Dragoons need to be buffed...

Drgs are nothing to sneeze at. Their sustain is lower then Mnks, but they are still the king of bursts. They can burst like no tomorrow if you need them to. 3 GCD to max out damage mods is a dang fine thing.

They balancing each other decently. Sometimes mnks are good, sometimes drg are good, sometimes both aren't bad.

And mandatory positional aren't really...that mandatory. Heavy is a 1st step, and ID is a 1st step. The only 2 you need to be in position are both 1st step.

That means at most you loose a GCD worth of damage, and that's way way way better then loosing GL. that requires 9 steps.

If a drg isn't stingy about his timing, that means his buffs like BfB and IR are both well timed to be right in the middle of a no positional rotation, making the duration even more damaging.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

How is his post wrong? You lose potency, for sure. But you can stay at the rear and still maintain GL3.

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He says:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

But you can just sit on the rear the entire time on Monk and never lose Greased Lightning stacks. Thus there is no mandatory positional for Monk. Now do that with Dragoon.

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Out of position MNK loses 75 potency on Boostshine; 50 potency on dragon kick; and 40 potency on true strike, snap punch, twin snakes and demolish. DPS loss ranges from a whopping 50% to a still really terrible 26%.

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

Just eyeballing it I would guess that the DPS loss for both classes is actually around the same. But guesswork aside, it's just flat out wrong to state that MNK loses almost nothing being out of position because "GL will still be up". A MNK does not need to be in position to activate their buffs but the trade-off is a DPS loss on all of their abilities when done out of position (with the exception of Touch of Death and...Haymaker :rolleyes:)

Neither are "mandatory", but you'll probably be out-DPS'd by a BRD if you ignore all positional requirements for both classes.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

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That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That means at most you loose a GCD worth of damage, and that's way way way better then loosing GL. that requires 9 steps.

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GL is not lost from positional requirements, DRG's buff and DOT rotation are halted completely when not done in the right place. I understand your statement, but it has nothing to do with positional requirement.

MNK has a slower ramp-up, and ultimately has the best DPS. DRG has a more mechanically vulnerable, yet quicker ramp up. I think the balance between the two is perfect.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If a drg isn't stingy about his timing, that means his buffs like BfB and IR are both well timed to be right in the middle of a no positional rotation, making the duration even more damaging.

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Unfortunately, DRG's buffs are usually best used during the positional part of the rotation.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Neither are "mandatory", but you'll probably be out-DPS'd by a BRD if you ignore all positional requirements for both classes.

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I don't understand why you replied. You stated "you're joking right" yet you reinforced what Exstal said. A monk will lose potency but can sit at the rear of a boss and maintain 100% uptime on his buffs. Ergo, monk buffs are not mandatory on position. Heavy thrust and Impluse Drive buffs (let alone the choas thrust combo) can only activate with landing the correct position. Ergo, they are mandatory. As noted, neither class will play well without landing positionals.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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Outside of Demon Wall in AK (only cannot reach the rear) how often does this occur? No other fight comes to mind. A monk, however, will lose more dps when boss mechanics cause GL to drop off over a dragoon starting up again (as noted by Jet).

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Well yeah, it helps that those are starting moves. That's why I mentioned when they show up within the rotation (which for brevity I shortened).

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

I don't understand why you replied. You stated "you're joking right" yet you reinforced what Exstal said. A monk will lose potency but can sit at the rear of a boss and maintain 100% uptime on his buffs. Ergo, monk buffs are not mandatory on position. Heavy thrust and Impluse Drive buffs (let alone the choas thrust combo) can only activate with landing the correct position. Ergo, they are mandatory. As noted, neither class will play well without landing positionals.

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My stance is this: MNK must always be positioned. DRG must be positioned at key moments. To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation. If he's talking only about what is needed to activate buffs than yes, he is correct. But I got the sense that he was talking about DPS in general. Not just about positional buffs.

EDIT: Yeah I just double-checked, the reply was just about positionals. Not specifically positional buffs.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation.

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I don't disagree, but the mentioned "very long rotation" has 5 positionals, not 2.

If DRG gets a buff to his damage, can monk get a buff to where GL3 is always on? /sarcasm off.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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In any race but a sustain dps race drg wins. That's what being a drg is all about. They are the all-purpose-goto-dps.

Drg should never be in a position where they are worthless. They cover pretty much all their bases at the cost of being top dog.