Please Allow 50's to Enter Ishgard w/o having completed MSQ

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Rhapsodies of Vanadiel is a 3 part content release which will be FFXIs final content, first part went live, 2nd and 3rd will be relased over this year. Only info about 2016 is that they are dropping support for the consoles and willbe PC only.They will cantinue with bug and balance patchews, but no new content after RoV.

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Thanks for the clarification... just skimmed the email when it came in. Haven't been in that game in about 2 years or so. Not sure if I could go back to it now...would have to retrain my brain for how it's BLM and SMN work. Not to mention the nightmare of reloading and updating all that content again...was on XP Pro so did a full wipe to move to Win8 x64. IDK.. if my old HRLS friends started lobbying for it, would probably give it a shot... but too invested in XIV for now.

The point is that IP went through this same kind of stuff with some of it's expansions, and it is still alive and kicking after 13 years, with at least another year still in it for sure. Not unreasonable to expect this ex-pac and future ones will do just fine--despite the whiners that want the Staples Easy Button.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Um, too bad that they can't spend a little time doing fresh content just so they can gain access to more fresh content? Their choice. If they would rather play a sandbox game, then this game is not designed with them in mind, nor will it EVER be.

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They should be allowed to do the fresh content as the job they want to do the fresh content as, which will foster positive learning in new players. The game is designed for the playerbase as a whole, without isolating people, and this is why I'm stressing it's a bad design decision that they should change.

If they changed it due to fan's request, would you then argue that it wasn't "Made for the people" who want it the current way?

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Funny, the 'zergrush' method IS doing story in Heavensward. So the point is moot.

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So the fastest way is to sit, play, and read every quest, doing dungouns for the first time and learning the mechanics of the class, etc etc?
It's not, you're just assuming that people will do it the way that people level alts / off-classes will do it.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

18 hours is based on several accounts in this thread, if you read back. and that is at patch 2.55.
Itemized, that comes down to 9 hours story, 9 hours grind.

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Mm, fair point, haven't read every post. :) Good to know there are some resources here saying that they were able to do it in 18 hours with experience, however - as you said below, we don't have any fresh data on the secnario of a new player, whcih is the major concern at the moment.

I feel like it's more than 9 hours for the 1-50 story watching, que times (varies depending on role, too, so that's definitely extra time), and side-leveling, though below you state that the MSQ will eliminate the need to grind for XP or Gear... I'll be interested in seeing that, and thank you for the information~

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Yoshida's statement was that MSQ will eliminate the need to grind for XP or gear, because MSQ will provide more than two times as much, allowing you to coast to Ishgard explicitly doing MSQ.

Grind eliminated, level 1 to 50 (with i90+ gear) would then be 9 hours flat.

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As said above, might be the case, which is good but still might be frustrating for some players to have to grind out 9 hours

[QUOTE=Duuude007;3022874]Your special scenario ruled out needing to level from 1 to 30, so I did an estimate and said half as much time is needed to catch up for a level 30 player. So 4.5 hours.[/qupte]

1-30 is extremely fast by comparison to 30-50, but this would be such a minimalist difference (1/2+1/2 changed to 1/3rd+2/3rd really doesn't matter much) that I'll politely bow my head on that one. Was curious where your numbers were coming from, thanks for answering that :3

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Don't worry, we will have a large influx of data beginning the 23rd. And we are sure to get plenty of those newbies being carried by friends. Which is also a shame, as they won't learn jobs properly, but I digress.

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There's only a certain amount of carrying that people can do, though. :3 I don't know if people are going to be running through the dungouns on their 50's (Though they might be! Depends. Haven't seen SE's new system yet so def. excited for that.) People might just continue the traditional method of clearing it especially for the EXP.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

And if they play 20 minutes a day it will take two months. But neither of these time=progress sums really mean anything. To bring it up is just a distraction. People decide on whatever time they can commit, saying someone who plays less is owed more advantages is just plain silly.

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It's not really about being owed more, it's just that everyone should be able to access the jobs that start at level 30, at level 30. It makes the most logical sense and would be the best design for the flow of the game, as that's when you access all other jobs. Hell, I remember people arguing for level 1 new jobs so they could "Have the pleasure of leveling 1-30"... so glad SE didn't follow that mindset again.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Fun fact: If you want DRK, you had better be leveling MRD and GLA or you will suck. I mean. suck. No provoke/flash on an MP based tank? really? No extra cooldowns for survival? Skipping to DRK would be suicidal and punishing other players trying to "deal with you".
You would WANT to level a tank if your goal is DRK. You would likewise want to level a healer if AST is your goal, or LNC/ARC if you want Machinist. These really are advanced jobs in the sense that they lean on what you learned in the other jobs of the same role.

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Marauder Secondary Skills you would want:
Mercy stroke [26]
Maybe:
Foresight[2]
Bloodbath[8]
Gladiator Secondary Skills you would want:
Provoke(if it doesnt' have one attatched)[22]
Convalescence[10]
Maybe:
Flash[8]
Awareness [34]

Of the skills I just listed, only one of them actually go over 30. And, simply put, you would get a bulk of them by fufilling potential minimum requirements to unlock the class (Such as if DRK is GLAD/MRD to unlock.) My point being? Crossclass isn't an issue. And 1-30 isn't the issue. It's 30+ where they will potentially be spamming FATE's that's the issue. They might also choose to go 1-50 as a DPS. We have no way of knowing one way or another. They might see that the DRK is an awesome job, but think DRG look awesome too and since they gotta go 1-50 with a job anyways, may as well play a guy with a big pointy stick!

This is all an aside, however.

Simple fact is that even if you go 1-50 as GLD/MRD, that doesn't mean you'll know 30-50 as a DRK. Even the tanking dynamic between MRD/GLD is already different enough (So many paladins think you just spam overpower as a WAR, which is the least effective way to hold threat especially at level 50.)

Attempting to argue that a new player will take the most logical route on everything and therefore will fufill your minimalist requirements is not an effective arguement. Try to account for players who experiment and learn. We all came into this game a newb and didn't klnow the best ways to 50 / leveling. But we learned them after a time. between MRD/GLD is already different.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

They should be allowed to do the fresh content as the job they want to do the fresh content as, which will foster positive learning in new players. The game is designed for the playerbase as a whole, without isolating people, and this is why I'm stressing it's a bad design decision that they should change.

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Eh, I think you and I agree on a certain level, but what I am getting at is that learning the role they like is much more important than the specific job within the role. Jobs are interchangeable and have variance in between, but the role largely is not Tanks still lead, still pull hate, still blame the healer when they die. These new jobs are "earned" by accessing Ishgard, and the perk is, you aren't forced to begin them at level one, to make up for their gating. That was a concession SE made. But the sense of accomplishment like earning these types of things is valuable in themepark games. Precious even. Sandbox games are designed completely differently, and in all honesty rarely succeed as an MMO. Some people will inevitably gravitate to one or the other based on their play style, and trying to force one to change its nature is akin to telling a rock to sing a song.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

If they changed it due to fan's request, would you then argue that it wasn't "Made for the people" who want it the current way?

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No, rather I would point out that it is an enormous retcon which would taint the Final Fantasy brand if implemented so suddenly and without regard to established lore. Because the FF brand is first and foremost an IP with strong storytelling backbone. To establish an elaborate story and then say "ignore that Ishgard people hate outsiders, you were in a dream for the past 5 years" would be a tragic misstep for SE to make. One I am confident they are smart enough to avoid.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

So the fastest way is to sit, play, and read every quest, doing dungouns for the first time and learning the mechanics of the class, etc etc?
It's not, you're just assuming that people will do it the way that people level alts / off-classes will do it.

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Not sidequests, just MSQ. But yes. Fates/dungeons will not be as efficient as just doing the main scenario. And MSQ only had a handful of the overall dungeon pool.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Mm, fair point, haven't read every post. :) Good to know there are some resources here saying that they were able to do it in 18 hours with experience, however - as you said below, we don't have any fresh data on the secnario of a new player, whcih is the major concern at the moment.

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Can't wait 2 weeks lol?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

I feel like it's more than 9 hours for the 1-50 story watching, que times (varies depending on role, too, so that's definitely extra time), and side-leveling, though below you state that the MSQ will eliminate the need to grind for XP or Gear... I'll be interested in seeing that, and thank you for the information~ As said above, might be the case, which is good but still might be frustrating for some players to have to grind out 9 hours

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...sorry? I mean, really, some people will complain just to hear the sound of their own voice, where is the line...

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

1-30 is extremely fast by comparison to 30-50, but this would be such a minimalist difference (1/2+1/2 changed to 1/3rd+2/3rd really doesn't matter much) that I'll politely bow my head on that one. Was curious where your numbers were coming from, thanks for answering that :3

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Sure thing.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

There's only a certain amount of carrying that people can do, though. :3 I don't know if people are going to be running through the dungouns on their 50's (Though they might be! Depends. Haven't seen SE's new system yet so def. excited for that.) People might just continue the traditional method of clearing it especially for the EXP.

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The daily roulettes will FINALLY offer XP in fair quantities post level 50, which is a nice incentive on its own. SE made it clear they have every intention to make people 'want' to go back and do old content, and with priority queues for newbies, it will be simple to help those progressing.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

It's not really about being owed more, it's just that everyone should be able to access the jobs that start at level 30, at level 30. It makes the most logical sense and would be the best design for the flow of the game, as that's when you access all other jobs. Hell, I remember people arguing for level 1 new jobs so they could "Have the pleasure of leveling 1-30"... so glad SE didn't follow that mindset again.

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As I said before, what if the job were earned only in Ishgard, but it began as a level 1 class instead? It would be daunting, for sure. It would mean more people capping their 50 jobs first, which means fewer in the low level dungeons, and someone would inevitably argue that they should be allowed to roll a character as that job.

But it is an earned job, with quest prerequisites. Even if, hypothetically, SE decided all adventurers can now enter Ishgard, logic dictates they would not share their technology with untrusted outsiders. Normal job quests cannot be done until you have earned the respect and trust of the base class guild through questing for them. Earning Ishgard access is the equivalent to that, regardless of the class levels tied to that.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Marauder Secondary Skills you would want:
Mercy stroke [26]
Maybe:
Foresight[2]
Bloodbath[8]
Gladiator Secondary Skills you would want:
Provoke(if it doesnt' have one attatched)[22]
Convalescence[10]
Maybe:
Flash[8]
Awareness [34]

Of the skills I just listed, only one of them actually go over 30. And, simply put, you would get a bulk of them by fufilling potential minimum requirements to unlock the class (Such as if DRK is GLAD/MRD to unlock.) My point being? Crossclass isn't an issue. And 1-30 isn't the issue. It's 30+ where they will potentially be spamming FATE's that's the issue. They might also choose to go 1-50 as a DPS. We have no way of knowing one way or another. They might see that the DRK is an awesome job, but think DRG look awesome too and since they gotta go 1-50 with a job anyways, may as well play a guy with a big pointy stick!

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Its a good writeup, however what ones I prefer may differ to your's, especially once we learn how DRK is balanced. As for what to do, dungeons will be popular again, so anything post 30 would be ideal for that over fates. Beyond that, the smart move would be for a new player first to determine what role they like, and go between the classes to see which works best for them, with the end goal being to earn the trust of ishgardians so that they will let you test out the other jobs at level 30. Which could just as easily not be a job they like.

It really is just trial and error, top to bottom. And most of us are fine with that.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Players will be levelling up the new jobs in 3.0.... So there will be DRKs and AST for tanking and healing. So there may even be an increase in tanks and healers for new players going through the MSQ dungeons.

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Dungeons yes. Trials? Not so much.

Those leveling AST/DRK won't be needing those and trial roulette isnt worth doing for xp with how long they take to do some of them.

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Originally Posted by Raist

There is a strong case to be made for us doing roullettes more aggressively as well--since they'll be granting EXP again.

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Dungeons yes. Trials? No.

XP/hour ratio isnt high enough.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Dungeons yes. Trials? Not so much.

Those leveling AST/DRK won't be needing those and trial roulette isnt worth doing for xp with how long they take to do some of them.

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Granted we players currently have zero clue as to what trials in 3.0 will be like, but atm how long do current trials really take? Outside of SoF, obviously, the fact is that the majority of trials aren't that time intensive. It is part of the reason players que for trial roulette now-quick tomes.

Your opinion is as valid as mine on this, but i really doubt folks that take up the newer jobs are gonna pass on trial roulette, once they can use it.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Eh, I think you and I agree on a certain level, but what I am getting at is that learning the role they like is much more important than the specific job within the role. Jobs are interchangeable and have variance in between, but the role largely is not Tanks still lead, still pull hate, still blame the healer when they die. These new jobs are "earned" by accessing Ishgard, and the perk is, you aren't forced to begin them at level one, to make up for their gating. That was a concession SE made. But the sense of accomplishment like earning these types of things is valuable in themepark games. Precious even. Sandbox games are designed completely differently, and in all honesty rarely succeed as an MMO. Some people will inevitably gravitate to one or the other based on their play style, and trying to force one to change its nature is akin to telling a rock to sing a song.

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Yea, we definitely due agree on certain fundamental levels. It's why it's interesting to see the variance between us, and not something I begrudge you at all for. :3 Great thinkers will always pull away from one another, and very rarely can a consesus be reached in the Geth collective. Because overwrite their programming \o/.

As someone who plays just about every job ('cept Monk and Summoner), I gotta say there's enough subtly in each one that makes them different and unto themselves. This will likely be exhasperated in 3.0 with the new skills, drawing an even greater margin between every job.

We're going a little subjective when you argue the "Value of achievement." Some people will value their limited play time more, and will only be frustrated by gating which may well drive them away. Not to say it's not something that someone can't pull joy from - you're right. I know that sense of accomplishment and being rewarded is a very age-old psychology. But at the same time, I know people want to play the game as the job they want, and that to them is worthy of their time - but not the grind to 50.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

No, rather I would point out that it is an enormous retcon which would taint the Final Fantasy brand if implemented so suddenly and without regard to established lore. Because the FF brand is first and foremost an IP with strong storytelling backbone. To establish an elaborate story and then say "ignore that Ishgard people hate outsiders, you were in a dream for the past 5 years" would be a tragic misstep for SE to make. One I am confident they are smart enough to avoid.

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Well, we can argue retcons here, but the issue is that it's all writers. There are ways they could write it to make sense. Ways they could put the NPC's into the world without attatching it to Ishgard. Ways they could handle this effectively. I can't really agree with you as far as that's concerned - because the scenario you outline is but one writing style available to them.

One thing I do wish to discuss with you, however -
How does a player having access to ishgard hurt "Your lore" at all?

This is an extremely interesting point I've seen brought up multiple times. You can call it a retcon. However, you were able to experience everything leading up from 2.0-2.5 on your end. Is it not satisfactory to you unless -everyone- experiences the story the same way?

There is nothing to say they can not change the writing at this point to reflect an entry, or even to write the characters into the world in such a way that they make sense where they are, offering quests in specific areas, and NPC's in others.

Most people won't have a use entering Ishgard until 50, but the new classes, again, are offered at 30. If they were offered at 50, I would wholly agree with them being gated behind MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Not sidequests, just MSQ. But yes. Fates/dungeons will not be as efficient as just doing the main scenario. And MSQ only had a handful of the overall dungeon pool.

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Mm... MSQ is more than a handful of dungouns to be sure. It's at least 3 major trials leveling up, as well as a dungoun every roughly 3 levels post-15. (15,16,17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 35, 38, 41, 44, 47, 49 iirc? A few of those are optional... like 2-3 of them? So by my count about ~10 dungouns. Each lasting about 20-40 minutes depending. That's at least 200-400 minutes [4-7 hours since I can't give an approximate estimate])

The story is definitely not something time-wise to scoff at. There's a ton of leg work in there, mindless running around, very trivial quests that are made to eat up time. Remember doing the pre-titan quests, all that stuff to get a "Feast" together? Ugh. I wanted to break their neck in the storyline for wasting my time like that (not that the sentiment wasn't nice. But c'mon guys. **** your feast. I wanna kill a primal god.)

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Can't wait 2 weeks lol?

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:P We're talking in the here and now, that's all we got to go on at the moment. And at that point, it'll become it's own debating point for either side. Not much use sitting on the statement now. :P

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

...sorry? I mean, really, some people will complain just to hear the sound of their own voice, where is the line...

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If someone doesn't like something, they have the right to say they don't like it. Just like I haven't tried to pull that usual underhanded move of "If you don't like what the topic is saying, don't read it."

:3 I respect your thoughts on the matter not to try and discredit you in such a way. Please pay the same respects back in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The daily roulettes will FINALLY offer XP in fair quantities post level 50, which is a nice incentive on its own. SE made it clear they have every intention to make people 'want' to go back and do old content, and with priority queues for newbies, it will be simple to help those progressing.

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When you say that, my stomache lurches with dread. You know how SE made people "Want" to go back and do old content from 2.0 to 2.5? Relic grind. And we've all seen the mixed bag of reactions -that- can be.

Feel free to be optimistic about it though :3 Hopefully those roulettes are worthwhile and not nail-bitingly frustrating. Should be good to see if it will be worthwhile on a per-level basis.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Its a good writeup, however what ones I prefer may differ to your's, especially once we learn how DRK is balanced. As for what to do, dungeons will be popular again, so anything post 30 would be ideal for that over fates. Beyond that, the smart move would be for a new player first to determine what role they like, and go between the classes to see which works best for them, with the end goal being to earn the trust of ishgardians so that they will let you test out the other jobs at level 30. Which could just as easily not be a job they like.

It really is just trial and error, top to bottom. And most of us are fine with that.

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Eh, even if your preferences differ from mine, in order to have all possible cross classes you only have to take Gladiator to 34 (for awareness), and Marauder to 26. So in the end, the point I was trying to make is that you're going to be given that 1-30 exposure regardless, because if they made it a main+sub requirement like current jobs, you would be required to get at least one of those to 30, and the other to 15, covering a majority of those skills.

I won't deny there's a "SmarT" way to do things. But not everyone does things the smart way. Assuming they will is a big no-no to me because I do want the early game to be welcoming to an extent.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

As said above, might be the case, which is good but still might be frustrating for some players to have to grind out 9 hours

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Best argument in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Best argument in the thread.

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Well a grind implies doing the same thing over and over, the tasks in MSQ are effectively varied to the point where it couldn't truly be a grind. Fetch quests, yes, but the goalpost is never the exact same.

That and we don't know how much is being dropped from msq requirements, I know some tasks are... tangential.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

One thing I do wish to discuss with you, however -
How does a player having access to ishgard hurt "Your lore" at all?

This is an extremely interesting point I've seen brought up multiple times. You can call it a retcon. However, you were able to experience everything leading up from 2.0-2.5 on your end. Is it not satisfactory to you unless -everyone- experiences the story the same way?

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Its more than that. If they open the gates to everyone and their mom, they would need a well thought out reason to do so, or it would fly in the face of five years worth of Coerthan NPCs giving us the proverbial finger when we walk by, quests explaining how xenophobic they are, the fact the shield hasn't come down except for residents in the past five years, and even the relentless examples in the MSQ explaining how they won't raise a finger to help even when a flipping moon is about to impact the planet. FOr FF to reverse all of that would, in all likelihood, require a massive rewrite of their entire story. Which would be damaging to their brand.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

There is nothing to say they can not change the writing at this point to reflect an entry, or even to write the characters into the world in such a way that they make sense where they are, offering quests in specific areas, and NPC's in others.

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They may indeed find an effective way to allow it without screwing up the lore, but I don't see it myself. Time will tell. Even if they did allow anyone brand new in, I would completely agree that they continue the distrust until said players clear Steps of Faith as the equivalent of completing the final guild class quest to earn their trust and access to the jobs. Note I didnt mention level once. Its all about nudging the people til they like you, not what gear you are wearing. The conditions don't HAVE to be the same across the board. Just like you can't roll Rogue, the arcanist has TWO jobs you need only level once for access to both, and now some jobs are classless. Variety is good, yes?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Most people won't have a use entering Ishgard until 50, but the new classes, again, are offered at 30. If they were offered at 50, I would wholly agree with them being gated behind MSQ.

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See, i think even suggesting them to be level 50 is too much of a handout, even for the work it takes to gain access to them. They NEED people to keep queueing roulettes, and the best way is to give those of us with 50 'everything' a reason to go back to them.

1 is overkill. 50 makes content too easy to skip. 30 is a nice round number which allows compromise.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

A Sandbox MMO, no such animal exists. The definition most people are using for sandbox MMO's are just open-ended games with little to no storyline. A true sandbox game would literately allow you to stomp over everything and everyone if that is what the player wants. As it is, it's mostly a marketing buzzword for "you can put your house anywhere" and "lots of stuff to craft." It would be more fair to call these "crafting-oriented RPG" rather than a sandbox.

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This is misleading...ish.

Sandbox MMOs certainly exist. Eve, Archage, and the upcoming EQ Next to name a few.

The trick to the sandbox, however is that its ability to thrive... AS a sandbox... is very fickle. Most sandbox games don't last a year because of the difficulty it takes to be stretched so thin in so many aspects and still try to form some sort of viable community in all of that hot mess.

Eve is the only sandbox MMO that I can think of that has truly bucked the odds and proven it could survive, even thrive as a sandbox model.

Still it is incredibly different from a themepark game like XIV.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

1) Those are not CASUAL players you so want to protect.
2) Those people need a Sandbox MMO, not a Themepark MMO, FFXIV is a story-focused themepark MMO.

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I hate these labels because there's no actual definition.

A Sandbox MMO, no such animal exists. The definition most people are using for sandbox MMO's are just open-ended games with little to no storyline. A true sandbox game would literately allow you to stomp over everything and everyone if that is what the player wants. As it is, it's mostly a marketing buzzword for "you can put your house anywhere" and "lots of stuff to craft." It would be more fair to call these "crafting-oriented RPG" rather than a sandbox.

A themepark MMO, is what most MMORPG's are when there is a storyline involved. You can "hop off" the storyline ride and do other stuff, and pick up where you left off. There is no inherent risk in delaying storyline completion. That princess that was abducted 3 months ago? It will be like it was no less than 5 minutes ago. These are better defined as "story-driven RPG"

Story-driven games crafting elements are often a waste of time and completely optional because equivalent gear is obtainable from just playing the combat content. Meanwhile crafting-oriented games only you to progress by crafting certain things yourself, and the RPG elements of these games are often limited by resource scarcity.

If there was nothing but a story, then as soon as the player completes the story, they unsubscribe and go play something else. What keeps people playing is the quest to be prepared for the next content patch.