FFXIV: ARR becoming TORtanic

I did want to replay ToR main story with different classes. The stories were very good. FF14....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by traja

When you play WoW today you are not playing vanilla end game content nor the next three expansions that followed it. You only play the current expansion which launched two years after the release of the previous one. It is completely incorrect to say that the whole of WoW end game is ten years worth of stuff. Each expansion now releases with a far superior end game compared to FFXIV.

Also that excuse would be amazing in 2004, but it's not 2004 and you can't compete in the past.

---

No it's still a fair comparison. You can't expect them to build from the top down. They have to start somewhere, much like WoW did. And EQ before that. Every MMO starts somewhere. You just have to have the patience to see if it'll grow.

This is one game that isn't competing with WoW for it's long term base that is going to last 5+ years.

This made me laugh. This guy has done almost nothing in the game! He doesn't even have swiftcast from THM.
He hasn't gotten his relic, probably not beaten all the primals. There is still the coil to do! SMN is not complete without the cross class skills!
If you want more stuff to do, complete the coil, then you can complain.
The coil is the most hardest content I've ever faced. It is a skill check on EVERY role with the need for perfect execution. I am very impressed with the endgame, and I cannot wait for more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alish

Please name me an MMO that had a huge abundance of things to do at launch.

---

Vanilla WoW tbh.

Great leveling curve, tons of dungeons to do before cap, then you had reputations to bang out, UBRS, LBRS, Scholomance, UD strat, living Strat, weapons to craft (arcanite reaper, anyone?) etc. Each one was relevant content, and gave you a chance at more than a number at the end (lolTomestones).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sidious

Vanilla WoW tbh.

Great leveling curve, tons of dungeons to do before cap, then you had reputations to bang out, UBRS, LBRS, Scholomance, UD strat, living Strat, weapons to craft (arcanite reaper, anyone?) etc. Each one was relevant content, and gave you a chance at more than a number at the end (lolTomestones).

---

Except a lot of that wasn't there in vanilla WoW at the start. It came over time with patches.

Enjoy hopping to the next shiny, I'm sure TESO will be no better for you.

Quote:

---

- Crafting is very boring and inconsequential and a majority of players have no interest
In wasting their time crafting wherein they could be doing other more fun stuff

---

I lol'd and quit reading at this point.

He is somewhat right about his post. This is exactly how ToR started out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by traja

When you play WoW today you are not playing vanilla end game content nor the next three expansions that followed it. You only play the current expansion which launched two years after the release of the previous one. It is completely incorrect to say that the whole of WoW end game is ten years worth of stuff. Each expansion now releases with a far superior end game compared to FFXIV.

Also that excuse would be amazing in 2004, but it's not 2004 and you can't compete in the past.

---

Too bad its content is super easy and the main reason there are so many bad players here at end game. WoW endgame content better? Lol. People finish that crap in days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GameGeeks

Except a lot of that wasn't there in vanilla WoW at the start. It came over time with patches.

---

Actually, no, that was all in vanilla WoW. # of dungeons in vanilla WoW - not even including endgame raids like MC or Onyxia: 29. # of dungeons in ARR: 16.

ARR spent a lot less time in development than WoW, and more than likely had a much smaller development team, so it makes sense that it's smaller. That said, any comments to the effect of vanilla WoW not having as much content as ARR are just plain incorrect.

You obviously are playing a different game than I am. There are 3 primals to farm and several lvl 50 dungeons. With the next content patch they have already said they will add pvp, a quest that resets all the side quests so you can do those instead of fates to lvl alts, a 24 man dungeon, a new primal fight, and 2 new lvl 50 dungeons. As for making gil, there are easy ways to make gil. you can sell the crafting mats that you buy for the tomes for high prices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feifonwong

He is somewhat right about his post. This is exactly how ToR started out.

---

Not quite. SWTOR had plenty of other problems. People complain about the end game here. In SWTOR their big raids were downed within a 1-2 weeks after people hit cap. Several months down the line? No huge content updates and when the "big one" finally got released? Week later done. FFXIV is offering far more content in it's first patch than star wars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdnyc

Too bad its content is super easy and the main reason there are so many bad players here at end game. WoW endgame content better? Lol. People finish that crap in days.

---

So I gather you have finished all the hard mode raids? If not then don't tell me it's easy because you have no idea. WoW certainly has its flaws but the hard mode raids being too easy is not one of them.

FFXIV doesn't even have raids...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by traja

So I gather you have finished all the hard mode raids? If not then don't tell me it's easy because you have no idea. WoW certainly has its flaws but the hard mode raids being too easy is not one of them.

FFXIV doesn't even have raids...

---

Coils of bahamut don't exist?

P.S. If WoW's hardmode raids are so hard why do they get downed within a week or two? Why hasn't coils of bahamut been beaten yet? It's been a month.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GameGeeks

Except a lot of that wasn't there in vanilla WoW at the start. It came over time with patches.

---

Everything that I just mentioned was in vanilla WoW at release.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sidious

Vanilla WoW tbh.

Great leveling curve, tons of dungeons to do before cap, then you had reputations to bang out, UBRS, LBRS, Scholomance, UD strat, living Strat, weapons to craft (arcanite reaper, anyone?) etc. Each one was relevant content, and gave you a chance at more than a number at the end (lolTomestones).

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrysania

Logical points which are too significant for developers of today's mmo age to grasp

---

The one thing out of all your posts that I have to say is probably most significant as far as what needs to happen is when you said MMO's should just be specialized. This is huge in a number of ways but in practice seems to fail a little due to the companies which want to create specialized mmos not having proper funding. For example, I recently played a game that came out maybe half a year ago or more? It was by Sony Online Entertainment, the game was called Wizardry online. First off, the concepts in that game were amazing, it was almost like an mmo version of dark souls with the level of difficulty, you died...a lot in that game equally by mobs, traps in the maps (god i hated running through maps as a tall elf class and half the traps seemed to target taller players lol), by other players since it was an open pvp game, I actually ended up creating a bounty hunter guild on my server where we would constantly look at wanted posters and go looking for players who were hindering progress of people trying to level. Trash mobs? They could kill you just as easily as a boss, you needed...nay, you WANTED to find a good group of friends to party with to progress even through the very lowest levels of dungeons. You could still get through things alone if you were willing to sit there and farm mobs you can manage to kill alone over and over until you levelled high enough to continue...but it was super inconveniencing, that was a real hardcore mmo (in concept at least).

The problem with that game once you actually played it was the graphics level and many minor details you would just notice while running through dungeons, getting farmed by higher level players who just waited at lower level dungeons to kill noobs etc...But at the end of the day that game could have been epic, what killed it in the end I believe can be generalized to funding, with the right funding many of the mechanics could have been refined and altered to provide a better customer experience, the developers could have focused on different ways to handle the pvp farming, the graphics quality etc...

I say all this to say that there are developers out there with the right ideas, but not the right funding to create GREAT specialized games, the only successful game i can think of out right now would be eve online but how many other companies have the amount of funds ccp games has to develop a new age specialized mmo like that? It seems all the companies with the big money to spend on games only want to embark on projects with the greatest foreseeable return on investment. Honestly I think the next big mmo will be made by whatever indie company ends up with the maximum amount of donations for specialized development.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BefitNeptune

You obviously are playing a different game than I am. There are 3 primals to farm and several lvl 50 dungeons. With the next content patch they have already said they will add pvp, a quest that resets all the side quests so you can do those instead of fates to lvl alts, a 24 man dungeon, a new primal fight, and 2 new lvl 50 dungeons. As for making gil, there are easy ways to make gil. you can sell the crafting mats that you buy for the tomes for high prices.

---

Yeah... about selling crafting materials... I would not do that, to many people got banned for it, as there is no way to control where that money comes from and it seems the better route for SE to just ban the one who tries to make a living ingame instead of banning the RMTs that are the real problem.

I for my part am taking a break till 2.1 as the current "endgame" content is one of the worst in MMOs so far (only having bahamuts coil is rather boring), this is my subjective opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BefitNeptune

[...] a quest that resets all the side quests so you can do those instead of fates to lvl alts, [...]

---

Oh God, that must be a joke. I really hope that they develop new content or make leves, dungeons and guildhest a more viable way to level instead of giving us the option to go all through the same stuff all over again. That's even worse than allowing monster grinding again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sidious

Everything that I just mentioned was in vanilla WoW at release.

---

I'd say that this game has a pretty good amount of dungeons/instanced content to do in general. Besides, your mentioning of the individual dungeons doesn't really mean much given that you already mentioned "tons of dungeons to do before cap" prior. It'd make your statement a lot shorter. Plus, most people didn't repeatedly do those old vanilla instances in one sitting. They weren't exactly short instances for most people, especially prior to 60. In fact, some of them (on average) took longer than 90min to complete.

The weapons to craft, I'd say this game has WoW trumped on that... you know, given that you kinda need crafted weapons to create the relic. Not to mention needing someone with said craft skills to apply materia to them.

Not really sure what you mean by "great leveling curve" though. That it took a full week at minimum to grind out the levels for an average player (that plays 4-6hrs+ a day)? I really don't think that's a positive thing to the majority of players these days.

With the exception of the leveling thing (since I don't know what that's about), it really only leaves the lack of reputations and tomestones mention.

Quote:

---

you honestly enjoy killing a monster for it to drop something that sells 1-3 gil on the npc?

---

Some of those things I can make something out of and sell for 500 on the board, or some thing I can put directly up on the board for 100 each. Want to NPC it? Your problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Welsper59

I'd say that this game has a pretty good amount of dungeons/instanced content to do in general. Besides, your mentioning of the individual dungeons doesn't really mean much given that you already mentioned "tons of dungeons to do before cap" prior. It'd make your statement a lot shorter. Plus, most people didn't repeatedly do those old vanilla instances in one sitting. They weren't exactly short instances for most people, especially prior to 60. In fact, some of them (on average) took longer than 90min to complete.

---

The dungeons I mentioned were only the endgame dungeons that were available at release. If I mentioned ALL of the dungeons--not even including the ones released shortly after the game went live--my statement would be much, much longer. And no, they didn't repeat the dungeons one after another because the game wasn't designed around doing that kind of nonsense-- there was so much to do beyond dungeon grinding. Dungeons were long, complex, and sometimes very easy to get lost in. They were dungeons. It's not nostalgia-- hop on a 3rd party vanilla server today and see for yourself. I recommend one called Emerald Dream.

*This* game was designed around dungeon grinding and instanced content. *This* game has one viable end-game dungeon. You can't have ONE endgame dungeon in a game designed around instanced content. You just can't.

Quote:

---

The weapons to craft, I'd say this game has WoW trumped on that... you know, given that you kinda need crafted weapons to create the relic. Not to mention needing someone with said craft skills to apply materia to them.

---

Most people don't actually *use* the weapon that crafters make. You *used* the weapons and armor that crafters made in vanilla WoW. The arcanite reaper, the lionheart helm, etc. And the relic weapon isn't that hard to make. It doesn't take time, it doesn't take effort. I have it. The only roadblock was Titan. And even he is pretty darn easy with a group that I preformed/gearchecked.

Quote:

---

Not really sure what you mean by "great leveling curve" though. That it took a full week at minimum to grind out the levels for an average player (that plays 4-6hrs+ a day)? I really don't think that's a positive thing to the majority of players these days.

---

It took a lot more than a week to get to cap in vanilla for the average player. It wasn't negative then and it's not negative now-- if the game is actually good. And really, what evidence do you have to support such a claim to the contrary when every ultra-casual P2P MMO has fallen on its face?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemma

I think its funny when people call us "White Knights" just because we are having fun lol

---

Your not a White Knight for enjoying the game.

Your a White Knight when your adoration for the game causes you to completely ignore fundamental flaws in the game.

Do I agree with the op? On some notes but not really, this game has far more hook then ToR did.

However it would be amazingly foolish to not realize the game has a bunch of things to fix if it wants to remain competitive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yoko_Kurama

Lots of good points and well thought-out observations.

---

I don't disagree at all that its very probably a funding issue. The temptation to try to please everyone all the time isn't new though, and its lessons are numerous. In no industry has it ever been more than a fluke for something to please even most a significant portion of the time.

But the MMO industry on the whole is learning. Games like MOBAS (Looking at you, League of Legends and DOTA2) offer a rather specialized experience on a platform that caters to that experience exclusively. At no point playing LoL (for the chiefest example I can make) will you have to go run around a maze of a city and spend three hours trying to find a quest objective.

If you love PVP in RTS games, LoL might just be your dreamboat. It isn't trying to cater to everyone; its targeting a very specific (and very significant thus-worth-targeting) market, and it is (at least attempting) to deliver to them an EXCELLENT experience in that niche.

Pan your gaze over to World of Warcraft. That game's done the improbable; it pulled off trying to please everybody all the time well enough to become a phenomenon of the digital age. Its success will not be replicated because that success hinged far more on circumstances than anything Blizzard specifically did.

In effect, they won the perfect-storm lottery. Financial interests that understand significantly less about causality than they do money wanted to somehow get in on that cash cow, and so trying to make MMO's have something for just about everyone became the standard.

No MMO that patterned itself off of WoW even loosely has done all that great. Some have done moderately ok at times, but they've struggled to pull off even shaky, intemperate success. Why? Because even if their game was arguably better at being like WoW than even WoW was at times and in places, they didn't have the circumstances WoW did.

Now look over at EVE Online. That right there is a game that did it right because they (rather cleverly) identified an extremely exploitable market, took a chance and turned it into something rock solid. EVE is a game that is not for everyone. Depending on what you look for in a game, you'll probably hate it or love it. If you like the sort of thing it offers, there's a lot to love. If you don't...it isn't even going to try to please you. Its not your game.

CCP's success with EVE is replicable, because it achieved that success far more by design than chance. WoW's phenomenal success is mostly the product of chance. It has remained successful in great part due to Blizzard successfully pairing design off to that unparalleled success, but it did not achieve that success by design.

If ARR truly wanted to succeed, Yoshi would've looked more closely at games like EVE and LoL not for design inspiration, but for method and infrastructure.

In the end though, investors of a publically traded international holding aren't often as in-the-know as they sometimes think they are. He was probably dealing with execs that needed to soothe and coddle investors as well as their own pride, and its the historical precedent for ultra-conservatism to dominate mindsets when its desperate-measures-time.

Patterning a lot off WoW is safe. Even if its tactically unsound, parroting the successful often looks safe on paper, and investors are often caring about very little other than doing the safe thing when its hit the fan. I suspect that Yoshi would've been swept aside and replaced by someone that would do the safe thing quite quickly even if he'd wanted to pattern off of anything but WoW.

It is, in any case, entirely possibly so. If it was not the case and Yoshi had a genuine degree of control over the design...then he simply made the same mistake so many have in thinking that WoW's success ever had to do with anything formulaic and thus repeatable.

You still can't please everyone all the time. If you try to design your product to do so, you'll be far more likely to generate a lot of annoyance, some tolerance and a negligible quantity of novelty approval.

Pick your thing and do it well. Don't try to be forgettably mediocre at everything.

Still sage advice. Even here in MMOland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrysania

Snip

---

Why did you Necro this thread? The OP had good points 2 months ago, most of those issues have been addressed and fixed at this point and contain very little relevance anymore.

Because unlike some, I don't have time to live on a forum every day. I reply to things when I find them. Also, the last post prior to mine was about a month ago. Not two. Cheerio.

Haha, why are so many people still accusing people of rushing? This game has been out for months now, just because you focused on one or two classes and not all of them does not mean you rushed. Personally I work 40-50+ hrs a week, have a relationship and 2 dogs, and I'm still 50 on my main and 4 crafts, have been doing coil for about 2 weeks now (which is refreshing after grinding dungeons). I have absolutely 0 interest in grinding FATEs, mindlessly spamming aoe spells/abilities and not even getting to play my class as intended is not my thing and although I think some of the reasoning the OP suggested is irrelevant I really have to say there IS NOT a lot to do in this game currently as some people are suggesting. I understand this is launch and I'm more than happy to give the game time to implement content but at this rate I know about 10 people who have quit due to lack of content and I don't want to see that number continue climbing because people have nothing to do.

CAPS AND LARGE FONTS TOTALLY WILL GET THE ATTENTION OF THE DEVELOPMENT TEAM, I HEARD PURPLE TEXT ALSO WORKS TO

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- No PvP upon launch (even SWTOR had PvP on Launch)

---

Don't care FF has never been a PVP Focused game and if that is what you need feel free to check out many other games that focus on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Little Post-Game Stuff to do (AK,CP Runs, Long Duty Finder Queue, Tomes Farming)
Very boring and repetitive stuff.

---

Unlike every new game that doesn't have 10+ years of content and expansion packs?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Little incentive to do a max level alt class, leveling them is entirely dependent
Upon mindless Fates grinding and minuscule leve quests, seriously why shouldn't
former low lvl quests reset for a low level alt?

---

If you are looking for the fastest way to the end this is true, however if you actually enjoy the game and playing it you have many options for leveling. You dont need to 'beat' the 'unbeatable' game in the first week its out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Crafting is very boring and inconsequential and a majority of players have no interest
In wasting their time crafting wherein they could be doing other more fun stuff

---

I like crafting and based on the hundreds of people standing around crafting I think your opinion here is just that YOUR OPINION but thank you for telling me how I like to play my game and what I enjoy and don't

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Worthless monster drops that give nothing but stupid crafting materials

---

versus ... what? you want to find some bad ass epic on a level 5 mob?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Very hard to accumulate Gil in this game because monster loot sucks.

---

Do you only rely on killing enemies for their gold drops? If so you will find yourself in a bad place in any MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- Ridiculous teleportation and repair fees

---

See Above - If you rely soley on that gold drop from enemies to finance your time in the game I could see these being 'ridiculous'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- No server transfers upon launch

---

Who cares and its live now? Are you bitching for the sake of bitching?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Juubi

- No vanity/fashion items upon launch

---

My bag is full of swimsuits, Usagi Kabuto masks, ghost costumes, etc. There is RP gear all over this game have you tried looking for it?

uh-huh, ARR's whiteknights say exactly same stuff as tortanic's whitenights... Tortanic too was getting content slow(and bugfixes) and how did it turned out? Casuals played trough most of the relevant content and quit.

yet here you are... and what does that make you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ashikenshin

yet here you are... and what does that make you?

---

what's your favorite food?

The plans for 2.1 look...potentially promising, from my angle. Housing could be a great thing. I don't see much stated for addressing any core problems I perceive though, and that vexes me. Implementation is fact though. It all comes down to what they do, not what they say.

And so I remain and wait.

The content availability is pointless to argue about because history shows western MMORPG players are very fickle. WoW had a long period of relatively no content but did fine, while other games died under similar circumstances. It's impossible to say with any confidence how this fickle playerbase will react to content (or lack there of) updates.

However, if anything's going to kill this game, it's going to be the technical problems. The world server and the instanced servers are still really lagged and seems to be getting worse over time, and of course there's the ever present server-based lag. No WoW or any other game was never this bad a month after launch unless you were on either the hamster-just-died server or the (really cool name) server, not to mention there's about 10 years for people to learn from the kind of problem you ought to expect dealing with servers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astarica

The content availability is pointless to argue about because history shows western MMORPG players are very fickle. WoW had a long period of relatively no content but did fine, while other games died under similar circumstances. It's impossible to say with any confidence how this fickle playerbase will react to content (or lack there of) updates.

---

You can't compare "these" games to WoW. LOTRO, Terra, etc they all failed for failed for the same reasons: Theme Park mmorpg, ppl ran out of things to do in the few months due to the instant gratification unless you are WoW. (that turned into instant gratification mmorpg waaaay after it was launched)

Also ppl need to stop to use the >"B-but FFXI didn't have many things at launch either!!!", yeah, because FFXI could afford it. It came out in a era when mmorpg weren't widespread, Internet wasn't such widespread and it was released ON PS2 first. What kind of competition did he have?

To me I feel SE isn't really catering to the rest of the world only to it's own people. I mean come on and think about it. Japanese servers haven't had no where near the same amount of maintenanace as us NA/EU players have. When they do get around to us, they seem to like to leave us in the dark on what's going on with the game or with stuff to come, see how the video of 2.1 and housing crap didn't come out for a whole week after it aired there in Japan. So far they're doing a decent job on trying to hold subs, but lately all these Maintenance they keep throwing at us won't help in the long run, because it seems with every patch or down time we've recently gotten something else goes wrong or the current problems at hand still aren't fixed for many of the players.

I too hope SE gets their Head out their ass and steps the game up, cause much longer of this crap and they can say good bye to quite a bit of the subs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taruranto

You can't compare "these" games to WoW. LOTRO, Terra, etc they all failed for failed for the same reasons: Theme Park mmorpg, ppl ran out of things to do in the few months due to the instant gratification unless you are WoW.

---

But why didn't WoW die? Is it just that special? Sure it's easy to say 'more content > less content', but if that was all there is to it then WoW wouldn't be #1 either because there's definitely a period of time where WoW had no meaningful content update. I don't think FF14 will do fine if it just stands around doing nothing, but I'm not convinced that having a frantic pace of new content is going to change things around either. While players demand a ton of new stuff for their $15/month, the said players apparently had no problem with paying $15/month for nothing new in sight too. I'd be more concerned about the game's technical problems (server lag mostly) first.

Wow, this troll thread got to 28 pages. smh....

You people are unbelievable. Just ignore the guy. Here are some easy steps to follow:

1) Click on link
2) Read Post
3) Spend a few seconds determining whether the person is serious or is looking for attention (troll)
4) If serious, up to you to post or not
5) If troll, laugh out loud at the poor attempt to get a response and go to another thread

Simple. If you follow these easy steps, the trolls will go away. You are never going to win an argument against a troll. They want you to get riled up and spend time posting your rebuttal in order to get a rise.

Please, just ignore these morons, and they will eventually go to another game and ruin their community.

1 month Necro by Chrysania. Content is no longer relevant. Please - let it die.

Yes at this point it really shouldn't be about content, it should be about SE stepping their game up and fixing the current problems at hand.
Yes I know we've had maintenance quite often, but for some reason or another SE refuses to communicate with its' community and has yet tell us if they plan on fixing anything or do they plan on continuing the consistent down times and have no "Updates"/"Hot-fixes" for us to view.
How hard is it really to say oh hey maintenance again (as usual...) this is what we plan on fixing, this is what we broke, this is still broken even after maintenance, so be prepared for 2-3 more maintenance down times this week....
I don't get how this game came out with early access (me being part of that early access with so many others) and all these bugs/problems every week seem to be popping up more and more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Randalthor

Wow, this troll thread got to 28 pages. smh....

You people are unbelievable. Just ignore the guy. Here are some easy steps to follow:

1) Click on link
2) Read Post
3) Spend a few seconds determining whether the person is serious or is looking for attention (troll)
4) If serious, up to you to post or not
5) If troll, laugh out loud at the poor attempt to get a response and go to another thread

Simple. If you follow these easy steps, the trolls will go away. You are never going to win an argument against a troll. They want you to get riled up and spend time posting your rebuttal in order to get a rise.

Please, just ignore these morons, and they will eventually go to another game and ruin their community.

---

To be precise -you will never win an argument on the Internet, because the "arguments" normally consist of two or more people spouting opinions at each other with no intention to change their stance. It's like television - entertaining, but the outcome won't change no matter how much you wish it would.