Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

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Originally Posted by Jaber

Show of hands, who here is wanting to play this game not to fight enemies nor build their character up nor explore nor do raids nor progress through the story, but to hold W for an hour and run around the market wards all day?

What we have here is a lack of understanding. More specifically, you lack an understanding of how games work.
Working together with your party to take down a strong enemy is fun. Idling on an airship for ten minutes is not.
Building up your character is fun. Spending a halfhour running through those hugeass straightaways Gridania is riddled with is not.

More to the point:
PURPOSELESS DELAYS ARE NOT A GAMEPLAY ELEMENT
They are not something you can base a successful game around
"Lots of pointless waiting before we let you do the thing you actually want to do!" is not something you can put on the back of the box

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what you call "purposeless delays" i call "immersion", which last i checked was a huge mechanic in gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Bled

what you call "purposeless delays" i call "immersion", which last i checked was a huge mechanic in gameplay.

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I'll tell you what, I'll go make a game where you win by fighting enemies and getting gear, and you go make a game where you win by idling on an airship with a scrolling background for ten minutes then holding W for the next halfhour, and we'll go see which is more popular.

I'm all for immersion. It's one of the main reasons I play games; to escape to a different world and different life. Idling on a boat and excessive travel times are not going to immerse me, they're going to do the exact opposite by causing me to instead spend that time playing MHP3 on my PSP. I don't want to spend my time in another world waiting. I can do that in this one, and it won't cost me twelve bucks a month to do it.

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Originally Posted by Jaber

I'll tell you what, I'll go make a game where you win by fighting enemies and getting gear, and you go make a game where you win by idling on an airship with a scrolling background for ten minutes then holding W for the next halfhour, and we'll go see which is more popular.

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Neither would be popular... to be a good game one mechanic can not be exclusively intended there needs to be a balance of all mechanics.

“media contents are perceived as ‘real’ in the sense that media users experience a sensation of being spatially located in the mediated environment.”

Breaking down the above sentence, fighting monsters, running raids, buying items, and insta teleport does not make up a game exclusively. Rather the extension of the world needs to create a second reality for you, rather then o hey i just killed x amount of what even monster for sp value.

Oh what's this
It's "Desktop Dungeons", a game based entirely around fighting enemies and getting stronger, and with very short playtimes to boot!

Your turn, show me a game based entirely around being immersed in idling, where players look forward to the dread of doing anything because of the massive amount of time it takes just to start!

Of course, if that's your thing, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying that experience!
Unless for some reason that joy comes from forcing that experience on other people rather than from the experience itself.

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Just reading through your whole reply, i can't help but think you missed the core concept behind my post.
To answer your question, No the game does not force me to insta-port and by the same token it does not force you to take an airship ride.
My suggestion for that issue, if you cared to pay a bit of attention was that SE could easily introduce alternatives for people like you, such as NPC's to cater for insta ports at some cost other than Anima.

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Ummm....

No. I read your post very thoroughly and replied accordingly. I do that to all my posts. I also put in there potential airship content and why a custcene/scenario and supporting evidence for why there should be one. So in essence, I added to what airships could be just like you stated.

Then you say I didn't here:

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The point here is that you shouldn't dictate what the Airship should grow and flourish to be, hopefully an exciting part of the game, and not just merely an instant travel tool.

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You see how you didn't read my post now and how you are putting words in my mouth and misconstruing me? I never dictated anything. My argument is against dictation. I don't see how I could even continue with this thread if I had dictated anything. Honestly, I'd stop right away if I did that.

The only part I didn't take out was, "Let people have the option to skip it." There you go, now you don't need to add NPC's, you can just have an option that does both. Fulfilling all possible needs.

But let's look at that entire paragraph to be fair:

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My main point here is that Airship should be an Airship ride, not an insta port.I know. You dont want to be dictated? That's Fine, i agree with you.Awesome Request for npc's for porting, we had them in XI, they can easily do them again.Or just add Cancel>cancel> Skip Cutscene [yes] [no] Even easier yes? Perhaps if we stress that, it will come to pass. I nowhere dictated the Immersionist's style of play for those who can't be stuffed.This is where I lost you. I'm unfamiliar with what is being referenced to "who can't be stuffed" The point here is that you shouldn't dictate what the Airship should grow and flourish to be, hopefully an exciting part of the game, and not just merely an instant travel tool.Replied above. we've all seen the intro movie A lot of times and thankfully we don't have to watch every time we log in.with the airship battles and that was something highly anticipated to be a part of the game.Agreed.

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C'mon man I read your posts. I know it's a lot and it may not be worth your time but if you're going to reply please read it. Otherwise just ignore me and don't bother. I totally understand that.

I already posted concepts for airship content. I even agreed with some of your points. The fact remains, which is at the center of the argument here and to stay on topic, is that you need other people to play the game how you do so that you can feel vindicated for your time spent by comparing and contrasting accomplishments specifically those related to exploration.

We'll keep it narrowed to exploration. Don't want you to assume that I'm putting words in your mouth nor misappropriate the discussion at hand.

I don't think that is necessary for fun nor the longevity of the game to force time sinks on people. This only applies to the actual use of the airship itself. I realize the option to not use the airship. I also realize the scenario where someone runs out of anima. I also realize that it won't hurt gameplay and less development resources are needed to add a "skip cutscene" prompt OPTION than even adding NPC's that can port you like in XI. Occam's razor.

The same logic applies to cutscenes as it does the airship scenario. Airships as a theme are necessary in order to preserve the Final Fantasy feel that many people have been clamoring for. Same applies for cutscenes. This has been the motivation for including them into the aesthetics of Final Fantasy XIV. This is also the motivation for implementing their bare bones framework. Same goes for Chocobos. Retaining the function to travel quickly, conversely, retaining the function to just "rent" a chocobo, is only in the best interests of the player base and their real life time constraints and only adds adaptability to each individuals personal lives so that they can adapt they're gaming time "around" their life, not the other way around. Would you recommend that we ban the rental Chocobos when the the "My little Chocobo" system is implemented? I'd hope not. And I'm also asking that you take that sentiment one step further beyond yourself and don't call for the banning of the "skip cutscene" option for airship rides function as well, for those that would like it retained.

This particular aspect of implementing new features should always trump the biased philosophy of immersion especially when that person can still choose to experience the content or not experience the content in this case. Immersion is different to everyone as is their game experience.

Moving on.

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One major potential issue i see with it being instanced is that if you do choose to take the ride, my impression is that you will be on the ride on your own instead of with other players where people can for example enjoy content on airship together such as teaming up with strangers on-board to fight against enemies in airship battles and such. That would just plain suck, and in that case aren't you dictating what other players could have enjoyed as a result of your beloved insta-port system?

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Nope, absolutely not dictating that. I can't dictate what other people choose to do with their playtime. I can't dictate what options are available to them. I won't dictate what other people choose to do with their playtime. I won't call for features that dictate what other people will do with their playtime. I also don't appreciate the snarky attitude but that's another matter. You could do without the sarcasm. It'll open people up to your point of view if you do so.

Have you not teamed up with strangers to do Toto? It can be fun, if they know what they're doing and are prepared for it. Sometimes it's fun to teach new players how to go about it, but the filter of forming a party is still present.

Personally, I'd rather the airship content be so dynamic that people go out of their way to form strategies and carefully put groups together in order to overcome obstacles rather than random rag-tag who knows it randoms with crafting gear that left they're level 50 LNC at home and all they're doing is taking the airship to get to Ul'dah to sell their stuff but their out of anima.

Even then, the random rag-tag scenarios could still happen, and you'd be with people of the same mindset.

People who want to experience airship content.

That is better than your proposal while still including airship content and the option to skip it.

Next!

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The other issue is, realistically speaking, when you give the option to instaport or not, it would be silly not take the instaport optionNot to those that want to experience the content mentioned., everyone will just start instaportingExcept for those that want to experience the content., killing off the airship feature when it should be an integral part of the gameExcept not even in your hypothetical scenario.. You can go ahead and blame the immersionist for choosing not to take that option to rideI don't need to blame them. I just don't need them to force me. Ultimately though the choice is within their hands to take the airship in the first place. They could use their anima too., but some things should be enforced for the good of the gameSuperfluous timesinks for timesinks sake is not one of them.. By your logic, they should also make the ferry insta port as wellDepending on your goals. To be fair, they should add a chocobo carriage from Grid to Thanalan to even out the distance, and effort, it takes to travel between cities. Make both of those skippable and you're golden. Also add content for something to do on the carriage and you're set. As of now the ship can be necessary for fishing which is a gameplay oriented aspect of the game. So in short I don't disagree with you hear but it needs balancing for the other city-states as well., and hey, why not have the guards by the city gates insta port us to any guild in the townNever suggested this but if you want to add a fee or some gameplay mechanic on top of it go ahead. so we dont have to run in the city anymore? Then, you tell me, who wouldn't use that option if it existed?Those who prefer to enjoy the sites of the city and the ambience. Also implementing other content in town would offer a risk reward scenario in lieu of teleporting. Shall we just remove Anima costNope I like the dynamic. I also like the dynamic of being able to pay people or conversely, paying for an airship to get a similar effect.? Heck.. lets just remove running All togetherNow you're getting... nevermind., so with a click of a button in the menu, people can reach their destination in a split of a second and not waste any game timeNever advocated this. Also never asked for doing this type of thing without an accompanying risk reward mechanic attached.. It's just becoming ridiculous.To be honest, and I don't mean to rage you, but yes. I also never suggested it. These are your own slippery slope machinations.
I don't advocate mindless time-sinks and neither do i advocate dictating those limited in time or uninterestedThen we're in agreeance., but we should strike a balance and there should be a line drawn somewhereIt's been drawn and you are the one coloring outside the lines.. In this case, i'd like see these rides remain rides and not portsWhy not both. You're argument is unconvincing.. There is a teleportation system, let's utilize that for those who can't be bothered.And for those who've run out of anima. Specifically crafters that don't actually like running around all day and all their local leves require them to go to multiple cities and different camp locations. Why don't we just ease up on them a little bit, allow the option to view a cutscene which should be implemented post 1.19, and retain the option to quickly port for those weekend warriors that actually put a lot of game time in a short time span.

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My suggestions appeal to a larger crowd. Fortunately for you that crowd also includes your own. Please understand this. I have your wishes in mind as well, but I also play with a stay at home mom, a stay at home dad (different relationship. They aren't both staying at home with their mutual children), an undersea oil rig robot pilot who works three weeks on three weeks off, a soldier, a teacher, a retail salesman, several college students, a lawyer, a retail manager, a small business owner, a musician, some veterans, an anti-missile engineer, a security guard, an English professor, a computer tech, and a physically disabled person all from different timezones and areas around the world.

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It is merely my feeling that i think its a sad sight to see, where people in an MMO can't be bothered spending some time to explore/experience the world because they feel it's a time-sink when it plays a huge factor in the overall experience of the game. But Meh, To each his own.If you truly mean this you know that's the end of the argument right?
Granted, i can see the short comings of taking this path myself in the current state of the game, it is rather dull as it stands.To you. I just don't fancy seeing the game turning into an insta-everything for the sake of convenience and as a result compromise encouraging exploration and adventure and whatever else the game has to offer but.I agree. But the exploration is not going be forced upon nor spoon fed to you. And it shouldn't. Removing personal choice pulls out the whole fun and accomplishment of exploration. You took it upon your own to discover something new, to you, and hopefully you've brought back some nuggets of wisdom to share with the rest of the community as Azury and DoctorMog have done.. that's just my opinion anyway.And that's all it is.

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Seriously Az. Please. You aren't even comparing apples and oranges anymore. You're comparing apples and whatever you want to say that people are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Jaber

Oh what's this
It's "Desktop Dungeons", a game based entirely around fighting enemies and getting stronger, and with very short playtimes to boot!

Your turn, show me a game based entirely around being immersed in idling, where players look forward to the dread of doing anything because of the massive amount of time it takes just to start!

Of course, if that's your thing, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying that experience!
Unless for some reason that joy comes from forcing that experience on other people rather than from the experience itself.

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Can you read? I ask because if you read my above post you would realize how much you just embarrassed yourself.

Popular games that focus on immersion, in their mechanics: Call of Duty's, Gears of War, majority of Final Fantasy, Lost odesy, FIFA, and NHL, all of these games use immersing their customers into a second reality where the person can visualized themselves there. Standing on an airship between cities is just a small part of the over all mechanic of immersion. If you don't like that then fine but don't get on your soap box and scream that all immersion is idle standing.

Now get out of that one track/over exaggerating mind set and maybe you can see that there can be more to a game then PEW PEW PEW.

Rhomagus I fking love you! Such a beautiful post it hath brought tears to my eyes ; ;

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Seriously Az. Please. You aren't even comparing apples and oranges anymore. You're comparing apples and whatever you want to say that people are talking about.

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Welcome to most of Azury's posts. They've become comedic, free entertainment. :o

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Originally Posted by Bled

Can you read? I ask because if you read my above post you would realize how much you just embarrassed yourself.

Popular games that focus on immersion, in their mechanics: Call of Duty's, Gears of War, majority of Final Fantasy, Lost odesy, FIFA, and NHL, all of these games use immersing their customers into a second reality where the person can visualized themselves there. Standing on an airship between cities is just a small part of the over all mechanic of immersion. If you don't like that then fine but don't get on your soap box and scream that all immersion is idle standing.

Now get out of that one track/over exaggerating mind set and maybe you can see that there can be more to a game then PEW PEW PEW.

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You sir are confusing immersion with waiting.
The immersion in call of duty is not done by forcing you to sit in the back of a plane for fifteen minutes while you fly to a dropzone. The immersion in FIFA is not done by having the player wait in a locker room for half an hour while all the fans pour into the stadium(or at all, now that I think on it, since sports games are most always presented in a manner similar to watching a game on TV).
Likewise, the immersion in FFXIV does not benefit from excessive travel times or waiting on an airship, though it does simulate that experience quite well in that I'll end up playing a handheld game whether I'm waiting on an airship in-game or waiting on a plane in real life.

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

Rhomagus I fking love you! Such a beautiful post it hath brought tears to my eyes ; ;

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Thank you :)

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Originally Posted by Jaber

You sir are confusing immersion with waiting.
The immersion in call of duty is not done by forcing you to sit in the back of a plane for fifteen minutes while you fly to a dropzone. The immersion in FIFA is not done by having the player wait in a locker room for half an hour while all the fans pour into the stadium.
Likewise, the immersion in FFXIV does not benefit from excessive travel times or waiting on an airship, though it does simulate that experience quite well in that I'll end up playing a handheld game whether I'm waiting on an airship in-game or waiting on a plane in real life.

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you are confusing what you don't enjoy in a game with what immersion is actually defined as and used for. at some points in life standing and looking out at a scenic view, or waiting for a trip to end is part of a immersive factor. Again i would like to emphasize standing still is not all that immersion is but rather 1/10000000 of a part of immersion, as NPC's actually moving around a city would be another 1/10000000 of immersion. Slowing down is not naturally a bad thing in a game, but this new emerging mind set believes that gear scores, and raid running is the only appropriate mechanic of a game; so hey if that's what gets you off i suggest looking outside of the final fantasy franchise.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Thank you :)

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Yup!

I think if more people posted like you do I would actually take some discussions here seriously

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Originally Posted by Bled

you are confusing what you don't enjoy in a game with what immersion is actually defined as and used for. at some points in life standing and looking out at a scenic view, or waiting for a trip to end is part of a immersive factor. Again i would like to emphasize standing still is not all that immersion is but rather 1/10000000 of a part of immersion as NPC actually moving around a city would be another 1/10000000 of immersion. Slowing down is not naturally a bad thing in a game, but this new emerging mind set believes that gear scores, and raid running is the only appropriate mechanic of a game so hey if that what you enjoy i suggest looking outside of the final fantasy franchise.

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Which is why I asked you for examples of games that are popular because people enjoy having to wait without having the option to do otherwise. I don't understand why you cannot enjoy your waiting while other people have the option of not waiting if they so choose(since it's pretty obvious from all the topics that it's quite a divided issue).
Because you won't have anyone to wait with? If it was something everyone enjoyed, why wouldn't there be anyone to wait with? If it's forced, the people who don't enjoy it are just going to be AFK, and you end up no better off while they end up inconvenienced.

Long live the old mmorpgs

I hope something is cultivated to compensate for our ever decreasing lack of immersion.

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

Long live the old mmorpgs

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I, for one, would like FFXIV to live long enough to be considered 'old' rather than 'dead'

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

Yup!

I think if more people posted like you do I would actually take some discussions here seriously

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I hope you don't mind if I included your compliments in my signature. I left your name out for anonymity. I'll remove it if you ask. I'm truly flattered.

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Originally Posted by Jaber

I, for one, would like FFXIV to live long enough to be considered 'old' rather than 'dead'

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Same here. I think materia will be very nice addition to the game. Can't wait for the next patch.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

I hope you don't mind if I included your compliments in my signature. I left your name out for anonymity. I'll remove it if you ask. I'm truly flattered.

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AHHHHHH /blush

btw Rhomagus, you didn't respond to my post. What question did i not answer?

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Originally Posted by Jobeto-Rin

btw Rhomagus, you didn't respond to my post. What question did i not answer?

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Ya you only read the last part which wasn't really the question only something to keep in mind when answering the question.

The last part was a disclaimer so that you didn't pigeon hole me as a post WoW gamer.

Here's the link to the entire post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post328853

I intended to reference this proposal and question combination:

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Anything that takes time requires us to be more involved

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AFK on an airship involves me how again?

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Originally Posted by Jaber

Which is why I asked you for examples of games that are popular because people enjoy having to wait without having the option to do otherwise. I don't understand why you cannot enjoy your waiting while other people have the option of not waiting if they so choose(since it's pretty obvious from all the topics that it's quite a divided issue).
Because you won't have anyone to wait with? If it was something everyone enjoyed, why wouldn't there be anyone to wait with? If it's forced, the people who don't enjoy it are just going to be AFK, and you end up no better off while they end up inconvenienced.

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Before the skip cut scene feature, waiting was a huge part of video games, so do i really need to list them off for you? Even in call of duty there are parts of the game where you are forced to watch a scene play out before you. You say whats so bad allowing people the option to insta telepot i re rebuttal with Abysea from FF11.

When SE created abysea in FF11 they said "o hey guys abysea wont ruin anything because people can still choose to experience the old content". well guess what it did ruin FF11, by creating content that is so drastically different and "easy access" that makes old content obsolete, you pigonhole people into having to use the new content. In reality by introducing all of this new instant gratification content all old content and immersion is becoming obsolete thus forcing people to use said new instant gratification while masking its true cause by saying "were giving you the option to choose".

Choice is over rated, especially when the people choosing are as smart as your common household cat.

I see the response now. You separated the WoW tidbit onto the next page.

I still disagree with you though, but that's because our design philosophies are different. MMO's don't have to be a lifestyle choice, they can compliment one's lifestyle choices. In XIV, you can still choose to make it a lifestyle choice. The content in it is immersive enough to do so. I have a web show, chat with fellow players, and generally spend a large chunk of time dedicated to the game. I also appreciate the aspects of the game that will still keep me around when my life changes and doesn't require me to give so much to the game in order to get enjoyment out of it. Immersion is a term of bias and is different for everyone. Hence my logic that immersion should never be forced unto people.

Which supports why having the option to either view or not view the proposed airship cutscene/sequence should be available to both types of players.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Before the skip cut scene feature, waiting was a huge part of video games, so do i really need to list them off for you? Even in call of duty there are parts of the game where you are forced to watch a scene play out before you. You say whats so bad allowing people the option to insta telepot i re rebuttal with Abysea from FF11.

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Yes, please list them off for me. Only the ones where the forced waiting adds to the game, mind you, not the ones where you mistake being unable to skip things to be a gameplay element.
For example.. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance comes to mind as a game that would have benefited greatly from not having to sit through the halfhour long intro/tutorial. It was bearable the first time. It's kept me from replaying it ever again, though. Like an airship ride, not something I'd want to have to sit through multiple times whether I'm sick of it or not without any choice in the matter.

BTW, your argument boils down to "if people have access to content that's easier to enjoy, they're going to choose it over other content"
Which is really not much of an argument at all.

And I counter your Abysea with Chains of Promathia, which was an enormous pain in the dick to complete because very few people were willing to do it again after experiencing it once, even after level sync negated the requirement of buying new gear sets for 30, 40, 50, and 60! GL getting a group willing to do promyvions with you, let alone one that's capable of clearing it, even after spending hours farming for items to weaken the boss!

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GL getting a group willing to do promyvions with you, let alone one that's capable of clearing it, even after spending hours farming for items to weaken the boss!

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They...removed the level caps :o

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Originally Posted by Jaber

Yes, please list them off for me. Only the ones where the forced waiting adds to the game, mind you, not the ones where you mistake being unable to skip things to be a gameplay element.
For example.. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance comes to mind as a game that would have benefited greatly from not having to sit through the halfhour long intro/tutorial. It was bearable the first time. It's kept me from replaying it ever again, though. Like an airship ride, not something I'd want to have to sit through multiple times whether I'm sick of it or not without any choice in the matter.

BTW, your argument boils down to "if people have access to content that's easier to enjoy, they're going to choose it over other content"
Which is really not much of an argument at all.

And I counter your Abysea with Chains of Promathia, which was an enormous pain in the dick to complete because very few people were willing to do it again after experiencing it once, even after level sync negated the requirement of buying new gear sets for 30, 40, 50, and 60! GL getting a group willing to do promyvions with you, let alone one that's capable of clearing it, even after spending hours farming for items to weaken the boss!

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i found CoP easy to do. And almost everyone got it done. It was a challenge. It made it that much more special when you got past the promys. Once you got level sync and could use high level gear i dont know many ppl who had problems with it. On my server ppl who shouted in town got a party together in less than 30min usually.

They removed the cap? As in, you can go in and faceroll the place with your level 75/100/whatever char?
I quit playing just before they released Abysea, and at that time it still hobbled you at level 30.

I saw people shouting for parties for hours, then they'd disappear, come back an hour later, and start shouting again, presumably because they lost.
It took me many tries to clear each one, and when I helped LS members with it we had pretty much the same results every time. There was a specific strategy to follow, and it usually relied on luck and spamming consumables, much like the BCNM fights now that I think about it. The level 75 ones were great. They were challenging, but they didn't rely on you being a specific job with specific gear spamming consumables and getting lucky
But, that's going off on a tangent...

Regardless of how they are now, there was a very long period of time in which they were so bothersome to do that people did them once to get closer to that rajas/tamas ring then never ever again ever. :/

yup! .

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Originally Posted by Jaber

They removed the cap? As in, you can go in and faceroll the place with your level 75/100/whatever char?
I quit playing just before they released Abysea, and at that time it still hobbled you at level 30.

I saw people shouting for parties for hours, then they'd disappear, come back an hour later, and start shouting again, presumable because they lost.

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Abyssea killed all the adventure in FFXI and easymoded everything. And the game died. go figure.

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Originally Posted by Bled

When SE created abysea in FF11 they said "o hey guys abysea wont ruin anything because people can still choose to experience the old content". well guess what it did ruin FF11, by creating content that is so drastically different and "easy access" that makes old content obsolete, you pigonhole people into having to use the new content. In reality by introducing all of this new instant gratification content all old content and immersion is becoming obsolete thus forcing people to use said new instant gratification while masking its true cause by saying "were giving you the option to choose".

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And this is why I'm having a hard time going back to XI lately. Currently on break, not paying for it. Abyssea took over the game and made everything easy mode - especially leveling. It was fun for a while but now that I've done it I'm bored. I've gotten everything I wanted from it - now what? lol No one plays the rest of the game anymore. The game I loved is pretty much dead.
Though I get it in a way - the game is old, it needed to attract new players. It's just sad to see XIV handing everything out without any effort on the players' part from the start of the game.
Handing out things on a silver platter = bad idea.

People will play an MMO if it offers the options they enjoy.

The less options an MMO offers, the less people who will play it.

Options are a good thing for an MMO - it attracts more players.

Players who do not prefer to instantly teleport already have the option in the game to not instantly teleport - therefore the game already includes the option they enjoy.

Players who do prefer to instantly teleport already have the option in the game to instantly teleport - therefore the game already includes the option they enjoy.

Both options for both types of players are in the game - what is the point of this thread, exactly?

To ask Square to remove an option that is already in the game so players who enjoyed the option will want to stop playing the game once the option is gone?

I really do not think that would be a move Square would take since less players = less money for Square.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Ya you only read the last part which wasn't really the question only something to keep in mind when answering the question.

The last part was a disclaimer so that you didn't pigeon hole me as a post WoW gamer.

Here's the link to the entire post.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post328853

I intended to reference this proposal and question combination:

Anything that takes time requires us to be more involved
AFK on an airship involves me how again?

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Waiting on an airship helps to substantiates it as being an actual in-game airship, it's an immersion tactic made to actually grant the feeling of progression, movement and traveling. Ya know things you do in a massive game world?

Apparently though....since immersion is flying out the window, tacts such as those doesn't matter, they'll only be seen as wasted time sinks.

Imagine just going to a dock seeing an airship / clicking on it / blank screen / arrived at the destination?

You went somewhere, but to some it doesn't feel like you went anywhere. It differs from different people. Some people become immersed others don't.

If you decide to go AFK well, obviously it doesn't.

That was going to be my response until I read yours.

We are different types of players and I concur that we do see MMO's under a different light.

I understand your view.

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Originally Posted by Crica

People will play an MMO if it offers the options they enjoy.

The less options an MMO offers, the less people who will play it.

Options are a good thing for an MMO - it attracts more players.

Players who do not prefer to instantly teleport already have the option in the game to not instantly teleport - therefore the game already includes the option they enjoy.

Players who do prefer to instantly teleport already have the option in the game to instantly teleport - therefore the game already includes the option they enjoy.

Both options for both types of players are in the game - what is the point of this thread, exactly?

To ask Square to remove an option that is already in the game so players who enjoyed the option will want to stop playing the game once the option is gone?

I really do not think that would be a move Square would take since less players = less money for Square.

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right now the game has nowhere near the numbers to survive as an MMO. I think FFXI still has more players. Square has to step the game up and make it competitive to draw in a good 50,000+ regular players.

So now is the time to change things and redesign things.

Choice isn't always good if it will make reviewers say "FFXIV is an instanced easy-moded game which has little to no strategy, has no sense of immersion, and feels like an empty world"

Instead they'll say "FFXIV is more like a movie than a game, since you'll spend more time sitting around than you will interacting with anything"

I don't know how people can complain about the game having an option they like simply because it's just that - an option.

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Originally Posted by Jaber

Yes, please list them off for me. Only the ones where the forced waiting adds to the game, mind you, not the ones where you mistake being unable to skip things to be a gameplay element.
For example.. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance comes to mind as a game that would have benefited greatly from not having to sit through the halfhour long intro/tutorial. It was bearable the first time. It's kept me from replaying it ever again, though. Like an airship ride, not something I'd want to have to sit through multiple times whether I'm sick of it or not without any choice in the matter.

BTW, your argument boils down to "if people have access to content that's easier to enjoy, they're going to choose it over other content"
Which is really not much of an argument at all.

And I counter your Abysea with Chains of Promathia, which was an enormous pain in the dick to complete because very few people were willing to do it again after experiencing it once, even after level sync negated the requirement of buying new gear sets for 30, 40, 50, and 60! GL getting a group willing to do promyvions with you, let alone one that's capable of clearing it, even after spending hours farming for items to weaken the boss!

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Human nature; present a caveman with magically cooked chicken that appears before him or force him to hunt, then kill, then find a way to cook the chicken. Of course the cave man would choose the magical cooked chicken appearing before his eyes, however guess what he had to hunt, then kill, then find a way to cook the chicken. So because the cave man had to take the hard road he learned more along the way like fire, hunting, skinning, bone craving, weapon making. Can you stop and even imagine where we would be today if everything was just given to us!?!?

Human nature is to take the easy way out so if you present game content that has easy content and hard content it is only natural for a person to choose easy content. In this respect people should not have any choice or say in the games development.

Edit: and again you are confusing your own impatiences for what immersion actually is.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

right now the game has nowhere near the numbers to survive as an MMO. I think FFXI still has more players. Square has to step the game up and make it competitive to draw in a good 50,000+ regular players.

So now is the time to change things and redesign things.

Choice isn't always good if it will make reviewers say "FFXIV is an instanced easy-moded game which has little to no strategy, has no sense of immersion, and feels like an empty world"

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Again, people will play an MMO if it offers the options they enjoy - it's that simple.

Right now, if people would like to play an MMO that offers the option to instantly teleport around the game world, then FFXIV is an MMO they would try out since FFXIV offers the option they are looking for.

Right now, if people would like to play an MMO that offers the option to not instantly teleport around the game world, then FFXIV is an MMO they would try out since FFXIV offers the option they are looking for.

If Square were to remove either of these options, then FFXIV would no longer be an MMO for half of the above players to try out...as well as turn off some of the existing player-base from wanting to continue playing.

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Originally Posted by Bled

Human nature; present a caveman with magically cooked chicken that appears before him or force him to hunt, then kill, then find a way to cook the chicken. Of course the cave man would choose the magical cooked chicken appearing before his eyes, however guess what he had to hunt, then kill, then find a way to cook the chicken. So because the cave man had to take the hard road he learned more along the way like fire, hunting, skinning, bone craving, weapon making. Can you stop and even imagine where we would be today if everything was just given to us!?!?

Human nature is to take the easy way out so if you present game content that has easy content and hard content it is only natural for a person to choose easy content. In this respect people should not have any choice or say in the games development.

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The flaw in your argument is that this is a game.
People don't play games to 'take the easy way out'. They play games to take the fun way. If the fun way is the easy way, okay. If it's not, that's okay too. In FFXIV, they will be able to choose the way in which they get the most enjoyment, and unlike in your example, they don't have any sort of threat pressuring them to go one way or the other. As long as the choice isn't affecting anyone but themselves, they can choose whichever they like, and if they choose to take the way that they don't enjoy because it's the "easy way", it's their own damn fault. It doesn't need to be forced for you to enjoy it.

In the end, no matter what they choose, the only prize is getting to their destination. It's not like an "LOL INSTANT LEVEL UP BUTTON EASY MODO". It's not a symbol of status to go to limsa from uldah. There's no epeen or achievement involved.
There's just "I want to/don't feel like looking at the scenery for 10-60 minutes, so I'll do this".

I have to add that for someone like me, my immersion would be immediately taken away once I realize I don't have to ride the airplane, it becomes less of a virtual world to me, simply because I can skip it.

That is incredibly hard to compensate for. A world's massiveness and immersion are affected when there are certain things being applied, like waiting for your plants to grow in FFXI. You had to wait, it helped to create that feeling of a live plant. It's the same concept with anything else requiring time.

I'd hate to imagine a skip button for that.

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Originally Posted by Jaber

The flaw in your argument is that this is a game.
People don't play games to 'take the easy way out'. They play games to take the fun way. If the fun way is the easy way, okay. If it's not, that's okay too. In FFXIV, they will be able to choose the way in which they get the most enjoyment, and unlike in your example, they don't have any sort of threat pressuring them to go one way or the other, and as long as the choice isn't affecting anyone but themselves, they can choose whichever they like.

In the end, no matter what they choose, the only prize is getting to their destination. It's not like an "LOL INSTANT LEVEL UP BUTTON EASY MODO". It's not a symbol of status to go to limsa from uldah. There's no epeen or achievement involved.
There's just "I want to/don't feel like looking at the scenery for 10-60 minutes, so I'll do this".

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The point went completely over your head, shall i try to explain it to you or am i leading a horse to water just to find he wont drink?

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Originally Posted by Bled

The point went completely over your head, shall i try to explain it to you or am i leading a horse to water just to find he wont drink?

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Is your new debate tactic saying things that are so completely irrelevant and stupid that it leaves people speechless?

If you had the option of riding the airship or skipping it, which would you choose?
Would you ride it?
Would you skip it?
If you would ride it, why is the option of skipping it a problem for you?
If you would skip it, why would lacking that option make riding it enjoyable?

I mean, I could understand if it were going to be either/or, but since there's going to be both options, how is it a problem for you if other people can choose not to do it the way you prefer?
I don't see anyone arguing for having the option of skipping it arguing against having the option to ride it, yet everyone who wants to ride it seems to be vehemently opposed to anyone being able to skip it.
I don't get it, and have come to believe that those people don't fully understand it themselves, either.