Monk 3.0 CHAKRA UNLEASHED

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Originally Posted by Vulpes_Viridis

I would be interested to know how to calculate stats. I have an idea how to estimate WD, DET, CRIT but don't know how SS is evaluated.
I know Dots are affected, but it's not only about dots I guess.

EDIT: Nevermind, found something helpful here :)
http://valk.dancing-mad.com/

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Please keep in mind, many of the formulas and concepts I present on this website are not the true in-game formulas. The goal of this website is to provide a useful tool to help end-game players make better, more informed decisions about improving their characters and gameplay.

Update 2.0.2 (November 30, 2013)

For those of you with Hive and that are ilvl ~185, how are you competing with DRGs and NINs?

I was originally going to go MNK before HW, but last minute went with NIN. Fun play-style, but I'm frustrated with the amount of NINs (could just be my server) and that it's rough and requires flawless execution and low mudra lag to push 1200+.

i185 or i186, ~1200 on dummy quite easily. Pretty much equal with the DRG in my group w/o counting the bard's damage in A1 savage.


Don't have much else for reference since pf/df melee all suck balls.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

For those of you with Hive and that are ilvl ~185, how are you competing with DRGs and NINs?

I was originally going to go MNK before HW, but last minute went with NIN. Fun play-style, but I'm frustrated with the amount of NINs (could just be my server) and that it's rough and requires flawless execution and low mudra lag to push 1200+.

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It's just like that on my server too, Ninja is the most overplayed melee but that might be due to the fact that their utility outsthines DRG and MNK with MNK being the least useful for a raidgroup now.

I'm switching from tank to MNK for my group. A lot of hate on MNK utility, does noone remember T13? Where Dragon Kick was just fantastic? On top of Savage A1 having 2 mobs that both do a 25k magic damage tank buster, DRK tanking one and MNK on the other for double INT down, and then into the jump/landing phase the party damage is just huge so Mantra will be incredible. Honestly until everyone starts to out gear Savage MNKs defensive utility will be invaluable

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

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Although A top tier Dragoon or Top tier Ninja can and will beat monk in most fights if played correctly (ninja isnt so far ahead if there is no Warrior) but monk Single target damage is still very close to said classes.
for example i have been parsing for 1250-1300 on faust (not clipping adds with aoes) A1 im down to last 10% and im holding from 970-1000+
And A3 Normal Im doing 940+ on a good run a4 normal 1100+ and there are monks that are doing slightly more than my current best on a 4min dummy fight im pulling around 1270 maybe with good crit rng 1300 lol and i know Dragoons can pull even more than 1300 right now
All monk is in need of is some kinda new raid dps ability then we would be golden.

So, how important is it to cross-class for Mercy Stroke? I read the tidbit about fracture in the guide, but saw nothing about MS.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

So, how important is it to cross-class for Mercy Stroke? I read the tidbit about fracture in the guide, but saw nothing about MS.

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It should be on your cross class since there's no other good cross class skill to put. Its a dps increase.

Invigorate
Blood for blood
Fracture
Mercy stroke
Bloodbath

Are my preference for my cross class

Wait...people use Mercy Strokes?

Yes Mercy Stroke should be on your hotbar, and IMHO in progression it is mandatory.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Wait...people use Mercy Strokes?

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...you don't?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Wait...people use Mercy Strokes?

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It's an OGCD with a potency of 200. Why wouldn't you use it?

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Originally Posted by Naztalgic

It's an OGCD with a potency of 200. Why wouldn't you use it?

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It requires the enemy to have less than 20% HP left, and has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. Until the enemy is under 20% it's useless, and the cooldown is 50 seconds longer than Assassinate, which is a 40s cooldown for the same potency (minus the healing if it kills). When it becomes useable, you get maybe 1-2 uses on a boss and that's it. So yeah, I find it pretty useless as a cross-class.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It requires the enemy to have less than 20% HP left, and has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. Until the enemy is under 20% it's useless, and the cooldown is 50 seconds longer than Assassinate, which is a 40s cooldown for the same potency (minus the healing if it kills). When it becomes useable, you get maybe 1-2 uses on a boss and that's it. So yeah, I find it pretty useless as a cross-class.

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And what would you take instead?
Mercy stroke is an amazing off global, you also gotta concider that there is not only the boss in a raid but adds too and it helps finishing them faster too.
I get plenty uses of Mercy Stroke and it's a free 200 potency.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It requires the enemy to have less than 20% HP left, and has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. Until the enemy is under 20% it's useless, and the cooldown is 50 seconds longer than Assassinate, which is a 40s cooldown for the same potency (minus the healing if it kills). When it becomes useable, you get maybe 1-2 uses on a boss and that's it. So yeah, I find it pretty useless as a cross-class.

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You've never gone into Alexander savage, I guess?


And what is the alternative? Feint? Flurry? Foresight? :D

How much dps should you be doing as a MNK on a single target in Alex 1 Savage?

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Originally Posted by Atreides

And what would you take instead?
Mercy stroke is an amazing off global, you also gotta concider that there is not only the boss in a raid but adds too and it helps finishing them faster too.
I get plenty uses of Mercy Stroke and it's a free 200 potency.

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I use Foresight instead. The only way I would take that skill is either if the cooldown was lowered to at most a minute, or if it could be used whenever. I still question the developers using it as a cross-class skill considering Misery's End and Assassinate cannot be cross-classed...

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I use Foresight instead. The only way I would take that skill is either if the cooldown was lowered to at most a minute, or if it could be used whenever. I still question the developers using it as a cross-class skill considering Misery's End and Assassinate cannot be cross-classed...

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Foresight is even more of a useless skill compared to mercy stroke hell look at A1 you can use it on the adds and the boss when its sub 20%

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I use Foresight instead.

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You use foresight on what exactly? Throughout all of 2.0 and all the 3.0 level 60 fights, there is only one fight where a monk would take unavoidable physical damage where mitigation would be useful(t13's earthshakers). Anything else you could be hit by is magical, which foresight doesn't work on, or avoidable.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It requires the enemy to have less than 20% HP left, and has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown. Until the enemy is under 20% it's useless, and the cooldown is 50 seconds longer than Assassinate, which is a 40s cooldown for the same potency (minus the healing if it kills). When it becomes useable, you get maybe 1-2 uses on a boss and that's it. So yeah, I find it pretty useless as a cross-class.

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Most relevant fights you can use Mercy Stroke anywhere from 1 - 5+ times, depending on the encounter. A1S, you should be able to get 3 minimum, A2S as often as it's off CD, A3S at least 3 times, who knows about A4S. Past raids you'd usually get 3 or more.

You're giving up 600+ potency by sacrificing it, and more than once it'll be the difference between an add enraging somehow or you killing it. Please switch to using Mercy Stroke, for the sake of your team mates.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I use Foresight instead. The only way I would take that skill is either if the cooldown was lowered to at most a minute, or if it could be used whenever. I still question the developers using it as a cross-class skill considering Misery's End and Assassinate cannot be cross-classed...

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...what's the point of foresight? Keen flurry is superior.

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Originally Posted by Royin

How much dps should you be doing as a MNK on a single target in Alex 1 Savage?

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On a single target? Faust? 1200 or so.


The fight itself is not single target, but a kill run should end up with a melee at 900+ at least. Depending on party setup/pots/food/luck you can reach 1100, but you should get a kill before you master the fight to that extent.

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Originally Posted by TheMax1087

You use foresight on what exactly? Throughout all of 2.0 and all the 3.0 level 60 fights, there is only one fight where a monk would take unavoidable physical damage where mitigation would be useful(t13's earthshakers). Anything else you could be hit by is magical, which foresight doesn't work on, or avoidable.

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I've seen a lot of tanks who are bad enough to where I steal aggro constantly in dungeons, or the tank dies and I end up having to serve as backup tank long enough for the tank to get rezzed. Foresight is for those moments. Plus I actually forget to use it when I actually have Mercy Stroke on.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Most relevant fights you can use Mercy Stroke anywhere from 1 - 5+ times, depending on the encounter. A1S, you should be able to get 3 minimum, A2S as often as it's off CD, A3S at least 3 times, who knows about A4S. Past raids you'd usually get 3 or more.

You're giving up 600+ potency by sacrificing it, and more than once it'll be the difference between an add enraging somehow or you killing it. Please switch to using Mercy Stroke, for the sake of your team mates.

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I haven't started doing Savage mode yet, the FC leader's subscription is currently up and he doesn't get paid until later this week. I'll probably start using it then...but that's only if people are good, otherwise we'll never get that low. Such as those 2 weeks of trying to clear Bismarck EX, where the only time I ever saw under 20% was the one attempt where we cleared it.

As someone on Sav A1, I'd like to add that Foresight lowers the dmg of Prey on me from around 3.4k to about 2.3k a hit (it hits 6 times). I've tried keen flurry also, and noticed that it never parried once, even with 40%. It's possible the move is not affected by parry. I've yet to put much use to bloodbath (how much does it heal usually for you guys?)

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Originally Posted by Humorless

On a single target? Faust? 1200 or so.
The fight itself is not single target, but a kill run should end up with a melee at 900+ at least. Depending on party setup/pots/food/luck you can reach 1100, but you should get a kill before you master the fight to that extent.

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Alright I'm good then. For some reason people are claiming they deal 1400-1500 dps on just Faust, but I'm fairly certain the add up the AoE damage.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

As someone on Sav A1, I'd like to add that Foresight lowers the dmg of Prey on me from around 3.4k to about 2.3k a hit (it hits 6 times). I've tried keen flurry also, and noticed that it never parried once, even with 40%. It's possible the move is not affected by parry. I've yet to put much use to bloodbath (how much does it heal usually for you guys?)

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I'm inclined to believe you had a Succor on the 2.3k hit. Foresight shouldn't have that type of mitigation, in any situation, unless it's seriously stronger at level 60 defense than in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Royin

Alright I'm good then. For some reason people are claiming they deal 1400-1500 dps on just Faust, but I'm fairly certain the add up the AoE damage.

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Anyone getting 1400-1500 on Faust with current gearing (~i185-187) is getting AoE splash. On a solid run with little to no AoE splash you could can get 1300+ with some good crits, but not 1400+.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I'm inclined to believe you had a Succor on the 2.3k hit. Foresight shouldn't have that type of mitigation, in any situation, unless it's seriously stronger at level 60 defense than in ARR.

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Foresight for tanks is floating around a ~12% damage reduction on physical attacks, last I checked. I seriously doubt that it somehow reduces damage taken for monks by 30%. Foresight + fists of earth and the boss having Eye for an Eye or Virus or something would make sense.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

As someone on Sav A1, I'd like to add that Foresight lowers the dmg of Prey on me from around 3.4k to about 2.3k a hit (it hits 6 times). I've tried keen flurry also, and noticed that it never parried once, even with 40%. It's possible the move is not affected by parry. I've yet to put much use to bloodbath (how much does it heal usually for you guys?)

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Bloodbath is amazing. You heal for 300-400 per skill plus about 100 from autoattacks. Over the 15s it adds up to 3k+ HP healed without cooldowns. If you happen to use it when IR/HF/EF are up you'll get a ton of HP back. You get to be somewhat careless in A2 savage and get cleaved by a doll without healers yelling at you.

If there are adds, Mercy Stroke is very good, and even if there are none, why wouldn't you use it? It's free damage, and there are nothing else to cross class that's does anything useful.

Foresight does almost nothing for you, and in most cases that tiny amount of increased defense doesn't even get used. Using it in dungeons when tanks fail is a pretty lame excuse... It won't make a big difference even there actually, and why not change it to Mercy Stroke when raiding if you really want Foresight in dungeons?

Also, yeah, Bloodbath should be used a lot more by players... It together with Second Wind can save you from certain death in a lot of situations.

So... About Monk 3.0 AoE.. Has the word of Monks being amazing in AoE still not spread out?

Yesterday on a A2 run, ppl were trying to force me to get on the walker because and I quote "monk has shitty aoe"
Thanks to Invigorate + Puri I have almost none TP issues there (only last phase where I have to use 2x Chakra after every GL refresh so I can use puri again) ofc if there is an AST present the TP issue is gone.

But Im kinda wondering, since in A2 I can easly compete with BLM (Ninja, DRG, MCN and BRD AoE are nothing compared to me) and the only class that is unreachable is SMN but thats not a suprise. So yeah, have I always been with failers in the group and Monk AoE isnt that great..?

Monk AoE is amazing in 3.0 and is actually only surpased by SMN I think that should be common knowledge by now.

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Originally Posted by Ririndo

So... About Monk 3.0 AoE.. Has the word of Monks being amazing in AoE still not spread out?

Yesterday on a A2 run, ppl were trying to force me to get on the walker because and I quote "monk has shitty aoe"
Thanks to Invigorate + Puri I have almost none TP issues there (only last phase where I have to use 2x Chakra after every GL refresh so I can use puri again) ofc if there is an AST present the TP issue is gone.

But Im kinda wondering, since in A2 I can easly compete with BLM (Ninja, DRG, MCN and BRD AoE are nothing compared to me) and the only class that is unreachable is SMN but thats not a suprise. So yeah, have I always been with failers in the group and Monk AoE isnt that great..?

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It's probably a mixture of bad MNK's and players just living in the past...

I've been told many times to go into the walker because "MNK have shitty DPS in this fight"... But I've just told them to give me a chance 1 run, then they can look at my DPS and decide if I'm doing the least or not. Usually blow everyone out of the water, and so far I've only been challenged by 1 or 2 SMNs.

If played better, other jobs will ofc be closer, and at least SMN should be ahead by a lot, but otherwise MNK does good AoE damage in a longer fight like that, because you can't spam AoE skills without losing all TP, and Elixir Field + Howling Fist does a lot of damage without costing TP.

Eh, saying Monk AOE is amazing isn't quite accurate. PB isn't something you can use frequently enough to seriously consider it. The DPS in something like A2 comes from the fact that AOE is built into our single target rotation. If you're doing 1500 dps, 1300 of that is still single target. Even in dungeons where you're just doing your rotation with rockbreaker spam half your damage is single target. If a tank chain-pulls in a dungeon you're still not keeping up with a BLM and their infinite mana.

Sorry if it's a stupid question -- I'm new to MNK, but is there a rotation/priory? Basically what does MNK do for maximum AoE.

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Originally Posted by Laur1x

Sorry if it's a stupid question -- I'm new to MNK, but is there a rotation/priory? Basically what does MNK do for maximum AoE.

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If you can afford to burn all your TP (like it's going to be a very short pull), Twin Snakes -> Rockbreaker - Perfect Balance - Rockbreaker X5, mixing in a Howling Fist and Elixir Field in there somewhere. Preferably have BfB and IR up as well. This can lead to some ridiculously high burst AOE damage, but it leaves you drained and unable to be of much help if the fight's going to continue on for much longer.

If you need to burn TP more slowly (like consistent trash pulls in dungeons), you replace Snap Punch and Demolish with Rockbreaker, depending on how many enemies (RB > SP if it hits even 2, RB > Demo at 3 targets.) Make sure you got enough TP for this, as you will still run yourself dry pretty quick.

If it's more of a "cleave" than an "AOE" (like 2-3 targets who will live for a bit), just do your normal rotation but put Demolish on the other targets instead of using Snap Punch on your main target. This is also good if TP is going to be a concern, which is true for longer fights, and yes, that includes Purify. It's outright impossible to keep your TP up for long using Rockbreaker every combo unless a brd/mch/ast is feeding you TP, or the fight is short.

Elixir Field really helps to carry our AOE, and since it's part of your single target rotation it's quite nice. Just make sure you position yourself appropriately for maximum EF and HF targets.

Arm of the Destroyer sucks compared to Bootshine unless you're hitting 5 targets (4 if you have IR active), but even then it'll leave you TP drained incredibly fast. Overall it's not worth messing with.

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Originally Posted by Humorless

Eh, saying Monk AOE is amazing isn't quite accurate. PB isn't something you can use frequently enough to seriously consider it. The DPS in something like A2 comes from the fact that AOE is built into our single target rotation. If you're doing 1500 dps, 1300 of that is still single target. Even in dungeons where you're just doing your rotation with rockbreaker spam half your damage is single target. If a tank chain-pulls in a dungeon you're still not keeping up with a BLM and their infinite mana.

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Pretty much. With PB we can pull out massive AoE within those 10 seconds, but after that we have nowhere near the AoE as the other classes. Which explains why we're usually told to get onto the gobwalker for the bombs (not that I mind, I find it fun).

i'll be totally honest, when my group got to A2, i didnt even run on monk, i went to my significantly lesser geared summoner (i173 vs i189)
monk has ok AoE, but its far from sustainable.

Monk AoE is slightly better than the other melee dps IMO, but I guess one could argue that the utility the other 2 mdps bring on a fight like A2 savage is more useful, also not really OT, but @Atreides what is that GIF from.

Welp, I was wrong about Foresight in A1s, prey isn't affected at all. Bloodbath is pretty great.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Ooh, the way it was initially worded I assumed you were talking about Faust since that's where most people were getting hung up around the percentages you gave. My apologies on that. Sadly I must admit we did have much time in there last night so I have no major advice on the Oppressor. Your DPS sounds about right from what I've seen though. However, those additional details you provided should give some others that got some decent time in there a little more insight as to your situation.

The only screen I've seen with a parse at the end of a clear is this: http://i.imgur.com/ynysj56.png

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Dat WHM name doe!

Also. In order to fix monks all they need to do is make Med an off gcd and put an appropriate cd on forbidden chakra. Not only will that help to alleviate the gap in dps after you consider the raid dps the other two melee bring, it will allow us to incorporate pur into the fight multiple times when its actually needed without fucking us out of the globals used to stack for it because:
A. if youre running dry it means theres almost no downtime to use med without losing dps to regain tp.
B. if youre forcing med into your rotation instead of a dps gcd, youre saving some tp while doing it anyway making pur worth that much less.
Also while form shift is nice to start a fight, and will help to keep stacks up sometimes. more often than not you land on a dk/bs or ts/ts when the mob flies, or the time its gone is longer than your gl stack allows anyway even if everything is perfect. they should make it sustain the current gl stack if used on demo/sp. which would prob be a little op but, you would still be penalized by having dk fall off the boss and having to reapply and ts fall off of you and having to reapply. while this would make form shift kind of broken, not being pretty far above other jobs in st while bringing 0 raid dps utility would be balanced. right now all raid dps utility is worth far more than usual because of how much healers and tanks are having to dps to down the current content with the available gear level, even if your dpsers are good they still need to put out quite a bit making those buffs worth that much more.
The same thing should be done for mudra to fix the lag issue, being able to weave them into your rotation would fix the server lag randomness of mudra timings and having the actual skill bounce back all at once. but this wont be done cause whoever thought of the bunny will be butthurt.