What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

https://i.imgur.com/MkMkPd0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FrZ002G.jpg

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We never made a promise to Venat. She made a promise to our WoL, that's all. There is not a single Cutscene where the WoL made a promise. The same happens with Graha he says always we made a promise / he made a promise to us to visit Ishgard together.
I can't find any Cutscene where our WoL made any promise to him or where he made a promise to us. It is kinda irritating. It is like we read a Book and Page 151 is missing.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

We never made a promise to Venat. She made a promise to our WoL, that's all. There is not a single Cutscene where the WoL made a promise. The same happens with Graha he says always we made a promise / he made a promise to us to visit Ishgard together.
I can't find any Cutscene where our WoL made any promise to him or where he made a promise to us. It is kinda irritating. It is like we read a Book and Page 151 is missing.

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With Graha, just before he "dies" as the Exarch, he begs the WOL to take his younger self with them on adventures, because he wants to be part of their story. I don't remember exactly how the PC reacts, but it's implied from the scene and the WOL rushing off to give the Exarch's memories to Graha later that the WOL "agreed" to do so.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

We never made a promise to Venat. She made a promise to our WoL, that's all. There is not a single Cutscene where the WoL made a promise. The same happens with Graha he says always we made a promise / he made a promise to us to visit Ishgard together.
I can't find any Cutscene where our WoL made any promise to him or where he made a promise to us. It is kinda irritating. It is like we read a Book and Page 151 is missing.

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Right she’s referring to her promise to us, as she mentions in the quote you posted.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

With Graha, just before he "dies" as the Exarch, he begs the WOL to take his younger self with them on adventures, because he wants to be part of their story. I don't remember exactly how the PC reacts, but it's implied from the scene and the WOL rushing off to give the Exarch's memories to Graha later that the WOL "agreed" to do so.

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Whatever we said in the "past", where he had been the Exarch, that stays in the past, cause I hate Fanboy Graha so much. I wish we could just refuse to do any Adventure with some of the Scions we dislike.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

If only Venat had the same line of thinking as our FF13 protagonists. I guess thats why i just cant take Endwalker seriously. It kind of goes against past ff themes.

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Venat herself said "nothing is impossible" and then we got what we got...

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Venat herself said "nothing is impossible" and then we got what we got...

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“Nothing is impossible.” Meanwhile she thinks it’s impossible for her people to avert their eventual “demise” and she commits mass genocide without telling anyone and keeps it all a secret…Meanwhile Yoshi P “How do you guys like and trust Emet and not Hermes?” It’s just clownery all around i swear.

In hindsight, another thing I found...strange is how the Ancients in the post-Elpis cutscene make no direct mention of wanting to bring back those lost in summoning Zodiark; only returning things to the way they once were, which would entail much more then just bringing back the sacrificed.

I feel like they could've easily used that to make the Sundering seem more justified if they entertained the notion of there being a tangible risk that Zodiark would've given in to unrestrained desires to right all the wrongs of the Final Days with potentially disastrous consequences for the star given that he seemed to operate on an "equivalent exchange" principle and could not enact drastic change without sufficient sacrifice. With Elidibus having already separated himself, he was, as Fandaniel put it, "a being of pure instinct, wanting for guidance".

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

In hindsight, another thing I found...strange is how the Ancients in the post-Elpis cutscene make no direct mention of wanting to bring back those lost in summoning Zodiark; only returning things to the way they once were, which would entail much more then just bringing back the sacrificed.

I feel like they could've easily used that to make the Sundering seem more justified if they entertained the notion of there being a tangible risk that Zodiark would've given in to unrestrained desires to right all the wrongs of the Final Days with potentially disastrous consequences for the star given that he seemed to operate on an "equivalent exchange" principle and could not enact drastic change without sufficient sacrifice. With Elidibus having already separated himself, he was, as Fandaniel put it, "a being of pure instinct, wanting for guidance".

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Now that's an interesting thought. If summoning zodiark had a chance of causing something to go completely wrong, then that would definitely make the sundering seem almost like an act of saving the ancients from destroying themselves.

That is her logic at the end of the day, only framed in terms of 'mankind'. Nonetheless, in my view, even such an alternative approach still focuses too much on attempting to justify the erasure of their kind, when the Scions reject Emet-Selch's own approach in doing so. Frankly, if they tried to justify it in that way, I'd probably be even less satisfied with what we got. IMO, the best way to deal with it would have been to simply have it be accidental/prompted by third party manipulation. The post-Elpis scene is weird, because besides being stylised/a flash forward, also seems to be referring to the second stage, given the state of the skies and the fact that it appeared by all indications that they were sacrificing themselves. That stage also happens to be the one that corrected the star to a functioning state.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Now that's an interesting thought. If summoning zodiark had a chance of causing something to go completely wrong, then that would definitely make the sundering seem almost like an act of saving the ancients from destroying themselves.

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I think they (the writers) had tunnel vision on adding "grey" morality to the original Ancients, in order to contrast what Emet-Selch told us in SHB. Because graying the morality of Hydaelyn and Zodiark worked extremely well to SHB's benefit, so they figured they'd do it again. No, see, the Ancients weren't actually so benevolent that they sacrificed themselves so half their number can live...they just had twisted views about death. Zodiark's summoning wasn't JUST an attempt to save their star, but also an attempt to reclaim the "paradise" they thought they deserved. Just like in SHB, we were supposed to see this as a "no one is right -- every sun has its shadow" theme of moral relativism.

The problem, however, was that in SHB the "true villain" of the entire piece was a nebulous natural disaster. The Final Days at that point could have been a tornado or an earthquake, or space radiation, which makes the gray morality work because it was simply a force beyond control. But EW then not only gave the disaster a name and a face, it then upped the ante by attaching it to mankind's final boss: oblivion. And by doing that, they undid the attempt to create moral gray; because, by definition, anything that fights oblivion is objectively good. There's no other way around it because if oblivion wins, the story is over. The Ancients, unlike Emet Selch, weren't simply "wrong from our protagonist's POV" -- as far as the narrative is concerned, they're just flat out wrong. And, by extension, Venat is narratively right. What she did may not have been pretty or fair, but as far as the story's concerned, it was objectively the correct thing.

This explains why a lot of people liked EW's story up until Elpis. That story thread was the exact moment that any sense of moral gray or relativism was thrown out of the window. After Elpis, you either agree with Venat and the Scions and take the plot's lesson as it was intended...or you disagree with them and the plot starts to make little sense the more you scrutinize it.

I posted a personal headcanon on the lore forum that, without Hydaelyn, the sundering will eventually correct itself. Much to my surprise, there's evidence to support this?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Hydaelyn Sundered the world and Zodiark altered the aethercurrents...since Zodiark being gone currently has the Aethercurrents repairing themselves back into their original state (as shown by the FSH Studium questline), then Hydaelyn being gone means there's nothing keeping the shards separated anymore, they're going to combine.

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This is potentially promising and probably the most hopeful I've been since the end of EW. Short of an AU, I love the idea that everything will 'right' itself eventually. I might even be able to find some forgiveness in my heart if this whole sundering mess turns out to be a blip in the history of Etheirys.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I posted a personal headcanon on the lore forum that, without Hydaelyn, the sundering will eventually correct itself. Much to my surprise, there's evidence to support this?



This is potentially promising and probably the most hopeful I've been since the end of EW. Short of an AU, I love the idea that everything will 'right' itself eventually. I might even be able to find some forgiveness in my heart if this whole sundering mess turns out to be a blip in the history of Etheirys.

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I doubt this because Emet-Selch challenged the player character with exploring the other reflections and seeing the civilizations there which "may surprise [us]". Thinking of this from an IRL standpoint, merging the reflections back would drastically hinder the amount of content they could create and sell to their customers.

For that reason, while it's certainly not impossible, (especially if we get another ARR-style reboot), I don't see it as probable.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I posted a personal headcanon on the lore forum that, without Hydaelyn, the sundering will eventually correct itself. Much to my surprise, there's evidence to support this?



This is potentially promising and probably the most hopeful I've been since the end of EW. Short of an AU, I love the idea that everything will 'right' itself eventually. I might even be able to find some forgiveness in my heart if this whole sundering mess turns out to be a blip in the history of Etheirys.

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Hmmm I've not done those. I might go read up the lore on them later since I'm stuck at low levels on FSH and that isn't apt to change soon. :p Oda has referred to the state of the shards as unstable in the past - I wonder if this is what he means (and also in part what Lahabrea was getting at in the Praetorium), along with the fact that they'd perish without the Source. Still, I could see that rectification becoming something to 'stop', sadly. Unless it were to take place over a long time frame...

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I doubt this because Emet-Selch challenged the player character with exploring the other reflections and seeing the civilizations there which "may surprise [us]". Thinking of this from an IRL standpoint, merging the reflections back would drastically hinder the amount of content they could create and sell to their customers.

For that reason, while it's certainly not impossible, (especially if we get another ARR-style reboot), I don't see it as probable.

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Yes, had they not destroyed a number of stars in pushing the plotline they did, that may have been less of an issue. Now they've pretty much just got the reflections and maybe more distant stars.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Hmmm I've not done those. I might go read up the lore on them later since I'm stuck at low levels on FSH and that isn't apt to change soon. :p Oda has referred to the state of the shards as unstable in the past - I wonder if this is what he means (and also in part what Lahabrea was getting at in the Praetorium.) Still, I could see that rectification becoming something to 'stop', sadly. Unless it were to take place over a long time frame...

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Yes, in the FSH studium quests we help a catboy with his thesis and while doing so find out large amounts of fish and other sea life were washed up/lost due to their senses being disoriented from the huge influx of aether. We then casually drop by into the past to wave to all the people who will soon die in a terrible fiery disaster that we can't and won't do anything about, then fish up something to compare. Catboy then comes to the conclusion that aether levels are going back to the way they were before Zodiark. Of course, I don't recall them mentioning the shards...

That said, we can only hope they do eventually collapse back into the Source. Better work on that shardhopping so we can evacuate those inhabitants, eh, Shtola?

I haven't done the Studium quests, but before you can claim that statement as proof of an eventual natural rejoining, it's important to define the "original state" that the currents are supposedly returning to. Are they talking about the pre-sundered state or simply the state immediately before both the pseudo-gods who have been stabilising the currents for millennia dissipated into the aether?

Also, if the aether currents are unique to each shard, then their state wouldn't directly have anything to do with them rejoining or remaining apart.

Narratively I think a natural rejoining would be very unlikely after they've staked so much on the value of the individual souls of each shard and that it would be a tragedy to lose them.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Thinking of this from an IRL standpoint, merging the reflections back would drastically hinder the amount of content they could create and sell to their customers.

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I doubt we're going to visit every reflection, especially since they'd need to come up with reasons as to why we'd be limited to small areas of them. It worked for the First because 9/10 of it had been consumed by the Flood, all that was left was Norvrandt. We still have at least 2-3 continents on the Source we haven't explored too.

I also doubt a full rejoining would happen within the WoL's lifespan either, so it's likely a moot point. I suspect we're going to be spending at least one expansion dealing with the 13th in some capacity. I'd be surprised if by the time FFXIV reaches 20 years of age that they don't already have a new MMO in the works if they decide to make another one. Does FFXI still get expansion-like content updates?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I doubt we're going to visit every reflection, especially since they'd need to come up with reasons as to why we'd be limited to small areas of them. It worked for the First because 9/10 of it had been consumed by the Flood, all that was left was Norvrandt. We still have at least 2-3 continents on the Source we haven't explored too.

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That last sentence is why I can't see them needing any more reason than "The world is, like, really big, man."

The Source alone got away with being the sole setting from Expansions 1.0 - 4.0, being limited specifically to Eorzea for the first three of those, and even as of 6.0, we still haven't explored all of it.

The other reflections could provide content for dozens of future expansion. They have no reason to rush.

If narratives aren't applied consistently across the board, then I don't consider them to have much in the way of weight or relevance. Especially when the writers themselves frequently backtrack in interviews and insist that players should come to their own conclusions and come up with their own head canon.

As a role-player, it has long been a frustration of mine that the game doesn't have any real consistent elements in play. In many ways, I see the same trajectory that World of Warcraft decided to go down with large swathes of established lore being sacrificed in the name of whatever the writing team decided was 'really cool' at the time.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I doubt we're going to visit every reflection, especially since they'd need to come up with reasons as to why we'd be limited to small areas of them. It worked for the First because 9/10 of it had been consumed by the Flood, all that was left was Norvrandt. We still have at least 2-3 continents on the Source we haven't explored too.

I also doubt a full rejoining would happen within the WoL's lifespan either, so it's likely a moot point. I suspect we're going to be spending at least one expansion dealing with the 13th in some capacity. I'd be surprised if by the time FFXIV reaches 20 years of age that they don't already have a new MMO in the works if they decide to make another one. Does FFXI still get expansion-like content updates?

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I think the Thirteenth is the only shard worth visiting at this point. They could contrive a similar reason why we can only visit parts of it. The Void been part of the lore for far longer than any other shard. It would serve as a good balance to the First. I would feel happy and I think the world would feel reasonably complete if we went there and didn't bother to visit the other remaining shards.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If narratives aren't applied consistently across the board, then I don't consider them to have much in the way of weight or relevance. Especially when the writers themselves frequently backtrack in interviews and insist that players should come to their own conclusions and come up with their own head canon.

As a role-player, it has long been a frustration of mine that the game doesn't have any real consistent elements in play. In many ways, I see the same trajectory that World of Warcraft decided to go down with large swathes of established lore being sacrificed in the name of whatever the writing team decided was 'really cool' at the time.

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Yeah. I think it's a symptom of long-running, high budget franchises. Saw the same thing happen with older FF games (especially XIII and the VII Compilation) and Kingdom Hearts.

Eventually, the writers stop going for "a theme" and start shooting for "ALL the themes". Why make players contemplate one emotion when you can try to make them feel all of them all at once?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think the Thirteenth is the only shard worth visiting at this point. They could contrive a similar reason why we can only visit parts of it. The Void been part of the lore for far longer than any other shard. It would serve as a good balance to the First. I would feel happy and I think the world would feel reasonably complete if we went there and didn't bother to visit the other remaining shards.

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We have actually been to the Thirteenth, though.

That's what the World of Darkness raid is. Maybe there is more of it to see, but we've definitely seen part of it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Still, I could see that rectification becoming something to 'stop', sadly. Unless it were to take place over a long time frame...

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Unfortunately. Although, the only reason it was 'necessary' to be able to interact with dynamis was because of Meteion who's no longer a threat. However, I wouldn't put it past them to write Venat as having known this. Given her concern for the shards appears to be little more than collateral damage, it could hint that she knew the sundering would be temporary.

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Yes, had they not destroyed a number of stars in pushing the plotline they did, that may have been less of an issue. Now they've pretty much just got the reflections and maybe more distant stars.

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I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. I'm not keen on visiting other planets that have nothing to do with Etheirys. It was different in WoW where Outland was integral to the history of Azeroth, but the only places I know of in FFXIV where that might be true would be the dragon star and possibly Omega, both of which were used in EW.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Narratively I think a natural rejoining would be very unlikely after they've staked so much on the value of the individual souls of each shard and that it would be a tragedy to lose them.

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It depends on how it's written. More personal headcanon, but I like the idea that the aetherial sea between the Source and the shards is re-connected, so those who die on the shards end up funneled back to their original souls. Eventually, this leads to everyone being whole again and reborn on the Source.

I suppose I should've clarified I see this as a long process, not a sudden boom all 4-5 shards collide into the Source causing the calamity to end all calamities. The Ascians may have found a MO that worked through polarization necessary to break through the barrier, but without that being the case now it might just be a slow trickle of aether from each one back to the Source that takes ages to even be noticeable. Probably starting with things like reduced magical ability and eventually lifespans. Once everyone's funneled back to the Source, by the time the shard fully rejoins there likely wouldn't have been anyone living on it for years due to the decreased aether. All just speculation though. :P

From what I recall from the FSH quests it's not that the aether currents are "correcting themselves to a previous state", it was that the aether released with Zodiark's death caused a surge of aether in the currents and affected the fishes. And we need to give him a pre-Zodiark fish to compare the differences in aether levels.

But I may be wrong, it's been a while.

Speaking of the Studium quests, I think my favorite story in this entire expansion (MSQ included) has to be about making bread.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

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IMO, I don't think the writers were anywhere near the level of elaboration as you make it out to be. We can speculate about whether the writers truly sought to address things like morality, paradise, despair, etc., but to me, having all the events play out as they did despite the WoL traveling back in time and revealing the future to the ancients feels like the writers were just going through the motions and trying to complete the story without spending too much extra time on it. If the sundering didn't happen or the circumstances surrounding the sundering were changed somehow, the writers would have to deal with an altered timeline or a multi-verse timeline like MCU, and it would be significantly more work. To be completely honest, the fact that we have to speculate about different characters' intentions and the story on an internet forum is further testament that the writers did a poor job at explaining things. We're seeking to fill the story in with our own thoughts and ideas because the writers failed to do so.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

IMO, I don't think the writers were anywhere near the level of elaboration as you make it out to be. We can speculate about whether the writers truly sought to address things like morality, paradise, despair, etc., but to me, having all the events play out as they did despite the WoL traveling back in time and revealing the future to the ancients feels like the writers were just going through the motions and trying to complete the story without spending too much extra time on it. If the sundering didn't happen or the circumstances surrounding the sundering were changed somehow, the writers would have to deal with an altered timeline or a multi-verse timeline like MCU, and it would be significantly more work. To be completely honest, the fact that we have to speculate about different characters' intentions and the story on an internet forum is further testament that the writers did a poor job at explaining things. We're seeking to fill the story in with our own thoughts and ideas because the writers failed to do so.

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I don't really think I said anything elaborate. There was a definite, deliberate effort to make the Ancients more morally-grey. That's obvious the instant you reach Elpis, and the Ancients start calling you "it" and telling you to kill butterflies to make new clothes. I recall at the time thinking it was weird that Hythlodeus claims the WOL was "shocked" by how coldly they transformed the butterflies into clothes. I didn't understand why the hell the WOL would even care, given the number of "Go kill X creatures and bring back Y parts" fetch quests we commonly get sent on. It started to make "sense" when the rest of the Elpis story thread started highlighting how nonchalant the Ancients were to death; especially that of constructs. It even became the central axis of Hermes' motivation, and thus the impetus of the entire FFXIV saga. It's pretty clear that casting a new, morally-grey light on the Ancients was a deliberate focus of the writers.

Like I said, they just did it in such a heavy-handed way that they turned around to actually making them morally "dark". We are clearly meant to see them as flat out wrong, and this is only furthered by the fact that Deka-hepta was stated by the devs to be where Eitheirys was headed before the Sundering.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I don't really think I said anything elaborate. There was a definite, deliberate effort to make the Ancients more morally-grey. That's obvious the instant you reach Elpis, and the Ancients start calling you "it" and telling you to kill butterflies to make new clothes.

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Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing. :confused:

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

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Sure, it could've been an effort to paint the ancients as morally grey. But from my perspective, I thought that the game director's intention was to really drive home the point that Elpis and its occupants are scientists that experiment with living organisms, and not necessarily to portray the entire ancients civilization as morally grey.


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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I don't really think I said anything elaborate.

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It's probably not elaborate for you, but for the writing team that worked on EW? Yeah, it just might be.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Sure, it could've been an effort to paint the ancients as morally grey. But from my perspective, I thought that the game director's intention was to really drive home the point that Elpis and its occupants are scientists that experiment with living organisms, and not necessarily to portray the entire ancients civilization as morally grey.

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There's no "could have" here. We are flat out told several times that the society of the Ancients was not the paradise they thought it was. Hermes has an existential breakdown wondering why he's the only one who sees the flaws while he demonstrably shows that his comrades are way too quick to give up on living beings. We're treated to a major cutscene when Venat tries to convince her fellow Ancients that they can't ignore suffering, only for them to disregard her, and force her to sunder the world so that mankind can know suffering and overcome it.

And, as I mentioned, we have the devs outright telling us that one of the doomed planets we saw was exactly where the Ancients were heading if they ever achieved the "perfection" they craved.

If you see all this and think "well, I don't see how they were intentionally painting them as morally-grey", then I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

It's probably not elaborate for you, but for the writing team that worked on EW? Yeah, it just might be.

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This is high-school-book-report levels of theming. It's not elaborate. Hell, the one guy who wrote Attack on Titan created an entire narrative expressing themes of defeat, isolation and kyriarchy. Endwalker was written by a team of writers, who had two full versions and four expansions to draw material from, not to mention other games in a billion-dollar franchise.

It's not that elaborate.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I recall at the time thinking it was weird that Hythlodeus claims the WOL was "shocked" by how coldly they transformed the butterflies into clothes.

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This was so strange to me as well, I remember thinking "...OK? Thanks for the robe, man!" It was so awkward that this was clearly meant to be a moment where the writers assumed I'd be horrifically offended; but I wasn't at all, nor did I think that my character, who murders animals all of the time for FUN and PROFIT would be rattled in any way. She definitely would not be be judging others for it. I was also obviously supposed to be utterly offended at being called a "thing" but again, who the hell cares? To them I was a creature unlike any they had ever seen before. I look nothing like them or the humans they know, not even like any familiars they know, so there's no reason for them to see me as anything but an unusual entity. The attempts to move me to Twitter levels of outrage over the way the Ancients viewed life were clumsy as shit.

To me, it's morally grey if they expect us to suspend all critical thinking abilities and not look at how the sundered, or humans for that matter, kill lesser creatures for much less. I don't doubt that they were, to some extent, pushing this idea that they're not "perfect", although whatever the intention, even with all that in mind, the ancients are about as close as a species can come to it, IMO.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

This was so strange to me as well, I remember thinking "...OK? Thanks for the robe, man!" It was so awkward that this was clearly meant to be a moment where the writers assumed I'd be horrifically offended; but I wasn't at all, nor did I think that my character, who murders animals all of the time for FUN and PROFIT would be rattled in any way. She definitely would not be be judging others for it. I was also obviously supposed to be utterly offended at being called a "thing" but again, who the hell cares? To them I was a creature unlike any they had ever seen before. I look nothing like them or the humans they know, not even like any familiars they know, so there's no reason for them to see me as anything but an unusual entity. The attempts to move me to Twitter levels of outrage over the way the Ancients viewed life were clumsy as shit.

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I mean I was doing the sidequests on a reaper, with an avatar sidekick that devours the souls of beings for fuel, and did the main quests with a relic weapon forged from crystallised misery, having routinely partaken in the outdoors slaughterfests known as fates. At this point, if they're expecting me to take the character's "shock" seriously, it just paints them as delusional.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

There's no "could have" or "or" here. We are flat out told several times that the society of the Ancients was not the paradise they thought it was. Hermes has an existential breakdown wondering why he's the only one who sees the flaws while he demonstrably shows that his comrades are way too quick to give up on living beings. We're treated to a major cutscene when Venat tries to convince her fellow Ancients that they can't ignore suffering, only for them to disregard her, and foce her to sunder the world so that mankind can know suffering and overcome it.

And, as I mentioned, we have the devs outright telling us that one of the doomed planets we saw was exactly where the Ancients were heading if they ever achieved the "perfection" they craved.

If you see all this and think "well, I don't see how they were intentionally painting them as morally-grey", then I don't know what to tell you.

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Yeah, I still don't really see it. Remember we've only actually interacted with a few ancients, and ones that worked as scientists. That's a very small sample size. The ancients are an entire civilization and we've only seen a very small fraction of them.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

This is high-school-book-report levels of theming.

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What, like the endwalker story?

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing. :confused:

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In narrative, calling a breathing, thinking person an "it" is typically a denial of personhood. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...IsDehumanizing This, combined with the fact that the story specifically calls out several times how most Ancients disregard the lives of concepts and familiars demonstrates that their disregard of species other than their own wasn't unique to the future Ascians. Ancient society thought that way from the start.

And as I said, I'm not the person who pointed out the Ancients turning butterflies into clothes. You are specifically told the WOL was shocked by it, and Hytholodeus has to explain to your PC why it's okay because they don't really consider concepts living things. If the story had never brought it up, I wouldn't have cared. But they specifically brought it up to demonstrate how the Ancients think.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Yeah, I still don't really see it. Remember we've only actually interacted with a few ancients, and ones that worked as scientists. That's a very small sample size. The ancients are an entire civilization and we've only seen a very small fraction of them.

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Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

What, like the endwalker story?

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I mean...yes?

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Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Morrally-grey to whom? Twitter people? As if nobody ever called an animal an it, or wore leather clothing. :confused:

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Unfortunately Twitter is apparently the crowd that the development team is seeking to cater to primarily these days.

Incidentally, social media has become a den of depravity in recent years and is now host to people openly calling for the deaths and imprisonment of anyone who dares to to think or act differently to themselves.

Which makes the development team's decision all the more baffling, really. They can't be oblivious to the way in which the last two years have played out and as such a story involving wiping out an entire species based on Venat's delusions just felt like a very large faux pas. Especially when it is largely the social media regulars who are cheering on Endwalker as the most amazing story to date.

That is because for the MSQ, and even during the sidequests, the MC is pretending to be a familiar, which generally would be arcane constructs devoid of a soul, and with rather limited cognitive capabilities compared to an ancient; a bit like comparing a chimpanzee, with its rudimentary reasoning faculties, to us... Any assessment of one possessing a soul is said to be a complex matter, no less because familiars can be woven with their creator's aether. It is only through further interactions that some of the ancients begin to question whether you're really a familiar, indicating that you're behaving in ways more complex than they're generally capable of... Emet-Selch eventually is suggested to have come to see the sundered as child-like beings. I'm not sure what people expect for a race with all the faculties of the ancients to think of much shorter lived, ephemeral beings.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Unfortunately Twitter is apparently the crowd that the development team is seeking to cater to primarily these days.

Incidentally, social media has become a den of depravity in recent years and is now host to people openly calling for the deaths and imprisonment of anyone who dares to to think or act differently to themselves.

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If you guys think that public outrage is unique to, or even that bad on, Twitter, then let me tell y'all about the Red Scare, the War on Drugs and the Cult of Domesticity.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I mean I was doing the sidequests on a reaper, with an avatar sidekick that devours the souls of beings for fuel, and did the main quests with a relic weapon forged from crystallised misery, having routinely partaken in the outdoors slaughterfests known as fates. At this point, if they're expecting me to take the character's "shock" seriously, it just paints them as delusional.

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Right? "Pardon me, my good fellows, I must take my leave as apparently there is an S-Rank beast in this zone that needs to be attacked and murdered for no real reason AND I'd like to get the orchestration roll for Elpis so I'll need to follow that up with the mass slaughter of every animal that I find within these pink spots on my map. You guys are so cruel to arcane entities though, btw, do better. Cheerio!"

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.



I mean...yes?

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Hermes himself was flawed, as he thinks hes the only one with these feelings yet if he literally walked out of his huge doors and talked to people he would realize other people share his sentiments. As for the whole Venat scene....She confronted them after the final days had already hit, when she had the knowledge to potentially avert it altogether. She tries to preach to them that they need to learn suffering yet we know via side quests that the ancients did suffer countless times,including the final days itself.They didnt force her to sunder the world, she did that of her own free will, for not believing in her own people and not practicing what she preached about nothing is impossible and to not give up hope. Afaik, the devs didnt outright say the ancients were heading for the end that the dead ends people were, just that thats what Venat thinks and they were "probably" heading that way.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Right? "Pardon me, my good fellows, I must take my leave as apparently there is an S-Rank beast in this zone that needs to be attacked and murdered for no real reason AND I'd like to get the orchestration roll for Elpis so I'll need to follow that up with the mass slaughter of every animal that I find within these pink spots on my map. You guys are so cruel to arcane entities though, btw, do better. Cheerio!"

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And do be sure to pay no mind to the egi that may or may not die in the process. :p

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Hermes specifically says that their entire society is like this. He felt this way long before he came to Elpis, furthermore, neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodeus are scientists. Nor are the guys who want to sacrifice the non-Ancient lifeforms to Zodiark.

We are outright shown that being a scientist has nothing to do with this mentality.

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I mean, sure, it's definitely a possibility. How's Hermes to know that information though? That dude is just another scientist. Emet and Hythlodaeus are already familiar with Elpis so it's not too hard to imagine that they became desensitized to these sort of things. Are the guys sacrificing non-Ancient lifeforms truly morally gray though? I'd do the same if it meant saving the entire civilization.