Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We could remove the cooldown from TBN, but then its ability to be used against two different TBs only 10-12 seconds apart, without even needing careful pre-popping for the first, would mean both reduced skill ceiling and TBN having to be tuned more around the extremes of what it can do. I'm not sure what, if anything, that would improve, either.

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Ignoring that that's something PLD can do already... fairly certain they weren't implying removing the CD (low) from TBN.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Ignoring that that's something PLD can do already... fairly certain they weren't implying removing the CD (low) from TBN.

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Removing the MP cost is the FAR more problematic, for reasons that have been covered several times by now (in either removing any unique interactions from TBN and forcing a longer cooldown, as the threat of no MP refund is what really constrains its timing, or forcing the job to be balanced around n TBN pops per minute), which is why I went with the less destructive (though still not necessarily positive) change.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Removing the MP cost is the FAR more problematic, for reasons that have been covered several times by now (in either removing any unique interactions from TBN and forcing a longer cooldown, as the threat of no MP refund is what really constrains its timing, or forcing the job to be balanced around n TBN pops per minute), which is why I went with the less destructive (though still not necessarily positive) change.

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Which is understandable, but in the event of a rework and a choice forced between TBN losing its Dark Arts "counterattack" to be freed of its MP cost and balanced properly against other on-demands versus remaining as-is with its primary defensive skill weighed against two attacks, the fact it keeps coming up seems to mean most would be happier with the former.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Which is understandable, but in the event of a rework and a choice forced between TBN losing its Dark Arts interaction to be freed of its MP cost and balanced properly against other on-demands versus remaining as-is with its primary defensive skill weighed against two attacks, the fact it keeps coming up seems to mean most would be happier with the former.

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I don't know why you keep trying to sell this idea. The MP cost constrains its available timings, keeping it more in line per average minute with the likes of other on-demands despite the added flexibility, but TBN is not, unless used poorly, weighed against Edge/Flood.

In fact, it carries a potency advantage once per raid buff cycle specifically because of that MP cost, as you can essentially push the Edge/Flood's MP cost to earlier -- where it prevents MP overcapping -- while allowing the damage itself to be dropped later, into raid buffs.

Just get level the job and this much quickly becomes apparent. Even in normal mode content, there is virtually zero risk of TBN not popping at any point that wouldn't also be a waste of any other on-demand (save for Nascent, as it just doesn't give a damn when damage is incoming since some 90+% of its value is from healing). In practice, TBN's MP cost is a subtle constraint (though with a decent knowledge requirement in dungeons), with a commensurate subtle advantage available to it -- no more.

You aren't choosing to use TBN over Edge/Flood. At most, you might choose to use TBN when you would barely have taken damage anyways for... reasons? But it's a matter of choosing to use it when no other on-demand would likely bother (if even available), holding it instead for the next actual spike of damage or not doing that -- choosing between a fluff TBN and a solid one, not between TBN and Edge/Flood.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't know why you keep trying to sell this idea.

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And I don't know why you are trying to have it both ways of saying

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

the threat of no MP refund is what really constrains its timing

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while also using the catch-all that the refund justifies it having a cost.

From what I see, from a design perspective, the fact that we're always holding a big portion of our MP back in the event of needing TBN constrains our already over-simplified rotation. It being cost-neutral isn't the same as it being free.
And for what? The flavor of a "counter"attack that we could have cast anyway, because not having such ability would be a detriment to our damage output if we're not the main tank?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

From what I see, from a design perspective, the fact that we're always holding a big portion of our MP back in the event of needing TBN constrains our already over-simplified rotation.

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You don't need to hold a portion of your MP for TBNs, everything can be planned with maths in 14, some people use TBN just to add extra Edge/Flood for the raid buffs.

TBN without the MP cost and cooldown kept the same is broken OP.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

And I don't know why you are trying to have it both ways of saying

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Because it constrains usage subtly, in a way that'd keep us from prepopping for TB1 to then eat up all we can for 8s just some (15-prepop time) seconds later and still have it available again for yet another TB before anyone else would have access to their on-demand. Instead, we get particular bonus opportunities, but not so limitlessly as to require that TBN be tuned down. The CD and MP cost together keep it flexible without making it OP.

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From what I see, from a design perspective, the fact that we're always holding a big portion of our MP back in the event of needing TBN constrains our already over-simplified rotation.

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If it's oversimplified, then the last thing it needs is even fewer constraints, uniqueness, or elements of complexity.

Moreover, it's hardly some huge portion of resource; it consumes (ultimately, shifts the timing of) just 1 of 3.33 charges of Flood/Edge.

No, being ultimately cost-neutral isn't the same as being directly free, but for any Edge/DA you're unable to spend within the raids buffs themselves due to unfortunate TB timing, you're effectively able to spend another Edge/Flood that would otherwise have been used outside of buffs just to prevent overcapping within the next raid buff cycle. Yes, that's not immediately free, and it's good that it's not, but your concern has already been addressed, making it free-in-effect even in that rare scenario, so long as there are another 2 minutes within the given fight.

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And for what? The flavor of a "counter"attack that we could have cast anyway

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No. It's for its ability to be as flexible as it is. That's it.

The DA mechanic is what can deal with your concern of a lost Edge/Flood within raid buffs without bringing in the issues of it being directly free. (Should it be allowed to stack? Probably not, if to be perfectly balanced. Should it only use the DA if you're under X MP? Yeah, that would probably be a good change, as not to waste a DA's benefits in abnormal circumstances (though abnormal they would have to be for this to form a concern). But it's not there just as a counterattack gimmick.)

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Originally Posted by Undeadfire

TBN without the MP cost and cooldown kept the same is broken OP.

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Nobody's going to argue for it to have a 15 sec CD and be free. At worst I've only ever seen requests to go up to 25 sec in lieu of MP/DA, like WAR and GNB's.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If it's oversimplified, then the last thing it needs is even fewer constraints, uniqueness, or elements of complexity.

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True, but from a design perspective, the idea of having any new MP abilities, or reworking the properties of the ones we have, must be constrained against the value of TBN and its potential interactions on the same resource.

We cannot, for instance, discuss having new skills that cost more/less MP, altering our MP gain abilities like Blood Weapon, or reducing the MP costs of Flood/Edge without that affecting the economy of TBN. We cannot discuss putting AD on an MP system (as you have in the past) without discussing if it's affected by DA/DS. We can't discuss situational alternatives to TBN (like old RI vs NF, or Cover vs Intervention) without discussing how to implement a DA-like aspect or make up for not having one.

Under the current system, we're locked into only having Edge/Flood on MP.

For a skill that doesn't compete for its resource, we're constrained to base everything in that resource around it.

TBN has been treated as a tool to prevent mp over cap rather than being treated as a mitigation is what went wrong. You're forced to use a mitigation even if you don't really need a mitigation just to prevent the cap and it is more like an extra task because there is no real reward. It is the same with tied a damage with healing and make a certain attack button get treated as a heal action rather than an attack action.
It is also not a display of skill since a tank buster is scripted and that mean your're also scripted and dictated, led to believe that you accomplish something. The 4s window of the short cooldown of other tank at least take more effort to timing.

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Originally Posted by The_User

TBN has been treated as a tool to prevent mp over cap rather than being treated as a mitigation is what went wrong.

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... Huh? You have that completely backwards, we have Edge/Flood to prevent overcapping.

To use TBN if you or your target aren't taking heavy enough damage to fully absorb it is inherently a waste.

TBN has been used in the opener when the raid buff is delayed so you don't over cap

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Which is understandable, but in the event of a rework and a choice forced between TBN losing its Dark Arts "counterattack" to be freed of its MP cost and balanced properly against other on-demands versus remaining as-is with its primary defensive skill weighed against two attacks, the fact it keeps coming up seems to mean most would be happier with the former.

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I think TBN should be put to two charges, just like oblation and its cd increased to justify the removal of MP cost. Get rid of dark arts and either bring it back in 7.0 or just get rid of it. It's just painful to see what DA has become after its initial offering in 3.0. It would give it more utility and not be tied to your dps. Being able to TBN both tanks for a shared tankbuster sounds pretty good. It still a 25% HP shield but it has flexibility and multiple uses.

They could even keep the MP return on tbn pop, but obviously adjusted so using TBN is no longer dps neutral and you won't feel so bad if it doesn't pop since it cost you nothing. However, if it does pop you get some MP as a reward to spam shadows more. Though with this utility they will need to buff WAR and PLD more to put it in line with how TBN is more useful now. A tank's main appeal should not be how much damage it deals but how much damage it can negate (which in turn means your healers can dps more)

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

True, but from a design perspective, the idea of having any new MP abilities, or reworking the properties of the ones we have, must be constrained against the value of TBN and its potential interactions on the same resource.

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Yes, but so what?

We cannot usefully discuss ANY central skill's resource (be it time, weave-gap, shared CDs, or job-specific resources) without also considering the impacts upon that skill. That's not unique.

The same case would have to be made for Kaiten and Gyoten vs. Shinten, Reprise vs. RDM's melee combo, (previously) Onslaught vs. Fell Cleave, Bloodletter vs. Perfect Pitch vs. average Bard non-DoT WS ppgcd, etc., etc.

That doesn't mean we suddenly can't balance or add onto their kits; it just means we have to have a modicum of intelligence in doing so. Not every skill has to go the way of --barring time thus spent-- complete independence.

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We cannot... discuss... altering our MP gain abilities like Blood Weapon, or reducing the MP costs of Flood/Edge without that affecting the economy of TBN.

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Yes, greatly changing MP/gauge generation would increase or decrease the punishment of not leaving a TBN's worth of MP/gauge (i.e., cause it take more or less time to get back to X MP after having overspent), but it would do nothing to proper play.

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We cannot, for instance, discuss having new skills that cost more/less MP... [or] putting AD on an MP system (as you have in the past) without discussing if it's affected by DA/DS.

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You might as well say that PLD can't get any more spells specifically because Requiescat only affects the damage of Holy Circle and Holy Spirit. DA affects only Edge/Flood at present because those are the only skills presently tied to MP.

Current DA in practice: Reduces the cost of your following MP-spenders other than TBN by a total of <TBN's MP cost>.

It merely happens that there are only two MP spenders at present, each of which can only cost 3k MP, the same as TBN.

A DA mechanic that'd suit whatever you need: Reduces the cost of your following MP-spenders other than TBN by a total of <TBN's MP cost>.

Allowing for more varied MP costs takes no more than switching DA from "next spender free" to "next X-gauge's-worth of spending free". We've already seen changes similar to that in other jobs once a reason for that small extra layer of precision was added. That DA currently only affected Edge/Flood does not mean it must only ever affect Edge/Flood. It just means that there is at present nothing else for it to affect.

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Under the current system, we're locked into only having Edge/Flood on MP.

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No. No, we are not. There is currently NOTHING ELSE on MP. Given there is currently NOTHING ELSE to spend MP, DA only affects what's on MP (Edge/Flood). That does not mean it can only ever affect what is currently on MP.

Unless you're insisting that TBN was designed from the start to purposely (dis)favor certain currently inexistant spenders over (or, in favor of) others, there is no reason to think they'd use new ability additions to add complexity (works on this but not that) to TBN. Far more likely, we'd simply have its gameplay affects translated over by simply, in essence, modernizing its language and no longer shortcutting its procedure to take advantage of very limited surroundings.

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We can't discuss situational alternatives to TBN (like old RI vs NF, or Cover vs Intervention) without discussing how to implement a DA-like aspect or make up for not having one.

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Yes, that's how alternatives work. They take into account the full power of whatever they're competing against. What is shocking about this? You already have to do this for every other alternative. Why would it suddenly be so bad that you have to do this for TBN, just as you would for anything else?

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Originally Posted by The_User

TBN has been used in the opener when the raid buff is delayed so you don't over cap

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....no?
it's to fish for a proc for a free Edge/Flood in burst...

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

....no?
it's to fish for a proc for a free Edge/Flood in burst...

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No, TBN is there to make you feel like you have something interesting to do.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

No, TBN is there to make you feel like you have something interesting to do.

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I already have something interesting to do:
not level DRK and play literally any other job until DRK is reworked.
But I get what you mean. I'm not gonna make any arguments for TBN or against it, because *everyone* has their own two cents to add on it. Just gonna wait for the devs to unscrew their heads and fix the broken tank.

"for a free Edge/Flood in burst" see? it wasn't because you really need a mitigation. TBN prepull isn't because there is gonna be a tank buster coming during 6s window after the pull. If the raid buff take 4-5 gcd before it begin then you will generate more than 3000 MP because Syphon Strike+Blood Weapon+natural mp regen and that mean 1 EOS before raid buff wasn't enough to kept you from over cap.

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

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Originally Posted by Jirah

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

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I'd prefer stalwart soul evolving into Tar Pit, but i support this idea

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Originally Posted by Jirah

who remembers Tar pit? can DRK get that at like 45 as a 1-2 from Unleash? Then have it evolve into stalwart soul?

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No one because it was never actually on pve DRK
but it would be cool just to replace stalwart soul in general and carnal chill with unmend

cut abilities for reference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXMTLM19JZw

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

You forgot to mention how DRK needs to push 3 off GCDs to mitigate ( Dark Mind OR Rampart / Shadow Wall + TBN + Oblation ) to mitigate. While the other's use 2 buttons usually combining their short CD mitigation and the 30% or 20%.
Also the shield tank design is not bad, but what about more shields - rather than just one?

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Probably because shield mitigation sucks against multiple targets. I think the idea is that TBN is sort of like warrior's self heal button, but if that is the case you'd think they would have a defense cooldown that gives bonus defense plus a short duration percentage shield.

Also going to mention DRK is my favorite tank in aesthetics, but feels like the worst tank to play right now even over gunbreaker, which has some interesting ping requirements.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Probably because shield mitigation sucks against multiple targets. I think the idea is that TBN is sort of like warrior's self heal button, but if that is the case you'd think they would have a defense cooldown that gives bonus defense plus a short duration percentage shield.

Also going to mention DRK is my favorite tank in aesthetics, but feels like the worst tank to play right now even over gunbreaker, which has some interesting ping requirements.

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I pray for the day that it will be feasible for me to go back to maining DRK over GNB.

I really hope the job can be reworked to bring back its core identity. Personally, if I were in charge of design, I'd bring back Dark Arts but use it more like Eukrasia where it alters the effect of several abilities rather than just being a damage boost. For example:

Dark Arts TBN could change it to a Mitigation + Heal ability
Dark Arts Edge of Shadow could restore MP instead of spend it to extend darkside

I'd also bring back Sole Surivor and blood price, and ditch the Diet Warrior abilities and gauge entirely - I hate juggling so many resources when I'm already trying to balance DPS, positioning, and mitigation. Make Darkside an MP-draining passive again, and make MP management the job identity again. This could even allow for new design like making Living Shadow work similar to Black Mage's Polyglot, say, where you could get the ability to use it if you maintained darkside without dropping for 30 seconds, or whatever. There's so much good design potential here and NONE of it is being pursued.


EDIT:

I went back and read the previous debate over TBN and I'll say this: I don't do savage stuff often, I play mostly the adventure foray stuff and lower level things for the pure fun of it. So let me say with no reservations that Dark Knight's problems have nothing to do with the math, damage, balance, etc - the job simply feels bad to play. This isn't purely subjective, either - there are simple realities of human psychology that mean that seeing every other short tank CD get better while TBN remains the same feels like it's getting worse. Being one of the only tanks with a type-specific damage mit CD feels annoying and unintuitive. Having your shield drop two seconds before you soak enough damage for the proc feels like you wasted it. Every single thing about Dark Knight feels like I'm barely keeping my head above water, when playing the same content as any other tank feels like a walk in the park. There is more to job design than numbers, and the lack of synergy between the different elements of Dark Knight's kit (apart from bits that are directly tied together arbitrarily like TBN and Edge/Flood) makes the entire experience feel like a chore rather than - I don't know, a game? Something which I do for fun? Call it a hunch.

Can they just delete Living Shadow and make room for a more interesting ability

Would you like to have a hard hitting weaponskill finisher instead of Living Shadow?

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Originally Posted by The_User

Would you like to have a hard hitting weaponskill finisher instead of Living Shadow?

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Yes, scourge preferrably. It doesn't even have to be a dot, but a combo starter with Scourge (similar to confiteor), that only gets heavier after Blood Weapon ends would be amazing. Ending it with scourge with a meaty build up that includes power slash would also be great. imagine if we got (old)Delirium -> power slash -> Scourge and maybe an ultimate attack after

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Originally Posted by The_User

Would you like to have a hard hitting weaponskill finisher instead of Living Shadow?

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Don't know what I'd replace it with but unless they change it to make it more interactive, I'd rather they just get rid of it. I'd also rather they don't try to make it more interactive given previous pet jank plus I'd rather that not be one of DRK's gimmicks

Would you like a move like this?

https://i.imgur.com/WQDiSef.gif

but with a big dark wave instead of a phoenix


or maybe like this?

https://i.imgur.com/shPJ6jP.gif

The Aesthetics the class has already work fine and having big super flashy finishers like genshin impact doesn't sound like a good idea given we already had that one problem with red mages. DRK just has too many cooldown abilities since it still needs to dedicate space to its role. Tanks still have more space for dps skills than the healers though. Healers have a LOT of role specific skills that don't involve damage while tanks have their mitigation skills and support skills they need to have space for.

But I mean, it's clear DRK hasn't had anything major done to it likely because they had to move people to work on reaper, sage, and summoner. It's got all sorts of weird inconsistencies in the leveling and the skills it has.

What's wrong with a horizon slash that release a wave of darkness?

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Originally Posted by The_User

What's wrong with a horizon slash that release a wave of darkness?

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Because it would just be flood 3 instead of flood 2(shadowbringer). Shadowbringer is already underwhelming because the animation is lackluster, doing it that way would make the only difference is that it would be likely a front aoe (conal likely) instead of a line aoe.

Unless they make it different somehow, I would love to go back to black/red instead of purple

So the problem is just because of a color? maybe give papachin a call

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Originally Posted by The_User

So the problem is just because of a color? maybe give papachin a call

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No? did you read all of what I said? I have fun with plenty of other jobs that aren't black/red animation colored. I don't mind the purple but it doesn't really fit the job as good as black/red, at least imo.

The problem is the jobs design itself is flawed, it has been. It doesn't feel unique and the animations feel weightless and unimpactful in the midst of it's identity crisis. I don't need to list all of the problems because there's an endless amount of people who have listed them myself included. The attack you suggested wouldn't fix the issue, it would just be another big hit aoe like Shadowbringer, just not a line aoe.

And what give you the idea that I try to fix everything with just this 1 attack?





It just an option for a substitute of Living Shadow

I wish Delirium instead of 3 stacks of blood spiller was a 3 part combo that included the animations of Scourage, Dark Arts Dark Passenger, and a new 3 hit version of Carve and Spit. That would feel alot better than 3 bloodspillers.

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Originally Posted by The_User

And what give you the idea that I try to fix everything with just this 1 attack?





It just an option for a substitute of Living Shadow

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That's not what I tried to say, so sorry if that was misunderstood.

I still stand by what I said though, I don't think it would be a good replacement, this is beating a dead horse since I've said this so many times before, but I would really just rather have Scourge instead of living shadow, and have to use it maybe every 30s, It gives another thing to do outside of your burst phases, granted not by much, but it's something you'll actually have to pay attention to instead of pop it and never have to think about it until it's about to come of cooldown after 2 minutes

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Originally Posted by Derio

I wish Delirium instead of 3 stacks of blood spiller was a 3 part combo that included the animations of Scourage, Dark Arts Dark Passenger, and a new 3 hit version of Carve and Spit. That would feel alot better than 3 bloodspillers.

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This, though I think I would prefer Power slash->Scourge, and then a new big hit single target ability. Or make Scourge the last hit make old Delirium the first hit. Which would make it more like: Delirium->Power Slash->new Carve and Spit version->Scourge (C&S upgrade can be changed with Scourge depending on how the animation feels imo)

I tried all that animations and let me tell you this : It is even underwhelming than Gnashing Fang combo without a weaving.
The first time you get to use it after a long time it feel great, but then, You start to noticed that it wasn't impactful like in the video.
It lack a hard hitting sound effect and most importantly it doesn't have a screen shake.

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Originally Posted by The_User

And what give you the idea that I try to fix everything with just this 1 attack?





It just an option for a substitute of Living Shadow

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1 skill will not fix DRK.
A new finisher will not improve DRK's gameplay.
Flashy animations will not hide it's shoddy identity any more.

DRK's gameplay needs a complete refocusing. It shouldn't be gated out of a full AoE suite until 76. Its resources shouldn't just be copy-pasted from other jobs. It's focus on "spending MP and blood" should feel rewarding to use. It's two resources need more interplay and connection. Living dead is inarguably the worst invuln in the game, being the shortest effective duration and having a punishment in it's effect. The "upgrades" it gets in Endwalker are only upgrades by virtue of being new skills it obtains this expansion; only two of which are tangible new skills seeing as Salt and Darkness is just a tack-on for Salted Earth (itself IMO being further nerfed again by not being able to be placed anywhere). Most of the feedback given on this forum's been ignored for years now.

That it does the most damage for now is the weakest crutch holding it up right now. Guarantee if in a future patch the other tanks get their damage buffed, DRK numbers will only plummet more. It's already the least played tank according to a certain site that tracks uploaded clears of end-game content.

Technically, DRKs damage is higher on tanks because it is broken. It's got as many OGCDs to weave in combat as a dragoon and it has to manage tank cooldowns somehow on top of all the GCDs.