Uh, well, no. He just has plain, unadorned boots. But if you're all about that, you're going to need to explain why Unukalhai's name has him directly related to Elidibus as the alpha serpentis. And why he can withstand the tempering - by his own words (and actions, considering he was with Krile in range). Ali doesn't have the Echo as far as we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Draxis_Fallspear
[spoilers]3.2 MSQ Discussion/Reaction thread
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03-06-2016, 01:29 PMCyrilLucifer
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03-07-2016, 05:03 AMBerethosThis, perhaps more than any other line, makes me think that most of the Ascians (basically all the black-robed crew) are actually as clueless as to what Zodiark's end goal and true motives are as we are with Hydaelyn's.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
As for Cutest Ascian...of all the things he said, the one about wishing he had the strength for something has me the most curious. What did he fail to do, and how does that impact what he's doing now? I really hope we get an answer to that. -
03-07-2016, 05:48 AMCyrilLuciferI absolutely agree. This has been brought up by multiple people; it really does seem that the darker-robed Ascians are not aware of Zodiark's true will. It's like, say, a soldier fighting for their country loyally, believing wholly in its purpose, but without an idea of the true intentions of the politicians in charge. Hence Elidibus calling Lahabrea a Warrior; he is one who fights, not one whose focus is on diplomacy (very much like our WoL).Quote:
Originally Posted by Berethos
What's most interesting in that line for me is how it actually shows changes in Lahabrea. Forgive the tangent on Best Ascian, hiding it for those who don't want to see an analysis.
What brought that statement from Elidibus on was Minfilia mentioning that Lahabrea did not think terribly highly of the Echo - Elidibus obviously does think somewhat highly of it.
But then when you compare Lahabrea's actions throughout 2.X and 3.0 and then compare Elidibus' line of "Lahabrea may yet learn from his mistakes" - he actually does learn. I mean, I'm fond of calling Laha an idiot and brash, but it's really just me being all tsuntsun. It's clear that Lahabrea really did gain some respect for the power of mortals wielding the Echo, because he started using it to his advantage. Lahabrea did learn from his mistakes and is willing to change his stance. He's not closed-minded at all, but this he's willing to alter his strategy and take advantage of anything he sees fit - including the strength of the mortals (Ysayle) he despises.
Lahabrea is the best.
Well, I fall into the camp that Echo users can ascend into Lesser Ascians under the right circumstances, so my thoughts are obviously biased and highly steeped in crack.Quote:
As for Cutest Ascian...of all the things he said, the one about wishing he had the strength for something has me the most curious. What did he fail to do, and how does that impact what he's doing now? I really hope we get an answer to that.
Working on the assumption he's a Lesser Ascian and not Elidibus (I'm sure someone who believes he is Elidibus can find a theory as well!), the most interesting thing to note is that Unukalhai has a name. This doesn't seem like much, but none of Lahabrea's servants are named, they're titled. What that implies can only be called baseless crackpot and I'm not here to spout my crackpot at you unless you want to hear it, but I have seen others throw the idea around that some Lesser Ascians may be former Warriors of Light from their respective worlds.
So, Unukalhai could have failed to protect his world. Or even our world against Bahamut, as a Warrior from Carteneau.
While I'm not quite sure I would go that far, that's a bit of a stretch to make given the information we have in my opinion, I'm of the belief that Lesser Ascians need to die to become Lesser Ascians, so he may have had some purpose and goal before he was changed and was required to give up his original identity.
I think we can all agree he's not really a child at all. It's just his host, hence him slipping up and calling Krile small. -
03-07-2016, 06:30 AMFrederick22Honeslty I think Lahabrea did not learn anything, and thats why he got killed at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
On his first try he totally underestimate us. But what did he do on the second try? Nothing, only tryed to use a bigger hammer instead. -
03-07-2016, 06:38 AMCyrilLucifer
You're conflating underestimating a foe with not learning. It's not on him that our Blessing became a Super Blessing in 3.0 (possibly from Minfilia's sacrifice) paired with us becoming stronger as well. If anything, he didn't underestimate us in the ARF, hence why he has Igeyorhm with him in order to counter our strength, since it was clear that one Ascian is not enough to take us down. He was definitely more prepared that time. If anything, it was Igeyorhm who underestimated us. Twice. Once after Bismarck, thinking we wouldn't get the Blessing back and that we weren't a threat. The second time was in the ARF when she popped out her dark crystal early.
If it had been Lahabrea with Thordan after Bismarck, we probably wouldn't have survived the encounter. He wanted us dead; Igeyorhm seemed to just want to do her duty (also shown in their pre-battle dialogue in the ARF to further the evidence for this).
He did learn, precisely for the reasons I stated. He started taking advantage of the Echo in mortals, when earlier he was basically just tossing it away as weak. He found mortal use of the Echo useless until we beat him out of Thancred with it.
Lahabrea underestimating us would have been him coming alone, thinking he could defeat us that way. Not learning would have been him continuing to view mortal potential with Echo as worthless. He does neither of these things. -
03-10-2016, 03:51 PMAutumnHarvestwindI havent followed the questlines involving him, but I would personally love to hear your theories on the cute ascian!Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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03-10-2016, 04:34 PMCyrilLucifer
Well, he's Cutest Ascian because he's all awkward and adorable and uncomfortable about how we trust him despite the fact that we clearly, really, really should not. He just doesn't know how to deal with it. Even our character seems to think he's an Ascian when we first encounter him, hence the initial hostility and Urianger having to tell us to be calm.
Since you mentioned not following Unukalhai or his theories, I'll start with a basic rundown on who he is and why I believe he is what he is.
This post is huge. Much bigger than I expected. So, spoilered.
First off, I have that nice post a page or so back that has some Unukalhai dialogue that defends the fact that he's very much not a normal child. Why would a child be our enemy at any given time? Urianger's line is "he's not our enemy - for now." Also, he has no fear of tempering and goes right up to Sephirot with Krile, which she calls him out on - remember, Lahabrea implies Ascians have the Echo in the ARF, and we all remember Elidibus' demonstration in 2.2 about the hidden capabilities of the Echo. Either he's tempered by another primal, which would be quite strange if he was helping us at all in that case, or he is in possession of the Echo. We can state this factually, because the game tells us it in the dialogue. He is not afraid of being tempered.
If you're unfamiliar with his name itself, Unukalhai is the alpha serpentis, one of the two sides of the serpent that are held by the Serpent Bearer, Ophiuchus. As the Ascian names and numbers - eg, Lahabrea corresponds to the 12th - are very much ripped directly from Ivalice, that leaves Zodiark as the 13th, representing Ophiuchus. So there's our direct connection, it's being shoved pretty blatantly in our faces. This is where totally-not-Elidibus-or-his-servant comes into play; the name easily implies he could be Elidibus, or a simple Lesser Ascian follower of Elidibus, as he says he is.
The master-servant relationship in most lines from Unukalhai clears up nothing on if it's Elidibus or a Lesser Ascian. A Lesser Ascian is a servant to his/her Ascian Overlord master; an Overlord is a servant to Zodiark. It's not terribly different from those who serve Hydaelyn, like us, on the Overlords' parts, so don't take it too literally. From what we've seen. Lesser Ascians more directly a serve their Overlord than Zodiark, going about more mundane duties, such as empowering the beast tribes and gifting them the ability to summon primals as we've seen demonstrated in the 2.X Extreme primal series, while the Overlord does other things.
We do know, factually, that Elidibus mentions he wants to Triad dealt with from his quote at the end of 3.1:
Our fates were ordained long ago, Archon. The Garleans are no exception. Nor the Triad. You know what must be done.
After this line in 3.1, if you speak with Urianger in the Sands, he mentions that, even though he knows now that the world is destined to head towards a terrible fate without interference, it is still within their ability to fight it, as if Elidibus is directly showing him how he can do so.
Urianger is seen in 3.2 helping us with Unukalhai's quests, which is quite odd, considering he almost never comes to us directly on primal quests. I'm personally of the belief that now that he is seeing the truth in Elidibus' words.
To further evidence that it's Elidibus involved, remember, in 3.0, the only time we see Elidibus is during the epilogue. What does he say? He needs to clean up after Lahabrea and Igeyorhm. What was the mess that Lahabrea and Igeyorhm left? Thordan attempting to awaken the Triad, hence why he was in the ARF, that's where the Triad core is.
Please note here that I am not making any judgments on why Elidibus wants the Triad dealt with and removed from the picture, that's another theory and not really related to who Unukalhai is, but Elidibus does for some reason or the other. I have my theories that I've posted everywhere, this post is not about that.
Finally, I'm not sure if they changed this when they changed the Ravana and Bismarck quests in 3.1 because I finished them in 3.0, but in order to fight against them again, Unukalhai gifts you items that are relics so ancient even the tribes themselves didn't even know they still existed. Where is a Spoken, let alone a child, going to find such items, let alone know what they are and can be used for?
So. If I've not at least convinced you he's either an Ascian or directly related to them I don't think anything can and you're probably going to be ignoring the evidence that's piling up in search of an undefended alternative.
The issue from there then, is he Elidibus? Is he a Lesser Ascian? Or is he just an Echo user in the service of Elidibus?
I believe it's possible to rule out the last simply because he appears to us as a child. If he appeared to us as an adult, we could not. You'll notice when he speaks to Regula, it's demeaning, not in the sense that Unukalhai is arrogant, but in the sense that he does not view an adult in the way a child views an adult. Krile also notes he's incredibly serene, to the point that no child is. Serenity is almost never an adjective that anyone applies to children of Unukalhai's [host's] age.
There's further evidence of this when you speak with Unukalhai again after the 3.2 Sephirot quest set. He notes that Y'shtola can see changes in aether and hence why it may lead to distrust about who he is. But as far as we know, we've no evidence that Y'shtola can sense an Echo user from a normal individual simply based upon their 'aura.' What she can probably sense is an Ascian in a host due to the way the internal aether flow is (likely) changed.
From there, it's either Elidibus using a child's body, or a separate lesser Ascian using the corpse of a child, because from the SMN questline, lessers can only inhabit corpses.
Personality-wise, building from the serenity comment, you'll notice Unukalhai layers praise on you quite frequently, buttering you up, so to speak. This is very similar to what Elidibus does in 2.1. Elidibus is an Emissary, it's his duty to smooth over negotiations with diplomacy; it makes sense that Unukalhai, as either Elidibus himself or his servant, would share these same traits.
My crackpot is that the Lesser Ascian servant takes on traits of the master, given how all of Lahabrea's servants have a very distinct personality similar to Lahabrea's, where Unukalhai has a personality more similar to Elidibus. I've no real evidence beyond that, though, hence being crackpot, which is something I indulge in quite frequently.
So. Why do I believe he's a Lesser Ascian and not Elidibus? Simply because I'm inclined to trust Unukalhai is who he says he is. He says he serves a friend. Zodiark is not your friend. However, in your shared goal of ridding Eorzea of the Triad, Elidibus is. For now - as Urianger puts it.
Now, on to Krile's assessment:
The first thing you'll notice when you see the dialogue is that Krile assumes she is right. Unukalhai doesn't really confirm or deny anything. She can't even see his features, so maybe there was something intended in the dialogue that implies it, but all he basically says in return is "Is that so.?"
Her assumption lines:
His response?Quote:
Just what are you hiding beneath that mask of yours? Hmmm... A longing for hope. An appetite for power. A lingering sense of regret.
And do I detect a desire to test your strength against a certain hero...?
...Is that what your gifts tell you?
Can we draw assumptions from that? I'm not sure. I wouldn't risk it, because it's easy enough to twist.
As I said, it may be that he doesn't want to challenge the Warrior of Light, he simply expects he must.
A longing for hope? Regret? These are extremely vague and could describe literally any character in the game. Including ours. And the search for power is not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, after all, we do it in every class quest from 30-60. In my opinion, Krile isn't very good at judging personalities, she could very much be describing our character or, say, Thancred, with those same adjectives.
The interesting thing about this scene is that we have Unukalhai's point of view with Regula, rather than ours. So when he makes a comment regarding the Garleans, it's like 'yeah, he's totally right, they're going to interfere!' -but then you forget that no one else, including your character, saw Regula there, which made everyone distrustful of Unukalhai when they didn't need to be. We saw what he saw, we know he's speaking the truth regarding the Garleans. But to the Scions? That's an almost unnatural form of precognition. I just thought this was an neat form of storytelling.
But I digress.
Who do I think Unukalhai is?
Well, as I said, I'm of the belief that Echo users can ascend to Lesser Ascians under the right circumstances with a proper catalyst, of which we know nothing about, due to the cutscene with the Sahagin Elder and particular dialogue in the level 60 SMN quest.
So I believe that at one point he was a mortal Echo user and he did fail at his purpose, which ended in his death. But in doing so, became an Ascian. Does he want to be an Ascian? We don't know; they may be unwilling thralls that serve their Overlord. Lesser Ascians are so interesting and I'd absolutely love more information on them sooner rather than later.
All I can say with a certainty at this point is that Cutest Ascian is shaping up to be our sympathetic Ascian that may give us some moral grey areas with them regarding our character. And that's exactly what I've wanted from the beginning when Elidibus was introduced.
That's exactly what Lesser Ascians do. Chalice is the only exception. The Lesser Ascians in the level 60 SMN quests all user player weapons and animations.Quote:
Ascian showing something like fear and drawing his mage staff just because a garlean legatus shows up? Did any Ascian ever draw a weapon in affect to defend himself?
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03-10-2016, 05:07 PMNeophyte
I don't buy this Unukalhai => (lesser) Ascian, just because of the last cutscene involving him.
An Ascian showing something like fear and drawing his mage staff just because a garlean legatus shows up? Did any Ascian ever draw a weapon on impulse, to defend himself? I don't think so and I think Unukalhai acted all human.
Also this mask-thing... 1) If it's a morphed Elidibus, why wear a mask? Can't you change your face (what we've never seen before anyway), too?
2) If it's anyone else, we won't meet (or haven't met yet) in other circumstances, why wear a mask?
I don't remember precisly, but was it Unukalhai's mask which was picked up from the table in the end of MSQ? I just don't buy this 'an Ascian who dresses up physically, to hide his identity', because.. rly? -
03-10-2016, 05:11 PMFrederick22Its beacuse of the significate of the word "Unukalhai", that everyone has so many doubts about the kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
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03-10-2016, 05:12 PMCyrilLuciferYou're a SMN, come on now. Everything you've said there is answered in the SMN questline. I replied to you above about the weapons, but yes, Lesser Ascians use weapons. Chalice is the only one that doesn't - he's the exception, not the rule. Don't you remember fighting them? You kill off the rest of Lahabrea's Lesser servants alongside Chalice; one uses a Sword (unsurprisingly Sword), the other uses a BLM staff like Unukalhai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
As for the masks - because Lesser Ascians wear masks. Keep in mind they need to inhabit corpses, this likely has something to do with the decay on their face. Though I really think it's more symbolic than anything to do with the condition of the bodies they inhabit. But all Lesser Ascians have the full face mask. We have yet to see an exception under any circumstance when they're robed. The one exception was from 1.0 and things were...different back then. We don't even know if it was a Lesser Ascian.
You seem to be confounding Lesser Ascians and Overlords, I'm not sure why you think they're "dressing up" at all. Can you elaborate on this statement with the above information in mind?
But Unukalhai doesn't show fear to Regula. Where are you getting that? He draws his weapon. That's all.
Read the dialogue again. He's defending himself, but fear? No. Quite the opposite, he tells Regula off.
As for the mask, no it's different. The mask in the ending sequence is a halfmask, Unukalhai's is full.Quote:
I doubt it. You Garleans never learn. You covet the means to enslave primals─but in your headlong dash to control that which you do not understand, you show less wisdom than the very beast tribes that summoned them!
Edit: To Frederick, it's a lot, lot more than that. I have a huge post edited up there with evidence. Also, look at the last page for some quotes. -
03-10-2016, 05:17 PMFrederick22What I have came to think so far is that most ascians ( specialy Lahabrea ) wanted Hydaelyn dead, but Edibudus not. Of coruse that doesnt mean that he doesnt want that Zodiark takes control over all.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Edibudus doesnt seem to see hydaelyn as a parasite but rather a tool. -
03-10-2016, 05:24 PMFJeromeElidibus, unlike the other Ascians, seems genuinely intent on Restoring The Balance (TM), which would mean that Hydaelyn has to survive as she's what balances Zodiark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick22
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03-10-2016, 05:51 PMCyrilLucifer
I absolutely agree with both of you.
To return things to how they should be, in Elidibus' mind, Hydaelyn and Zodiark must become one in some form. I just didn't want to interject my Elidibus goal theories in a post about Unukalhai though, since I was asked about him, not my opinions on what I think he's attempting to do.
Also, apologies for all the typos in that big post, I'm still cleaning it up.
(totally unrelated to anything at all, but did you know that the Black Griffon PvP attire uses the Ascian glove model? How did I never notice this? Thank you, artbook, for showing me the light.) -
03-10-2016, 07:41 PMNeophyte
Ok, i forgot that those ascians back in the SMN quest wear weapons and masks. But it's still odd.
But why does Elidibus need Unulkalai at all?
Why can't Urianger do those things for Elidibus? Why tell Urianger more secrets, if he already placed another spy among us, who he can trust way more?
In your theory Unulkalai and Urianger are fulfilling exactly the same purpose: Tell us something to do, based on Elidibus' information.
There is absolutely no need for two spokesman of Elidibus to 'control' us.
Also Elidibus has his WoDs to take care of unwanted summonings... Why should he sometimes use us (Sephiroth, 2nd summoning of Bis/Rav) and sometimes them (3rd summonong of Ravana).
It's just a little too much: WoD + Urianger + Unulkalai, all sided with Elidibus, just to let us slay primals or slay them thereself.
Because that's exactly what we're doing anyway. Elidibus could literally drop a letter on our doorstep with 'Attention: new primal threat detected' and we would take care of it.
What about Y'shtola? Shouldn't she notice something odd, if he's a corpse with an ascian within? -
03-10-2016, 08:08 PMCyrilLuciferQuote:
Originally Posted by Neophyte
I don't believe Urianger is 'sided' with Elidibus, so to speak, however he recognizes that Elidibus has knowledge that we need and is speaking the truth in some regards. He tells you that if you speak to him in the Sands; he doesn't mention Elidibus by name but because we have external knowledge as players, we know who he is referring to. He probably believes it is beneficial to continue communications for the sake of everyone and even Hydaelyn, since it's likely the other Scions wouldn't listen as aptly.
A few reasons for why Elidibus is doing things the way he is:
1. It keeps Elidibus himself free to do other things. It's the same with Lahabrea; he used his Lessers to deal with the boring daily Ascian things, like, say, spying on you, or teaching Primals how to summon while he went and dealt with spoken politics. Lahabrea was arrogant enough to even leave Nabriales to this job. That seems quite demeaning and it probably explains why Nabriales was annoyed with Lahabrea.
2. Elidibus also doesn't do it himself because why should we trust him? The last time we saw him, we drew our weapon against him, and that was only after 2.0 when the only Ascian we had encountered was Lahabrea.
3. It keeps you busy and unable to interfere with him. It's better if you're doing what you do best in slaying Gods than having you actively attempting to interfere with him or his WoDs.
Why is he laying this all on us?
Because we have 3 Ascians dead. Elidibus doesn't want to take chances and lose any more. He's pulling everything he can out to reach his goals, even if it requires playing extremely defensively and throwing everything he can at the source of the issue. It does not benefit Elidibus in any way to directly meddle with you, given we'll likely be hostile. I mean, let's be honest here, even if he told us every word of the truth in one Eorzea-shattering scene, why should we believe him? We have no reason to.
If you don't believe Unukalhai is related to Elidibus, finally, how to you explain his name and its direct relation with Zodiark? How do you explain him spouting Elidibus quotes at us and why Urianger mentions we need to trust Unukalhai (again, speaking to him in the Sands after 3.1/3.2)?
So, who do you think our dear Alpha Serpentis is? A simple boy with a gift who happens to have relics so ancient that no one even knew they existed anymore (3.0 Ex primal triggers)?
. . .Then who is this boy's master? And why does this boy's master know the things he knows pertaining to 'the fate of this very star?' And why does his 'gift' allow him to resist primal tempering?
I actually mentioned this in my big post. You're quite right, Unukalhai specifically goes over this and it's one reason why the Scions are distrustful of him.Quote:
What about Y'shtola? Shouldn't she notice something odd, if he's a corpse with an ascian within?
He changes his dialogue to have this when you ask him about himself and finish 3.2's quest:
I was wondering this same question myself, but SE beat me to the punch in answering it. That they even chose to cover it solidified my reasoning that he is a Lesser Ascian rather than Elidibus - though I still can't rule Second Best Ascian out entirely.Quote:
There are those such as Archon Y'shtola, of course, who are sensitive to [aetheric] shifts, and remain suspicious of my motives. . .
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03-10-2016, 09:07 PMCyrilLucifer
Wait a second. I apologize for the double post, but SE added the Unukalhai/Regula cutscene to the Unending Journey. Check the patch notes. I actually didn't see it in the notes until I was looking through my Unending Journey and saw the quest now had 3 clicks instead of 2 and went to check.
Good news for all of you who skipped the cutscene randomly, since I know there were at least 2-3 of you on the Lore forums who mentioned accidentally skipping it.
Now SE, just add him being cute to the Unending Journey and all will be forgiven. I'll be waiting. -
03-10-2016, 09:29 PMNeophyteThis doesn't explain why he needs Unulkalai: Urianger was doing all this already for him.. telling us when extreme primals show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
He doesn't need to convice us of the truth(tm), he convinced an ally of us already, which the WoL/the Scions trusts.
He doesn't need us to slay primals anymore, because he has the WoDs (which do nothing anyway, except spying on us (because Urianger + Ulukalai are totally not enough to track our moves) and slaying primals themselfs saitama-style (like literally with one punch).
That's the big question. What makes me think is, SE didn't make any effort to hide the connection between Urianger/Elidibus or give us any strong hints, before it was shown directly in cutscene.Quote:
If you don't believe Unukalhai is related to Elidibus, finally, how to you explain his name and its direct relation with Zodiark? How do you explain him spouting Elidibus quotes at us and why Urianger mentions we need to trust Unukalhai (again, speaking to him in the Sands after 3.1/3.2)?
So, who do you think our dear Alpha Serpentis is? A simple boy with a gift who happens to have relics so ancient that no one even knew they existed anymore (3.0 Ex primal triggers)?
. . .Then who is this boy's master? And why does this boy's master know the things he knows pertaining to 'the fate of this very star?' And why does his 'gift' allow him to resist primal tempering?
Now there's Unulkalai, doing exactly the same thing as Urianger before, but now it's all mystery with hidden hints like connection of names and stuff.
We know already that Elidibus manipulates or uses people we trust to pass us information about ex primals or the truth(tm).
It's just odd to have two characters doing the same thing (passing information from Eldibus to the WoL), one where the connection is punched right into your face (Urianger) and one where it's hidden.
I know that this are no lore-based assumptions, more storytelling-wise assumptions, but I just don't buy it and feel we're getting a red herring there. ^^
Future will tell, I think. -
03-10-2016, 09:51 PMCyrilLucifer
As for the top part: The answer is right there in Unukalhai's dialogue. He wasn't expecting Krile to be versed in operating Allagan technology and we needed someone to help awaken the Fiend. Unukalhai was the one intended to do that. So yes, he's playing an active role. He's not just sitting around telling us to do things, spying on us, and leaking us information like you're saying he is, he went to Azys Lla with us and showed us where to go. Urianger couldn't see Elidibus' will through there because he lacks the Echo, so Urianger is out as an option for aiding us against the Triad, all he can do is push us to trust Unukalhai - which he does.
And we don't really know how strong the WoDs are on Hydaelyn; we don't know if they would be capable of stopping the Triad, that's a pretty big assumption based off of very little evidence because we don't know anything about them in comparison to our strength. When we encountered them, we had just had an Echo vision and when you have an Echo vision, you go passive and stop moving, basically completely vulnerable. Then when you awaken, you're disoriented. Keep in mind that we solo'd Ravana, too (gameplay and story segregation; I can link you to another thread about why it's basically not possible for some of these battles to have anyone but the WoL in it, Ravana story mode is one of them; arguably the Ex versions, too, since our relic was destroyed when we attuned and it's not like there was more than one relic for others to attune with). So it's not like they're doing anything we haven't.
As for the bottom -
The difference is this:
Unukalhai serves Elidibus. Or, his master, if you prefer. He is loyal to his master, and we don't know if his master has any connection to Hydaelyn or our goals or anything, just that his master is extremely knowledgeable about things very few people are and is mysteriously quoting Elidibus.
Urianger serves Hydaelyn and the people or Eorzea. He is not loyal to Elidibus. He has a different role entirely. Think of meeting a new person. When your friend vouches for them, you're more likely to trust them, right? Same thing here. This is Urianger's purpose. He is not Elidibus' ally, Elidibus cannot rely on Urianger to do what he wants him to do because they have different goals. Elidibus can only guide, and guiding isn't reliable.
Also, narration is entirely the reason why Unukalhai is "hidden," as you say. We have quite a few scenes from Elidibus' point of view (and even one from Lahabrea's!) - our character does not know what we know. This is the big thing. Our character does not know that Urianger is messing around with Elidibus. It's not, as you say, obvious. Unukalhai is Elidibus speaking to and interacting with our character. The scenes we have with Elidibus and Urianger are from Elidibus' PoV and it's SE speaking to us players. That is why one is blatant and the other is not.
Well, I agree to disagree, but a red herring that completely negates piles of evidence just for the sake of shock value isn't a red herring, it's bad storytelling. While I can admit that that SE doesn't always have the most solid narrative structure due to being limited as a MMO, they don't flat out lie to you in the foreshadowing department. Most twists this game are foreshadowed quite well - even something crazy and unexpected like Estinihogg isn't pulled completely out of a random behind, considering it was made clear early on that a dragon's lifeforce is in their eyes. Ul'dah was very actively foreshadowed as well; it was clear there were huge problems to those who were looking for it. Even Lahabrea was foreshadowed! You can see his dark crystal on Thancred's neck for a very short window of time before Titan.
I think the only stupid twist that wasn't foreshadowed that I can think of was G'raha's final decision - and even the twist of his ancestry was so heavily foreshadowed it was screaming at us and hitting us over the head with a bat. Just like Unukalhai. One reason why the twist of his final decision was so stupid was precisely because it wasn't foreshadowed, it had no backing to it whatsoever. If anything, it was completely contradictory to the independent character we knew. That is bad storytelling, and that is what will happen if Unukalhai isn't related to Elidibus.
Narratively speaking, if we're going on SE's previous history regarding plot twists, the twist itself isn't going to be that he's related to Elidibus, because that's the obvious one that SE isn't trying to hide, but that, for example, he's going to die for us (because SE loves those grand sacrifices) or something similar, showing that not all Ascians are horrible. -
03-10-2016, 10:38 PMLineageRazorWhile this was likely a typo, I now totally want to see a Primal summoned by other Primals. Like some kind of Primal^2. It'll temper other Primals into an unstoppable Primal army, and eventually there'll be an offshoot camp of non-tempered Primals that we'll end up doing daily quests for, and...Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
I'll stop now. :o -
03-10-2016, 10:51 PMCyrilLuciferI honestly gave up trying to proofread that post, I wouldn't be surprised if it had so many absurd typos in there. But yes, it's a typo.Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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03-10-2016, 11:05 PMFenralAww, someone beat me to it. <3Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
But yeah, there's still a part of me that expects Cutest Ascian to pull something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Unukalhai?
because we're all idiots with the memories of goldfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urianger?
Just because we think there's no way a "side" character can have relevance to a major MSQ thread and still disappear without a trace, doesn't mean they won't try something like that again just to be unexpected. -
03-10-2016, 11:16 PMCyrilLucifer
I don't expect him to survive just because I don't trust SE's narrative structure. They've done just that to side characters consistently.
Now, you know what would be a brutal twist, with far more impact than him dying some heroic sacrifice for us?
Having dealt with the Garlean and Triad problems together and showing that he's a genuine, true friend, despite our differing existences, Unukalhai survives and has to return to his master and stays to fight by his side when we challenge him. Preferably with lots of pained and hesitant dialogue whenever we have to face him in-battle.
That would be heartwrenching in a way that a sacrifice wouldn't be, since we'd have just killed a friend for our purposes. SE will never do it, it's easier and more plot convenient to get rid of him early, and I understand that. -
03-11-2016, 01:07 AMBerethosA conclusion that I still disagree with - both Ifrit and Ravana have spots where you can sneak out to get reinforcements, and are both mentioned by NPCs as such (Flame soldier and Ysale respectively).Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Since he steps into his arena to await your challenge, you have the opportunity to grab those reinforcements. -
03-11-2016, 02:30 AMMorningstar1337Does Bahamut summoning Phoenix count?Quote:
Originally Posted by LineageRazor
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03-11-2016, 02:55 AMBelhi
They have always been kind of vague on the soloing part. One thing that stood out to me with Sephirot is they actually mention your 'gifted adventurer allies'. Does that mean that lore wise we know a bunch of Adventurer who are blessed by the echo because this came right after they were talking about how they couldn't enter due to the risk of being tempered.
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03-11-2016, 04:06 AMCyrilLucifer
I actually feel like SephEx was blatant like that precisely to clear up some misgivings.
But still, Ravana Ex? Bismarck Ex? Spoken need to be attuned to teleport somewhere. The only way you can attune to those fights and enter the arena through the use of those ancient relic - relics which are destroyed after you use them.
And ARF? That's a completely different mess of trying to consider more than one person entering. To justify that one you need to break the laws of the in-game universe or twist your mind around some pretty weird situations. -
03-11-2016, 04:09 AMAutumnHarvestwindgreat theory, that was a really well-thought and interesting read!Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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03-11-2016, 04:10 AMFenralYou used the Echo to split each member of your 4-man party in two when you realized the bigger gun was necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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03-12-2016, 07:44 AMNalienWhat? I remember an entirely different course of events; We smashed the relic against the aetherytes and then got some humorous dialog along the lines of "Nothing happens, so out of habit you just attune to the aetheryte". It actually makes me wonder what was up with those relics, because they seemingly did nothing... Taking a look at the journal;Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Quote:
To prevent the awakening of the Warring Triad, Bismarck must be cast down once more, and Unukalhai declares that you shall slay him using the same methods as before. The boy then furnishes you with a large gemstone and bids you show it to Chief Sonu of the Zundu, in case he is feeling reluctant to give you all that you require.
Chief Sonu believes the gemstone in your possession is a relic of great power. If smashed against a Vundu aetheryte nestled in the Whale's Crown, it will render Bismark vulnerable... Yet, upon further reflection, you recall no mention of this white whale's newfound invulnerability prior to this. That said, if the primal does have some form of protection, it will need to be circumvented before he can be defeated. Inform Cid of your new task.
Cid seems poised to explain in detail how Chief Sonu's request makes no sense whatsoever. However, he instead hazards that it might bring you good luck.
With all your might, you smash the gemstone against the aetheryte...and nothing much happens. Out of habit, you attune with the aetheryte..and again, nothing much happens. If your actions had any meaning, it remains to be seen. In any case, Cid is waiting.
So first thing, none of this is what Unukalhai told us to do... Wonder if he'll be mad about that eventually... "Quick, we can only stop Regula van Kefkus with those relics I gave you!"Quote:
Unukalhai bids you return to Thok ast Thok, where the resurgent Lord of the Hive builds his strength in eager anticipation. Doubtful that the act of surrendering will fool the Gnath a second time, the boy presents you with a gemstone, the Burning Eye of Ravana, and sends you to speak with the elder of the Nonmind. Travel to Loth ast Vath, and consult with the Vath storyteller about a new path into Ravana's domain.
You speak with the Vath elder, and he tells you of an aetheryte found inside a sacred cave on the far side of the colony. He warns you, however, that the wards placed upon the crystalline structure will admit only the most worthy of warriors...whatever that might mean. Make your way to the Gynehive in Loth ast Gnath, and attune to the Gnathic aetheryte.
You smash the gemstone against the aetheryte...and nothing much happens. You then proceed to attune to the aetheryte without difficulty, the invisible wards seemingly satisfied by the sacrifice of Unukalhai's bauble. Prove yourself now a worthy challenger, an vanquish the unbridled Wrath of the Colony!
Secondly, we didn't need them to attune. The Vanu believed smashing theirs would weaken Bismarck, while the Vath simply believe we need to be worthy, if there truly were invisible wards preventing us from attuning (why the hell didn't we try attuning first?!) one would assume our friends could attune in the opening we provided by smashing the thing anyway (I certainly did that quest with friends right after Bismarck).
Given how much emphasis they put on these though... I really wonder if they'll have some deeper meaning later on... Perhaps it was just a joke to liven up the typical "Go attune for the fight!", similar to Tidus and Levibetus? Perhaps Unukalhai merely gave them to us to have the tribes help us, perhaps we were meant to hold onto them to absorb some of Bismarck/Ravana's power after slaying them?
Anyway... On the topic of having friends in fights... I think we tend to have friends along for the ride with this stuff... They're not shown in cutscenes for practicalities sake, but lore wise I'm incline to think we're the leader of our own Free Company and when we get a quest, our members are standing right besides us ready to help. Alternatively the Duty Finder takes a leaf from Bravely Default (speaking of, can Bravely Third come out on a console with a battery life that doesn't make me hate everything? I want to keep playing Bravely Second T_T) and our Echo power just grants us the ability to call upon alternate reality Warriors of Light to help us... With them leaning more and more towards adding a "You and your friends did it!" narrative with fights (Steps of Faith was a prime example), I'm incline to think we're never solo in these things. Either we just have friends around all the time, or the Echo did it, probably a mix of the two. It simply isn't practical for cutscenes to cover this sort of thing though, they could include party members in cutscenes and alter dialog based on them being there, but I'd rather they work on something more meaningful (like taking Fencer and Wizard from Bravely Second and melding them together into a glorious Red Mage Job for 2.0, yes I want it that early...).
Remember that Heavensward artwork with the group riding Midgardsormr? Yeah, I'm going with that. We had some friends with us in the lead up to Tiamat (perhaps they kept some Garleans off our backs during the random solo instance with Regula that only existed to have him run off like Kefka, rather than have him question what the flip just happened to his shiny new warship... Why did he not care that Ysayle summoned Shiva, again?) and then we all just jumped on Middy to rush to Flagship... Perhaps one party went off a different direction when exploring the place, and we met back up when Thordan showed up to explain the 4 man into 8 man shift (in reality they nerfed ARF from Praetorium level "Why are our raids so bad when this is so good?" awesomeness into a cheap dungeon and epic Trial). How they got out is another matter... Teleporting is a thing though, we even directly see Derplander using it, so I'd say our friends just hit Return after we delivered our coup de gravy to Thordan, because they're merely Adventurer's, just there for the non-existent loot, while we're the Warrior of Light, who needs to deal with the aftermath in cutscenes. Echo hacks would better explain how we're all Warriors of Light, of course, but unless we get a direct mention of Bravely Default level parallel world hacks, I'm leaning much more heavily towards "My friends are farming dragonskins while I'm in a cutscene with Tiamat". We could simply break down the barriers that divide worlds in that small pocket (why we can't leave the area, perhaps?) to find 3~7 other versions of "us" in order to overcome extreme odds... Certainly fun to theorize either way, but either way I'm fairly certain we're not alone (yes I put that in italics just to reference FFIX, and yes I added this just to remind people that FFIX is the best) in any instances...Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
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03-12-2016, 10:16 AMCyrilLuciferIt didn't really seem humorous to me, if it was intended to be it was lost in translation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
I see there to be two purposes for the ancient relics:
1. Another one of those hints that Unukalhai is definitely not a normal boy. As if we really needed another with everything hitting us hard as a tank's Da'at splash. These relics are so ancient the beast tribes didn't know they still existed, how did Unukalhai or his 'master' come to have them in his possession?
2. I've mentioned this in threads before, but did the fact that we used something of a ritual of sacrifice to encounter Primals signal bright flashing red lights at anyone else? I feel like this is kind of the point, there's something really odd going on there. Especially when paired with Totally-not-Elidibus-or-his-servant being totally-not-an-Ascian-we-swear and the entire 2.X Ex primal series teased at the Ascians teaching new rituals for summoning at us.
Back in 3.0 I toyed with the idea that we helped in strengthening the primals based upon Lahabrea's ARF dialogue - that we're always looking for more and stronger foes to fight, but at the same time that doesn't particularly make sense, especially after 3.1 (WoDs banishing them) and 3.2. Why would he want us to strengthen the Primals and risk getting hurt if he wants us to deal with the Triad later?
The mystery of Unukalhai's relics is one of those most irksome for me.
PS: FFV is best. -
03-12-2016, 01:49 PMNalienI definitely don't think us smashing the gems had anything to do with the power up from hard to extreme, since both Ravana and Bismarck were shown in combat prior to our initial fight with them; Ravana took on Shiva, and we saw the Garlean ships chasing Bismarck. They were both softened up for us the first time, the extreme version was just us going against them for real.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Based on the other half of the Diabolical Bismarck journal, I actually wonder if this is more a case of just doing things as they were written;
Now... That has me casting doubts on what is really going on here with Elidibus and Urianger... Giving us the means to fulfill prophecy? Lets hope that's limited to Vanu legend, and not a certain piece of apocrypha that's seemingly being used to unite us against a common enemy... Plot twist, the Warring Triad is our Crystalism and we just botched the Rite of Awakening, just as planned... What have you done to me, Airy?!Quote:
Chief Sonu reveals that in returning to Ok'Zundu with the Weeping Eye of the Manukmani, you were fulfilling an ancient prophecy. Legend has it that a Vanu elder once cast the eyes into the Sea of Clouds, proclaiming that they would return to the Vanu in the possession of a hero, who would then deliver them from destruction. And so, your battle with the White shall be preserved and passed down from generation to generation, doubtless growing greater with each telling...
Your victory was written in the aether, and Unukalhai read it long before you returned. Yet you know all too well not to rejoiuce overmuch in the accomplishment, for such treats are wont to return again and again.
PS: Best pre-3D, perhaps... -
03-12-2016, 02:15 PMCyrilLucifer
The idea of which things being pre-ordained and what he really means by balance and the 'fate of this very star' is and has always been the entire issue regarding Elidibus.
I've used that Elidibus quote three times in the thread about how Urianger knows what must be done regarding fate, but here we go again:
Then, right after this cutscene (3.1 ending) you go to the Sands and get this gem from Urianger:Quote:
Originally Posted by Second Best Ascian
So from what we're told by Urianger and what we know, the only conclusion I can draw is that a horrible fate is written and Elidibus seems to actually want to avoid it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urianger
Hence why there's always the argument on these forums on if the Ascians are fighting for or against fate.
What it all comes back to, in every thread, is that Ascians are not a hive mind. Lahabrea seemed to want to bring this fate on - by his will, not His will; Elidibus seems to be supporting a means to bring that fate upon Hydaelyn in a different way, else why would he be telling Urianger about it and likely that there are ways to stop it?
Regarding the fate comments -
Unukalhai mentions that you were also fulfilling your fate by killing Thordan. The quote is actually interesting:
But who is 'we' referring to? Urianger and Elidibus? Hydaelyn? Ascians in general?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutest Ascian
That's why my best guess is what it is; you can't break the laws of the universe, fighting fate directly is impossible. However, you can alter its flow. Elidibus doesn't want Hydaelyn gone, it's bad because then he can't have his balance. He doesn't seek the ultimate destruction of everything - that is bad for his master, too. Now once Zodiark is revived? Well, who knows. He might. -
03-12-2016, 02:27 PMFenralI have a feeling Urianger wouldn't be talking about fighting destiny if he had been assured everything was going according to plan. Usually, a book becomes "apocrypha" when it says something that people don't want to hear, or contradicts something commonly held to be true. If going according to destiny was such a great thing for the world, the Gerun Oracles would never have become apocrypha.\Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
Only counterarguments I can think of involve citing either Tales of the Abyss or Kingdoms of Amalur. Both involve worlds with a set-in-stone "end of the world" approaching (literally in Abyss's case). In Tales of the Abyss, the one person with the good sense to try and fight back (by trying to destroy destiny itself) actually ended up being the primary cause of the foretold destruction, and in either case it took the intervention of someone who, for various plot reasons, wasn't recorded in fate to push the world past its deadline.
So while we most certainly have no choice but to fight whatever horrible fate awaits us, if it's written down in any detail our struggle against it could very well be as well, barring the existence of some loophole that Eldibus almost surely seeks to exploit. Hell, even if he does simply want to take over the world for himself, there has to be a world left for him to take over. -
03-12-2016, 02:49 PMAutumnHarvestwind((*spits out coffee* i love tales of the abyss thank you for using that example okay i am back to lurking))Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
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03-12-2016, 03:11 PMCyrilLucifer
Ooh Amalur. That game is certainly a very fascinating exercise of looking at fate.
Even the ability to defy it is somewhat similar to our Echo, what with tearing the fabric of existence.
I actually found some of the themes in that game regarding fate to be terribly disturbing. -
03-12-2016, 03:44 PMNalienFairly sure Lahabrea just wanted to bring about the next Rejoining, same as Nabriales... He didn't want to release the Warring Triad, quite the opposite in fact, he took Thordan to Azys Lla to absorb them. The very same thing we were apparently stopping Bismarck and Ravana from doing, so why is Thordan OK to drink that sweet sweet aether, but Bismarck and Ravana aren't? Well, Thordan was under their control, or so they thought, while Bismarck and Ravana simply aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
What does that have to do with the Rejoining, though? Well, same thing Tupsimati had to do with the Rejoining... Nabriales wanted that staff for the Rejoining, and all we know is that it could channel vast quantities of aether... There's out connections; What was the first thing Thordan did as God-King? No, not off Lahabrea just as he was becoming interesting. He forged the Ascalon... A sword capable of absorbing and channeling nigh limitless quantities of aether... Pretty similar to Tupsimati in that regard...
We also don't actually know what is motivating Elidibus to "help" us with the Triad. I know they're not a hive mind, but not a single one of them has ever given me reason to trust them in the slightest; Manipulating people from the shadows is their game. Urianger rightly says that we're ignorant in all this, but lets not forget why we're ignorant; The Ascians have facilitated seven Calamities, six of which eventually lead to the downfall of civilization (whether the seventh will is yet to be seen). We're ignorant because the Ascians keep hitting the reset button on human civilization. These aren't the actions of people who want to help us, they're the actions of people who want to manipulate us. Put people in a situation where they have no other source of information, and they have to go along with whatever "truth" you spout. Elidibus apparently knows the truth, and hasn't told us. He wants to stop the Triad, but he hasn't told us why... Seeing a pattern in his behavior? He keeps us entirely in the dark, but offers just enough information to have us listening to him. Why? So he can undo the mountain of sh*t Ascians have done over the eras by pulling an "Everybody lives!" scenario out of his robe? Hell no, just like Lahabrea let us forge the Blessing of Light so he could unleash Ultima on Hydaelyn, just as planned, Elidibus is likely just playing us.
Not that it's impossible for the Triad and Garleans to be an issue for Elidibus as well, it's just the organization, and the individual, have given me no reason to place trust in either. Thordan was smart in that regard, at least. Lahabrea was obviously playing him; "Hey, this Primal power will help you win your war and any future wars! I have no ulterior motive in giving you this strength, you can trust me!", but Thordan saw through it and turned on Lahabrea the moment he got what he needed (a means to end conflict). Where I perhaps place trust in the Triad being an issue for Elidibus comes entirely from what he has said in monologue (or to Derplander, not sure). Lahabrea failed and now he has to clean up the mess... The whole plot seemed to hinge on Lahabrea succeeding, and Elidibus supported Lahabrea to that end. Plan failed though, and now something dangerous might get out. The entire Triad plot seems to center on the concept of absorbing the Triad; We stopped Bismarck and Ravana because they were apparently working towards that goal in Thordans wake. Why did we have to wake Sephirot up and fight him right away? Because the two others would still be sleeping and in prime position for absorbing, what is the extreme version? An Allagan training simulation based on "What if Sephirot got more powerful, by perhaps absorbing another Triad member". I could see all this being of concern for Elidibus, especially seeing as Thordan could swat away Ascians like it was nothing. Do I think his goals align with ours in the slightest, though? No, not yet and likely not ever. If this isn't some ridiculous plot (like having Kidibus/Regula absorb the Triad to become the next unwitting Thordan), then I find it more likely that it's just a matter of self preservation. Lock two sworn enemies in a room with a hungry tiger in a cage that's clearly about to fall apart, and they'll work together to deal with the common threat, but they're still sworn enemies.
Can you quote where this is said, or even implied? Recently he has gone on about "the fate of this star" a lot, but that really doesn't imply "I want Hydaelyn to live!" to me... It's fairly neutral really, were it not for his history... His talk of balance was also direct at us, not some grand cosmic scale between Light and Dark, not to mention it's seemingly an entirely warped point of view; "They didn't die! We need to restore balance! We can't have someone this capable at stopping us! We might actually have to communicate with them properly if that's the case!". Balance would be the old unstoppable object/unmovable object thing, which is far from the current state of affairs... They've essentially taken us for a ride this entire time (something Hydaelyn backs up, claiming to have failed seven times), and we just start pushing back and that's throwing balance out of whack? No, we're pushing towards balance, but naturally the ones with all the power don't like that... The "balance" Elidibus speaks of really doesn't seem like anything other than the "We've had all the power up till now, we can't have them upsetting that now!" kind, rather than the equality kind... The Isles of Val are just straight up gone, seemingly on a whim... Elidibus can hold onto is "but balance!" card for when I'm able to turn the Sea of Tranquility into a black void for shits and giggles...Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer
Eh, I've been speculating that the Ascians are simply against death as a concept. There used to be no death, then Hydaelyn did her thang and death became a thing, and that scared the crap out of them, so they resisted Hydaelyn and seek to return things to how they were. As mortals though, we need death. We're incompatible with their world, so they can kill us by the millions. Echo users can perhaps overcome that, explain the whole "We'd be of one mind" thing. I don't think he wants to rule the world, he merely wants a world that doesn't have an expiration date. He is "of this world" after all, at one point he probably had friends and family, and they probably all died while he remained... Why care about people who'll just die? Wouldn't a world where nobodies dies be better? Well no, I don't think it would... Immortality is a curse I wouldn't wish on anyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral
Again, I see this heading towards a FFVI conclusion... -
03-12-2016, 04:05 PMCyrilLucifer
It's the combination of two quotes.
First, look at Lahabrea in the ARF. We even have a quest named after his very quote. The very quest you save Minfilia during, even.
What is Lahabrea referring to, when he says that he he seeks the "return to as it once was?" A time when all of the "reflections" didn't exist (hence the purpose of rejoining, to destroy them), before any barriers existed in the first place for the Ascians to destroy?
We have the answer from Hydaelyn herself! She was kind enough to grace us with this answer, if no others:
Before there was life, in the depths of the aetherial sea, Light and Dark did once dwell as one.
If you want more specific quotes, I believe the first few pages have the translation of the non-English lines where Hydaelyn specifies even more the above about Rejoinings, barriers, and reflections. The Rejoining is not the destruction of Hydaelyn, but the destruction of alternate worlds/planes so that Zodiark can regain what was taken from him. Hence, "the star we did cry out, and barriers 'twixt planes chance to shatter." We have a Midgardsormr situation here with the English version being pretty vague and non-English being more specific. If you'd like I'll find the quotes for you.
On this subject, I'm actually wondering if we're the 'original' plane at all. We might have a FFXI thing going on here and we're not the original plane. I don't think Hydaelyn ever called ours the original, did she? Since there should be 1 original + 13 reflections.
I don't think he wants Hydaelyn to continue living I think he wants her to continue existing. Because you can't return to as it once was, as it ever should have remained unless you have both parts of the whole that make up the initial equation of the universe.
That being said, the initial state of the universe may or not be conductive for life, as it seems life was created after it. We can't make any assumptions about what happens after. However, from putting Lahabrea's quote and Hydaelyn's admission together, we can tell that is their purpose: to return to when Light and Dark did once dwell as one - but you can't be one when the light part of the equation is gone; 1+0 will never be 2. -
03-12-2016, 04:27 PMNalien
See, I'm fairly dubious as to what their goal even is at that point... Return things to when Light and Dark were as one? Well, Hydaelyn could always have lied to us, but Zodiark was the aggressor before all this... He coveted power, he upset the balance and "forced" Hydaelyn to banish him and sunder reality... Given how they clearly view Zodiark in a much better light than Hydaelyn, what's the goal here? How is this about balance when they're seeking to restore the one who originally upset that balance? They want to "revive the one true god", not "restore balance between the two true gods".
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03-12-2016, 04:42 PMCyrilLucifer
I think that's the point. The revival of their God is the final goal, but that requires the destruction of all of the barriers/reflections surrounding Hydaelyn's "Source," via Hydaelyn herself.
Zodiark longeth to be made whole. For His resurrection, for His restoration, his servants labor without cease.
By destroying these barriers to revive their God, the side effect is that Zodiark will be 'made whole,' returning to as it once was, as it ever should have remained, his connection to the Source (which Hydaelyn seems to have full control over at the moment) restored. Or maybe it's the opposite, as I believe Lahabrea seems to be implying - becoming 'whole' will revive their God, as a side effect. Same result either way, details details.
Now, again, once that happens and Zodiark returns to become "whole" with the Source, I don't think anyone can make any predictions. Will life cease to exist? Can we go about our daily business with 'the Source' restored? I have no idea.
Maybe I misinterpreted it, but to me, what seems to hurt Hydaelyn most is the destruction of her children over the reflections. Those are still lives, those are still individuals destroyed.
(Also, whenever I discuss destroying reflections, Tales of Xillia 2 is always brought to mind and how we destroy millions of 'fake' worlds filled with our friends and individuals in order to preserve one. Anyone else?) -
03-12-2016, 05:00 PMMorningstar1337That was also the first thing that came to mind when I got to that plot pointQuote:
Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer