#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Well, there is one thing that is for certain: Every healer that strikes only increases the chance that you get a donut healer in your party. Apparently they are a dime a dozen according to you. If you're a non-tank, make sure not to stand in the bad.

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I suspect a lot of the healers striking are already donuts to begin with. You yourself, the creator of this thread, have admitted to not doing much higher-end content. Frankly, your opinion is completely irrelevant because of that. You'd see that roles actually matter more in harder content if you bothered to do it. Sure, ucob was cleared with 8 tanks. Sure, top was cleared without any healers. Sure, tea was cleared with 2 tanks, 5 white mages and a dragoon. But that's not the norm. Nobody is actually doing that because it's optimal, they're doing it for fun. To see if they can actually do it.

Casual content is casual content. For better or worse, it's meant to be cleared by anybody at any skill level. This is unfortunate in my opinion because people can get to max level and still have exactly 0 idea what they're doing. Just look at most mentors for proof of this. Warriors, in dungeons, are awesome. They can do the entire thing no problem. Warriors, in trials, are still awesome, but only to a certain extent. Warriors, in normal raids, are still awesome, but only to a certain extent. When you get up to the extreme level, the savage level, the ultimate level, the sustain of tanks (and dps) matters less and less because the fights are mechanically difficult, not healing difficult. Healers matter most, in my opinion, in prog, when everybody's still learning and making mistakes. That part is where healers can shine with their improvisation skills.

Content in this game is a puzzle. It might be a difficult puzzle to figure out, but once you do, that's it. It's solved. This means that once you've got it down, tanks will always know where they're putting their mits, healers will always know where they're putting their heals, dps will always know where they're putting their mits, when they're using their burst, etc. etc. That's just how it is. So instead of making healer good, or making tanks worse, there would need to be a complete overhaul of the battle system to make it less puzzle-like. I'm far from the first person to have this idea. I genuinely don't think this is ever going to happen. Again, for better or for worse, the game's gotten easier over the years and it's now "acceptable" now more than ever to be bad.

I'm sure just about every strike has been told it's irrelevant, only going to fall by the wayside of history, result in "replacements" of better behaving individuals (as though wishing for fans of a broken system is a noble or good thing) etc. Well wishers are a strange bunch.

I will say this-- if the healing strike gets ignored, then SE should be prepared to abandon roles. There's simply no point when omni jobs already exist-- they've already made them. So just make all jobs equal parts dps, healing, mitigation and be done with it. Let people dive into the playstyle they prefer on any job. Just destroy what FF is since they have already done it. Or better put-- stop piddling around and just finish the job already.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I suspect a lot of the healers striking are already donuts to begin with. You yourself, the creator of this thread, have admitted to not doing much higher-end content. Frankly, your opinion is completely irrelevant because of that. You'd see that roles actually matter more in harder content if you bothered to do it.

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Now now, no need to be an elitist about this, because that's such an ugly stance to take, and you've already hit yourself with quite the shovel. People are allowed to their opinions about a videogame, and as you can see (if you'd taken the time to look), there're more players from all kinds of skill-levels that have an issue with the current healer role. And yes, believe it or not, some have completed Savage tiers and Ultimates. Gasp!

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Originally Posted by Pandurah

Now now, no need to be an elitist about this, because that's such an ugly stance to take, and you've already hit yourself with quite the shovel. People are allowed to their opinions about a videogame, and as you can see (if you'd taken the time to look), there're more players from all kinds of skill-levels that have an issue with the current healer role. And yes, believe it or not, some have completed Savage tiers and Ultimates. Gasp!

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I mean it's true. Why listen to people who don't know what they're talking about?

Oh, and just so we're clear, I'm aware there are people in here who have cleared higher end content. I'm much more receptive to hearing what they have to say considering they've actually, y'know, played the class in more difficult content, as opposed to the casual who forgets they have a dot.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I mean it's true. Why listen to people who don't know what they're talking about?

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I repeat: there're more players from all kinds of skill-levels that have an issue with the current healer role. And yes, believe it or not, some have completed Savage tiers and Ultimates. Gasp!

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Originally Posted by Pandurah

Now now, no need to be an elitist about this, because that's such an ugly stance to take, and you've already hit yourself with quite the shovel. People are allowed to their opinions about a videogame, and as you can see (if you'd taken the time to look), there're more players from all kinds of skill-levels that have an issue with the current healer role. And yes, believe it or not, some have completed Savage tiers and Ultimates. Gasp!

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If anything, I think it's more telling that there's players not only of varying skill levels, but also who have started at different times during FFXIV's life span. From casual to hardcore raider, from 1.0 legacy players to EW beginners, a lot of people see healer design as a problem. It's not just a raider thing that casuals don't care about or vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

"After invasively hunting-through people's profiles and Achievements, and without considering people who post on alt accounts to avoid running afoul of psychopaths who stalk-through people's profiles and Achievements, I have determined that very few people in this thread have cleared Dragonsong's Reprise Ultimate, therefore, your desire for healing change is unfounded. Rather than protesting, I recommend that you simply begin healing on-patch Ultimates through Party Finder."

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This is exactly why I use an alt as a display character.

People who stalk your profiles are those who realise they cannot challenge your stance so they stalk your stuff to try and pull authority over you and discredit your argument.

Having people out themselves in that way is one of the best reasons to use a display alt.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I mean it's true. Why listen to people who don't know what they're talking about?

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What is the point of a game where the majority of the content is imbalanced, nonsensical, and boring? All so your tiny % of sweaty parsers (because let's be real, it's not just high end players) can have your way? Answer me that.

I understand the necessity of tuning for Ultimates. However they are a tiny % of the game. That's the simple reality. What about the rest of the game making sense?

I haven't seen one good response for example, why it's ok for a tank to solo down a boss at 80% health alone. I've been told it's because "they're too angry to die", which is funny and all, but it's just not balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I mean it's true. Why listen to people who don't know what they're talking about?

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I've healed a couple of savage fights back in ShB, it still sucked and I only stuck to the occasional heal in roulettes when I couldn't be bothered to wait in queues. I know what I found fun back in SB, your elitism is just an attempt to gaslight people that they don't know what they're talking about and be dismissive rather than listening to any concerns that they may have.

The inverse has also been a massive concern; experienced healers get dismissed because poor Johnny Casual who struggles to press Medica won't be able to clear if we increase the healing requirements, or he might drop the role if he has 1 extra DPS spell to contend with.

Stop dismissing people because of your own ego.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

So for those who want cleric stance back, you really don't.

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Man, come on, don't J Allen Brack me.

Yep, I'll play the "villain" on this topic — I want Cleric Stance back. No caveats, no buts. If the developers suddenly put Cleric Stance right back in the game, exactly as it was in ARR/HW, it would not bother me at all.

I liked Cleric Stance. I thought it made healing in FFXIV more fun.

I personally feel like Cleric Stance is being cartoonishly-vilified by most of FFXIV's community, now that it's all far-away and in hindsight.

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I was playing in the Cleric Stance era, and in my own experiences, Cleric just wasn't that big of a problem. Dungeons, Normal Raids, and Alliance Raids didn't constantly wipe because Healers were in Cleric. If someone wasn't feeling confident about DPSing, or the encounter seemed too risky / unfamiliar / spicy, then Healers would just... stay out of Cleric.

There's a tendency to exaggerate and portray "less dedicated" / "more casual" players as complete idiots who can't do anything correct, but in my actual experiences, most people playing Healers had no problem utilising Cleric correctly. And if someone wasn't using Cleric correctly, it was almost-invariably due to being too cautious, and not entering Cleric as much as they could have. Which didn't even feel that bad back then, because Healing from Healers actually mattered a lot more, so if your Healer was being cautious, it was like... "OK, no problem, that's fine, just keep the HP bars up".

And I also think that it's overexaggerated that Healers were being bullied about Cleric uptime or something. I cannot personally remember a single moment in any content outside Savage and maybe some EXs when I ever saw anyone even care whether one or more Healers were in Cleric or not, as long as the Party wasn't wiping to healable damage.

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Actually, thinking about it now, Cleric Stance was one of the first things about FFXIV that stuck-out to me as a new player. It was interesting and a new sort of mechanic to me, and it made Healing actually work differently from how it felt in other MMOs.

In fact, FFXIV used to be full of strange and interesting differences in its design and play-feel like that, and it was a large part of what made me become interested in the game past the free trial, and stay-on as a dedicated player.

The successive changes that Mr. Yoshida has pushed-for since Stormblood to "broaden appeal" have, for me, served to water-down, genericise, and dilute FFXIV's gameplay design more and more, and at this point, if you put me in a test environment where the player-units had FFXIV's Job mechanics, except everything was reskinned with generic models purchased off an Unreal Engine asset-store, I might be hard-pressed to correctly identify which game I'm even playing.

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As far as the statements about how supposedly-unpleasant it was to have to deal with Cleric, I personally didn't view Cleric as an "inconvenience" — I viewed it as a mechanic.

A mechanic that was just like any other mechanic that is part of how Jobs and Roles functioned, like Enochian or Blood of the Dragon.

So I just learned how and when to use it. And it felt good to get better at encounters, and become more confident and bold about when to safely enter Cleric to deal some more damage. There was a sense of definite "skill progression" as I repeated encounters more and more, and it also made even Dungeons feel a lot more engaging to learn and practise the mechanics and patterns.

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As for Cleric clock-blocking you from DPSing... I don't know what to say, really.

I mean, I did "switch between DPS and Healing Spells freely", because the cooldown on Cleric was 5 seconds, and even in ARR/HW, FFXIV's healing pace was lethargic compared to other games.

So tales of switching to Cleric, and then everyone DYING HORRIBLY AHHHHH because you can't heal because you're strapped in Cleric Jail, seem perplexing and greatly-exaggerated to me.

At worst, you might sweat slightly for ~1 GCD before you just toggled Cleric back off and Cure 2 or Lustrate or something. Maybe burn a Swiftcast if something really weird happened.

Honestly, dancing into Cleric to reapply DOTs, then swapping back out to reapply Regen or something, was an enjoyable rhythm to me. And again, it felt actually-distinct, rather than just "What if we made WoW, but the server responsiveness was really bad?"

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And as for gear and stats... I personally found the INT/MND split interesting.

I liked that different stats actually did different things, and it felt cool to "shift" between Help Mode and Death Mode, even at the numeric level.

There was a tangible power-reward for using that shift intelligently, and it felt cool to gradually watch content clear faster and faster as I became more confident about when to Cleric.

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Actually, I don't even see how Cleric would be a problem with FFXIV's modern design — everything has only become more hyper-scripted and meticulously-plotted. Dedicated EX, Savage, and Ultimate Healers could probably map-out down to the exact GCD exactly when they would toggle Cleric Stance on and off.

Especially because, there is already barely-any need for "spontaneous emergency healing" in current FFXIV, so there would be little risk of being caught inside Cleric at the wrong time, unless you're completely YOLO'ing a Savage floor with no plan whatsoever... which would probably cause you not to succeed anyway, with or without Cleric Stance in the game?

And even if you did "mess up" your Cleric timing, it's just not very common in FFXIV to encounter cases where a maximum possible delay of 5s would actually cause a wipe, because you would both need the timing of incoming damage-waves to be that precise, and also to have activated Cleric literally right before the designated mechanic occurred. Otherwise, you'd have a delay before Healing of less than 5s, because Cleric was already cooling-down by some amount.

To be honest, Cleric's 5s CD is actually incredibly-forgiving in a game that has scripted and paced-out damage as precisely as FFXIV does.

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...So yeah, you're totally welcome to personally dislike Cleric Stance as a mechanic, we all have different play-sensibilities.

But lecturing me about what I "actually want" is... pretty inaccurate, regarding this topic.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I suspect a lot of the healers striking are already donuts to begin with. You yourself, the creator of this thread, have admitted to not doing much higher-end content. Frankly, your opinion is completely irrelevant because of that.

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What a scummy take. So short sited, failing to see that players in the high end who have cleared ultimate fights as well as casuals who haven't even played very long have joined the strike. We're not just one group of people who don't feel catered to. Players from all tiers of play are mad. If you care about the game, and want to see it become better, your opinion should be valued by the dev team.

I'm tired of hearing the argument "Go try harder content, you haven't experienced what REAL healing is like" but then players who have gone and done said content are told "Oh, well, you're just to good at the game, of course this content isn't engaging for you."

We're asking for surprisingly little. It boils down to when there's not a lot of healing to be done, let us do something that's on par with what tanks do when there's no mitigation mechanics. If there is healing to do, let us have fun and unique ways to do said healing.
We'd also like (and i know this is a big ask) if damage was increased enough so that the "bosses" actually had some amount of threat, and increase mob damage just enough so that the tanks can't solo a dungeon that is suppose to be made for 4 people.

If naysayers say it doesn't matter how healing jobs play in casual content, we'll then we can just nerf warrior by making its heal scale of the number of weaponskills used instead of enemies hit. It won't matter if they can't turbo heal in dungeon multi-target situations since it's just dungeons.

I personally don't really care if Cleric Stance returns or not, but I want to point out that Cleric Stance existing actually helped the more casual playerbase.

People viewed the chance of a healer being locked in Cleric Stance when healing was required to be very likely, so many people preferred the healer to not do damage.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

So tales of switching to Cleric, and then everyone DYING HORRIBLY AHHHHH because you can't heal because you're strapped in Cleric Jail, seem perplexing and greatly-exaggerated to me.

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Honestly, this kind of example reads more like a healer timing their Cleric Stance badly, which isn't the fault of the skill but of the player.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

If naysayers say it doesn't matter how healing jobs play in casual content, we'll then we can just nerf warrior by making its heal scale of the number of weaponskills used instead of enemies hit. It won't matter if they can't turbo heal in dungeon multi-target situations since it's just dungeons.

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How will WAR live with only a 1600 cure potency, 30% mitigation and a 400 cure potency shield every 25 seconds?????

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Originally Posted by Oizen

How will WAR live with only a 1600 cure potency, 30% mitigation and a 400 cure potency shield every 25 seconds?????

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Thoughts and prayers.

Actually the WHM might be taking a break, so just thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

-snip-

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I'm glad you've never had the experience of accidentally double clicking Cleric's Stance off and back on again when you needed to heal, that combined with Hallowed Ground delay caused many a wipe back in the day. 5 seconds is a long time when you need to heal now.

Cleric's Stances CD only applied when turning Cleric's Stance on, not when turning it off. I guess you must have done a hotbar swap macro so you didn't need to deal with the possible recast?

And if you don't like how a nerfed warrior would feel in dungeons, so what? It's just dungeons bro. Do savage to feel powerful again bro.

Bring back berserk pacification!

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Originally Posted by Kayokane

Cleric's Stances CD only applied when turning Cleric's Stance on, not when turning it off. I guess you must have done a hotbar swap macro so you didn't need to deal with the possible recast?

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It happened to me a few times when learning, but that's the point of learning. Although, as a SCH main I could pump out % heals with Lustrate (at least in ARR).

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Originally Posted by Kayokane

I'm glad you've never had the experience of accidentally double clicking Cleric's Stance off and back on again when you needed to heal, that combined with Hallowed Ground delay caused many a wipe back in the day. 5 seconds is a long time when you need to heal now.

Cleric's Stances CD only applied when turning Cleric's Stance on, not when turning it off. I guess you must have done a hotbar swap macro so you didn't need to deal with the possible recast?

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You know, I also never experienced a wipe due to that (admittedly, a close call- but that was on me). Am I disputing that it happened? Not at all, however people also die to:

- mistimed/misplaced rescues
- mistimed heals and tank invuls
i could keep going, to be fair, I would not have tossed out Cleric Stance entirely but adjusted it somewhat- however I was able to work with it even as a sprout healer at the time.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

Bring back berserk pacification!

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100% this!

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You know, I also never experienced a wipe due to that (admittedly, a close call- but that was on me). Am I disputing that it happened? Not at all, however people also die to:

- mistimed/misplaced rescues
- mistimed heals and tank invuls
i could keep going, to be fair, I would not have tossed out Cleric Stance entirely but adjusted it somewhat- however I was able to work with it even as a sprout healer at the time.

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I personally would have made Cleric Stance give a % increase to damage and a % decrease to healing, rather then the whole stat swap thing. To make it a bit more intuitive and less punishing if you mess it up.

If cleric stance was brought back i would never turn it off, The other healer can heal ima pump my dps soooo hard

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I mean it's true. Why listen to people who don't know what they're talking about?

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I would almost be willing to bet real money that if this thread was made entirely by savage and ultimate enjoyers you would just deride it as “toxic raiders trying to tell the casual playerbase what they should enjoy”

And I do do savage just for the record, like aravell I just don’t do it on my main any more, I’d be happy to link you anything you want to know about my performance

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Originally Posted by Pandurah

It happened to me a few times when learning, but that's the point of learning. Although, as a SCH main I could pump out % heals with Lustrate (at least in ARR).

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I was always a WHM main but I do miss watching a SCH full dump stacks into the tank because I messed up Cleric's Stance again. Lustrate Lustrate Lustrate Aetherflow Lustrate Lustrate Lustrate, 20% overheal on paper, but damage was still going out :3 SCH players back then were pretty epic considerring how... touchy Eos and Selene could be to control.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I personally would have made Cleric Stance give a % increase to damage and a % decrease to healing

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For Stormblood, Cleric Stance was changed to a cooldown that gave a 5% damage increase for I think 15s with 60s or 90s recast.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You know, I also never experienced a wipe due to that (admittedly, a close call- but that was on me). Am I disputing that it happened? Not at all, however people also die to:

- mistimed/misplaced rescues
- mistimed heals and tank invuls
i could keep going, to be fair, I would not have tossed out Cleric Stance entirely but adjusted it somewhat- however I was able to work with it even as a sprout healer at the time.

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they did adjust it, in Stormblood it turned into a Role Action that gave a 5% damage boost for 15s on a 90s cooldown, honestly I would've been happy if they kept it like that instead of dropping it entirely with the Double DoTs in ShB.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I would almost be willing to bet real money that if this thread was made entirely by savage and ultimate enjoyers you would just deride it as “toxic raiders trying to tell the casual playerbase what they should enjoy”

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The nice thing is that there's much more of a consensus between casual and hardcore healers just both saying it sucks right now. The ones asking for more to heal are unhappy, the ones who like doing damage are unhappy, and they've teamed up because they realise that we can have both of those.

I feel like most of these points have already been addressed ad nauseum in this thread, and you're just going in circles now.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I suspect a lot of the healers striking are already donuts to begin with.

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Statements like this seem risky when they come from someone who seems to have a panic-attack if anyone proposes toning-down a 25s CD Benediction in Dungeon content.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

You yourself, the creator of this thread, have admitted to not doing much higher-end content. Frankly, your opinion is completely irrelevant because of that.

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If someone says, "I think that healing requirements in P10S should be nerfed", and the person also admits that they have never played P10S, that is a valid case to say something like this.

If someone says, "My Job and Role do not feel fun for me to play", then it doesn't matter if the only thing that they play each day is Guildhest Roulette, they are completely-entitled to express their concern.

Jobs and Roles are a fundamental element of how a player experiences this entire game, at all levels and tiers of play. There is nothing wrong with striving to enjoy the gameplay of a Job or Role at all levels and tiers of play.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

You'd see that roles actually matter more in harder content if you bothered to do it.

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Roles matter in harder content, especially for less-organised Parties, but that does not mean that all of those Roles actually feel satisfying or enjoyable to play.

That difference has been addressed extremely-repeatedly here.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

Casual content is casual content. For better or worse, it's meant to be cleared by anybody at any skill level.

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You can only set the floor so low before you don't even have a game any more.

ARR/HW/SB still asked "something" of even the most "casual" content, and I cannot recall experiencing a permeating sentiment of misery or unhappiness. In fact, most of the people that I personally knew were enjoying the game greatly, and looked-forward to playing each day.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

When you get up to the extreme level, the savage level, the ultimate level, the sustain of tanks (and dps) matters less and less because the fights are mechanically difficult, not healing difficult.

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a) There is no reason that they can't be both

b) I think that EX and Savage, especially when poorly-coordinated like PF'ing, actually can have difficult healing, especially if you're not coordinating well with your cohealer, or you don't have a good "map" in your head for what goes where, and end up panicking and over-spending tools unnecessarily at inopportune points.

Or people are just allergic to Feint.

However, as has been addressed repeatedly, part of the problem is that as you become better at EX/Savage, and more precise and skilled with your Healing solutions, and even as the other Players around you become better at the encounter and their own tools, you begin to paradoxically have less and less fun as a Healer... because your only "reward" is pressing Broil more.

This relegates Healers to basically a "public service chore" once content is on clear / farm. And this phenomenon happens even faster in a competent static.

Why should players want to commit themselves to a Role like that? Where you have to look forward to a "downward curve" of briefly finding your Role interesting, followed by months of what feels like a dreary chore?

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

Content in this game is a puzzle. It might be a difficult puzzle to figure out, but once you do, that's it. It's solved. This means that once you've got it down, tanks will always know where they're putting their mits, healers will always know where they're putting their heals, dps will always know where they're putting their mits, when they're using their burst, etc. etc.

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But, as has been repeatedly-clarified, Tanks and DPS still have fun offensive rotations to experiment-with, optimise, and try to maximise-uptime for, even once the mechanics of an encounter have become perfectly-solved and memorised.

Healers have their 275th Broil.

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

Again, for better or for worse, the game's gotten easier over the years and it's now "acceptable" now more than ever to be bad.

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So is your ultimate argument that Healers are needed because Healing is hard, so Healers have nothing to legitimately complain about? Or is it that Healers can't be changed because only "bad" people and "donuts" play Healers, and Healing needs to be easy for them?

Regardless, I think that, "things have already reached this point, so let's just give up", is a defeatist attitude.

I understand it — "Solar Bahamut" and the same McDonald's Primals for another 2.5 years has finally broken any spirit I had left to offer Summoner feedback — but "giving up" because you're personally tired does not mean that everyone else who is still fighting is wrong.

The MMO WOW reached a point where it had so-called "pruned" almost all of the flavour and details out of most of its Classes, in the interest of a more streamlined and efficient design and play-experience. (Sound familiar?)

Both "experienced" and many "casual" players complained vehemently about the changes for years — "experienced" because the mechanics became less fun and interesting, and "some casual" because they were seeing fun buttons that they liked vanishing for no apparent reason.

But eventually, after years of players refusing to stop complaining about "pruning", WOW ended up re-adding almost of the features that it had ripped-out over time. Casual players were still happy, and experienced players were now happ(ier). Those returned tools and mechanics have, since, largely remained in-place over multiple subsequent expansions.

Game design is just not absolutely-linear like the forward flow of time. It can be, and has been, reversed, reconsidered, and revised. It's not futile for people to ask for better from FFXIV, even if the current pattern makes it seem "unlikely".

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Originally Posted by Kazmarek

I suspect a lot of the healers striking are already donuts to begin with. You yourself, the creator of this thread, have admitted to not doing much higher-end content. Frankly, your opinion is completely irrelevant because of that. When you get up to the extreme level, the savage level, the ultimate level, the sustain of tanks (and dps) matters less and less because the fights are mechanically difficult, not healing difficult. Healers matter most, in my opinion, in prog,

Content in this game is a puzzle. It might be a difficult puzzle to figure out, but once you do, that\\\\'s it. It\\\\'s solved. This means that once you\\\\'ve got it down, tanks will always know where they\\\\'re putting their mits, healers will always know where they\\\\'re putting their heals, dps will always know where they\\\\'re putting their mits, when they\\\\'re using their burst, etc. etc. That\\\\'s just how it is. So instead of making healer good, or making tanks worse, there would need to be a complete overhaul of the battle system to make it less puzzle-like. I\\\\'m far from the first person to have this idea. I genuinely don\\\\'t think this is ever going to happen. Again, for better or for worse, the game\\\\'s gotten easier over the years and it\\\\'s now "acceptable" now more than ever to be bad.

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At the start I accepted your takes like you are some one being a bit of a yapper. But now after having these kind of takes I don’t even know what to write anymore. Healer pretty much in savage week 1 don’t matter because 99 % of the mechs are body checks. Every freaking mechs these days is a body check and if some one stood wrong you have a massive colourful explosion and you restart the encounter.

And also tank and dps have actually different moments were kill time does matter in top for example or reaper using arcane circle at end p2 or tanks having completely different cd rotations depending on the tank combo while healer still slam the 1 key 24/7.

Also Jesus lord in heaven the game didn’t get easier the jobs did. Pls compare old Alexander 12s to p12 s and tell me the game got easier with a straight face (also the community in general got way better) Just the door boss takes a dumb all over a12 s mechanic wise.

Like I’m a person that has normally not really a problem with any takes (I’m a person that uses data and facts and not personal feelings for arguments…….. normally) but you did these L takes a decent number of times now when people told you they did ultimate and week one and still find the healer role piss boring.

The fact is the healer role since start shadowbringer didn’t change at all and this was 5 years ago. I swapped of healer end shadowbringer because the role is not fun when you get better, the reward is less healing more 1 key hitting.

Self-sustain and healing abilities given to other roles
Other roles should feel like they contribute to helping the healer as some have more support than others and fills their job fantasy

Over simplified DPS rotation
Healers already struggle to do their 2 button rotation and in harder content where it is expected, having a more complicated rotation but having the same expectations would make the difference of a good healer and bad healer even greater. If you clear the tier on content or do ultimates it is most noticeable when you used to actually fail to meet damage checks because of the healers. Those healers would end up either not clearing until the party can carry them with gear or they end up becoming better.

There is optimization for healers at the very high end like astro giving 3 cards during div with lightspeed and 1 during odd minute but I tend to see astros just give cards on cd even in savage. You also have lily management so you can feed buffs as whm, double phlegma as sage, energy drain as sch during chain. Keep in mind they are revamping astro, giving whm more damage during burst and giving sage another damage button. There is complexity, it just matters how much you care about maximizing your toolkit. If you don't care about minmax/optimization then you really shouldn't care that much about your rotation being more complicated in the first place.

Homogenization of healer jobs
There's only so much you can do with healers since the game does not want you to be a heal bot and they also want you to be able to clear content with any 2 healers so how is whm/ast gonna mit deadly raidwides if they don't dip a little mitigation (wings/collective/exaltation/aquaveil/neutral/benison)

Excessive oGCD heals
It's not excessive if you do on early savage like 1-3 weeks, criterion, ultimates (the older ones u don't even have your full toolkit so it actually feels horrible because u need to mash those gcd heals). I do think there is room for SE to make more heal checks like spot healing and more raidwide damage but everyone hates healers more when they fail. It's the same feeling like a tank failing tank swap or dps actually being an actual floor dps where some or everyone will feel that mistake.

Lack of threat level in nearly all forms of content
There is threat levels in many dungeons, trials, savages, ultimates, criterions. I wouldn't expect every sprout to be pumping wall to wall in satasha but by the time they get out of arr they definitely get increasing difficulty in dungeons while not being so hard it stops them from doing the story. I've had wipes in dungeons because the healer died, no raisers and we would continue to wipe until the healer understood the mechanic or didn't get rnged with it.

I definitely think you should try ultimates and criterion (not variant). It sounds like you need harder content that actually forces you to use more of your toolkit and more gcds.
I'd be impressed if you could do all of criterion or savage criterion without using gcds at all, it is very well tuned and basically wants you to use gcds. At the moment savage does not provide that for you because everyone is well over geared by 20 item levels above what the content was made for and you have echo. There is content that will use your toolkit and more that it seems you don't do based on some of your previous posts. I don't think it should be up to SE to raise the difficulty of every piece of content when there are many casuals that want to just do the story. If you cleared the current savage tier and want harder content/complexity then you are not a casual and you should be getting yourself prepared for ultimates because its there for you.

part 2

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Originally Posted by Winge

I definitely think you should try ultimates and criterion (not variant). It sounds like you need harder content that actually forces you to use more of your toolkit and more gcds.
I'd be impressed if you could do all of criterion or savage criterion without using gcds at all, it is very well tuned and basically wants you to use gcds. At the moment savage does not provide that for you because everyone is well over geared by 20 item levels above what the content was made for and you have echo. There is content that will use your toolkit and more that it seems you don't do based on some of your previous posts. I don't think it should be up to SE to raise the difficulty of every piece of content when there are many casuals that want to just do the story. If you cleared the current savage tier and want harder content/complexity then you are not a casual and you should be getting yourself prepared for ultimates because its there for you.

part 2

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-play-Ultimate

Check the date of this thread... Read through it and tell us that healers have not been told To do hard/savage/extreme/ultimate content

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I swapped of healer end shadowbringer because the role is not fun when you get better, the reward is less healing more 1 key hitting.

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Hey congratulations my man! You did what everyone else refused to do until now. I'm happy for you, truly. I'm glad we agree!

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Originally Posted by Kayokane

I'm glad you've never had the experience of accidentally double clicking Cleric's Stance off and back on again when you needed to heal, that combined with Hallowed Ground delay caused many a wipe back in the day. 5 seconds is a long time when you need to heal now.

Cleric's Stances CD only applied when turning Cleric's Stance on, not when turning it off. I guess you must have done a hotbar swap macro so you didn't need to deal with the possible recast?

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As I said, I'm not trying to invalidate people's own personal experiences with Cleric Stance. I know it's a flashpoint-topic for a reason, even amongst people who actually were around to use it (rather than just people parroting hearsay from a time when they weren't actually playing).

However, speaking personally, this just wasn't an issue. I guess I just hit my keys differently?

I mean yes, double-taps or key-errors could accidentally happen, same as fat-fingering Deliverance or Defiance at the wrong time. But it wasn't some kind of chronic disaster-causing nightmare, and if "Uh, everyone, I accidentally went back into Cleric" did cause a wipe, it was rare enough to be just be a "lol... okay, let's pull again" moment, same as people messing up anything else in current FFXIV (like, "Oops, I just pressed Benediction" or "Oops, I stood on NW when I was assigned to NE").

All that said, I feel like current FFXIV also has more design-safeguards for things like this anyway, probably as an evolutionary response to these kinds of issues. For example, splitting Cleric Stance into 2 Actions that flip-over with each other — like current Tank Stances — with a minimum brief recast locking the swap, could probably go a long way to prevent the kind of double-taps that you experienced.

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Originally Posted by Winge

I definitely think you should try ultimates and criterion (not variant). It sounds like you need harder content that actually forces you to use more of your toolkit and more gcds.
I'd be impressed if you could do all of criterion or savage criterion without using gcds at all, it is very well tuned and basically wants you to use gcds. At the moment savage does not provide that for you because everyone is well over geared by 20 item levels above what the content was made for and you have echo. There is content that will use your toolkit and more that it seems you don't do based on some of your previous posts. I don't think it should be up to SE to raise the difficulty of every piece of content when there are many casuals that want to just do the story. If you cleared the current savage tier and want harder content/complexity then you are not a casual and you should be getting yourself prepared for ultimates because its there for you.

part 2

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I’m just going to reply to this but mention all of your points

1) contributing to helping the healer, that’s fine on things like covalence where the tank is assisting the healers heal or curing waltz where the DNC is an actual support job, it should not include things like WAR having a better healing oGCD than literally any single healer oGCD in SIO or bloodwhetting out healing any healer in AOE

2) every one struggles to do their rotation in savage week 1; why are we focusing in on healers here especially when healers have to account for the other mistakes. We aren’t asking for gigabrain rotations, just a little more than 1+2 being 80% of our total button presses. I’ll also note your “high end optimisation” example is getting deleted from the game

3) hasn’t stopped them still making double regens near unviable without gear

4) your entire point here is that oGCD’s are good because if we didn’t have as many as we do we’d need to GCD heal, some of us like the old minimal oGCD’s high GCD optimisation, back when your mit plan said “press succor”

5) that’s fine nobody is asking for gigabrain healing in dungeons, simply something for experienced healers to do in dungeons and normal content when we aren’t needed

6) I haven’t done criterion savage but I also don’t think my job should only be interesting to me in one tiny sliver of the games content

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Originally Posted by Winge

Self-sustain and healing abilities given to other roles
Other roles should feel like they contribute to helping the healer as some have more support than others and fills their job fantasy

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But not to the point that it replaces us in content. 1T 3D should be possible with a good, well co-ordinated team with decent gear, but it's currently very easy to actually perform thanks to the sustain that non healer jobs have alongside the low threat.

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Originally Posted by Winge

Over simplified DPS rotation
Healers already struggle to do their 2 button rotation and in harder content where it is expected, having a more complicated rotation but having the same expectations would make the difference of a good healer and bad healer even greater. If you clear the tier on content or do ultimates it is most noticeable when you used to actually fail to meet damage checks because of the healers. Those healers would end up either not clearing until the party can carry them with gear or they end up becoming better.

There is optimization for healers at the very high end like astro giving 3 cards during div with lightspeed and 1 during odd minute but I tend to see astros just give cards on cd even in savage. You also have lily management so you can feed buffs as whm, double phlegma as sage, energy drain as sch during chain. Keep in mind they are revamping astro, giving whm more damage during burst and giving sage another damage button. There is complexity, it just matters how much you care about maximizing your toolkit. If you don't care about minmax/optimization then you really shouldn't care that much about your rotation being more complicated in the first place.

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Tell me you haven't played pre-ShB without telling me you haven't played pre-ShB. We had more complex DPS kits with far higher healing requirements in both casual and hardcore content.

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Originally Posted by Winge

Homogenization of healer jobs
There's only so much you can do with healers since the game does not want you to be a heal bot and they also want you to be able to clear content with any 2 healers so how is whm/ast gonna mit deadly raidwides if they don't dip a little mitigation (wings/collective/exaltation/aquaveil/neutral/benison)

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Another reason for wanting more DPS spells; it gives another thing with which they can diversify, much like how we can have tanks that deliver their damage in different ways to each other.

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Originally Posted by Winge

Excessive oGCD heals
It's not excessive if you do on early savage like 1-3 weeks, criterion, ultimates (the older ones u don't even have your full toolkit so it actually feels horrible because u need to mash those gcd heals). I do think there is room for SE to make more heal checks like spot healing and more raidwide damage but everyone hates healers more when they fail. It's the same feeling like a tank failing tank swap or dps actually being an actual floor dps where some or everyone will feel that mistake.

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Every oGCD heal used is a GCD heal not used. We could prune most of them with no issue and the worst that would happen is that AST would use Benefic II or Aspected Helios more. DPS potency could very well be increased to compensate for that "lost" damage if we're concerned about healers not being able to help with enrage.

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Originally Posted by Winge

Lack of threat level in nearly all forms of content
There is threat levels in many dungeons, trials, savages, ultimates, criterions. I wouldn't expect every sprout to be pumping wall to wall in satasha but by the time they get out of arr they definitely get increasing difficulty in dungeons while not being so hard it stops them from doing the story. I've had wipes in dungeons because the healer died, no raisers and we would continue to wipe until the healer understood the mechanic or didn't get rnged with it.

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If there's no threat, there's no need for a healer to counteract that threat. Older expansions had casual content with a bite, there's no reason they can't continue to have a bite.

Personally, I love the idea from some players that 'healer strike is pointless, because I'll just play healer myself if the queue times are too long'. Because, let's say you're playing a tank or DPS through the story. You get to the final level 100 trial, and the queue won't pop because there's no healers (due to combination of this and VPR/PCT hype). So you swap to a healer to get a fast queue... which healer, exactly? You'll all have used a non-healer to do the story, so your healers will all still be at level 90. The idea that people will just casually swap to a healer to avoid the long queues is wishful thinking, only SMNs will be able to do this on release. Of course it'll be less of an issue after the first week or so, when people start levelling secondary classes, but it's the first week that this strike aims to impact the hardest anyway

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Originally Posted by Winge

I definitely think you should try ultimates and criterion (not variant). It sounds like you need harder content that actually forces you to use more of your toolkit and more gcds.

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Already do Savage week 1, and I've done Ultimates as a healer (even on-content Ultimates, not just outdated UCOB/UWU). What more can I do? And besides, as mentioned a million times, I still have to do things like EX roulette/Hunt Trains to cap my tomes. My job should feel fun to play in that content too. Or are you really trying to take the stance that 'your job should only feel fun to play in 5 pieces of content per 8 months, and nowhere else'

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

As I said, I'm not trying to invalidate people's own personal experiences with Cleric Stance.

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On the subject of Cleric Stance, I think it'd be good to bring back a stance-dance optimization tool on one of the healers, but not all of them. I think SCH is the best candidate for it, and this is how I'd do it:

Strategy: Offensive, increasing the base potency of Bio (30s), Miasma (24s), and Shadowflare (15s) by 20p. Every healing tool works mostly as it currently does while in Offensive stance, so 'locking yourself in stance' doesn't punish you with 'your healing is pathetic'.

Strategy: Defensive, adding additional defensive properties to actions. Turns Physick into Adlo (saves a hotbar space), Enthuse (new basic AOE heal GCD) into Succor, adds a barrier to Excog upon application, changes Indom to a barrier, Expedient's mitigation increased from 10% to 15%, Protraction applying a second copy of itself, Perpetuation, for another 10% Max HP increase effect, etc.

Strategy: Emergency, increasing the healing power of actions, at the cost of removing their defensive aspects. For example, Indom is increased potency, Excog heals on application as well as via the buff, Enthuse/Physick heal for 2x as much, Expedient's sprint duration increased to 15s, Protraction healing on application, etc.

For those that don't care to optimize anything, they could just stay in Defensive and everything (mostly) works as normal, with some bonus potencies on their barrier effects compared to now. For those that do want to optimize, they'd want to swap to Offensive every time they have to refresh their DOTs (a total of 17 per 2min), and swap to use Defensive or Emergency to get a slight bonus on their healing tools, depending on the situation. For example, swapping to Defensive to use Excog and get a Galvanize barrier from it, then using Deployment Tactics to spread both the Galvanize, and the Excog effect. Also the fairy's Embrace and Fey Blessing actions would be modified based on your selected stance, to make it feel like you're an actual duo, instead of the fairy feeling like little more than 'a permanent regen'.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Already do Savage week 1, and I've done Ultimates as a healer (even on-content Ultimates, not just outdated UCOB/UWU). What more can I do? And besides, as mentioned a million times, I still have to do things like EX roulette/Hunt Trains to cap my tomes. My job should feel fun to play in that content too. Or are you really trying to take the stance that 'your job should only feel fun to play in 5 pieces of content per 8 months, and nowhere else'

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"What do you think this is, a video game? Stop asking to have fun!" -Someone, probably

I saw this mentioned earlier in the thread and just wanted to emphasize and expand on it.

Imagine , for tanks, your combo was basically Frontline/pvp variant (One button press continues your combo string of, say, Heavy Swing>Maim>Storm's Path/Eye). You had a singular Dot Gcd. And then, to fill the rest of your class load out, about 10 different variants of Rampart of various effects and cooldowns. That is tragically what playing healer has, and as you can imagine, isn't very engaging