Eternal Bond - Standard Plan and Gold Plan

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Originally Posted by Amused

I'm not the one making outright claims as to what pay-to-win is. I said that winning is subjective, which it is. Therefore, pay-to-win can be applied to several facets of the game, whether you agree with it or not.

Getting a new mount? That's winning for a mount collector.
Getting a new minion? Same thing. It's winning for a minion collector.

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Exactly this! What is the point of PvE anyway? You get new gears. New gears = new items. Do you really need those new items? No, no you do not.
But if obtaining those items and achievements are winning to you, why is not finding a RP partner who will marry you, getting your special chocobo and clothing not winning to someone who enjoys rp?

What is winning in this game anyway? That is defined by the player.

Wait, you mean to tell me getting a mount or some other vanity item lets you win over....who? What's the conflict? Where's the contest? How do you "win" without those? Unless someone edited the dictionary when I was not looking, then no, no one is "winning" with cosmetic items.

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Originally Posted by Amused

psssh...nothin personnel...kid...

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sorry you have to pay me $20 for your smart remarks to bother me. So if you don't pay you don't win.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Wait, you mean to tell me getting a mount or some other vanity item lets you win over....who? What's the conflict? Where's the contest? How do you "win" without those? Unless someone edited the dictionary when I was not looking, then no, no one is "winning" with cosmetic items.

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Yes am very confused to as a collector of these myself I would never count cash shop ones I mean how elitist to you have to be to get but hurt over this?

Winning as a term may be subjective, but usually within MMOs the "Pay To Win" as a term means being able to buy things that put you ahead of others in terms of competitive play. Such as if you were able to purchase (with real money) an amazing weapon that could increase your damage more than an item available in the game. In a sense, putting you forward on "Leader Boards" faster in actual competitive game play.

Winning as a term may be subjective, but usually within MMOs the "Pay To Win" as a term means being able to buy things that put you ahead of others in terms of competitive play. Such as if you were able to purchase (with real money) an amazing weapon that could increase your damage more than an item available in the game. In a sense, putting you forward on "Leader Boards" faster in actual competitive game play.

Obtaining an exclusive mount or mini pet that does nothing but appeal to aesthetics ..Its not really appealing to the widely accepted term of "Pay to Win". Being as there doesn't seem to be such a thing as "Pet and Mount collector's Leaderboards". Save for..maybe WoW where pet battling exists, but I haven't played it in a while.
Regardless, thing is, this is not ultimately affecting your gameplay as a whole.
I agree that if the Gold marriages somehow get better benefits later on, that may be a bit controversial. But I can't really see it as such right now. Also i doubt people with gold marriages get "first dibs". I think it's a first com first serve basis for scheduling.

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Originally Posted by FireHero

sorry you have to pay me $20 for your smart remarks to bother me. So if you don't pay you don't win.

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It was a joke.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Wait, you mean to tell me getting a mount or some other vanity item lets you win over....who? What's the conflict?

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Win is not just about beating another person in conflict. Look at some of the lower definitions:
"manage to succeed or achieve something by effort.

manage to reach (a place) by effort."

The succeeding and achieving is I now have a mount.
The place I reached by effort is a mount.

It is winning by that definition?

If not, please define winning the game for me please? Is it just beating the latest PvE boss? In that case, everyone who already downed t13 can just leave there is no need for them to play anymore
(oh yeah unless they want all the gear for their class, items that are not necessary)
(Oh or farm primals for more mounts)
(or make some gil to buy vanity items)
(or roleplay and find an IC mate)
(or enjoy putting together a special look for their character)

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

Winning as a term may be subjective, but usually within MMOs the "Pay To Win" as a term means being able to buy things that put you ahead of others in terms of competitive play. Such as if you were able to purchase (with real money) an amazing weapon that could increase your damage more than an item available in the game. In a sense, putting you forward on "Leader Boards" faster in actual competitive game play.

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It doesn't matter what it "usually" means. The reality of the situation is that there is no single absolute definition of "pay-to-win", but if we're going by the definition of the words used (which we should) pay-to-win DOES count when it comes to mounts, minions, or any other cosmetic item that is put into the cash shop.

The only acceptable things to charge real money for are things like server transfers, name changes, and appearance changes.

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Originally Posted by Amused

It was a joke.

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And your talking to me like am stupid good one.

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Originally Posted by Titor

Win is not just about beating another person in conflict. Look at some of the lower definitions:
"manage to succeed or achieve something by effort.

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Im just curious. Would you have preferred a long drawn out quest that involved grinding or heavy battles wiht your spouse and only your spouse that would have perhaps taken an incredibly long time as well as large amounts of gil (perhaps housing prices) and expensive crafting items in order to achieve the mount and minion? This is a legitimate question because it seems like you're wanting something that'd take an immense amount of time and in game money that would, perhaps, effectively gate those who are unable to do those types of things in game.

And if this is not what you had in mind, give me an idea, perhaps? You want something free that gives everyone the exact same thing, but perhaps encourages people to just get married to themselves on separate accounts just to get the mounts / minions? That doesn't seem like something meaningful to me.

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Originally Posted by Amused

It doesn't matter what it "usually" means. The reality of the situation is that there is no single absolute definition of "pay-to-win", but if we're going by the definition of the words used (which we should) pay-to-win DOES count when it comes to mounts, minions, or any other cosmetic item that is put into the cash shop.

The only acceptable things to charge real money for are things like server transfers, name changes, and appearance changes.

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By that definition, Name changes and Appearance changes shouldn't be either. because those would be considered "Strictly Cosmetic".

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

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Yes, actually. A long quest that you would have to be dedicated to do with someone, really wanting to marry them. For the wedding and gear have them different tiers of cost.
Basic would be something cheap, maybe 10k + doing the quest.
Higher tier plans can get up to 1 mil for the outfits, and 2 mil for the mount (or varying on server economy status).
I think housing prices are ridiculous, but not impossible. A large house was something that I /really/ wanted, and in saving up since 2.38 I was able to get a large personal house to myself in 2.4. I did this singlehandedly, no one helped me gather the gil. It was not impossible. If a single person can raise 60 mil over a few months, I think that two people would be able to reasonably be able to raise 2 mil together if they really wanted to get married.

This is also more fair to people on tight RL budgets.

If we really want both people who have tight in-game budgets and tight-RL budgets, I would really really not mind having both options. You can pay for gold in-game for a high amount of gil (like 2-4 mil) or you can pay for it out of game in the cash shop. It would appease both styles of play.

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Originally Posted by Amused

It doesn't matter what it "usually" means. The reality of the situation is that there is no single absolute definition of "pay-to-win", but if we're going by the definition of the words used (which we should) pay-to-win DOES count when it comes to mounts, minions, or any other cosmetic item that is put into the cash shop.

The only acceptable things to charge real money for are things like server transfers, name changes, and appearance changes.

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LOL, you cannot "win" at collecting items unless those items are in limited supply that will never be increased. Only in that case could collecting mounts/minions/vanity items be considered "winning" as you'd be depriving someone else absolutely of ever obtaining that item. You have it, they can never get it. *ding* You win.

However, given that there are no limits to the number of minions/mounts/vanity items the Eternal Bond system has, there is no way to "win". All you can say is that you get to collect it... along with everyone else who pays for the items.

Pay to Win, by it's very nature, does not apply to anything that does not get you ahead of other players in any fundamental way. To get ahead of other players in FFXIV, you'd either have to receive better gear, an ability that is better than any attainable in game, or limited supply items that will run out eventually and not be purchasable in the future. None of which are in the Bond system... ergo, it is not Pay to Win.

the trouble is not that it's pay to win or only cosmetic... and a lot of you seems to miss the point about it.
it's about the fact that a part of a feature was take out and put into a cash shop...
for make simple a feature added in the 2.45 will have a premium option in the cash shop....

can you imagine this adapted to any new feature added to the game? because it can happend if we allows this to pass.
forget the eternal bonding and the reward if you pay cash, put it to the basic of the situation. a feature, advertise in a whole, was strips of a part and this part was added behind the cash shop. it can be the hunt or the futur raid or anything it create a precedent.

what forbide them to adapt this idea of the premium option to any new feature added to the game in the futur? today is the eternal bonding, tomorrow... who know what it will be!

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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You're speaking in hypotheticals. SE hasn't crossed the road past glamour, mounts, and possibly playing cards. If they cross that road into high level gear then, you can complain about it. Until then there's no point talking about what they "might" do.

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

You're speaking in hypotheticals. SE hasn't crossed the road past glamour, mounts, and possibly playing cards. If they cross that road into high level gear then, you can complain about it. Until then there's no point talking about what they "might" do.

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Some people care more about glamour, mounts and cards than high level gear, why shouldn't they complain?

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Some people care more about glamour, mounts and cards than high level gear, why shouldn't they complain?

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That's not what the poster above me was talking about and my response was addressed particularly to that post.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

what forbide them to adapt this idea of the premium option to any new feature added to the game in the futur? today is the eternal bonding, tomorrow... who know what it will be!

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And ultimately regardless of what SE does it will be because a majority of players, or at least enough players support it. Maybe if this game wasn't so devoted to appealing to the lowest common denominator the cries of bloody murder over this and the cash shop in general would mean anything, ultimately we are all easily replaced because SE is casting a broad net. The amount of people who are supportive, or at least indifferent about these decisions far outweigh those who are against it I assure you.

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Originally Posted by Titor

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The problem I see here is that, while you were able to save up for a house, housing adds not just aesthetics. it's constantly evolving and changing. So far, the Marriage system, as far as we know, will be just as it is.
You do gardening and chocobo raising as well as coloring with your homes. Not just for cosmetic reasons but also to grow other items needed for various things in the game. Trying to compaire housing to the marriage system doesn't work because the prices don't fluctuate. And also, not everyone is able to scrape together 3+ mil as easily as you think. Mainly because not everyone is able / want to spend hours of their time crafting or grinding dungeons for cash.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

2. If I pay for the 'Gold' plan, do I have to wait in line to get bonded....because I'm not going to lie: Making me pay extra (likely a lot more than the Odin mount in RL cash btw)...on top of my actual monthly sub...something that already rubs me the wrong way, and then making me wait in line weeks/months etc before I can get a ceremony. Should. Not. Happen. If people pay for the 'Gold' package, they should be able to get married whenever they wish. Afterall, they paid extra for the service, they should be served well.

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I don't think you're quite getting the concept of eternal bonding.
It's not supposed to be a quick "Hey hun let's go get hitched and be back in time for lunch" kinda deal. It's supposed to be a big beautiful event, overblown and overpriced, just like in real life. Well some real life marriages, anyway.
That's the whole thing. A lot of people complaining I don't think have the same opinion on the system as a whole, and in my eyes, these people only want it for the mount, vanity, and perhaps the utility. What you should want it for is the union of you and your beloved betrothed.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

That's the whole thing. A lot of people complaining I don't think have the same opinion on the system as a whole, and in my eyes, these people only want it for the mount, vanity, and perhaps the utility. What you should want it for is the union of you and your beloved betrothed.

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This is how I see it as well.
People shouldn't have to run a gauntlet to get married. if you want a free wedding, it's there. If you want a fancy one, the option is there. You and your spouse should take time and DISCUSS which one you want.
It's meant to take time, and a bit of money if you WANT IT. (honestly it wont' be outrageous. I cant see SE making it too expensive.) This isn't "LOVE BOOT CAMP" for peet's sake.

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

Mainly because not everyone is able / want to spend hours of their time crafting or grinding dungeons for cash.

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I said 2 mil, and on Balmung you can earn 2 mil from spirtibinding for a few hours.
If you cannot put aside a few hours in game with your S/O to earn gil for your wedding, I am not sure if you actually want to get wed O-o;

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Originally Posted by Canadane

[...]in my eyes, these people only want it for the mount, vanity, and perhaps the utility. What you should want it for is the union of you and your beloved betrothed.

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Why should anyone want this system for exactly what you want it for?

This is a digital experience. A digital life. Some people will take that seriously, some people will take that jokingly. However, that doesn't mean that either side is wrong. If people want to get married to get mount, minions, and armor? That is full-well within their right. They are players, and deserve the same respect for their playstyle as you do for yours.

To me; the marriage thing is nothing special. It is between you and someone you are comfortable enough (or hell, in Rift's case: Whoever you can grab! 'cause achievement) to allow yourself to be married to in-game. That doesn't mean you need to act like this is some RL committment, and acutally, for most RP'ers, that would be pushing over an unspoken line of OoC/IC mixing.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Why should anyone want this system for exactly what you want it for?

This is a digital experience. A digital life. Some people will take that seriously, some people will take that jokingly. However, that doesn't mean that either side is wrong. If people want to get married to get mount, minions, and armor? That is full-well within their right. They are players, and deserve the same respect for their playstyle as you do for yours.

To me; the marriage thing is nothing special. It is between you and someone you are comfortable enough (or hell, in Rift's case: Whoever you can grab! 'cause achievement) to allow yourself to be married to in-game. That doesn't mean you need to act like this is some RL committment, and acutally, for most RP'ers, that would be pushing over an unspoken line of OoC/IC mixing.

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This all the way

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Originally Posted by Titor

I said 2 mil, and on Balmung you can earn 2 mil from spirtibinding for a few hours.
If you cannot put aside a few hours in game with your S/O to earn gil for your wedding, I am not sure if you actually want to get wed O-o;

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So because i'd rather spend my time roleplaying or actually having fun instead of sitting around spirit bonding or crafting to get a mass amount of gil with a friend means that i'm supposedly not wanting / deserving of something? Interesting.
So because I didn't have the time or real means or knowledge to play the market board or farm for mats means I wasn't wanting a house as much as everyone else too I suppose, huh? Something tells me that you need to rethink a few things. Mainly, how what other people do with their game time doesn't make them want something any more or less than others.

Just for some perspective. There are 107 minions in the game. Only two are cash shop exclusive. There are 30 mounts in the game. There is one currently in the cash shop and one that may be added to the cash shop. There is a ridiculous amount of gear in this game and only two pieces may be cash shop exclusive. Yep SE is definitely locking all their glamour, mounts, and minions behind the cash shop.

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

And ultimately regardless of what SE does it will be because a majority of players, or at least enough players support it. Maybe if this game wasn't so devoted to appealing to the lowest common denominator the cries of bloody murder over this and the cash shop in general would mean anything, ultimately we are all easily replaced because SE is casting a broad net. The amount of people who are supportive, or at least indifferent about these decisions far outweigh those who are against it I assure you.

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exept it will not be the majority of the playerbase....even in the free to play economic model on 3-5% really invest a lot of cash into it. the point it's viable for them since they can get a tons of cash from this 3-5% of people

a small read that is quite interesting: http://business.financialpost.com/20..._lsa=bc21-6e7f


the worst here it's we have the subs model with the micro transaction... it's... a nonsense, since the cash earn from the subs is far more than enough, SE have said it to them shareholder in them own financial report (you can find it on the site) all of this is more a marketing operation for grabs more cash, because people on IOs buy a lot via micro transaction..... then why not the mmorpg playerbase.

about the fact that it's was not done yet, i'm sorry, but i don't trust anymore SE, too much lie was said in the last months for trust them... the personal housing and hunting are a fair example of how yoshida and it team did lie to us... the eternal bonding is too a nice lie... even if in reality they haven't lie, they have simply for more of 8 month decide to make us pay more for content they have develloped while getting the subs.

actually player of the mmorpg is not really different than a shareholder... we are investing money in them company for get a benefit in game instead to get benefit in money. sadly, more and more dev in the mmorpg loose of sight this, them player are not cow, they are investor that put money into them product every month. when you lie to them or take them for idiot, they leave and the game fail... meaning net loose.

i don't see why they need the cash shop... it's stupid, because like said, the game bring them tons of cash. we can argue that i fight against something that haven't happend, yep that the case. however, if we don't say it yet... like i have said it will be too late when they will do it. because it's coming, the triple triad on ios link to the game is probably bound to have micro transaction into it. meaning people will get advantage...

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

Just for some perspective. There are 107 minions in the game. Only two are cash shop exclusive. There are 30 mounts in the game. There is one currently in the cash shop and one that may be added to the cash shop. There is a ridiculous amount of gear this game and only two pieces may be cash shop exclusive. Yep SE is definitely locking all their glamour, mounts, and minions behind the cash shop.

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what you fail to see, it's not now... but what will happend on the long run... you can say, for now it's ok. it's like the people that cut tree of a forest without replant it... for now we have tons of tree... until later no more tree are left. it's not because now, it don't affect you or are... not important that later, if we don't regulate this sort of add, it will not become really bad.

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Originally Posted by Uielyave

So because i'd rather spend my time roleplaying or actually having fun instead of sitting around spirit bonding or crafting to get a mass amount of gil with a friend means that i'm supposedly not wanting / deserving of something? Interesting.
So because I didn't have the time or real means or knowledge to play the market board or farm for mats means I wasn't wanting a house as much as everyone else too I suppose, huh? Something tells me that you need to rethink a few things. Mainly, how what other people do with their game time doesn't make them want something any more or less than others.

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This exact thing, but substitute game time with RL money.
That... was my point.
RL money to me is like game time to other people.
Which is why we should have both options for these items and services.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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You're dealing with what ifs again. No one knows how much or how little they'll put into the cash shop yet so right now its just pure speculation. We can speculate here until our faces our blue but, it won't do anything until SE does more stuff down the line. There is no point in speculating about that now since there is no way to prove it true for a long time.

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Originally Posted by cookiecutter

You're dealing with what ifs again. No one knows how much or how little they'll put into the cash shop yet so right now its just pure speculation. We can speculate here until our faces our blue but, it won't do anything until SE does more stuff down the line. There is no point in speculating about that now since there is no way to prove it true for a long time.

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When you introduce a game system, and then lock the best of it behind a paywall, that seems to me like pay to win. No need for speculation.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

When you introduce a game system, and then lock the best of it behind a paywall, that seems to me like pay to win. No need for speculation.

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Except nothing is locked behind any pay wall, other than content which is identical in type to other stuff that is ALREADY in the cash shop. The main event, the Eternal Bond, is FREE... only vanity extras cost anything.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Except nothing is locked behind any pay wall, other than content which is identical in type to other stuff that is ALREADY in the cash shop. The main event, the Eternal Bond, is FREE... only vanity extras cost anything.

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Here, I'll bold what you missed.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

When you introduce a game system, and then lock the best of it behind a paywall, that seems to me like pay to win. No need for speculation.

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These are things they advertised for the past year to get subs, developed in that time by money from subs, and should never have been put behind a paywall to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Here, I'll bold what you missed.


These are things they advertised for the past year to get subs, developed in that time by money from subs, and should never have been put behind a paywall to begin with.

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You heard it here first, folks. A chocobo and some dress palette swaps are the best part of the entire game.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

You heard it here first, folks. A chocobo and some dress palette swaps are the best part of the entire game.

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Nice hyperbole, but yes they are among the best parts of the GAME SYSTEM (caps for those slow to comprehend)

Edit:
I'll just stack the hyperbole here

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Originally Posted by Alexia89

You heard it here first, folks. If you get married you win the game. Screw t13, just pay for the gold plan and the title of winner is yours.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Here, I'll bold what you missed.


These are things they advertised for the past year to get subs, developed in that time by money from subs, and should never have been put behind a paywall to begin with.

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So the vanity items are the "best part"? O_o

Here I thought the main reason for a marriage system was to... you know... get married. @_@

Guess I was wrong. </sarcasm>

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Nice hyperbole, but yes they are among the best parts of the GAME SYSTEM (caps for those slow to comprehend)

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And yet they don't even exist in the game system yet. Being a little premature here, aren't we?

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

So the vanity items are the "best part"? O_o

Here I thought the main reason for a marriage system was to... you know... get married. @_@

Guess I was wrong. </sarcasm>

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You don't seem to know many brides...

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

And yet they don't even exist in the game system yet. Being a little premature here, aren't we?

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Eternal bonding is the game system, final fantasy is the game, your intentional misuse of terminology is a bit annoying.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

Eternal bonding is the game system, final fantasy is the game, your intentional misuse of terminology is a bit annoying.

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Eternal Bonding is still in the game for free. The only thing that apparently isn't free is a chocobo (and we don't even know that yet for sure) and some dress palette swaps. That is not locking the "best part" of the system behind a paywall by any means.

Unless, of course, you weren't really interested in the Eternal Bond system itself and just wanted the loot.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

You heard it here first, folks. A chocobo and some dress palette swaps are the best part of the entire game.

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For a system that focuses on a couple's gameplay and enjoyment, yes I would go as far as to say that a 2-person mount is a pretty big part of the system that has now been cutout for them to make a quick buck. They could've just as easily designed a more unique version of it for the paid versions. It would've made the backlash you see on the forums a lot less. I'm not as naive as to say that it wouldn't exist, but not on this scale. Instead they didn't and now even those that wanted to use the system as it was shown to us way before the cash shop was a pipe dream will have to pay to experience patch content as the development team intended. Cash shop is one thing, watering down content to make the paid version more appealing is a completely different beast.

And I wasn't even planning on using this system anyway, but if this is an actual step they're taking I just want to give them my concerns on the matter before it heads any further into content that we all would enjoy. Enjoy the system by all means, or don't it's entirely to you. But for this system, yes I do consider a two-person mount to be a pretty big part and the Dev team does too. It was the first thing they've shown us about the system afterall.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

When you introduce a game system, and then lock the best of it behind a paywall, that seems to me like pay to win. No need for speculation.

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You heard it here first, folks. If you get married you win the game. Screw t13, just pay for the gold plan and the title of winner is yours.

when they are knowing that a system will create.... trouble (like the personal housing) they tend to keep the info until the last minutes... because like this we can't fight it, it's ingame and they can simply wait people forget it.

they have done it with the cash shop... telling it us only 1 week before it hit us, not letting us react. now they can say, people did buy this and this as reason valid to have this feature ingame. it's bad in soo many way.

ps: strangely they did talk of the eternal bond in the live letter and in the Q/A no sign of this part... *shrugs*