What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Yeah, variety is the spice of life and it'd be neat to see more masculine men front and centre. Who are classically handsome or ruggedly handsome rather than androgynous or feminine. Who aren't afraid to knock back a few flagons of ale at a tavern in between missions, swear like a sailor or tell the occasional joke.

Yet unfortunately FFXIV is becoming a very different beast to the game I fell in love with. It's as if it's striving to be as inoffensive as possible on many fronts. The game's 'humour' now consists of G'raha Tia's ears wriggling as stars appear in his eyes and he gushes in excitement over meeting Estinien. Or Hildibrand falling over again in the same wacky position he's found himself in at least a dozen times already.

It's a far cry from the style of the beloved JRPG's I played growing up. Ah, well. At least FFVIIR didn't completely gut itself on such fronts in the name of appeasing 'modern audiences'.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Alisae is a child. Not an adult. I am not interested in a child having a crush on my character. There are no adult women in this game who behave the way Alisae or G'raha do. Zenos was insufferable from start to finish. Never make another villain like that.

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Alisaie is a fictional character, in a fictional universe. I can't recall a single NPC in the game refer to Alisaie and Aphinaud as children except in the context of when being referred to as the offspring of their parents, or it is very sporadic. Them being children also has not excluded them on being at the forefront of the chaos and destruction they oppose either. Even if technically children in the world of FFXIV, these events would rob them of their childhood and force them into adult situations and decisions; hence making them grow up at a much faster rate from a maturity standpoint. IOW, don't be surprised if either of them could develop romantic feelings for the WoL, or anyone else for that matter. I would suggest keeping the pedo adversity at bay in order to keep things in the context of FFXIV.

As for older female NPCs fawning over the WoL. No there really isn't outside of headcanon, but I see it as it is just how the chips have fell rather than deliberately avoiding it. That doesn't mean that it's not in the cards, but I also don't see much difference in shoehorning an NPC to adore or hate the WoL, male or female, if you feel they are being forced on you. Also, Zenos is subjective. Not everyone despises him as you do.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Alisaie is a fictional character, in a fictional universe. I can't recall a single NPC in the game refer to Alisaie and Aphinaud as children except in the context of when being referred to as the offspring of their parents, or it is very sporadic. Them being children also has not excluded them on being at the forefront of the chaos and destruction they oppose either. Even if technically children in the world of FFXIV, these events would rob them of their childhood and force them into adult situations and decisions; hence making them grow up at a much faster rate from a maturity standpoint. IOW, don't be surprised if either of them could develop romantic feelings for the WoL, or anyone else for that matter. I would suggest keeping the pedo adversity at bay in order to keep things in the context of FFXIV.

As for older female NPCs fawning over the WoL. No there really isn't outside of headcanon, but I see it as it is just how the chips have fell rather than deliberately avoiding it. That doesn't mean that it's not in the cards, but I also don't see much difference in shoehorning an NPC to adore or hate the WoL, male or female, if you feel they are being forced on you. Also, Zenos is subjective. Not everyone despises him as you do.

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They are, for all intents and purposes, children. Theyre what, 16? 17? Not even 18. Personally i feel uncomfortable to have anyone fawning over me who i dislike and not having the option to tell them to keep their distance, but its especially worse when its an underage child. It does weird me out though that the devs refer to both of them as husbando/waifu, and then theres the whole problem with Shiva Ryne but thats a whole other can of worms entirely.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As much as I dislike Zenos, his obsession can at least be seen as entirely one sided. Most games have the good grace to allow players to consent to whether a particular character fawns over their chosen hero. As another poster pointed out, Alisae is underage and although G'raha is an adult he acts like a child at times. It's incredibly off-putting for a lot of reasons - especially when player characters have the ability to perform an eternal bonding with another player character.

It's effectively marriage, so if a character is eternally bonded...why are some of the Scions treating my character as if that isn't the case? Why are they actively trying to be homewreckers? Why is there no option to tell Alisae that my character is into men and let her down gently rather than unintentionally stringing her along?

Furthermore, Yoshi-P has already referred to Alisae and Alphinaud as the 'waifu' and 'husbandu' of some players which...is pretty questionable in itself for obvious reasons.

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An obsession is always one-sided. It kind of goes with the territory in that regard. Zenos and his obsession doesn't change that he is forced onto the WoL whether they want it or not. There isn't anything written in stone that you have to accept characters who are smitten like G'raha and Haurchefant. Their feelings can very much be one-sided as well.

I already addressed Alisaie's age in my last post, but in addition I also know and understand that a lot of the Japanese culture is questionable to westerners. Especially in terms of what is considered acceptable when it comes to age gaps, and adult/teen relationships. That doesn't mean I condone it, but I don't believe they are conditioned the way we are. Especially someone like Yoshi who very likely is one or two generations older than most of the people playing this game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They are, for all intents and purposes, children. Theyre what, 16? 17? Not even 18. Personally i feel uncomfortable to have anyone fawning over me who i dislike and not having the option to tell them to keep their distance, but its especially worse when its an underage child. It does weird me out though that the devs refer to both of them as husbando/waifu, and then theres the whole problem with Shiva Ryne but thats a whole other can of worms entirely.

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16, 17, 18 means nothing. You're talking like our prohibitions and laws apply in this world. They don't unless specified that they do. Otherwise they are arbitrary at best. It's fine if it makes you uncomfortable, and it is understandable if it does. But they are fictional characters dude, and makes zero sense to me how people are ok with children risking their lives in battles where the odds are against them, but all of sudden cringe at the knees because a young NPC has an innocent crush on your character. Do you not see how backwards this is?

Ryne isn't much different. She's a teenager, and could easily develop a crush on the WoL, Gaia, or one of the other Scions or adult males/females on the first. The line gets crossed when it is an adult that has desires or pursues a younger NPC. However, teenagers developing crushes on adults is totally friggin normal bud, and happens all the time. I know we live in clown world now, but that is the actual reality.

The manner in which you decided to continue engaging in this discussion is uncomfortable, to say the least, and no further good is likely to come of pursuing the topic further. I do not consider your defense of the situation in your previous posts appropriate in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

16, 17, 18 means nothing. You're talking like our prohibitions and laws apply in this world. They don't unless specified that they do. Otherwise they are arbitrary at best. It's fine if it makes you uncomfortable, and it is understandable if it does. But they are fictional characters dude, and makes zero sense to me how people are ok with children risking their lives in battles where the odds are against them, but all of sudden cringe at the knees because a young NPC has an innocent crush on your character. Do you not see how backwards this is?

Ryne isn't much different. She's a teenager, and could easily develop a crush on the WoL, Gaia, or one of the other Scions or adult males/females on the first. The line gets crossed when it is an adult that has desires or pursues a younger NPC. However, teenagers developing crushes on adults is totally friggin normal bud, and happens all the time. I know we live in clown world now, but that is the actual reality.

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My point about Ryne was the fact she’s a 15 year old girl and they have her stripping as a mechanic….

In regards to the twins,to each their own, but it being fictional doesn’t make it any better imo. The amount of people i have seen on these forums lust over the twins is…an alarming amount. Also my problem is moreso the fact i don’t have an option to tell whoever it is crushing on me to knock it off. Unwanted advances aren’t cute, they aren’t funny, and i’d really rather have the choice to say no in these instances. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Alisaie or Graha, it’s gross either way to me.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The manner in which you decided to continue engaging in this discussion is uncomfortable, to say the least, and no further good is likely to come of pursuing the topic further. I do not consider your defense of the situation in your previous posts appropriate in the slightest.

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That's a you problem. And what defense are you referring to? A defense would imply that my views have been challenged. They have not, and I instead find myself having to provide tutelage on what is common sense, and simple fact due to poor conditioning leading to over sensitivity and reaction where it isn't even necessitated. I will agree that not much more good is to come of the discussion, but very likely not for the same reasons that you do. I can leave this conversation with my morality in check, I assure you. It is really easy for me to discern fantasy from reality, but I am not so sure the same holds true for yourself.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

My point about Ryne was the fact she’s a 15 year old girl and they have her stripping as a mechanic….

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Understandable, and I get it. What I am telling you is Ryne does not exist. She is not a real girl. That's not to say that just because it is a fantasy realm, all bets are off. But I hope you get the point here.

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In regards to the twins,to each their own, but it being fictional doesn’t make it any better imo. The amount of people i have seen on these forums lust over the twins is…an alarming amount. Also my problem is moreso the fact i don’t have an option to tell whoever it is crushing on me to knock it off. Unwanted advances aren’t cute, they aren’t funny, and i’d really rather have the choice to say no in these instances. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Alisaie or Graha, it’s gross either way to me.

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I've been here awhile, and have not seen anyone lust over the Twins. Not saying it doesn't happen, but this isn't the angle your previous statements were coming from. I was under the impression that the issue is Alisaie could have a thing for the WoL. I am also not sure why you are so adverse. Alisaie in particular has done nothing to advance towards the WoL. The very mention of her admiration around you turns her more red than a crimson sunset, and there is nothing for you to turn away.

With G'raha I am honestly over here thinking, "How could you not adore him?" I'm sure he is not everyone's cup of tea, but he's a Samaritan who puts everyone's needs before his own. To a fault even, and has to be told, "I just need groceries. Your life not is required G'raha!" This is where I have a BIG problem, see? Anyone and everyone who does not want to hug and squeeze the life out of G'raha clearly does not have their head on straight.

... I kid, but yeah. G'raha is cool.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

What's wrong with having a bit of colonial era fantasy? Given the age of exploration seems to be when 14 is set.

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Fantasy landscapes such as mountain ranges that look like "swords" that are actually giant thorns and brambles, erected by witches or shamans as defensive barriers. Briarpatch moats surrounding log cabin forts. Beastmasters raising small armies of beasts on ranches to be used as expendable cannon fodder in battle. Bandits/smugglers/rebels hiding out in marshes or the woods. Snowy deserts and canyons. Mythical creatures like the Hodag. Beastmen such as grizzly bearmen or gatormen or eaglemen.

https://i.imgur.com/GGqz7WX.jpg

States that skirmish with each other for control over great lakes and rivers. Riverboats, paddleboats, steamboats, and maybe ironclads. Flintlock weapons that use magical powders. Commodities trading in beer, lumber, textiles, and tobacco. Plantations that grow a magical crop that is used by alchemists to create medicine or magical powders. Smuggling. Multiple currencies being used because the region is poor in metal, including receipts for stockpiles of tobacco stored in warehouses (aka proto-dollars).

Hammered dulcimers and fiddles and flutes could be used for the soundtrack.

So much potential. Could be great!

My issue isn't so much other characters fawning over mine as it is mine fawning over them. This is my problem with Haurchefant. I wasn't attached to his character at all, in fact, I think his model is ugly, I didn't like his VA, and since we got the 'sanitized western' version of him I thought he came across as a generic NPC for the most part. I didn't cry at his death either, it was Edmont's reaction that got me. However, my WoL was crushed, displaying a level of sorrow that I've yet to see on my character's face since. Matter of fact, I have cried my heart out at Emet multiple times and my WoL only ever looks mildly disappointed (and that's when they're not displaying anger or skepticism). Meanwhile, I've had I think at least 3 different cutscenes at Haurchefant's grave, I have his emote*, I am incessantly plagued with flashbacks of him because they insist on milking his death for all its worth and this adds to the feeling that my WoL is still utterly broken over him. It honestly felt like my WoL had something going on with him on the side and it's kind of gross.

* Noting that the "snap" emote isn't marketed as being associated with Emet and you have to purchase it from the cash shop.

As far as the women, the only one who was uncomfortable was Lyse in the 'sparring' scene in slow motion, with a sunset in the background, where it looked like our characters were coming in for a kiss. Alisaie's 'crush' hasn't felt intrusive yet. However, I very much view her as a minor and with Yoshi-P stating that they have no intention of aging their models it's going to be awkward. Going by the game's life she may end up being 26 years old and still have the body of a 16 year old.

G'raha is an interesting case. I don't find his model necessarily attractive, but his VA is excellent and has made his character endearing. I understand why people don't like G'raha, but I haven't noticed my character going nuts over him though I am biased because I like him. Sometimes I miss the more subdued affection he had as the Crystal Exarch, but it was always there. He's just more overt about his hero worship now, which is somewhat disappointing because I get the feeling for at least half of the Scions they wouldn't have anything to do with my character if I weren't a 'hero'.

A bit off topic, but Estinien is probably the only one I consider a true brother-in-arms with whom I bonded over being the Azure Dragoon and participant in the Dragonsong War not because I'm the Warrior of Light. The main reason Thancred has been a long time favorite is because initially he didn't care either, he was distressed in ARR that he couldn't be there to protect me from Ifrit. Every other Scion was like, "How can we use her? Let us count the ways!" Alphinaud and Minfilia in particular were candid about the fact that we were a weapon in their arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

A proper rendition of Egypt could be interesting, because what we've seen so far is limited to a couple of dungeons.

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I completely forgot to mention Uldum because, unfortunately, it is forgettable. Beautiful zone, ruined by it being turned into a poorly done Indiana Jones parody. I also posted that image of Tarna from QFG3 forgetting that the Tol'vir are basically copies of their liontaurs. :P

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Understandable, and I get it. What I am telling you is Ryne does not exist. She is not a real girl. That's not to say that just because it is a fantasy realm, all bets are off. But I hope you get the point here.


I've been here awhile, and have not seen anyone lust over the Twins. Not saying it doesn't happen, but this isn't the angle your previous statements were coming from. I was under the impression that the issue is Alisaie could have a thing for the WoL. I am also not sure why you are so adverse. Alisaie in particular has done nothing to advance towards the WoL. The very mention of her admiration around you turns her more red than a crimson sunset, and there is nothing for you to turn away.

With G'raha I am honestly over here thinking, "How could you not adore him?" I'm sure he is not everyone's cup of tea, but he's a Samaritan who puts everyone's needs before his own. To a fault even, and has to be told, "I just need groceries. Your life not is required G'raha!" This is where I have a BIG problem, see? Anyone and everyone who does not want to hug and squeeze the life out of G'raha clearly does not have their head on straight.

... I kid, but yeah. G'raha is cool.

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I just personally find the constant hero worship Graha does very jarring. It takes away from a lot of the serious moments in the story, like when hes fawning over us and estinien in shb just after we had learned about mass tempering towers. It was a horrible time for it. Him being a mary sue doesnt help either though, as its a trope i heavily despise.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

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A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:

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Originally Posted by avevond-dreams

I see no reason to deny your wishes but I also see no reason as to why they should take priority over the widespread appeal that G'raha Tia has. Perhaps his overwhelming presence in the game is because a lot of people are interested in seeing him.

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Do you see how the fallacy works, here? No one is particularly wrapped up in whether you as an individual continue paying your sub. The issue is when you proclaim your own interests align with the "widespread appeal," which should take priority. If we're speaking for SE, well, G'raha is the second most popular NPC in the series, and the opinion that he should be pulled back is a definite minority, so where does the "they should go with what sells and what appeals to me, the spokesperson for what has widespread appeal" start and end?

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

A slightly modified quote from earlier in the thread that seems relevant:



Do you see how the fallacy works, here?

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Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

But thank you for bringing up the subject of settings again, despite the conversation having largely moved on from that.

If SE decides to turn completely turn over the world to the twitter fandom who are willing to tolerate niche settings far removed from Garlemald and Ishgard along with their plushie characters, so be it. I just pray that they release FFXVI first so I have something else to do. Stranger of Paradise with Jack was great fun, hopefully Clive will provide a more fleshed out experience in his mainline title game.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Do you not understand that G'raha Tia is now becoming a detraction rather than a meaningful addition in peoples eyes and that a continued focus on characters like him while the elements that sold me on this game are resolved and removed will ultimately cause SE to fail in the goal of getting me to keep giving them money for this game?

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G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game, so I'm not sure who "people" are. If it's you and the people you know, cool! That's not going to be much of a marketing factor on its own compared to the thousands of people who voted for him in the polls and love him, though, if we want to truly take the angle of "marketing" and "sales" as our argumentative stance.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

G'raha Tia is the second most popular NPC in the game.

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Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Based on a survey of what I believe was no more than 6000 players out of Japan, which accounts for only 1 of the regions this game provides service to. In any case, he is of course largely beaten out by Emet-Selch, gee I wonder why.

Apparently Haurcefant was also quite popular on that survey if I remember correctly, despite him having contributed nothing to the story since Heavensward. People may have voted for G'raha Tia due to his role in Shadowbringers - back when many including I were fans of him - rather than his meaningless slice-of-life role in Endwalker.

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G'raha Tia was also the most popular Scion, and the most popular character who wasn't an Ancient, in both of the 2ch-based polls specifically asking "favorite Endwalker NPC" that people were citing before the Famitsu poll. This idea that people are secretly sick of him is extremely wishful thinking on your part. As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay. Good storytelling decisions don't have to be, and usually aren't, based around premises of "what sells" or "mass appeal."

Here comes the 50000 gil question.

Both Elidibus and Hydaelyn speak of a promise we made so long ago. Elidibus does not know to whom he made the promise and what it was. My WoL can't remember a promise either. Somehow I have the feeling that Elidibus and also Hydaelyn have promised Azem something.

Elidibus
What's it!? I have my mission!

Elidibus
I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to...to someone.

Elidibus
We spoke, and I swore...what? What did I...?

Hydaelyn
Though I knew failure after failure, by recalling thy tales---and my promise to thee---I found the strength to carry on.

Hydaelyn
Fulfill our promise. Right the wrongs committed when the world was yet whole. Silence the song of oblivion...


What have we promised ? I watched so many Cutscenes but there is no promise.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

When I talk about my problems with Venat and how she was portrayed, I can only hope I articulate my thoughts and observations well enough that it resonates with someone - ideally, with the team, even though it's a long shot, though it's still worthwhile even if it's with at least one other player. I'm not going to proclaim that the devs should change their approach to her because I'm pretty sure actually, tons of people dislike Venat, or whatever. That's demonstrably not true and also a sort of absurd argument if we're looking for any kind of quality storytelling decisions.

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I both like and dislike Venat. I thought she was a very cool and interesting character, and I loved her charisma.

But I dislike her pseudo-Buddhist "suffering fetishism". The entire Endwalker story, for example, struck me as a constant example of "Perfection Fallacy". We're flat out told that since no civilization can achieve perfection, then they should stop striving for it. The Ea became depressed about the fact that, despite eliminating every other problem on their star, they couldn't do anything about the heat death of the universe, which led to their inevitable demise.

The premise feels laughably juvenile. Real-life academics and skeptics have long accepted the relative meaninglessness and finite measure of life for centuries, and most of them haven't shriveled into a ball of nihilism. Yes, you can't live life without some measure of suffering, but not all suffering is equal, not all suffering has the same consequences, and not all suffering is necessary. My entire problem with Endwalker's plot (and thus Venat's characterization) is that they act like it is.

If nothing else, it's hilarious to me that Venat was written to be directly and indirectly responsible for pretty much every bad thing that ever happened in the story but the game just expects everybody to ignore that and instead blame the victims of various and entirely avoidable atrocities. It's a lot how when people are at their lowest point the last thing they typically want to hear is to be told to just get over it.

There's such a tonal whiplash with the way in which Garlemald is handled. I brought it up already, but I was dreading smug commentary from the Scions about how they had it coming. Instead, they were treated with dignity and respect. Which just makes it all the more jarring that the same mentality wasn't afforded to the Ancients. Even if we concede that the timeline could not be changed for fear of erasing the Sundered...there's really no reason for at least one or two of the Scions to be disgusted and have a crisis of faith.

Much in the same way as how FFX was made all the more interesting by Wakka's crisis of faith, whilst FFIX had Steiner's conflicting loyalty to Queen Brahne and FFVI had Celes accused of still remaining loyal to the Empire despite her defection.

Such setups allow for excellent drama and dynamics between characters. FFXIV has very little of that. The Scions all agree with each other on pretty much every subject.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

As it turns out, for better or worse, most people like characters who are affectionate to your WoL. This was almost certainly a factor for Emet, too - and it was a factor in why selling Venat to the audience took the route that it did. It is what it is. We're the minority. It's okay.

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Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

Is it not just human nature? Even in real life I'm going to be fond of people who treat me warmly. Why would I not love a character who refers to me as their "new old friend" or another who went behind the Convocation's back to create a memory crystal for my original incarnation that he carried with him for millennia? Conversely, despite Venat's fascination with the WoL in Elpis, I think people too easily forget that she deliberately inflicted harm upon Azem and under no circumstances will I ever believe Azem consented to being sundered.

I can understand being put off by the hero worship, like I said it makes you wonder if G'raha would like us if we weren't the WoL (although someone mentioned he liked us during the CT raids when he was unaware of our exploits). Unfortunately, I'll never understand Haurchefant not only due to being subjected to the western revision but because his archetype isn't one we're used to in the west that I've heard is popular in Japan.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If nothing else, it's hilarious to me that Venat was written to be directly and indirectly responsible for pretty much every bad thing that ever happened in the story but the game just expects everybody to ignore that and instead blame the victims of various and entirely avoidable atrocities. It's a lot how when people are at their lowest point the last thing they typically want to hear is to be told to just get over it.

There's such a tonal whiplash with the way in which Garlemald is handled. I brought it up already, but I was dreading smug commentary from the Scions about how they had it coming. Instead, they were treated with dignity and respect. Which just makes it all the more jarring that the same mentality wasn't afforded to the Ancients. Even if we concede that the timeline could not be changed for fear of erasing the Sundered...there's really no reason for at least one or two of the Scions to be disgusted and have a crisis of faith.

Much in the same way as how FFX was made all the more interesting by Wakka's crisis of faith, whilst FFIX had Steiner's conflicting loyalty to Queen Brahne and FFVI had Celes accused of still remaining loyal to the Empire despite her defection.

Such setups allow for excellent drama and dynamics between characters. FFXIV has very little of that. The Scions all agree with each other on pretty much every subject.

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It did feel like at least Y'shtola was veering in that direction (the twins' empathy with Emet-Selch was more visceral but did not seem to trigger the same scepticism that Y'shtola was evincing by 5.5), but then if anything in EW she was the one who just tossed aside her earlier scepticism to Venat.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I both like and dislike Venat. I thought she was a very cool and interesting character, and I loved her charisma.

But I dislike her pseudo-Buddhist "suffering fetishism". The entire Endwalker story, for example, struck me as a constant example of "Perfection Fallacy". We're flat out told that since no civilization can achieve perfection, then they should stop striving for it. The Ea became depressed about the fact that, despite eliminating every other problem on their star, they couldn't do anything about the heat death of the universe, which led to their inevitable demise.

The premise feels laughably juvenile. Real-life academics and skeptics have long accepted the relative meaninglessness and finite measure of life for centuries, and most of them haven't shriveled into a ball of nihilism. Yes, you can't live life without some measure of suffering, but not all suffering is equal, not all suffering has the same consequences, and not all suffering is necessary. My entire problem with Endwalker's plot (and thus Venat's characterization) is that they act like it is.

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Agreed, and I think it's all the more ridiculous, because the Scions still aspire to perfectionist ideals, i.e. to minimise suffering, which means that fate will eventually be a potential issue again. I don't fault them for that, but you can't then try hold to that whilst simultaneously justifying, in the story, sundering the world to avoid the Plenty. In fact, some of the impulses of the sundered open up the other worlds shown as possibilities. That is my issue with it. Had they pushed the sundering as the result of a tragic misunderstanding, but which would now come at a very gruesome cost to reverse, at least using Ascian methods (and really, from a practical perspective, requiring something like 1.0->2.0 to pull off beyond that)? I'd accept that. I also think it's a little silly for other reasons - plenty of humans are content to live their lives focused mostly on entirely hedonistic pursuits, yet the way the story is written, we should be heading to a dead end ourselves as we eclipse sources of suffering and are able to focus more on leisure. I remain committed to the idea of doing so, particularly with ills like ageing, and I found the story to be rather juvenile, as you say, in how forced a caricature the Plenty seemed to be... could these individuals not invent ways to keep their minds occupied? Even so, the setting has a star-centric system of reincarnation, so it's not like life on their star wouldn't one day rekindle (Meteion aside.)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

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Nope! I love G'raha. I still hold that I'd push every Scion into the Void if I could pal around with Hyth and Emet for good instead but as Scions go, he's one of the ones I like.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

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Oh, G'raha is fine. I don't mind him, but I wouldn't consider him one of my favorites, is all. But we are also definitely in the minority when it comes to Venat - in those 2ch polls where G'raha did well, Venat was also #3 and #2, in sequence. Alas. At least the best of best friends, Zenos, moved up several places between the two polls!

As far as the WoL goes, I actually generally really love the feeling of collaboration between the game's writing and my input to create a personal character for myself. I like the capacity for my WoL to surprise me in how they react, and feel like they have some degree of agency that gets my imagination running. Of course, I totally understand dissonance - I rolled my eyes at my WoL playing nice with Merlwyb all the way back from ARR, and I probably don't need to elaborate further on Venat. I also didn't like Hien or Gaius, two other people that the WoL liked or learned to get along with. Venat, though, is the only one that was sort of a game-breaker, of sorts, to me - the rest weren't a huge deal, or I could otherwise rationalize it. I don't feel the need to be on the exact same page with my opinions on events or characters as my WoL, necessarily, most of the time.

I was somewhat surprised that poor Elidibus hasn't moved to the top fave characters yet in the polls - any of them, really. Maybe by the end of Pandaemonium he will. I'm glad Hyth and Emet-Selch at least get recognition. Regarding G'raha, I don't like him appearance-wise, and while he was tolerable as the Exarch, he isn't my choice of travelling companion, and I find the fanboyism offputting. I also don't like the writing pushing the idea that I, via my character, "owe" him this. I was hoping for a fresh cast going forwards, but if we're talking about NPCs I am amenable towards, it'd be Arenvald (although he'll need to trade in that wheelchair for a magitek one!), Estinien, Fordola, Hien, Magnai, Sadu, Riol, Jullus, maybe Gaius... even Gaia. I like Thancred, but he's due a retirement. Don't mind Y'shtola but same sentiment. No love for the twins, Tataru etc. I'd really have loved a sundered Overlord travelling companion, if I am honest, particularly with Zodiark and the unsundered now gone - especially if the Reflections are a destination, it'd be interesting to have one as a guide, with a revised agenda, since they were operating there.

All my top choices are gone now (Emet, Hyth, Elidibus, possibly Laha), but it is what it is.

https://i.imgur.com/yjBoUIE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AKbAxp8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6ZyJnSd.jpg


If only Venat had the same line of thinking as our FF13 protagonists. I guess thats why i just cant take Endwalker seriously. It kind of goes against past ff themes.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I also think it's a little silly for other reasons - plenty of humans are content to live their lives focused mostly on entirely hedonistic pursuits, yet the way the story is written, we should be heading to a dead end ourselves as we eclipse sources of suffering and are able to focus more on leisure. I remain committed to the idea of doing so, particularly with ills like ageing, and I found the story to be rather juvenile, as you say, in how forced a caricature the Plenty seemed to be... could these individuals not invent ways to keep their minds occupied? Even so, the setting has a star-centric system of reincarnation, so it's not like life on their star wouldn't one day rekindle (Meteion aside.)

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Indeed. The game tries to treat a post-scarcity as its the worst thing ever. Like, if humankind isn't struggling for subsistence, then we're decadent. I think one of humankind's worst self-inflicted tragedies was convincing itself that leisure was not a basic human right.

We live in an age where work is glorified and sanctified above all else. I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

Leisure is a basic human need that gets a bum rap.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Indeed. The game tries to treat a post-scarcity as its the worst thing ever. Like, if humankind isn't struggling for subsistence, then we're decadent. I think one of humankind's worst self-inflicted tragedies was convincing itself that leisure was not a basic human right.

We live in an age where work is glorified and sanctified above all else. I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

Leisure is a basic human need that gets a bum rap.

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Personally, I'm pretty sure navigating human relationships and getting immersed in/arguing over one's hobbies (well, hello there, everyone! <_<), along with encouraging interest in things like debate and the arts, would be enough to keep someone's brain occupied and stimulated on a near-perpetual basis - without necessitating the extreme suffering like war, disease, poverty, inequality, what have you. If not, I'm one of those who honestly didn't see anything wrong with the Ancients' death ritual and actually found it really attractive.

Yep. There's ways in which suffering is valuable, but it will always exist at a minimum in the sense that you'll never always get everything you want - e.g. you'll never have everyone agree with you all the time, you'll never always be able to please others, competing priorities etc. Putting up with more severe forms of it, of the sort you mention, is largely something you have to do in societies still grappling with scarcity, but even then, we gradually aim to reduce it, and (mostly) shift the need/urge for competitive stimulation to more controlled formats, e.g. sports, sparring, games etc. All pursuits we see with the ancients. As for the denizens of the Plenty? Let's just say it requires a rather colossal suspension of disbelief. :p

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Originally Posted by Brinne

If not, I'm one of those who honestly didn't see anything wrong with the Ancients' death ritual and actually found it really attractive.

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Yes, that part really captivated me - the way they understood it as returning to the star and forming part of its lifeblood. They really did see it as something sacred. I got the sense of that from the way the Convocation crystals referred to the star, as well as some of the other stuff like the logs in the Words of Mitron, and EW helped thread that all together. It makes a ton of sense given the soul cycle in the setting.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Nope! I love G'raha. I still hold that I'd push every Scion into the Void if I could pal around with Hyth and Emet for good instead but as Scions go, he's one of the ones I like.

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Yay! I do feel somewhat guilty that I wouldn't miss Alisaie since she's one of the WoL's few true friends among the Scions. Since we're stuck with them, I hope they'll give her more time to shine to become more like a Sam to our Frodo (although G'raha could fill that role too). I liked that those two were the ones who ran up to the WoL during the body swap scene (and cried at the end when we 'died'), it just further illustrated who the closest ones to the WoL are.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

I don't feel the need to be on the exact same page with my opinions on events or characters as my WoL, necessarily, most of the time.

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Exempting Venat who, as you said, was a game-breaker, I've been consistently irritated with how closed-minded my character is. Can we at least hear someone out first (especially strangers!) before scowling and doing the 'come at me' stance? My character is constantly looking to start fights unprovoked. Conversely, how I'm made to act like I cared about Minfilia (my most hated character even over Venat). Fortunately, when it comes to my WoL liking people I dislike it's limited in some way or another whereas the former is a fairly consistent behavior I suspect isn't going to be coming to an end going into future storylines.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I was somewhat surprised that poor Elidibus hasn't moved to the top fave characters yet in the polls - any of them, really. Maybe by the end of Pandaemonium he will.

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Poor Elidibus. He's certainly above most of the characters listed in those surveys for me. Also, Sadu is best girl.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I remember being in a conference recently where they demonstrated that most people who work in office shifts spend about 20% of their time pretending pretending to work or finding some other form of what the speakers called "meaningless work". Just work for work's sake, because otherwise they would be fired or their pay/jobs would be cut. They must "work" even if that work ultimately means nothing.

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"Look busy" is common in an office setting, especially if any of the top brass are visiting. Everyone has to appear productive. Fortunately, forums are a good way to look like you're doing something. :P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Am I the only anti-Venat person who likes G'raha? D:

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G'raha is fine as a character itself, if not a little bit too cringy (I like the Exarch tho). My reasons for disliking him are more due to meta reasons. Mainly because:

1) I personally have bad reactions to people/character like him or Zenos who were obsessed with us, due to unpleasant rl experience

2) it's quite clear by now that he's the writer's pet, because they know how much the fanbase love him. And because of that they tried to shove him nearly everywhere. I don't want them to sacrifice another character's time screen or spotlight just because they got g'raha to fawn over us and stroke the player's ego.

3) out of everyone, he's the only character who the WoL seems to have most reaction too. I'm okay with WoL liking him, but at least make it the same quantity(?) as how the WoL react to the other scions who definitely love the WoL as much as g'raha love us. It's kinda a consent issue for me, because I definitely doesn't feel that way towards him.

4) this is a somewhat baseless irrational thing, but I truly despise how ShB handled another character. And seeing how they treat g'raha with 180 instead just fills me more with contempt. This is why I've come to distrust and be antagonistic towards the writer. I don't think that feeling will go away completely.

Iirc,you mentioned before how you dislike you don't get other options than to be nice and friendly towards minfilia and venat. This is basically the same as to how I feel towards g'raha.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

(although someone mentioned he liked us during the CT raids when he was unaware of our exploits)

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he already know who's us ever since the start? That's why he hide the sand(?) thing?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Anyway are we seriously pretending that all of Europe is the same across the board here? Last time I checked there were some marked differences between say the UK and Italy, both locations being exponentially more interesting and appealing than the empty savannah of Australia.

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Are you quite serious? Telling people they shouldn't talk like all parts of a continent are the same, and then dismissing another continent as boring because (you claim) it's all a single caricatured landscape?

Australia is an entire continent with a vast range of landscapes, just as much as Europe.

I'm not really familiar with Africa beyond its stereotypes, but it's several times bigger than either Australia or Europe so it probably has even more variety.

I forgot that during the rather infamously slow second visit to Labyrinthos, Cookingway randomly goes into a philosophical speech about how it's the reckless pursuit of perfection, oblivious to the consequences that led multiple civilizations to their ends.

If their intent was to make that applicable to the Ancients...then that's just a further bit of narrative dissonance because they mention that the Convocation had debated at length about the decision they were going to make. The people of the Plenty really didn't feel that similar to the Ancients either as it's stated through words and implied through the scenery that they cast off all potential sources of strife, even the ones that made life more fulfilling. There was no indication that the Ancients were trying to do the same, as they had debate halls specifically so people could voice disagreements in a structured civil manner, plus they had very...questionable standards of what constitutes "beneficial to the star" when it comes to their creations, but seemed to just accept the dangers inherent to the task.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Here comes the 50000 gil question.

Both Elidibus and Hydaelyn speak of a promise we made so long ago. Elidibus does not know to whom he made the promise and what it was. My WoL can't remember a promise either. Somehow I have the feeling that Elidibus and also Hydaelyn have promised Azem something.

Elidibus
What's it!? I have my mission!

Elidibus
I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to...to someone.

Elidibus
We spoke, and I swore...what? What did I...?

Hydaelyn
Though I knew failure after failure, by recalling thy tales---and my promise to thee---I found the strength to carry on.

Hydaelyn
Fulfill our promise. Right the wrongs committed when the world was yet whole. Silence the song of oblivion...

What have we promised ? I watched so many Cutscenes but there is no promise.

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I would have to go over our conversations with Venat to answer that question regarding her (I would guess either our conversation up on the walkway or just before we return to our own time), but I don't think it's related to Elidibus and his promise.

I also feel like a lot of people have latched onto the idea that "Elidibus will promise us something during the Pandæmonium storyline" when the resolution seems far more simple and presented within what we have already seen.

He took up the seat of Elidibus, and at that time would have made vows to the Convocation to uphold the duties of the seat. And then everything happens and now his memories are fading. Look at those quotes you included: first he forgets to whom he swore the promise, and then the promise itself. He is becoming a shell of himself, with no memory of why and what he is fighting for.

I'm still not really keen that they twisted his original role in the story into this – it rings a little much of the writers not being sure how he could be defeated, so they undermined him instead – but for what he is in 5.X it does a good job of showing how much his mind and memories are crumbling.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I forgot that during the rather infamously slow second visit to Labyrinthos, Cookingway randomly goes into a philosophical speech about how it's the reckless pursuit of perfection, oblivious to the consequences that led multiple civilizations to their ends.

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"When life gives you lemons*, make lemon muffins!"

* lemons in this context is narrative code for being forced to endure suffering, disease, tragedy and war

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I would have to go over our conversations with Venat to answer that question regarding her, but I don't think it's related to Elidibus and his promise.

I also feel like a lot of people have latched onto the idea that "Elidibus will promise us something during the Pandæmonium storyline" when the resolution seems far more simple and presented within what we have already seen.

He took up the seat of Elidibus, and at that time would have made vows to the Convocation to uphold the duties of the seat. And then everything happens and now his memories are fading. Look at those quotes you included: first he forgets to whom he swore the promise, and then the promise itself. He is becoming a shell of himself, with no memory of why and what he is fighting for.

I'm still not really keen that they twisted his original role in the story into this – it rings a little much of the writers not being sure how he could be defeated, so they undermined him instead – but for what he is in 5.X it does a good job of showing how much his mind and memories are crumbling.

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It’s sad to think that, had they gone with their plan of 1-2 more expansions, how much better Elidibus could have been as a character. I think it’s very easy to see he was rushed, but he still managed to be incredibly compelling in the short span of time we got him. Imagine an entire expansion of him getting his arc and seeing how he ticks and all that. I wonder if it could have topped base shb.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s sad to think that, had they gone with their plan of 1-2 more expansions, how much better Elidibus could have been as a character. I think it’s very easy to see he was rushed, but he still managed to be incredibly compelling in the short span of time we got him. Imagine an entire expansion of him getting his arc and seeing how he ticks and all that. I wonder if it could have topped base shb.

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For the direction he was ticking in, I can't see an additional expansion doing anything to his character besides a lot more vague declarations about his duty and the proper course of the star, and a slower decline into memory loss.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s sad to think that, had they gone with their plan of 1-2 more expansions, how much better Elidibus could have been as a character. I think it’s very easy to see he was rushed, but he still managed to be incredibly compelling in the short span of time we got him. Imagine an entire expansion of him getting his arc and seeing how he ticks and all that. I wonder if it could have topped base shb.

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Elidibus lasted all of two and a half expansions, I think he was done just fine. Rather, they needed the extra expansion time for Garlemald and Thavnair more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

Here comes the 50000 gil question.

Both Elidibus and Hydaelyn speak of a promise we made so long ago. Elidibus does not know to whom he made the promise and what it was. My WoL can't remember a promise either. Somehow I have the feeling that Elidibus and also Hydaelyn have promised Azem something.

Elidibus
What's it!? I have my mission!

Elidibus
I am Elidibus! And it is my duty to steer mankind and the very star upon their true course. This I swore to...to someone.

Elidibus
We spoke, and I swore...what? What did I...?

Hydaelyn
Though I knew failure after failure, by recalling thy tales---and my promise to thee---I found the strength to carry on.

Hydaelyn
Fulfill our promise. Right the wrongs committed when the world was yet whole. Silence the song of oblivion...


What have we promised ? I watched so many Cutscenes but there is no promise.

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https://i.imgur.com/MkMkPd0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FrZ002G.jpg

I was skimming through the recent posts and just want to be certain that we all know that teenagers can have romantic feelings, right? We're not talking about pre-teens or (shudder) prepubescents here.

Also, this game is rated T in the ESRB, which is supposed to be suitable for as young as 13 and older, so the WoL itself could be a teen.

Anyways, that said, I don't think there is any danger of a forced romantic relationship with the WoL. They'll probably, at most, have a certain level of ambiguity that is open for interpretation, and I personally think that would suit this game better, though having no hint toward any possibility would also work. Two people having a close relationship should not have to be more than friends as a default interpretation.

As for the promise, I would also think that has to do with being in the office of Elidibus (for Elidibus) and fighting Meteion (for Venat).