 3 DPS jobs "From the East" is too many. After all, isn't 3 "Western" Tanks too many? Shouldn't Dark Knight have been a "Western" DPS because we already had 2 "Western" Tanks? This makes literally no sense.

Also Rogue/Ninja is never called Thief in FFXIV...so I'm not sure why you brought that up. In the same way, I'm fairly certain in FF of any sort was there a "Ronin" or "Shogun" but rather only Samurai. It is what the developers call it...

Edit: Also to clarify I don't care if it is a tank or a healer or a DPS. In fact I would be fine if all we got for the next 6 expansions were magic users of various types and never got Samurai. I literally don't care. However based on common media portrayal etc... it makes sense that it would be a damage dealer rather than a tank.

Also just for reference http://www.ffxivinfo.com/images/maps...aps-eorzea.jpg Ala Mhigo is right next to Gridania... It's barely in the East in game, although I suppose as for "real life inspiration" Monk would be considered Eastern - sure...but in the real world, and in game Dark Knights..Dragoons...Machinists...all come from Ishgard which is in the West - and so do their real life counterparts (Knights are European, Gun powder came to Japan from Europe..Dragoons were calvary pikemen...from Europe...)

So again - is having all the "Western" DPS and Tanks too many "Western" DPS and Tanks? Why does the influence of the region in game or IRL matter /at all/?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tanathya

They made a poll when Yoshida took over, and they didn't listen. What Ciri said just there is proof of that very same poll. So no, they don't really listen to the players, or they wouldn't be pulling the "PS3 limitations" excuse so often.

---

Getting way off topic here, but thanks to that poll we got SMN next with a new healer, then we got NIN, and they got an idea where of how to design the next new race, Au Ra. Players really wanted DRK too, so we got that as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

Convince me why 2 or even 3 DPS jobs "From the East" is too many. After all, isn't 3 "Western" Tanks too many? Shouldn't Dark Knight have been a "Western" DPS because we already had 2 "Western" Tanks? This makes literally no sense.

---

You really gotta work on your reading comprehension man. Go back and look at the very first post in this thread and you'll see that I want a Samurai DPS and Tank.

Quote:

---

Also Rogue/Ninja is never called Thief in FFXIV...so I'm not sure why you brought that up.

---

It's actually referred to it in the class quests, and they explain why they're not the "thieves" guild. That said, the reason I brought it up is because it was always referred to as "thief" in preliminary talks before the class was announced. Much like samurai now.

Quote:

---

However based on common media portrayal etc.

---

You really gotta just give this up. lol

Quote:

---

So again - is having all the "Western" DPS and Tanks too many "Western" DPS and Tanks? Why does the influence of the region in game or IRL matter /at all/?

---

Because people use the argument saying that tanks have too many "swords" or "already have a 2h sword," so my question is "would a sam tank and dps be too much considering there are already two eastern themed dps?" If the answer is no, that dps can accommodate it, then I ask those people to please like my first post so that we can gain traction on this idea and bring two samurai to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

You really gotta work on your reading comprehension man. Go back and look at the very first post in this thread and you'll see that I want a Samurai DPS and Tank.

---

I mean I understand. My reading comprehension is above average. I'm just being realistic. There's only going to be one Samurai. It's only going to have one role. Based on common portrayal it makes more sense for it to kill things with it's Katana than to be a tank soaking hits. Whether it is a tank, a DPS, a healer, or never comes out doesn't matter to me. I'm more than happy with Dragoon, Warrior, Astrologian etc... I play and enjoy every role. Just basing it off the general "conception" of the Samurai if you asked a common MMO player "Based on Anime, TV, and other portrayals does it make more sense for a Samurai to be DPS or Tank" they would probably answer DPS.

Matter of fact if you want my "real" take on it: I would rather not get Samurai at all. I would prefer more magic users. I would prefer other jobs in general. When I think of Final Fantasy the samurai job does not immediately come to mind.

Based off of previous FF games however, Samurai didn't have as high an HP Pool as the WAR job, or the PLD job.

However, in FFX-2 the Samurai carried a Great Katana and I believe.

How can we put these Samurai abilities into FFXIV terms as an ability?

Reflex - Improve your evasion by remaining calm and exercising sound judgement.
Meditate - Calm your mind to streamline movement, resulting in shorter ability cooldown.
Tranquility - Focus your mind to recover the last 20 seconds of AP you have used.


Some Speculation...

Reflex - in FFXIV terms could be a stance based on the text, but it would not be for evasion.
Meditate - (I know MNK has meditation...) Could very well be a cooldown, increasing skill speed. (SAM is a mobile job)
Tranquility - In terms of AP, could translate into TP for this job.

*These could be stances? Or abilities or traits.*
(These are actual SAM job abilities from other FF games.)

I really want Bushido to be some kind of mechanic in XIV's Samurai.

Rather than have a Samurai I would rather have Red Mage, Blue Mage, Geomancer, and BeastMaster.

BeastMaster could be a melee DPS that also controls all varieties of monsters as pets from Behemoths to little birds and everything in between.
Geomancer could take the offensive spells of the Conjurer to the next level and play something akin to an Elemental Shaman from WoW - Earthquakes, Stone 4, Wind 4, Water attacks, etc...
Red Mage could be a true hybrid - much like tank stances. a "Ranged" magic stance or a "Melee" physical stance or something. Or perhaps they could do something truly unique and make it so they can use it all whenever.
Blue Mage of course would use interesting monster themed abilities - Thousand Needles for AOE etc.. Perhaps to spice things up they could play something like a Druid from WoW or Udyr from LoL taking on specific animal or monster traits...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krissey

Rather than have a Samurai I would rather have Red Mage, Blue Mage, Geomancer, and BeastMaster.

---

But this Thread is about Samurai... feel free to start a thread of those other jobs somewhere else.

I said the same about DRK expending HP for stuff.

Odds are bushido will be namedropped and just be tied to abilities. May even work in the opposite action you hope it would work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

But this Thread is about Samurai... feel free to start a thread of those other jobs somewhere else.

---

Well I've already said based on popular media most people probably think of Samurai as a DPS killing things with their katana over a tank absorbing damage and hits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWolfwood

Snip

---

I'm confused are you talking about Samurai being DPS and Tank roles like roles SMN SCH? (Which will never happen btw)

Or A tank with a better DPS stance?

Also someone should make a straw poll for this.

We will definately see SAM in the next expansion have an ability called...

***Iai - Draw and slash in one motion. charge to max power for a guaranteed critical.***

If we were to translate Iai into FFXIV as an ability, would it do the following?

1. grant a stacking buff to buff an attribute?
2. become a key mechanic that will rely heavily on Critical damage?
or 3. simply combo into another weaponskill?

Much like DRG has had Jump
MNK has Boost (or in this game, Meditation.)
DRK has Darkside.
etc...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

I'm confused are you talking about Samurai being DPS and Tank roles like roles SMN SCH? (Which will never happen btw)

Or A tank with a better DPS stance?

Also someone should make a straw poll for this.

---

He means two completely separate jobs not even called Samurai (Shogun and Ronin) where one is a Tank and one is a DPS probably branching from a similar base class or even two completely different classes becoming two completely separate roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

We will definately see SAM in the next expansion have an ability called...

***Iai - Draw and slash in one motion. charge to max power for a guaranteed critical.***

Much like DRG has had Jump
MNK has Boost (or in this game, Meditation.)
DRK has Darkside.
etc...

---

The hype would be to real lol

The only way I would want to see Samurai being a tank is if they followed some alternate form of mitigation such as a heavy emphasis on dodging, parrying, blocking, etc... rather than straight up taking damage. Whether active, passive or a mix in-between. But more of the same is just boring.