The issue nobody wants to address

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

But that's different, people play games to relax and have fun...

I would like to see how much fun would underperforming dps players have if I stopped healing their skin in aoes, or if I would only manage healer's enmity while tanking. Of course there are bad tanks and healers too, but these usually don't last long - because it is "too much pressure" to be responsible for victories and deaths.

---

You're assuming I don't have fun at work or at competitions...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

What's your stance on forcing others to carry you through content?

---

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers, as for forcing others to do anything, I'd have thought you would have figured out by now where I stand on forcing anyoneto do anything, I clearly am against it. Before you have a littl aha moment, a player who in a group is unable to complete the content on their own is forcing no one to do anything, that is one of the things vote kicking is for.

Quote:

---

That's imo also kind of bulling and exploitation of others - and that's also something which does exist right now (in comparison to theoretical parsers).

---

ROTFLMAO! So, you're telling me that if some dps player has such deplorable damage output rather than votekicking them and replacing them with a readily available DPS player, you'llcower before there poor skill level and feel bullied into carrying them through content? Don't be ridicuolous. Your paper thin arguement for general parser use is bad enough, but attempting to turn things around to play the victim card just takes things to a whole new level. Instead of coming up with ridiculous assertions such as this, why don't you address the points I made, if you can.

Quote:

---

Players clear content that their performance does not allow. Imagine that better players would scale their performance to this level. Tanks would let mobs run around without any effort to taunt more than one, everybody would stand in aoes, healers wouldn't be able to heal through it - if they cared to heal others than just the tank - etc etc. Progression scaled down to the bottom would be really interesting to see.

---

Go back and read what I wrote about the possible responses by those confronted with your silver bullet parser data. You haven't addressed that at all, instead you ignore it and imagine that no one could possibly doubt your parser analysis. Your lack of understanding of people not withstanding, your inability or unwillingness to adrress the logical points made simply re-emphasizes what I've prevously posted about some pro-parser posters ignoring any possible downside to them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Lmao pointing out someone's flaws or giving criticism is BULLYING now. Wow, feeling pressured means you're getting bullied?

I feel pressure all the time at work, or when I'm representing a region's skill level in a competition.

That does not mean I'm being bullied.

---

You should do some simple research on peer pressure and bullying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

But that aside, and I am a little tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. Why are you talking of critisism to me? What part of the numbers being avalible for all to see means one party is critisizing another. Actually that you even lead in with this means you didn't read or at the very least misunderstood the post.

---

What part of SE doesn't want parsers used to criticize, critique orpressure other players in their game did you not understand? So any in-game parser they provide will almost certainly NOT provide invidually identifiable parsed damage, it will most likely be party based. Since you want to say I did not read or understand one ormore posts, may I ask precisely why you completely ignore the very many instance that demonstrate the obvious down sides to general parser use.

Quote:

---

Numbers being readily avalible to the party is not critisizing the party. They are what they are, people don't need you to point out if their numbers are lower if they are right there for them to see. So the whole critisizing (at least as far as you were responding to my post) thing is out the window.

---

What is your basis for imagining that there will ever be general availability of parser data for all players? The many instances where players have been disciplined over parser misuse should be adequate evidence that this will not happen. Or do you intend to ignore that as well?

Quote:

---

Parsers aren't what turn people into a-holes, they already are a-holes, a parser is a number they can put in their rants. Also, SE adding a parser doesn't mean in any way they are condoning people abusing others with it. You can still report people you realise. Sorry if I seem curt, but every argument against parsers seems to get regurgitated by a new person every couple of pages.

---

You don't seem curt, you seem to be willfully ignoring any and all arguments against general parser use. I agree that parsers don't make people a-holes. However a-holes make parsers tools of abuse, and there are more a-holes around than you think. Internet anonymity emboldens many more people not normally like that to act like idiots without fear of the consequence. There is a significant downside to parsers which is why private use of them is by far less problematic than general use. I prevously recognized the potential for positive use in end-game teams to hit required performance in end game content. Outside of that they are neutral at best. Untill you actually address the counter arguments, you sound like a very one dimensional person, unable to open your mind to other possibilities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

...

---

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

I consider myself to be somewhere in the middle, as I don't need exact number, I just want to know if the player is pulling its weight. Let's say 70% of their possible output in regard to gear and job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's got nothing to do with the use of parsers

---

It does. I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming. Parser would tell me who should be my priority on the healing list. It's better for the group if the better performing player stays alive. Also I would not know who should I kick without the parser... and you can complety content while being carried.

Btw. if doing poor dps is good, what about poor healers and tanks with poor enmity management? With them you can't clear content. Are you going to kick them? They have same performance as the dps. Why should you kick them? That's not fair.

I am not saying that parsers are flawless, I agree that they would lead to toxic behaviour, it might create stress for few players, but it is still an improvement!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whiteroom

You know, I wasn't going to respond to this as I considered it foolish and that you were most likely trolling, but you took the time to write it out, so I will respond.

At no point did I, or anyone allude to parsers being some magical cure all (Hint: there is no full party esuna for all excuses for sub par play, not having an absolute solution for something doesn't mean you don't try to improve it...)for everything wrong with the game. That you think anyone is saying it is even close to an absolute is a little comical.
You suggest improvements that you think will make the game better, and I believe that this will. For reasons that have been stated time and time again, in countless threads, so no point of repeating them in this post.

It's also funny that you seem to think that I or anyone would think they would react the same to every scenario in game, while you yourself have the grand wisdom to see that each situation is different, and will be handled on and individual basis, based off any number of factors.

That you seem to think that bads gonna be bad is a contradiction to you asserting that people react differently at different times even. Of course ther will be those who will always be bad. But not all players who are bad will remain bad is what you left out. Those who think that they are going on fine or even great, when they are actually face with the numbers that show them if they are right or wrong, are likely to react to those numbers. Those DRGs that think keeping their buffs up don't really have that much of an effect for example, or those BRDs who don't keep up dots or buffs, not to mention those dps who think wearing fending acc doesn't change your output much, or even that person who was advocating SCH not using cleric stance to apply dots in the other thread, would be able to see that it is actually a signifigant difference. Now while there would be some who don't change at all, there will be a lot who will.

As has been stated a million times, its not about making all players world first level raiders, it's about giving the population a tool they can use to improve their own game, as well as their teams.

P.S. whats with the off hand fear mongering about getting reported for kicking? the statement that players who are not playstyles not matching the rest of the group is an acceptable reason to kick, is generally accepted enough that I feel no need to link it. I have kicked very few people, but never once has there been a fear of reprecussions from a GM. I honestly can't see anyone but an extreme worrywort even taking this into consideration. I mean, you would see at least an odd post from people contending the GM action if it was remotely common, and I've seen none as of yet. Not to say it can't happen, but it has to be so rare as to not matter.

---

I'm pointing out that it's a pointless defense/argument to begin with. I also never said anything about "everything wrong with the game", just with the alleviation of bad players, which is literally what the for-parsers crowd that uses this argument is saying parsers do. Maybe I'm mistaken on that, and people are literally only looking to use it to witch hunt when applicable. It does practically nothing to better someone that doesn't already have the urge to be better, since as I said, they'd already be at a decent if not better stance because of their own use of existing parsers or research into how-to-play. The information and means to acquire it already exist. As such, it doesn't even properly support the for-parsers crowd when you actually look at it objectively. This is why I asked, even if we had parsers officially and encountered a bad DPS, what are you gonna do about it? I'm going to assume, as I said earlier, nothing.

Truth be told, I didn't overlook those handful exceptions. There are going to be the oddball rare ones, but they're not going to be as common as you think. You're overlooking HOW people come to that conclusion that they need to improve. A complete newbie that doesn't have the drive to be better, by default, is not going to realize they've hit a personal wall until they can't do certain content. Do you think they'll actually take the time after some random d-bag calls them out on it in a typical MMORPG community manner? Probably not. Ooh boy, the likelihood of THAT type of person saying something, as opposed to the nicer but silent majority, is quite high. You know what the most common excuse that people that do ignorantly bad DPS is? "I'm not geared enough". Nothing to do with rotations or anything that can be solved faster than gear. They won't know what good is for their ilvl because all they ever hear about, if anything, is a generic "you should be doing X DPS" where the statement is about someone attempting endgame raids. Even if they had a parser, they still won't know what is good for their situation. If someone has obtained all the tome gear and STILL hasn't figured out there's something wrong, chances are they just don't give a damn to bother to learn. As uncommon as you might think that is, believe me... it's common. I know at least 4 people IRL that played this game that are like that, and I'd wager you know folks that are or would be like that too. Those are the bads that are gonna be bad. No exceptions to it, unless they've had some sort of epiphany about their life or something lol. I'd say that's not going to happen to the average Joe playing. What I'm trying to say is that the sort of person you think would benefit, already does or already would with how it is now. Their plight would be no different to what gets them to be better.

As I said, which goes along with what you added, focus on those few that want to self improve. Don't draw in some BS argument about some saint becoming better because someone told them they're not doing high enough DPS in some faceroll content in-progress, which is exactly where this would happen. Relevant content, you won't find such a person there unless your group is a fail to begin with.

Also that getting kicked comment was just in reference to someone saying something along the lines of "sorry, you're too low on DPS for this" in a random faceroll DF group, like a 4-man entry dungeon that someone is wanting to go a few minutes faster, which would be an abuse of the kick system just like how it would be now. Nothing to do with the threat of being tattled on because of an actually relevant reason. Besides that, GMs rarely take those sort of reports seriously anyway, unless actual threats were issued.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

---

How am I so offensive? Is it offensive to ask you to answer the points made, or explain why you simply ignore them? I have noticed a trend on this forum recently where people ignore opposing points, and get offended by opposing points of view, is your position so weak that it cannot stand a critical approach? Perhaps you simply can't deal with mild sarcasm? For someone who argues their position so strongly, you seem to be quite fragile under criticism. Oh, wait, lets imagine we're ingame and your dps is lacking. IF this how you react to criticism there, how would you feel being faced down by someone critical of your skill in-game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

---

Something I can completely agree with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

I can't tell the difference between two mediocre players and one really good player carrying somebody underperforming.

---

Honestly, being able to tell that something is wrong with how someone plays without a spreadsheet telling you every little detail, is what I consider the bare minimum to teach and preach to other players about how they are supposed to play their class.
Just a general rule of thumb, not about you personally. And teaching others is the thing this thread is in some twisted way trying to promote, isn't it? A teacher should be competent himself. Seeing basic flaws in a rotation is part of that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

How am I so offensive?

---

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atoli

Even I, who pretty much agrees with you mostly, think that your tone is unnecessarily provocative with harsh sarcasm and needless assumptions about others. Archaell is right when he says that it's kind of weird how we are concerned that official parsers will make the community more toxic but then don't act different from what we are trying to prevent :(

---

I'm trying to get someone to actually answer the points made instead of repeating the same point that they've made before - which have been answered by you, me and others several times over.

I was specifically sarcastic at the ridicoulous attempt to claiming to be bullied into a firce carry by a player with poor skill. It's an utterly ludicrous claim to make, not least because of the existence of vote-kicking.

However, be that as it may, I also get very tired of posters who immediately draw the victim card when they have no counter argument. It's easy to distract from the discussion by crying foul because of a claimed offense. I'm honestly shocked by how fragile people here are in the face of what is, in all honesty, mild sarcasm. Either way, continuing to discuss the use of sarcasm in a discussion/debate simply derails the original discussion.

So, without further sarcasm, I'll move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

Let's start with a simple question. Why are you so offensive? The pro-parsers should be toxic, not anti-parsers.

---

Barely paying attention to the conversation, there is a bunch of stuff I can barely pay attention to and I don't really care about parsers one way or the other. But this line is blatantly false. You can have toxic people on both sides of the argument. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

I don't actually expect dps players to do their best. I expect them to do well enough.

btw. I have nothing against tanks (ok, maybe a little bit, as I want to dps too ^^) and healers who dps. If the situation allows it, dpsing as tank/healer can be really rewarding. But tanks and healers should not substitute for poor dps, they should provide it as an extra - As you said it leads to nice runs.

---

My bad, a DPS doesn't really have an excuse to be doing sub 800 DPS in a dungeon, let alone sub 600 in (almost) full i200. I do hold the belief that in a perfect world, both overgeared tanks and healers should be DPSing when doing content far below their gear level, but I also hold the belief that DPS should be trying as hard as possible. I suppose that's what the commendation system is for, I wish I could give out more than one at times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.

---

This is the internet, that's bound to happen. Take a look at any twitter argument or political oriented facebook page's comments.

In my experience, pointing this out to people doesn't help. People demonize the fence-sitters and skeptics just as much as the other side.

"If you're not with us, you're against us" is a line the people actually use to win over crowds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

This is the internet, that's bound to happen. Take a look at any twitter argument or political oriented facebook page's comments.

In my experience, pointing this out to people doesn't help. People demonize the fence-sitters and skeptics just as much as the other side.

"If you're not with us, you're against us" is a line the people actually use to win over crowds.

---

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1c548387e9.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

snip

---

Probably a bit too pointed for a general discussion of a videogame, despite being true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atoli

…

---

Not everyone who supports parsers has knowledge to teach other players about their job. Which means that mediocre players would benefit from the parsers the most. Honestly, I can’t pay focus to others while doing my job to the best of my abilities. It would decrease my own performance, making the situation even worse. That’s why parser is needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm trying to get someone to actually answer the points made instead of repeating the same point that they've made before

---

I have tried to answer all your posts in this thread… it is not possible. There are too many. So ask specific questions and you will get specific answers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Don't fool yourself into thinking that the "correct side" has only morally upstanding people and that the "incorrect" side is vile.

---

As Atoli said, it is kinda weird to act unfriendly when you try to prevent toxic behaviour. Fanaticism is on both sides of the argument, I keep that in mind.
Personally, I seek parser that would help us deal with people who can’t do their part in fights, while not giving too much power to elitists.

Parsers would be fine if they are available to ALL players. PC only parsers leave out at least 35% (likely more as this is old PS3 data) of the player base. If parsers are used then they should be available to all players which eliminates some troll in a dungeon lying about dps numbers or just saying one person is bad when really they are maybe 20 dps from the highest dps. I've seen this happen recently when other the non-parsing player had commented about being on a console.

If allowed then party parser data should be available directly (not second hand) to the whole party for it to be useful, help people improve and to avoid conflict which occurs when only one person has access to the information.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

What is your basis for imagining that there will ever be general availability of parser data for all players? The many instances where players have been disciplined over parser misuse should be adequate evidence that this will not happen. Or do you intend to ignore that as well?

---

Because the discussion is about an SE provided parser, avalible to everyone. There is a don't ask, don't tell rule in place that is hypocritical on SEs part as it totally excludes a large portion of the population from using them, while the rest are, as long as they don't bully others with it.

It is a common topic in parser threads, and important, given the devs reliance on dps checks as core mechanics. Also, their stance on the is somewhat informal if you've ever taken the time to read Yoshis own comments on them.

As to your questions, type parser into the search option above, they have been asked many times and you should find your answers multiple times in each thread.

I was not answering your questions previously as I was not talking with you in this thread, and had seen nothing original, relevant or reasonable asked. It's funny that you speak on people ignoring negatives, all the while brushing off or ignoring the positives. So what are the big negatives I see in parsers, from this game and others.

1. Parsers will turn the population into DPS eating abusive a hole zombies.
Well, other games I've played, which have an official parser, have the same ammounts of abuse going on as we have here already. Just sometimes it involves a number. More often than not, when some dummy totally misused the parser and ripped on someone in ignorance of how to actually read it, they were laughed out of the group. Anywho, there is probably a version of this point, with a reply on every page, in every thread that contains the word parser.

2. This ones funny, as it was somehting said post parser in other games. DPS meters make everyone in the game way too dps focused and they ignore everything else in the great dps race.
Umm.. well.. the answer here is obvious. Dps centric ffxiv? Well I never! Parsers could help to improve that dps they they are already blindered on though.

3. And I'm surprised this isn't brought up more often. Some of the more easily discouraged players may see their output compared to others and give up on the game.
My answer to that is that it is a sad reality. I may be able to teach the odd person a thing or two, but I can't be a life coach in game. But on the flip side, how many already give up in frustration at the failure of content due to dps checks being met? Well, we cant say for sure, because we don't have access to any comments or reasons left when people cancel their subs.

There are other minor arguements put forth from time to time, but mostly it's just a fearmongering version of #1, or someone saying falsely that SE is against them because of #1.

The things many don't want to realize, is that parsers are already in game and being used. The ones asking for an official ones are doing so for the benefit for the console players.

You guys can argue all you want about toxicity/etc. But the truth is, you're arguing against something that would improve QOL for console players.

I still think personal parsers are a good idea. let us see our own numbers. I suspect it would get quite a lot of players asking for advice on how to improve their numbers.
I am against the 3rd party/multi player parsers because far too many players use them to grief others rather than to try to give advice with them.
a simple thing like
"hey I'm using a parser do you want to know your numbers so it might help you improve"
would go a long way
instead we get a lot of
"your numbers are on the bottom. you suck"
let me see. most parsers can simulate but not get actual numbers from DoTs so that argument does not work. No I'm not going to listen to the argument that 1 parser is more acurate than another because it has some acurate simulation of the DoT(sorry but BS). if the numbers are not reported to the log the parser does not actually have them.
on the other hand a personal parser that is official would have these numbers.
They have said they are considering personal parsers. possibly on striking dummies
I would rather they just let us use the parser in action in DF so we can see what our best is in that situation to tell if it needs improvement. but alas this is thier game so who knows what they will do.

I have yet to see any evidence that parsers cause harassment. Everyone that uses that argument relies on it being a given, but if you google around for it all you find are ffxiv threads about hypotheticals where it's taken as a given...

This community is the only one with this attitude about dps meters. Every community will have its differences, but this is a pretty extreme deviation on a pretty simple and commonly accepted tool. I don't understand it at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

I have yet to see any evidence that parsers cause harassment.

---

fair enough. however players with bad attitudes do use parsers to grief other players. That is the argument that SE is using. Not that the parser itself is a bad thing.
I almost never know if another player is using a parser till one of the bad eggs decides to grief someone else in the party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wildsprite

fair enough. however players with bad attitudes do use parsers to grief other players. that is the argument that SE is using. not that the parser itself is a bad thing.

---

It's actually not the argument SE is using, though. Lazily quoting myself from earlier in this thread:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

Devs have asked people not to use them for harassment, but they've never really said that they would cause more - that's just something the community decided. This source is a bit old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WX...outu.be&t=6m5s) but he never even mentions harassment as one of the reasons, let alone the foremost. Here's another interview (http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/) where yoshi's asked about it and never mentions harassment in a 3 paragraph answer. If your argument is that it's a dev position, then you should really have a source. In this case, that's not the dev position, it's a community position.

I know everyone says it's a dev position, but it's really bugging me because it's really not true at all. After the first ZAM interview where he laid down fight club rules, everyone started saying stuff like "so basically as long as you don't use it to harass people, no one will know." Which is true. But that was just because harassment would break the fight club rules; harassment itself was never the focus until the community made it that way. Harassment being in any way relevant to parsers was a conclusion drawn by the community via a series of implications, none of which are really tied to any dev statement.

At this point everyone just assumes it's true because so many people say it, and people say it because they assume it's true, and they assume it's true... ad infinitum.

---

Besides, it's not like harassment or griefing would suddenly not be reportable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wildsprite

fair enough. however players with bad attitudes do use parsers to grief other players. that is the argument that SE is using. not that the parser itself is a bad thing.

---

That's a common misconception actually, SE's stance has absolutely nothing to do with parsers potentially being used for harassment and everything to do with SE being a software company that doesn't want to condone the use of third party tools due to liability issues.

Quote:

---

GE: Recently, there has been noise from players about parsers, mods and third-party applications being used with Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn and about people getting warned, suspended or even banned by GMs for using such applications. There was also mention of a plug-in API for the game. We were wondering what the policy was, your stance on it, and how you were approaching these issues. Some players are a bit worried and don’t want to get banned.

Yoshida: This is a very difficult question to answer. We are first and foremost a software company, and as a software company we cannot really approve of anyone modifying our product in any way. We would prefer it if everyone played within the original design of the software, otherwise we can’t really guarantee the quality of the product itself. Officially, the policy is that any additions or modification to the game are against the rules and privacy policy and when playing our game, everyone has to have gone through the steps to agree to the Terms and Conditions when you sign up.

However, I too am a hardcore PC gamer so I understand that there are a lot of plug-ins and add-ons available to many games. So as a PC gamer, all I can really say is “Please, don’t get caught.” If you are going to use add-ons and plug-ins please be discrete about it. Don’t go around telling your friends you mod the game on chat, or ask a GM if using such an add-on is ok. We can’t really go around and check if add-ons and plug-ins will work with our game and debug it, and check that it doesn’t break anything – its too much. Really what it comes down to is I can’t really say “Yes” to these things, and players have to realize that by using an application that accesses game files that they are the ones that are assuming the risk of viruses and possibly compromising their account.

And as you probably know, Final Fantasy XI had a particularly strict policy on this kind of thing, so there are quite a few players out there who moved from XI to XIV who definitely view any kind of add-on to the game as bad. So please, just be discrete if you will be using tools or add-ons.

---

Source:http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/

This whole "Think of the community!!!!!" argument is nothing but scare tactics, fear mongering and misinformation about a subject that we don't need to talk about in hypotheticals because tools like parsers have been around for as long as MMO's have (well over a decade) and we already know there are little to no issues with allowing players to use them.

EDIT: Poster on the previous page beat me to the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryel

EDIT:[/B] Poster on the previous page beat me to the same thing.

---

I'm just glad to not be the only person saying it now lol. One day there may even be dozens of us!

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...evelopment.gif

I actually feel that there is almost no point in responding further to this topic. But hey, one last time, just for the heck of it.

• SE may/may not introduce an 'official' parser, when they publish the Addon API.
• Said parser may/may not be more accurate than 3rd party ones due to having access to complete data for DoT damage.
• The API and game client will not give any parser the DoT data for any player except the one who's client is running the parser.
• If/when SE supplies an official parser it will almost certainly be a personal parser, which may, or may not be available for anything other than striking dummies.
• Said 'official' parser will not supply detailed parsed data for anyplayer except yourself, nor will the API facilitate access to complete data for other players.
• There will be no generally available parser data for other players, you won't beable to say to another player, "hey, the official parser shows your DPS is lowest, would you like some pointers?" because that information will not be visible to you.

Why do I think that all of these restrictions and possibly others will apply? Simple, Yoshi and the Dev team have gone to great lengths to prevent any form of naming and shaming, player harassment, bullying, abuse, and anyother negative behavior that falls under the heading of griefing others. Introducing an 'official' parser will not go against this fundamental stand of theirs. This is a separate point referencing their view on player conduct, and not relating to whether or not SE wants to open the game up for add-on tools in general.

Parsers don't make people a-holes, however a-holes can use parsers to abuse, bully or otherwise grief others. The number of players actively doing this will always be small on an absolute level, but will always cause a disproportionately large problem.

Parsers are just tools, how they are used is dependent (much like guns) on the user. Sadly however, there are a great many immature individuals in our player community, people who are not a-holes, but are prone to being provoked and less capable of handling situations in a constructive manner. So it's not only a-holes who will misuse parser data.

Parsers are a valid tool for use in end-game content and static groups allowing teams to maximize their efficiency.

Parsers are not a valid tool for use in general content outside of end game because in any situation where someone uses parser data against another player, there are a limited number of possibilities;

• the player in question is open to advice and wants to learn; this situation is however unlikely because players actively interested in learning and doing better are almost certainly not underperforming to a degree where there is a problem - precisely because they try, they ask and they listen.
• the player in question doesn't want to hear it, people in general don't like criticism, unsolicited advice or having data thrust in their face as proof. These players will either ignore you, react negatively, get upset, rage-quit and/or report you for using a parser and using it to grief them.
• the player in question doesn't give a damn what you and your parser say, they're just happy to play and may be too young, impaired or distracted to listen to or care about what you are saying.
• the player in question is intentionally trolling you and will delight in tweaking and annoying you further, disrupting your game entirely.

Only in the fIrst of these scenarios is there a truly positive outcome, but in actuality, players open minded to change and improvement are already better than average (typically speaking) and are less likely to attract parser scrutiny in the first place.

People in general get defensive when they feel they are being criticised, the can easily feel bullied, or unduly pressured. Some will react angrily in these circumstances, but all will view the situation negatively. It doesn't matter how positive the approach is, criticism is criticism.

The reality of human nature is that over time, more players than expected will mis-use parsers and far more players than parser advocates will acknowledge will be offended, angered or negatively affected by the behavior of those mis-using parsers. The number of players in the general community, that will improve their performance because an "official" parser exists will be eclipsed by the dark cloud of negative experiences. Far from being the promised land of overall improvement and excellent crop yeilds twice a year, the situation will be at best, the situation we have now, and at worst a number driven hell where players are discriminated against and are expected to show their parse to join a group.

Finally, parsers are a trap for some players. We exist in a "moar dps" climate right now, and many DPS players are hyper-focused on their big numbers to the extent of not dodging avoidable damage because it disrupts their positionals. Ever present parser numbers will only serve to enhance this issue by giving those players a number to focus on and worry about.

The present "dont ask dont tell"parser use works because it allows those who want to parse, to parse, and clearly puts mis-use on the list of offenses that can earn discipline. A parser that parses other players, is ever present and ubiquitous will cause far, far more problems than it is worth. As I outlined earlier any official parser will include strict limitations of it's capability and clear guidance about parser abuse.

Thats my opinion on the matter, I've made other points in earlier posts and stand by them all. The best way to improve the general quality of play is to play, talk to others, make friends, coach newbies and less capable players *if* they want it, and avoid criticizing other players. Parsers are not needed to facilitate this, and seve only to dehumanize the coaching and learning process.

:end.

There is a crucial flaw to the concluding idea. Everything is predicated on the urge to improve. If people don't have a quantifiable way to show them that they need to improve or any more relevant way to encourage improvement, then the entire process you described collapses.

A perfect example is day 1 A1S Faust. There were a lot of players that naively attempted A1S on release only to have their perception of how sufficient their DPS was shattered. Faust was a semi-quantifiable way to gauge how sufficient your raid DPS was. A lot of players either gave up on Savage or adopted the mentality that they needed to improve.

The first step is the foundation. You need to establish a system of positive reinforcement that promotes improvement among even your casual player-base. An example of this is gating desirable stuff behind levels of performance on a more accessible and relevant level than Coil or Savage. Nothing has ever done this past or present.

That's the real way to improve the general level of play. You don't force that responsibility on your player-base. You have to hold their hand and guide them as developers. You have to foster an environment of progression. It's no different from an educational institute and the role of teachers and administrators. Yes, a part of the quality of education does fall to the students and how they interact with each other -- study groups and what not. But, the teachers and administrators need to create the proper environment first.

After you have planted those seeds and given more and more people reason to pursue improvement, then parsers are no longer a taboo thing. They're no longer perceived to be something elitist ass-holes wave in your face to tell you you're bad. They're just a tool that everyone uses to better measure their abilities. They're like test scores or grades. I haven't met a school teacher in my life that says to a student "I'm not going to tell you how well you're doing."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

• SE may/may not introduce an 'official' parser, when they publish the Addon API.
• Said parser may/may not be more accurate than 3rd party ones due to having access to complete data for DoT damage.
• The API and game client will not give any parser the DoT data for any player except the one who's client is running the parser.
• If/when SE supplies an official parser it will almost certainly be a personal parser, which may, or may not be available for anything other than striking dummies.
• Said 'official' parser will not supply detailed parsed data for anyplayer except yourself, nor will the API facilitate access to complete data for other players.
• There will be no generally available parser data for other players, you won't beable to say to another player, "hey, the official parser shows your DPS is lowest, would you like some pointers?" because that information will not be visible to you.

---

1. Would the addons be usable by console players? They may/may not be. There can be official parser alongside addons.
2. The said parser can be more accurate if SE makes it more accurate. They have all the data, 3rd party programs not.
3. The problem you can fix with SE’s own parser – they have the data.
4. You are pointing out that parser could be insufficient. Then SE should make it work everywhere.
5. That would be start. As I said in other threads. Detailed personal parser and basic performance indicator for other players would be good enough. Simple icon showing who does their part and who not (who is responsible for enrage fail) would be enough for me.
6. That would be a problem with personal only parsers. Easily fixed by full group parser provided by SE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Why do I think that all of these restrictions and possibly others will apply? Simple, Yoshi and the Dev team have gone to great lengths to prevent any form of naming and shaming, player harassment, bullying, abuse, and anyother negative behavior that falls under the heading of griefing others. Introducing an 'official' parser will not go against this fundamental stand of theirs. This is a separate point referencing their view on player conduct, and not relating to whether or not SE wants to open the game up for add-on tools in general.

---

Then maybe SE will have to nerf content and stop using enrage timers. With every single new content focused towards dps we need better players, we need parsers. Not to mention that in Heavensward difficulty a little bit increased.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Parsers don't make people a-holes, however a-holes can use parsers to abuse, bully or otherwise grief others. The number of players actively doing this will always be small on an absolute level, but will always cause a disproportionately large problem.

---

Will a-holes use it? Well yes. The thing with a-holes is that they are able to find other ways to bully the players. They can be reported tho. So maybe SE will have to increase number of GMs? Pay them from our retainer fees, maybe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Parsers are just tools, how they are used is dependent (much like guns) on the user. Sadly however, there are a great many immature individuals in our player community, people who are not a-holes, but are prone to being provoked and less capable of handling situations in a constructive manner. So it's not only a-holes who will misuse parser data.

---

Right now players with unofficial parser have advantage over players without them. That’s even worse. Yes parser’s are like guns, guns that portion of community uses to some extent, guns that are used to kick players (without stating the reason of course, so the player does not know it was due to dps). Is it fair that one side has guns and the other one not? Well of course not. People can even lie about the parser data and without your own parser you have no defense. You might not even notice that there is a problem with your dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Parsers are a valid tool for use in end-game content and static groups allowing teams to maximize their efficiency.

---

I agree with this statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Parsers are not a valid tool for use in general content outside of end game because in any situation where someone uses parser data against another player, there are a limited number of possibilities;

• the player in question is open to advice and wants to learn; this situation is however unlikely because players actively interested in learning and doing better are almost certainly not underperforming to a degree where there is a problem - precisely because they try, they ask and they listen.
• the player in question doesn't want to hear it, people in general don't like criticism, unsolicited advice or having data thrust in their face as proof. These players will either ignore you, react negatively, get upset, rage-quit and/or report you for using a parser and using it to grief them.
• the player in question doesn't give a damn what you and your parser say, they're just happy to play and may be too young, impaired or distracted to listen to or care about what you are saying.
• the player in question is intentionally trolling you and will delight in tweaking and annoying you further, disrupting your game entirely.

---

This is nice list of players’ behaviour, but it does not invalidate parsers. Parser isn’t some miraculous tool that would make everyone a nice person. It is just a simple tool to measure performance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Only in the fIrst of these scenarios is there a truly positive outcome, but in actuality, players open minded to change and improvement are already better than average (typically speaking) and are less likely to attract parser scrutiny in the first place.

---

Again. Parsers aren’t going to fix social problems, nor are they going to cause them in significant amount.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

People in general get defensive when they feel they are being criticised, the can easily feel bullied, or unduly pressured. Some will react angrily in these circumstances, but all will view the situation negatively. It doesn't matter how positive the approach is, criticism is criticism.

---

People get defensive parser or not. We could also say that seeing the numbers yourself may discourage you from reacting angrily. If the player does not pull their weight they do deserve to feel under pressure. To feel bullied? That’s their choice. Unless it is explicitly harassment, they are the only ones who can fix that. Btw. Pressure is one of the motivators usable for improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The reality of human nature is that over time, more players than expected will mis-use parsers and far more players than parser advocates will acknowledge will be offended, angered or negatively affected by the behavior of those mis-using parsers. The number of players in the general community, that will improve their performance because an "official" parser exists will be eclipsed by the dark cloud of negative experiences. Far from being the promised land of overall improvement and excellent crop yeilds twice a year, the situation will be at best, the situation we have now, and at worst a number driven hell where players are discriminated against and are expected to show their parse to join a group.

---

Okay, pro-parser crowd has to oversell the idea, coz they are the ones at disadvantage right now – but anti-parser crowd is kinda pushing them to overselling, so the problem is caused by both sides.
The truth is, we do not know if official parser would result in more negatives than positives. But change is good. Who knows maybe parser-advocates will realise their mistake and then we will remove parsers again. Removing parsers should be easy, so I say give it a shot.
Btw. The situation can get as much worse as it can get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Finally, parsers are a trap for some players. We exist in a "moar dps" climate right now, and many DPS players are hyper-focused on their big numbers to the extent of not dodging avoidable damage because it disrupts their positionals. Ever present parser numbers will only serve to enhance this issue by giving those players a number to focus on and worry about.

---

You may be correct on this one, but the issue is not going to get much worse. Guess what happens when the player dies? Brutal dps / number loss. Will they have to work a little bit more? Oh yes, finally they will have reason to stop watching Netflix.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The present "dont ask dont tell"parser use works because it allows those who want to parse, to parse, and clearly puts mis-use on the list of offenses that can earn discipline. A parser that parses other players, is ever present and ubiquitous will cause far, far more problems than it is worth. As I outlined earlier any official parser will include strict limitations of it's capability and clear guidance about parser abuse.

---

It works, but it has issues. The data ain’t as accurate as it could be and parser data used for good of the community are treated like mis-use and harassment.
It may cause far, far more problems, it may not. That’s your assumption and it isn’t too far from “the golden age” of parsing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Thats my opinion on the matter, I've made other points in earlier posts and stand by them all. The best way to improve the general quality of play is to play, talk to others, make friends, coach newbies and less capable players *if* they want it, and avoid criticizing other players. Parsers are not needed to facilitate this, and seve only to dehumanize the coaching and learning process.
:end.

---

And here I have to heavily disagree with you. If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. Not because we are evil, but because work neglected by one has to be done by somebody else – which is part of the problem that you are completely ignoring.
Right now there are many players getting willingly / unwillingly carried trough content. Here is assumption of my own: They are more numerous than people who would use parsers for evil deeds.
Everybody has to do their part. Healers have to heal. Tanks have to tank. Dps have to… dps. Right know tanks and healers are at brutal disadvantage. Healer that does not perform leads to wipes, tank that does not perform leads to wipes, dps that does not perform… sometimes leads to wipes, which they readily blame on their tanks and healers. Parsers are step forward towards environment fair for all the roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malevicton

I'm just glad to not be the only person saying it now lol. One day there may even be dozens of us!

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-conten...evelopment.gif

---

It would be a good thing in a sig probably, as it is a fairly common misconception.

This will be my only answer, I was not going to reply in this topic again, but I thought these three things most of all stood out as wanting a response.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

1. Would the addons be usable by console players? They may/may not be. There can be official parser alongside addons.

---

As I previously posted in another reply, I think that the 'official' SE parser will be available on all platforms with the possible exception of the PS3.I believe that an official Parser function from SE would be put into the game client. I would not be surprised to see it omitted from the PS3 client as the first clear example of fading support for the PS3 platform. PS4 is more than capable of running the first party add-ons supplied in the client by SE, it would be much more difficult to allow 3rd party tools, unless they are running inside a run-time environment within the game client. If they are stand alone applications they would be gated by the Sony application verification and publication process which I believe would be one gate too many.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

Then maybe SE will have to nerf content and stop using enrage timers. With every single new content focused towards dps we need better players, we need parsers. Not to mention that in Heavensward difficulty a little bit increased.

---

I don't agree that the absence of an official parser in any way requires HW content to be nerfed. As far as I know, from reading here and talking to many in-game, the spike in difficulty in the general HW content is on par with the ramp up we saw in the original ARR going from the dungeons prior to Haukke Manor to the more difficult dungeons (at the time in level appropriate ARR gear) like Cutters, Brayflox, Stone Vigil, Arum Vale or for that matter the original AK. Parsers would not have helped terribly much then, with the possible exception of the DPS check with the Demon Wall, although that was doable with healers applying damage as well. HW content scales difficulty up, but outside of the Alexander Savage, I'm not aware of anyone saying that the new content is simply to hard because of a lack of DPS - unless of course said DPS is running in ilvl 100 gear in level 56+ content...That is an issue that parsers can never address.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

And here I have to heavily disagree with you. If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. Not because we are evil, but because work neglected by one has to be done by somebody else – which is part of the problem that you are completely ignoring.

---

Finally, I take great exception to this statement by you; "If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. ".

That attitude is, IMHO, quite callous. I'm not suggesting for a moment that players have a right to expect to be carried rather than improve. Nor am I suggesting for a moment that players who are obviously sub-par but don't care enough to improve should be specifically catered to with content nerfs. There are clearly certain levels of performance that the Dev team expect player to achieve, or else they will be unable to complete the content. However, players in that situation either have to be satisfied with the content that they can handle without further improvement (which should be "punishment" enough in itself), or they have to find some desire to improve. However, I disagree completely with the idea that anyone deserves punishment simply because they are not good at a game and are OK with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment.

---

Pretty much say's it all. Self appointed purveyors of right and wrong and who deserves to be punished and by their standards. Get over yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

This will be my only answer, I was not going to reply in this topic again, but I thought these three things most of all stood out as wanting a response.

I'm not aware of anyone saying that the new content is simply to hard because of a lack of DPS.

---

I have wiped too many times doing Bismark story mode due to dps check... so here I am saying it is hard when you don't know which dps is dragging the rest of the group down - not to mention that healers usually try to dps too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Finally, I take great exception to this statement by you; "If somebody does not want to improve they deserve punishment. ".

---

Of course when I say punished, I mean excluded from the content till they can do their part. That's my main point. Being bad at the game and being ok with it isn't the issue - being bad at the game and being okay with others covering your lack of sklil... that deserves punishment.

If players would do only things where they are able to perform that would be bliss... but players are not satisfied and do content beyond their skill level. They just repeat the content enough times till they get good enough groups to carry them - or till they are overgeared enough to clear it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Pretty much say's it all. Self appointed purveyors of right and wrong and who deserves to be punished and by their standards. Get over yourself.

---

So would you say that when somebody does 90% of work and the other person only 10% while getting the same reward it is totally right and justified?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

You're assuming I don't have fun at work or at competitions...

---

And the people pushing parsers as the be-all-end-all of self improvement assumes anyone worth calling themselves a gamer must also love doing work and attending competitions. I'm fairly competent, I hate my job and the last time I was in any kind of competition it was a spelling bee in elementary. I'm not competitive in the slightest so peer pressure doesn't mean a thing to me. I'm much too old for that kind of 'game'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Archaell

If players would do only things where they are able to perform that would be bliss... but players are not satisfied and do content beyond their skill level. They just repeat the content enough times till they get good enough groups to carry them - or till they are overgeared enough to clear it.

---

I tend towards suggesting to such players that they join a social FC, make friends and ask those friends if it would be OK if they helped them through anything that was too difficult for them. This covers many situations including the one we are discussing, but also situations where players are actually impaired, preventing them from be capable of playing beyond specific levels. I know several players who despite some significant challenges or impairments to their capability to react quickly, or execute rotations anything remotely like perfectly; absolutely enjoy playing FFXIV. There is nothing more satisfying to me than being part of a group of friends that helps players in that situation to complete content that otherwise would gate them from progressing the MSQ.

An environment where players use parser data to demand that others improve their performance would be unpleasant for players such as those I am describing. That is one of the downsides to parsers as far as I am concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

...

---

Impaired players are related to the issue, but I doubt they are the majority. In these cases we have to deal with them on person by person basis. If somebody has conditions preventing them to reach certain level of performance, I am certain the community is nice enough to consider it - the sad thing is when these players do better job than somebody more than able to perform.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

And the people pushing parsers as the be-all-end-all of self improvement assumes anyone worth calling themselves a gamer must also love doing work and attending competitions. .

---

I don't think I've seen a single person push it as the be all and end all of in game self improvement. It is however a very effective and well known tool to use actively or passively to improve your own game or trouble shot problems or hurdles that crop up during content. All the better because you can look at much more than just the dps numbers.

Is a hammer and nails the only way to fasten two pieces of wood togeather, no, but its a very common and effective method that pretty much everyone understands. The same goes for parsers. If you have an extremely effective method you haven't tried, people are going to suggest that before trying to be creative and come up with exotic method of unknown effectiveness to do the same thing.

The thing is I don't need a parser to tell me how I'm doing, I can see that just fine for myself. If a run isn't going well, I'll try harder. If in trying harder nothing changes then no amount of data is going to make me try any harder than I already am. All throwing numbers at me will do is point out where the real problem might actually be. We have the best potential to improve when it's on terms of our own choosing, because it will be us willingly pursuing improvement. Forcing people to 'get good' only makes things worse. Doesn't take a degree to realize that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

The thing is I don't need a parser to tell me how I'm doing, I can see that just fine for myself. If a run isn't going well, I'll try harder. If in trying harder nothing changes then no amount of data is going to make me try any harder than I already am. All throwing numbers at me will do is point out where the real problem might actually be. We have the best potential to improve when it's on terms of our own choosing, because it will be us willingly pursuing improvement. Forcing people to 'get good' only makes things worse. Doesn't take a degree to realize that.

---

It's not about forcing you to try harder, it's about giving you more information so you know what's working and what's not.

At the end of the day all it is is information. Sometimes it won't help, sometimes it will. But having more information about your performance is never harmful.

Its not even about the parsers or even how fast a run is completed people don't see the underlying issue. It's about the fact that this community is so anti-performing it seems, due to ANY advice given to players in most situations is seen as a horrible thing and all of the sudden makes you an elitist cause for some reason they imply that most the population has a disability which is the only argument anyone advocating for lazy gameplay can give when the topic of offering advice is given, they all come out with the "well what if the person has a disability!!!1!1!" Argument.

I can tell you right now the ratio of underperformers to how much people actually have disabilities due to known statistics doesnt add up there is way too many people willfully being ignorant, it has nothing to do with being disabled to taking the "fun" out of their game. I cannot fathom how pressing your keys in the correct sequence to perform the correct rotation is any less fun than sticking your head in the sand pressing all the wrong buttons, and of 28 pages no one has answered that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dank1

...

---

It is more fun, because you can watch TV, you can eat lunch, you can do taxes, you can even have sexual interactions etc. soo many possibilities.

The players against performance are combined from many categories: 1. You have people who are worried, honestly worried, about disabled. 2. People who are worried about harassment. 3. People who don't like to be told that they can't do their part in a team based game. 4. People who do not care and are focused towards the reward with minimal amount of work. 5. People who play it as a single player game. And of course 6. Trolls.

I can't see it either how can it be fun to let others carry you, but people have different tastes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dank1

Its not even about the parsers ...

---

Well, like anything in game, with so many players there is any number of reasons why. I believe the major one being the metric, or lack there of, to tell people how they are preforming.

As to the why you aren't able to talk about it, or help, I attribute it to that whole "Everyone gets an award an a parade for participating" social movement. It's gone from everyone on the team contributes and helps, to being, if you are on the team, you don't have to contribute or help and no one can ask you too. It's well past the point of "appreciate your team members" to "coddle them and walk on eggshells because they are too weak to fend for themselves! And if you say anything, even if you are worked to the point of exhaustion to make up for their deficiencies, you are a kitten stomping demon! Your effort counts for nothing, it is your responsibility to do all the work!"

It's so taboo, that look at what you run into when you even suggest there be a metric so people can even see how they are performing within the team.


But, that's like a very rough opinion and stuff...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

Forcing people to 'get good' only makes things worse. Doesn't take a degree to realize that.

---

Just gonna say this, I play other mmos as well, and the current situation is the worst in the history of mmos, I have never seen such a conflict between 2 groups of players like, 1 side just wants to do stuff properly while players like your self defending such tripe is making the situation the worst I have ever seen in an mmo, many many people say this is the worst skilled playerbase they have ever seen. More and more people are asking for high demands because of the lack of information regarding players performance, parsers will ease this conflict as bad players will then have to answer for their lack of performance or laziness by 1 button spamming.

The moment the end game players quit this game, is the point where this game will die, end game players have always been the back bone of every game and kept it alive, they go then no more FF14 as they are the most dedicated players to the game and also the games biggest ingame advertisement for people to stick around, check all other mmos, this has been true for every single one.