Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

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Originally Posted by Hypn0tyk

Given that Machinist is a pure firepower job, its feels kind of sad that it is the lowest damage job in the game right now.

Without the 1% party composition bonus, many groups wouldn't even bring a physical ranged job at all, and nobody wants two of them.

The buff from 550 to 570 of course helps a small amount, but it amounted to a very tiny increase and not only did most other jobs get boosts, but nearly all of them got larger ones.

I think its worth mentioning that increasing the potency of Drill, Air Anchor, and Chainsaw to 800 would result in MCH still being a below-average DPS job.

I really enjoy MCH, but its hard to justify playing it when I can play other jobs that just contribute way more to the team, and are easier to play.

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i feel they did try to balance too much the game, making everyone close by (we can see it with the top of the dps, but they did forget that role of dps are not the same for all.

sam, blm and mch have no damage buff, in a game where damage is soo important, making them not be the top three of the dps is something weird.
as SAM player if the BLM or the MCH can beat me i'm ok with it since after all they fill the same role than me. a selfish dps.

what bother me is be behind jobs like drg, mnk and rpr that have party buff... making my place in raid discutable. balance is something difficult, it's a given, but when jobs that bring buff can deal more damage than me that have 0 buff... what the point of bring a sam, why not bring a mnk+drg or rpr+drg all in all, they need to pay attention to the role the dps have... some are selfish dps and needed (when well played) to be the best dps and other are here for bring utility or buff...

and before someone come say it's because you are biased for the sam, i will answer this, i remember still how my monk time was in the v1 and in the v2 until they did decide to change the mnk from a selfish dps to a dps with party buff... how mnk was looked as a paria in the 2.x and i simply want them to not forget the error of the past. is not that selfish dps don't have them place in the game, is simply they need to make people understand that selfish dps is here for fill a role. they need to make that a good selfish dps supported by buffer will help soo much the raid that teamplay will come back. and we don't talk of simply sharing a lot of buff will continuing to play on his side.

all in all, the situation of the mch, sam and blm is not normal... (and it don't means i find the situation of other jobs that need to be adressed normal too.)

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Originally Posted by WiccaP

I think a lot of people get confused when we compare MCH with BLM and Sam. At least to me, it seems that people think we want mch to do the same dmg as blm and sam. What I am speaking about if you put them in their job roles magic dps, melee, and ranged phys, blm is at the top of magic, sam is usually fighting for top spot of melee, mch should be top dps in the ranged physical category and we arent. Also on the topic of mch, I understand that we are a selfish dps class, but even blm and sam have personal dmg buffs or healing dmg mitigation, but Mch is the only job that doesnt have anything outside of a role action(second wind) and an ability shared by all 3(tactician)

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i feel that each of them must be the top dps in them category that a given and no sam must'nt fight to be the best dps in melee... since all other melee jobs bring utility and partybuff while sam don't.

by the way sam too have only have role skill for survive and one skill (third eyes) that reduce the damage of the next damage of 10% on a very short windows. it's simply melee have one more role skill for survive bloodbath. honestly when healer are bad in a raid i'm quite scared since we did loose the self healing after third eye.

Chart looks fine to me for the most part. The only things that stick out are that monk should not be above blm and sam. It has utility and it's not any more difficult to play than either so it being top of the charts is a little silly (but less silly than reaper being there back when the expansion started). the other is mch, who should probably be either above or below red mage. Kinda hard to say. On the one hand it has less utility than red mage so I would be inclined to say higher, but on the other it's definitely on the easy side of things so that knocks it down a bit.

There's no problem with Monk being the highest potential dps due to the way Chakra disproportionately rewards them with more attacks for getting crit from sources like DNC and SCH. It requires more specific compositions and probably doesn't really calculate extra uses of Forbidden Chakra due to external crit buffs in favor of those external sources.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Raise is straight up worth the damage loss when being picky about jobs comes into play (outside of speedclears). Watch any world-first or serious progression group. BLM in these scenarios competes with the potential of a second melee not with the caster slot. Outside of those scenarios (and speedclears) it really doesn't matter what job you choose specifically they will all clear content. SMN is probably still a little undesirable compared to RDM, but not by a big margin and I'm sure serious RDMs are happy to not be prog-mages for a tier.

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I still think raise shouldn't be taken in account of balance.
They're a nice comfort, but why should RDM and SMN suffer a DPS loss because someone else made a mistake? You already pay the res with the res debuff.
BLM would still need to be above the 2 other casters, but if they are that low because of the res, the tax is too high.

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

There's no problem with Monk being the highest potential dps due to the way Chakra disproportionately rewards them with more attacks for getting crit from sources like DNC and SCH. It requires more specific compositions and probably doesn't really calculate extra uses of Forbidden Chakra due to external crit buffs in favor of those external sources.

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that the trouble here, because of the party buff and chakra gain monk must'nt be the most powerfull jobs around, period... the jobs normally that must have the most potential en terms of damage must be SAM and BLM, yes they don't have party buff, but technically the party buff must be put on them, if even with all this buff they are below a monk or reaper we have a trouble.

people tend to forget that a lot of the chart take in account that sam/blm get buffed by them party, if they fall behind, what the point to bring them? if someone else can bring partybuff and be the best damage dealer you will not bring selfish dps. if the synergie between buff render selfish dps irevellant we will go back at the situation of the drg+brd of the 2.x.

don't get me wrong, the selfish dps for be the best, need to be played well and receive the support of the team, but if even with this they are below of the rest... they have no reason to exist. it's time to understand that some dps will not be the topdog because they are not there for be the top dogs. if all jobs become selfish dps, where is the teamplay? what the point to even think at what jobs you will bring in your raid? or how synergize between jobs. i want to remember everyone that ff14 is a MMO and in this you have multiplayer, you don't play alone.

in old game you had even class that was dealing shit dps but was essential to the group by the buff or utility they was bringing. by making everyone similar no one is special anymore and in a same time no one have identity anymore.

when i play SAM i know that i must bring my A game for be the best, for make sure that i fullify my role as SAM. when i play paladin i do my best for tank or support the mt, when i play dancer i make sure to keep my buff up and support the team the best i can... that the point of play in group. i feel endwalker have take a turn to the worst with the balance. is not because sam/blm and even potentially mch can become the best dps in selfish dps that other will have no place, since for this dps to shine, it need the buffer, need the debuffer and such... is how the group is make that will create a better synergy.
it like the synergy between a healer and a shielder. together they can make incredible thing... if you have 2 healer or 2 shielder it will lead to ankward situation, is possible to pass the content, but it will be harder.

To me it’s pretty simple:
1)All DPS are evaluated against all other DPS. You could have cleared with four Summoners if you wanted to. We have the numbers to support that.
1) Selfish DPS should be worth more than Raid DPS due to multiplicative stacking generally inflating the latter.
2) Jobs with higher execution barriers (Hardcasts/Channels, Melee range, Positionals, higher APM, Gauge/Cooldown Bloat) should be worth more than jobs with less to worry about.
3) Conversely, jobs with affordances that make it easier to be consistent (Dashes, Range, instant casts, less buttons, buttons light up that are always the right choice) get taxed for those extra affordances. Either
4) Powerful and unique non-DPS Utility that makes you better at fixing other people’s mistakes or preventing a wipe (Raises, Healing throughput, mitigation) or has the potential to invalidate or otherwise replace other roles (AoE healing in particular) needs to be taxed accordingly.
5) If any factor in the above is role based you don’t compare it within that role unless it isn’t applied equally (Raises, Combos, Positionals, Defensives), but you do when comparing between them (Addle > Tactician > Feint. Bloodbath and Second Wind).

Generally speaking, if I were to select one DPS from each role to be the closest to one another, it would be Red Mage, Machinist, and Ninja, smack dab in the middle. If I were to nominate a role that should be the most spread out in contribution, it would be caster DPS (BLM > RDM > SMN). And I do not think that is controversial. I’ve raided in two expansions with Triple Caster (BLMx2/SMN/BRD Gordias, BLM/SMN/RDM/SAM Omega) where it was considered to be objectively harder if you didn’t follow the meta. This game doesn’t ask anything of you beyond being willing to try. Every class and party combo CAN clear (I had WHM/AST for both of those groups). The devs have always allowed for it.

What’s not okay is everyone expecting to be balanced perfectly by some subset of DPS. All of those above factors (and some I don’t agree with, like popularity) are something you’d expect to be included in SE’s own metrics (Literally the only thing that explains Monk). We have an explicit flex slot and extra stats/LB generation to encourage spreading out roles. They assume the worst of us WILL be progging the whole tier. All we’re whining about is stuff that will only half matter for 6.2 World First and only Machinist (and Monk) are specifically out of line in that regard. Compared to how it looked pre-6.08 I’ll take it till they overbuff Summoner again.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Generally speaking, if I were to select one DPS from each role to be the closest to one another, it would be Red Mage, Machinist, and Ninja, smack dab in the middle. If I were to nominate a role that should be the most spread out in contribution, it would be caster DPS (BLM > RDM > SMN). And I do not think that is controversial.

https://i.imgur.com/QdbtgZ1.png

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The problem with your statement if you go around on other threads showing how biased you are on the situation. Nobody is asking, "make my job the best. But face it, BLM is currently rolling with a 600~700 DPS lead. It's not just SMN, even RDM spot for optimized run is in jeopardy. Melees are the strongest jobs right now and you're telling me only 1 caster out of all casters and ranged physical can do Melee damage? Just bring that caster!

Here is the issue; BLM was handed roughly 4% damage boost. It was already stronger than other casters, it was already much stronger than MCH. MNK was the best DPS, it got a buff. That's the problem, some jobs got questionable changes. Don't tell me that it's about melee uptime and mobility;

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0/IMG_7865.jpg

Look at this P3S strat where the one ranged phys is dealing with the tornado and how you'll have your BLM safe, in the middle, not moving, using his mobility options for DPS gain because the fight was optimized for BLM to do so.

I'm not even gonna bother resaying anything about SMN vs RDM. SMN core issue lies in the way the job design is to begin with. But there's multiple posts about this already.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

• How Machinist deserved such a buff to be the worst DPS by a significant margin compared to the second worst.
• How did Monk deserve a buff?
• How did Black Mage deserve a 4% DPS buff? They needed a small buff but that's not a small buff they've gained.
• Why your best Machinist player is behind by 1100 DPS against your best Monk player who also received a buff.

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1. One class is ALWAYS going to have to be at the bottom, and it just so happens that right now it's Machinist. This doesn't mean they're bad or need to be fixed. Let's say we buff them so that they are now stronger than Summoner. What happens next? Are you gonna complain about how SMN needs a buff? Like this is basic common sense, please use your heads. If you discriminate against a job just because they are the "lowest DPS", then you are a moron. "Lowest DPS" isn't the same as "low DPS".

2. Monk is one of the hardest jobs to play properly. While it's somewhat easy to consistently get higher-than-average numbers, to outclass most of the other DPS you have to play absolutely PERFECTLY. Combine that in a job that needs 100% melee uptime, has to continuously plate-spin 3 different buffs to make sure what their next move is, with a 1.94 GCD, ON TOP of paying attention to fight mechanics, I feel it's pretty fair to allow them to sit on top if they manage to pull it off. And again, similar to my earlier point - one class always has to be on top. Did monks NEED a buff? No. But given the points I mentioned, I don't see the point in arguing against it.

3. Similar to Monk, Black Mage is another one of the hardest classes to play. You need to have the fight down to where you can recall how it'll happen in your head, the possibilities, etc., so you can minimize movement as much as possible. On top of that, you have no party buffs. It's purely just about YOUR damage. Given that they were underperforming earlier in the expansion, the fact that they were buff feels more than justified.

4. Doing well as Monk takes a lot more skill and effort than doing well as Machinist. One has a higher complexity character-wise, and needs to stay close to the boss to be effective. The other can literally be anywhere in the map while still doing damage. But again - you are being INCREDIBLY small-minded. You are projecting this notion that just because MCH is doing less damage, it means they are weak. The extra 1100 damage the Monk does is BONUS DAMAGE that was obtained from playing well. It is not necessary to clear content.

Anyway, here are some extra bonus points for you:

- I agree that people do like high numbers, and so MCH could definitely use some buffs to at least make them somewhat closer to BRD. But again, remember that someone will always have to be on the bottom, and it should be the easier-to-play classes.

- Consistency matters. Notice how Warrior is the weakest tank, yet on average in most fights, they end up outperforming other tanks. This is because of CONSISTENCY. It's a lot easier to be consistent on a Warrior, than it is to be consistent on something like Gunbreaker or Paladin. So even though this chart makes it seem as though Monk is DOMINATING the charts, you will see PLENTY of scenarios where MCH ends up doing the highest damage in a fight.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

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1- Yes, but right now that difference is about 1.1k DPS and the difference is too high. If they want DPS to be Melee>Caster>Melee then it should be properly balanced that way. BLM is currently melee DPS level which devalues other casters. MCH is pretty underwhelming even when compared to other Ranged Physical...

2- Every job is easy, all reworks and new jobs in EW are easy and accessible. MNK does require and has a higher ceiling. MNK also requires really cursed and forbidden knowledge to top the charts along with good ping. If you have bad ping, you may as well just abandon MNK or even MCH in the matter. Skill floor and ceiling will always be a thing, some are gonna be harder and easier to obtain. The problem with MNK hard ceiling is it'S gated through 3rd party programs if you happen to not live near the servers.

3- BLM currently do 600~700 more DPS than RDM/SMN. That entirely invalidates both casters from optimized DPS runs. If you're gonna put a caster the same DPS than Melee who reigns king. People will bring that caster. It does, however, enables double caster comps if people want the raise support which is taxed way too much.

4- That's highly debatable, I'm one that struggles with priority system rotation, it would take me a lot more effort than MNK. I use a VPN since Stormblood because, ironically, I was a main MNK and couldn't get my 5th Perfect Balance GCD without a VPN. You'll never see me orange a MCH log but if I were to put serious time on MNK, I would easily have one. I could even say, with no effort. Practice makes master.

I just want to add, there is no greyer line than job complexity. You can argue that some are more difficult yeah but it shouldn,t warrant a 1.1k rDPS difference. Mobility is being taxed wrongly, if anything, I got 2 examples were mobility adds DPS for everyone but the Ranged Phys / SMN.

- That post on the P3S I just posted. I'd like to have the RPR go north for the tornado. Since it's a DPS mechanic, he should do it. Wait, you're losing uptime? Maybe have the BLM, he's ranged. Oh wait, the BLM is using his mobility tools for DPS so it would lower his DPS to use it for that mechanic? Oh.... Too bad for you my dude. What the hell am I saying, just have your Ranged Physical DPS there. Because he's mobile, he actually trivialize all caveats of melee uptime and casting.

- In UCoB, Liquid Hell is handled by the furthest person of Twintania, have the BLM do it! Who cares about DPS, mechanics first right? Or even that DRG. No, no way, you'll have your MCH do it because he has this mobility. Again, the MCH mobility trivializes the caveats of that BLM casting issue and the melee uptime.

You want a situation thay its actually a caveat? UCoB again, Hatches goes on a random DPS, you have to disengage, you lose melee uptime. Greeding there can kill the party. You also drop the mechanic on a circle that lowers your damage. That has happened so many times on my DRG and it desyncs my rotation.

So what, in order for jme to see a "DPS Gain" from my mobility, we should ask for mechanics like Hatch in savage content? People will be so mad about it, a lot more than right now it is not viable. Should we tax other DPS that mobility helps them? How are you even gonna do that when WAR literally gives DPS to healers because they are a healer themselves.

I get your point but I strongly believe it is wrong. Mobility doesn't provide the person DPS, it helps to deal with mechanics which, as a side effect, helps the melees and BLM. Yet, you'd have melees and BLM do 1k more DPS than MCH? That's straight up messed up. It is messed up to the same degree than this BRD in SB who quit my static because I went MNK over DRG and he wouldn't get Piercing Debuff for his logs. The best solution is to just adjust the ranged physical and casters to be like 1% to 2% difference with melee. It is the easiest and most likely better solution. Because if you're saying an average BRD will do better than an average MNK because MNK is harder, let me tell you, your average bard will miss procs and mess his song timers. I'm not saying to make me the strongest but I'm asking a proper balance. And a rethink of how SMN works because its pretty hell.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

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What's up these days with these wrong takes...

1. Yes there will always be a bottom but MCH is not a suitable job for the bottom.
It only brings DPS, it should at the minimum have a correct DPS.
DNC brings healing and shielding, yet it's above MCH. Imagine if BLM was below SMN and RDM.

In the melee case, if we use your logic, then NIN and DRG would be the top, RPR and MNK would be bottom in the Melee group.

2. No, MNK is in the average APM.
It's below SAM, DRG and GNB due to its very low number of oGCD.
Also dude... Everyone needs to look out for mechanics. It's not a MNK problem, especially when your mobility tool is a non damaging oGCD and you have little oGCDs.

Ninja and MCH are much higher APM than MNK.

3. On a complexity scale of 0 to 100, SMN is a 1, BLM is a 15, 20 at most.
You gotta stop thinking it's a complex job when each expansions just gives more and more mobility. You can become a ranged for 10 GCDs.

4. Again, it's not a "Monk exclusive problem", it's every job.
Every job needs to play well to deal damage. Every melee needs to stay close to the boss.
MNK is not complex, uptime is not difficult especially in this tier. Remember most group seeks the most uptime strats and

Sorry but you're the one narrow-minded.
Free mobility, "GCD job", average APM.
MNK is among the easiest job

Oh yeah about your consistency argument, get ready to implode:
In 6.05, DRK could AFK a whole minute to respect mechanics and still outdps PLD.
Currently, I wouldn't doubt BLM could AFK and still outdps SMN/RDM.
This is why we need balance.

It's not the MCH fault if you die or fail to maintain your uptime
But in UCOB, UWU, TEA, O11S it was their responsibility to deal with mechanics so you could have your uptime.