Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Saraide

From what I heard from the BLM mentors the paradox rotation is harder than more standard rotations while providing less damage overall and I think the dragon kick rotation is also pretty hard to do correctly. If you actually just spam dragon kick your dps output is going to be bad. These meme rotations are not a problem.

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Both take a little skill but they take a LOT less skill for a little less dps.

That's the point.

Neither should be anywhere comparable to a good player.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

We do have a term for these people, meta slaves. Fun is not their primary concern, they only care about rewards, the easier they get their rewards, the happier they are (whatever rewards they're looking for, could be easier clears of content, getting good logs easier, etc.). It's these people who lock jobs out of their PF for a 100-200 dps difference. If another job has an edge over theirs, they will ask for their job to get the same tool without a care that this causes homogenisation. These are the type of people that the dev team shouldn't listen to, they'd suck any fun out of the game if it meant they get their reward easier.

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I was thinking after I posted what really defines this type of player is someone who wants the meta of any given aspect of the game to be the default experience for everyone. Hence, the state of jobs and the meta. Makes sense. But these are players who are inevitably min maxers imo because your casual joe player who wants rewards quickly doesn't necessarily understand the two minute meta or rotation theory to begin with. It's worth denoting the difference though because of the way they're applying their findings.

And the reason I say this is because some of the two minute metas biggest defenders are people who have played since 2.0 and do understand job evolution over time etc., they're not just people who are beholden to whatever a given meta is at the time. It can potentially take away their agency to reduce them all to people who wantonly submit feedback with a singular goal-- I think a lot of them know exactly what they're doing and simply want the game to be this way.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I was thinking after I posted what really defines this type of player is someone who wants the meta of any given aspect of the game to be the default experience for everyone. Hence, the state of jobs and the meta. Makes sense. But these are players who are inevitably min maxers imo because your casual joe player who wants rewards quickly doesn't necessarily understand the two minute meta or rotation theory to begin with. It's worth denoting the difference though because of the way they're applying their findings.

And the reason I say this is because some of the two minute metas biggest defenders are people who have played since 2.0 and do understand job evolution over time etc., they're not just people who are beholden to whatever a given meta is at the time. It can potentially take away their agency to reduce them all to people who wantonly submit feedback with a singular goal-- I think a lot of them know exactly what they're doing and simply want the game to be this way.

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Discrimination is two ways. In truth, everyone has a goals they want to achieve, and hypothetically those goals should be achievable when they are made available to people who play within a reasonable amount of time. Savage is never going to be accessible to every single individual, and neither is the zodiac weapons grind or even the bozja armor, because as individuals we are all different people, stubbornly living within a world full of black boxes and unknowns. But when someone who normally does content successfully has trouble with the given content because of changes made to the game, that feedback has meaning and should be taken into consideration. I never completed a zodiac relic, and probably never will because it isn't content that I partake in, but I do partake in savage and have successfully completed multiple tiers since shadowbringers. It has been a downward spiral of frustration and a feeling of the rewards not being worth the effort. Again, we have to be able to live through something to learn from it both in real life and in game. If fights are built where a single person can wipe everyone because they are not at the same point as the rest of the group, they will hold the group back under this system.

Do people really want to live in a game that rewards discarding others, simply because they are not quite at the same point? In Ultimate, it is the expectation that this is how it should work, but savage should not be a place where this occurs. There are better ways to punish getting hit then to instantly wipe the entire group and they already have these methods in the fight, such as damage downs preventing clearing the boss fight.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Yes but as I said in my previous post-- who are the people calling out for the changes to the jobs and the two minute meta? These are not people who want the game to be more fun-- they want job viability to an extreme degree and easy access to optimal damage output. This is the number one reaction anyone gives when people talk about jobs having more unique identity-- "well in 2.0 no one wanted warrior" etc. Obviously every game needs balance, but I'd argue XIV will not tolerate an ounce of risk out of fear of the 2.0 era or whatever.

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No offense but... you clearly haven't been around those circles. Even min maxers have been complaining about the boring job design and especially the two minute meta. In fact, it's downright reviled because now everything boils down to crit RNG. Didn't Crit, Direct Hit your blade combo? Whelp, sucks for your parse even though it's quite literally identical to your previous runs.

Very few higher end players, be they speed runners, parsers or simply hardcore players who raid log want "job viability to an extreme degree". That is a very common misconception. Do they have their preferences? Naturally. But they'll either play whatever's good or are good enough to overcome job deficiencies, provided they aren't too absurd ala tank balance for early Abyssos or 6.3 TOP in general. The issue is how the dev team has approached balance. You can have job design with healthy amounts of similarity yet still manage to differentiate themselves enough. Melee, for instance, mostly accomplish this. Ninja doesn't play at all like Dragoon nor do either play like Monk. Their far bigger issue is a lack of engaging gameplay outside the two minute window. Which is why you weren't seeing nearly as much criticism towards job homogenization in Shadowbringers despite it existing there too.

So why is the dev team balancing this way? If I were to hazard a guess. It's significantly easier when everything is largely similar, And with soon to be 21 jobs, the already understaffed design department simply has reached capacity. Sebazy has talked about it at length but for cliffnotes sake, we've essentially have the save 5-6 people working on job design since ARR. Couple that with the overemphasis on accessibility the last two expansions and you start to see why jobs have been dumbed down. They're easier to balance and more casual players can pick them up without much thought.

The reality is a game that wants every job to be viable at the highest level will always have some degree of homogeny. It's unavoidable. What is frustrating this expansion is despite placing so much emphasis on making jobs easier, we've seen some of the worst balancing decisions since Heavensward. Which leads me to believe it's a lack of creativity being the biggest culprit.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Even min maxers have been complaining about the boring job design and especially the two minute meta.

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Minmaxers aren't a monolith, but that rule applies to all posts on the subject. I've already explained in another post that you cannot make the assumption these "meta slaves" (I've also heard of them being called "s***tters") are all casual joes who just want easy access to big rewards at any cost. When we talk about this group, certainly a portion of them (if not a majority of them) have the wherewithal to discuss rotations, aDPS/rDPS, build crafting, etc. Yes, some of them are probably more casual players in the mix as well. There can be range of motivations for someone to prefer the two minute meta-- acting like some of those people aren't minmaxers because you have noble perception of minmaxing in RPGs is your preference. I don't agree and I do not need to know an alleged group of them to say that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The reality is a game that wants every job to be viable at the highest level will always have some degree of homogeny. It's unavoidable. What is frustrating this expansion is despite placing so much emphasis on making jobs easier, we've seen some of the worst balancing decisions since Heavensward. Which leads me to believe it's a lack of creativity being the biggest culprit.

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You could say every MMORPG wants this. I'd argue it's a waste of time because metas can and do form anyway based on highly contextual variables, in XIV and in most games. Yoshi P is on record as saying "we could do" , "we would like to do", etc., but they don't because of "players". I have already covered that it could be a creative issue or a resource constraint, but a. That's not my problem and b. They can fix it and they should.

Also it is avoidable, it's called listening to players and saying "I am sorry that does not align with our vision for the job, no". Circling back to the issue of "minmaxers", devs wouldn't be listening to the feedback about raid buff metas from casuals who likely aren't even aware of the two minute meta as a concept. Does that mean every single person giving feedback is a minmaxer? No, it does not. My original post about stepping on the toes of minxmaxers doesn't make this clear, but in that case yes I was using minmaxer because I was thinking about players whose feedback actually has the context and detail necessary to really be considered by the game designers. Not just people saying "I wannna win more".

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I was thinking after I posted what really defines this type of player is someone who wants the meta of any given aspect of the game to be the default experience for everyone. Hence, the state of jobs and the meta. Makes sense. But these are players who are inevitably min maxers imo because your casual joe player who wants rewards quickly doesn't necessarily understand the two minute meta or rotation theory to begin with. It's worth denoting the difference though because of the way they're applying their findings.

And the reason I say this is because some of the two minute metas biggest defenders are people who have played since 2.0 and do understand job evolution over time etc., they're not just people who are beholden to whatever a given meta is at the time. It can potentially take away their agency to reduce them all to people who wantonly submit feedback with a singular goal-- I think a lot of them know exactly what they're doing and simply want the game to be this way.

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You misunderstand, I didn't say meta slaves are all casuals. I said that they're people who aren't good enough to hit the peak or they can't be bothered to optimise to that point, the simplifications and homogenisation benefits them and only them. Even the casuals hate the loss of identity and flavour in between jobs.

The people I'm describing are at the level of around 50-90% performance, they're on the entire spectrum of average to above average. They do understand the basics of combat and some do enter into discussions of optimisation mechanics. The key difference between them and the min-maxers is that the meta slaves want things to be easier for them, the min-maxers work around the weaknesses of their job, the meta slaves pick the path of least resistance and they get annoyed when other jobs have advantages over theirs.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You misunderstand, I didn't say meta slaves are all casuals. I said that they're people who aren't good enough to hit the peak or they can't be bothered to optimise to that point, the simplifications and homogenisation benefits them and only them. Even the casuals hate the loss of identity and flavour in between jobs.

The people I'm describing are at the level of around 50-90% performance, they're on the entire spectrum of average to above average. They do understand the basics of combat and some do enter into discussions of optimisation mechanics. The key difference between them and the min-maxers is that the meta slaves want things to be easier for them, the min-maxers work around the weaknesses of their job, the meta slaves pick the path of least resistance and they get annoyed when other jobs have advantages over theirs.

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Misshapen Chair kind of went off on this archetype of player in the last FFXIV video he did not long ago. Someone who feels the need to be the best, to always win, and that anything shy of that is anti-fun and unacceptable, and yet at the same time, sees any effort into reaching that status as work and cannot be asked to put in any additional effort to better their performance. They don't want to learn the game, they just want to jump in and win.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Misshapen Chair kind of went off on this archetype of player in the last FFXIV video he did not long ago. Someone who feels the need to be the best, to always win, and that anything shy of that is anti-fun and unacceptable, and yet at the same time, sees any effort into reaching that status as work and cannot be asked to put in any additional effort to better their performance. They don't want to learn the game, they just want to jump in and win.

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I usually just called them tryhard-wannabes. People who only pick whatever is the current meta, without even understanding why it is the way it is, and just expect that to solve all their problems, who throw a fit when they wipe and their immediate assumption is that it's because someone isn't playing whatever job is the theoretical best, the kind of people that were still kicking Samurais from their party finder groups in 4.3 because they read on The Balance that it's not very good at some point.

Who think of themselves as a 99th percentile player when they're actually only ~50th percentile but of course they could totally be the best if it weren't for this system or that job mechanic and of course it's not because of them, it's the game holding them back.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I usually just called them tryhard-wannabes. People who only pick whatever is the current meta, without understanding why it's the meta, and just expect that to solve all their problems, who throw a fit when they wipe and their immediate assumption is that it's because someone isn't playing whatever job is the theoretical best, the kind of people that were still kicking Samurais from their party finder groups in 4.3.

Who think of themselves as a 99th percentile player when they're actually only ~50th percentile but of course they could totally be the best if it weren't for this system or that job mechanic and of course it's not because of them, it's the game's fault.

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It's nicer than Chair's name for them. "Shitters"

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You misunderstand, I didn't say meta slaves are all casuals. I said that they're people who aren't good enough to hit the peak or they can't be bothered to optimise to that point, the simplifications and homogenisation benefits them and only them. Even the casuals hate the loss of identity and flavour in between jobs.

The people I'm describing are at the level of around 50-90% performance, they're on the entire spectrum of average to above average. They do understand the basics of combat and some do enter into discussions of optimisation mechanics. The key difference between them and the min-maxers is that the meta slaves want things to be easier for them, the min-maxers work around the weaknesses of their job, the meta slaves pick the path of least resistance and they get annoyed when other jobs have advantages over theirs.

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Yes, I totally agree that their motivations and inclinations are different and that minmaxer wasn't the ideal word to use in my original post. It's hard to convey over a forum-- maybe "optimizers with an /s" is really what I'm trying to convey here. Regarding the meta they are interchangeable effectively however I am indeed referring to people who strictly have it out to make jobs/combat as streamlined as possible which is taking us down a road of homogeny

You mentioned these people don't want fun and again that is who I am speaking to but I wouldn't say they don't want fun. I'd say there are two sides of the player base like left brain and right brain. Some people have a balance so many it's three sides. In any case the side that is over optimizing everything regardless of their play style or intentions are making the game their own idea of fun. Players that want more creativity find it boring. Etc.

So at this rate based on the keynote, we have will have the media tour happen around late March with all that information then being disclosed in April.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

So at this rate based on the keynote, we have will have the media tour happen around late March with all that information then being disclosed in April.

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I’m a little curious when the benchmark trailer was going to be revealed, because we should have the job actions trailer before the media tour, and that’s 3 big hotspots for information to drop in around 6-8 months, which feels tighter than usual.

Bringing this back to the front page again. And there are most certainly people who are quite tired of me bumping this old thread time and time again especially with all the new stuff that Dawntrail is bringing. I bring it because we were at this same point in Stormblood and that game saw a fair decrease in healers imagine if something like that happens here. They need to start getting someone who can design healers and actually mains healers in content.

Healers have been neglected for far too long. I'm more anxious about any changes they'll be getting than I am for the job I actually play.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Bringing this back to the front page again. And there are most certainly people who are quite tired of me bumping this old thread time and time again especially with all the new stuff that Dawntrail is bringing. I bring it because we were at this same point in Stormblood and that game saw a fair decrease in healers imagine if something like that happens here. They need to start getting someone who can design healers and actually mains healers in content.

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I didn't even bother with healing due to the pressures they put on them in the expansion. The second tier of savage was pretty rough from all the bleeds and what not, and then outside of healing it was a limited rotation coupled with emergency spam rezzing.

It's actually sad how single issue I've become with this game over this. I'm actually excited for Pictomancer, the MSQ, the new Foray, Eden Ultimate, etc, but if healers stay in this rut for another 2-3 years I'm not going to be playing the game at all, no matter what potentially really fun things they put into it. It can't be understated how much I love this game, how many friends I've made and how much time I've put into it, but enough is enough.

I would really love to be able to enjoy Dawntrail like DPS players will be able to. I know I've said it nearly 900 times at this point with my posts, but please get off this terrible, terrible design for the healer role.

Honestly, I really want to know who this current healer design is meant to satisfy. People who want to optimise get shafted by a dull damage kit and a stupid amount of OGCDs to mash so you never have to think about what to use. People who want to heal get shafted by heals being so powerful and damage intake being so low across the majority of the content.

I get so confused when we get people that say they love the current healer design, what's there to love about it? It's a design that shafts everyone and satisfies no one.

Something I have noticed is that a fair amount of people who have said healing is fine or good haven't really shown up recently. I know this could be for a variety of reasons though. I wonder what kind of fallout will happen with Dawntrail for healers and I wonder how they are going to handle it in 7.1 or 7.2.

Can't wait to get the same story with the new savage when there will be complaints about it being easy to heal and them saying the same thing again and again trying to say we will make things harder etc etc.

Square enix has got to realise that leaving healers on the same state they are in right now while adding 2 new DPS without Bozja being a viable option anymore is going to spell disaster for queue times for everyone

Remember ShB when they murdered healer design then added a tank and a DPS, healer queues were so instant you could queue for monestary at 3am and it would pop instantly

This is the perfect expansion to actually change support jobs, so they can present it as “play one of the new DPS or play our recently redone support jobs” sort of like how they sold SMN as the third new class of EW

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I didn't even bother with healing due to the pressures they put on them in the expansion. The second tier of savage was pretty rough from all the bleeds and what not, and then outside of healing it was a limited rotation coupled with emergency spam rezzing.

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The second tier wasn't even a healer check, it was a mitigation check, which meant that healers had to hope DPS players had their mitigation tools on their hotbar and paying enough attention to press it.

Healing in this game will never be interesting or fun.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

The second tier wasn't even a healer check, it was a mitigation check, which meant that healers had to hope DPS players had their mitigation tools on their hotbar and paying enough attention to press it.

Healing in this game will never be interesting or fun.

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This was the problem with abyssos, the DOT busters and the DOT raidwides specifically created a situation where if everyone didn’t contribute mitigation then the DOT’s would just murder the party but the situation “looked” like it was the healers fault for not healing enough rather than being the fault of the tanks/DPS for not pressing their mitigation buttons

No tank I don’t want to sit there and cast succor 7 times till the DOT wears off (if we could even survive with me spamming succor) because you forgot to press reprise and the DNC forgot to cast shield samba

It was a tier that just brought to light very strongly that giving so much mitigation to the DPS who refuse to press it just feels like crap as a healer

The prospect of healing kits getting progressively more bloated with defensive/healing cooldowns while largely refusing to make them actually feel necessary in lower difficulty does not particularly excite me.

Heal/mitigation checks like Harrowing Hell and the soft enrage on Zeromus should really be par for the course, not exceptions to norm.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This was the problem with abyssos, the DOT busters and the DOT raidwides specifically created a situation where if everyone didn’t contribute mitigation then the DOT’s would just murder the party but the situation “looked” like it was the healers fault for not healing enough rather than being the fault of the tanks/DPS for not pressing their mitigation buttons

No tank I don’t want to sit there and cast succor 7 times till the DOT wears off (if we could even survive with me spamming succor) because you forgot to press reprise and the DNC forgot to cast shield samba

It was a tier that just brought to light very strongly that giving so much mitigation to the DPS who refuse to press it just feels like crap as a healer

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And yet, we have DPS mains who complain when we ask for Addle and Feint to be removed and returned to healers as Virus and Disable. Can't win either way.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

[…]Heal/mitigation checks like Harrowing Hell and the soft enrage on Zeromus should really be par for the course, not exceptions to norm.

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Not gonna lie, I’m morbidly curious how DF would end up if this were more of the norm.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

And yet, we have DPS mains who complain when we ask for Addle and Feint to be removed and returned to healers as Virus and Disable. Can't win either way.

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Ah yes, the classic “But what if my healer sucks/stressed?? I don’t want my fun to end because they don’t press the mits???”-DPS.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Ah yes, the classic “But what if my healer sucks/stressed?? I don’t want my fun to end because they don’t press the mits???”-DPS.

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Ah yes, obviously the correct solution is for the bosses to apply a 10% damage down to themselves before every mechanic for optimal DPS player fun. :)

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Not gonna lie, I’m morbidly curious how DF would end up if this were more of the norm.

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Assuming we are just talking big damage and not Savage level mechanics thrown in at the same time, I think people would adapt and adjust over time.

Early ARR was 'fine' despite healing requirements in casual content being an order of magnitude more demanding than what we see now.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

And yet, we have DPS mains who complain when we ask for Addle and Feint to be removed and returned to healers as Virus Shell and Disable Protect. Can't win either way.

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FTFY

DPS: "We can't possibly lose these buttons we rarely ever, if ever, press!!"

Part of me believes they got rid of Virus and Disable because they couldn't be bothered to think of anything for whm during that expansion when they went hard on the stormblood lilies there.

Imo it's fun to contribute to mitigation as a DPS. The game shouldn't be designed around people who can't manage even that, and teamwork and reasons to cooperate in a party setting shouldn't be eroded for the sake of willfully bad players either. Healers need more serious and comprehensive help than a single other mitigation to bloat their bars.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Honestly, I really want to know who this current healer design is meant to satisfy. People who want to optimise get shafted by a dull damage kit and a stupid amount of OGCDs to mash so you never have to think about what to use. People who want to heal get shafted by heals being so powerful and damage intake being so low across the majority of the content.

I get so confused when we get people that say they love the current healer design, what's there to love about it? It's a design that shafts everyone and satisfies no one.

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Players who play extremely casually both in time investment and skill level. We have a few posting on the forums themselves talking about how much they love certain healers. In general, it's those players who spam Medica II for every AoE and who throw up needless Succors. They all think they're contributing despite only negating what their co-healer already had going. But so long as the illusion continues, the devs seem happy.

Now I don't think they can that illusion up much longer nor can they keep dumbing down the jobs because it has caused something of a ripple. That being said, they might also not know how to design their way out of the hole they've dug while still retaining that ease of accessibility they've insisted upon. So... I suppose we'll see. I certainly can't say I expect much.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Players who play extremely casually both in time investment and skill level. We have a few posting on the forums themselves talking about how much they love certain healers. In general, it's those players who spam Medica II for every AoE and who throw up needless Succors. They all think they're contributing despite only negating what their co-healer already had going. But so long as the illusion continues, the devs seem happy.

Now I don't think they can that illusion up much longer nor can they keep dumbing down the jobs because it has caused something of a ripple. That being said, they might also not know how to design their way out of the hole they've dug while still retaining that ease of accessibility they've insisted upon. So... I suppose we'll see. I certainly can't say I expect much.

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Maybe it’s just the “semi competent healer” in me but after a while the medica 2 bits get actively frustrating on any healer that’s not SCH because it basically means I’m not even able to do my own job and I’m just relegated to glare bot, sure alliance raid healing isn’t hard but I do like actually being able to heal now and again, when the succor bot is pumping out enough healing for 5 alliances me throwing out any heals is next to pointless

It’s weird that never comes into consideration that the “I’m contributing by casting medica 2 every time the boss casts anything” can actively make the cohealer have less fun

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Players who play extremely casually both in time investment and skill level. We have a few posting on the forums themselves talking about how much they love certain healers. In general, it's those players who spam Medica II for every AoE and who throw up needless Succors. They all think they're contributing despite only negating what their co-healer already had going. But so long as the illusion continues, the devs seem happy.

Now I don't think they can that illusion up much longer nor can they keep dumbing down the jobs because it has caused something of a ripple. That being said, they might also not know how to design their way out of the hole they've dug while still retaining that ease of accessibility they've insisted upon. So... I suppose we'll see. I certainly can't say I expect much.

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Actually, I have a question for you, and I've seen you speak about it a few times before.

Since you've mentioned this "skill discrepancy" and "investment", I fear it's causing some sort of mechanic creep. This is a bit difficult to explain, so feel free to call me out on this, but recently, after I cleared DSR, it seems something has "changed".

What I mean by that is that while jobs themselves are getting absolutely gutted, the exact opposite is happening in mechanics. For people like us, who are pretty familiar with proteans, limit cuts, enums, wild charge etc etc, things are mainly okay.

But I'm getting more and more concerned about the players who either A. Are entirely new and are COMPLETELY blindsided by some of the most insane mechanics and toolboxes we've had yet (I, a bad player, 100% think the last 30% of Stacice is way too hard for what it is, I feel like an absolute goblin,, I didn't even do this tier) or B. Just getting a a bit burned out and tired for having to be 100% plugged in (this is conjecture, I know a TOP group that is going through heavy attrition because of how mentally excruciating it is.). I look at something like A9S or O9S and I think "oh ho ho, how quaint" and now I look at P9S and I'm just like jesus christ, you said there are HOW many ways to instantly kill the entire party for mispositioning? You said this aoe hits HOW hard?

I feel the balance between job difficulty and encounter difficulty is becoming increasingly lopsided to the point where people are just straight up not playing the same game at a fundamental level when the differences and punishments become this increasingly severe and disparate. It's like a difficulty cliff, I'm lucky that I got "ok" in HW and cleared an ultimate here and there, but if you're brand new? I have NO IDEA where these new players would even start to get a grasp on this. I'm not even sure if it's possible to be semi-competent anymore, as you reach the job skill threshold for clearing so quickly, but it's impossible to clear anything without being really consistent on esoteric mechanics. Not saying it's a bad thing, just want to ramble, and it's been on my mind.

Maybe I'm just bad, but, I think I would've preferred harder jobs and easier mechanics. I don't think I've ever been a weak link in my groups, but if you are one, good lord you must feel like trash constantly for killing your friends because you were out of position or you swear the death barrier reached it's grubby little hands out and pulled you in as you were trying to break you 95% arena max distance chain(i hate stacice so much)

Meanwhile average content is just "medica II and everything is literally putting me to sleep in real life"

I'm interested in your opinion.

^im not the person you replied to but I totally agree, the mechanical difficulty has totally gone off the deep end with the last two ultimates and the sacrificing of visual clarity of the difficult mechanics for debuff vomit that just wipes you if you do anything wrong is becoming a massive issue (think of E12S, junction shiva was a masterclass of a mechanic, incredibly difficult, party finder wall but required no debuffs and was immediately visually obvious how to solve, it was just a matter of executing it correctly)

It’s hard now because there is fights like DSR and TOP in the game so if the jobs became more difficult now those fights would become near impossible but I do think they need to tilt the balance back towards job difficulty over mechanical difficulty, for 95% of players besides those who do nothing but raidlog you still spend the majority of time on casual content, we now have 80% of the games entire content be lifeless beige nothingness because of stupidly easy jobs so we can make savage/ultimate mechanically as difficult as possible

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Players who play extremely casually both in time investment and skill level. We have a few posting on the forums themselves talking about how much they love certain healers. In general, it's those players who spam Medica II for every AoE and who throw up needless Succors. They all think they're contributing despite only negating what their co-healer already had going. But so long as the illusion continues, the devs seem happy.

Now I don't think they can that illusion up much longer nor can they keep dumbing down the jobs because it has caused something of a ripple. That being said, they might also not know how to design their way out of the hole they've dug while still retaining that ease of accessibility they've insisted upon. So... I suppose we'll see. I certainly can't say I expect much.

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The sad fact is that the target audiance has changed and the new players mostly like or don't care about braindead design and for every vet or player who wants better designed combat there is 2 players who just want to afk and run throught stuff without thinking anything.
I'v come to the realisation that most of the people that played before shb and want better class gameplay have migrated to wow because that seems to be the last bastion of more interesting design.
This same has happened to swtor and is happening in GW2 atm btw so these changes are by design and are aimed at shi77ers and raiders who think they should be able to pick up a new job in 1 minute and can flex to any job so that some cry baby doesn't need to actually learn anything.
Good class design died in sb and it will prolly never come back.
Also everything they announced in DT looks interesting but we have seen how half baked some of the stuff they do can be. So before we get to see actual meat on the bones of the product i would take everything they say with a load of salt.

Well let's all go repopulate FF XI then

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Originally Posted by Solakor

The sad fact is that the target audiance has changed and the new players mostly like or don't care about braindead design and for every vet or player who wants better designed combat there is 2 players who just want to afk and run throught stuff without thinking anything.
I'v come to the realisation that most of the people that played before shb and want better class gameplay have migrated to wow because that seems to be the last bastion of more interesting design.
This same has happened to swtor and is happening in GW2 atm btw so these changes are by design and are aimed at shi77ers and raiders who think they should be able to pick up a new job in 1 minute and can flex to any job so that some cry baby doesn't need to actually learn anything.
Good class design died in sb and it will prolly never come back.
Also everything they announced in DT looks interesting but we have seen how half baked some of the stuff they do can be. So before we get to see actual meat on the bones of the product i would take everything they say with a load of salt.

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I firmly stand by the belief that most players don't really care either way. As long as things aren't punishing, most players will be pretty content with pretty much whatever. Adding in a higher frequency of generally weaker damage taken in normal content and expanding on DPS tools within a reasonable margin will probably have no effect on the vast majority of players.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I firmly stand by the belief that most players don't really care either way. As long as things aren't punishing, most players will be pretty content with pretty much whatever. Adding in a higher frequency of generally weaker damage taken in normal content and expanding on DPS tools within a reasonable margin will probably have no effect on the vast majority of players.

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While it certainly wouldn’t revolutionise anything we have to acknowledge there is must be a reason why healing is so singularly unpopular in this game, I don’t think attempting changes to try to figure out why is necessarily a bad thing

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

While it certainly wouldn’t revolutionise anything we have to acknowledge there is must be a reason why healing is so singularly unpopular in this game, I don’t think attempting changes to try to figure out why is necessarily a bad thing

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Because there is nothing particularly engaging about it, you spend most of your time DPSing with the singular spell you have for it without ever really working towards something. DPS and even tanks I believe have some kind of burst phase that you are using your rotation to build towards, even if it's all on a 2 minute timer now. As a healer you have none of this, just DPS spam while using your oGCD kit to heal whatever there is.

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Originally Posted by Solakor

The sad fact is that the target audiance has changed and the new players mostly like or don't care about braindead design and for every vet or player who wants better designed combat there is 2 players who just want to afk and run throught stuff without thinking anything.
I'v come to the realisation that most of the people that played before shb and want better class gameplay have migrated to wow because that seems to be the last bastion of more interesting design.
This same has happened to swtor and is happening in GW2 atm btw so these changes are by design and are aimed at shi77ers and raiders who think they should be able to pick up a new job in 1 minute and can flex to any job so that some cry baby doesn't need to actually learn anything.
Good class design died in sb and it will prolly never come back.
Also everything they announced in DT looks interesting but we have seen how half baked some of the stuff they do can be. So before we get to see actual meat on the bones of the product i would take everything they say with a load of salt.

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I don't really know what to do as a player right now. FFXIV power creep happened and things broke basically around the point everyone hit 630+. But then to address it they made choices that were not really something most people were a fan of. The feedback was 6.0-> 6.2 healing is too easy, 6.2 -> 6.3 healing is too hard (bleeds and body checks), 6.4 -> 6.5 healing is a combination of easy and frustrating, probably because of the excessive body checks forcing so many restarts on hard fights and then the amount of clutch moments people have to just insta rez a guy before a mechanic goes off. And to be fair a lot of people probably stopped playing anyway because there was a huge drop in even the savage running community around 6.3. Healer shortages got extremely bad and then with 6.4 I think most people who stuck through ended up taking a break or just broke up before clearing the final fight.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

While it certainly wouldn’t revolutionise anything we have to acknowledge there is must be a reason why healing is so singularly unpopular in this game, I don’t think attempting changes to try to figure out why is necessarily a bad thing

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That's kind of what I mean. Most FFXIV players are not here for the intricacies of the combat system. They're here for the story and the surface-level gameplay. As long as the basic performance requirements of a job are not too punishing, there isn't much of a concern. And if there are a few more attacks that look or feel cool to use, then that's probably a plus in a lot of players' eyes. Seraph Strike and Afflatus Purgation are well-liked.