Monks very weak. Need rebalance

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

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1165 total potency over 7 GCDs
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1190 total potency over 7 GCDs

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This is a phenomenally bad comparison because you frontload the second cycle of bootshine in the second example, skewing the average damage upward inaccurately. Same as that ayvar guy. Facepalm.

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Is 1165 over 7 = 166.4

BS TR SP
DK TS SP

Is 165.8 potency per GCD.

The gap is larger when you factor in actual crit rates (you will have a 10-50% actual crit rate, reducing the value of Bootshine's autocrit).

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

This is a phenomenally bad comparison because you frontload the second cycle of bootshine in the second example, skewing the average damage upward inaccurately. Same as that ayvar guy. Facepalm.

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Is 1165 over 7 = 166.4

BS TR SP
DK TS SP

Is 165.8 potency per GCD.

The gap is larger when you factor in actual crit rates (you will have a 10-50% actual crit rate, reducing the value of Bootshine's autocrit).

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Bootshine is 100% crit rate from behind in Opo-opo form. That alone should give you an incentive to move from Bootshine to Bootshine quickly. You also only have 6 GCDs in your second example instead of the first's 7. So your comparison is wholly inaccurate. You need to compare 7 GCDs vs 7 GCDs. Numbers still do not lie. So yea, facepalm.

You're an idiot. I can simply take:

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Add an extra Bootshine because we love adding high damage GCDs to frontload the following cycle and skew average damage:

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP
BS

And jack up DPS estimates erroneously:

130(195) 180 140 180
150 140 180
130(195)

1360 over 8 GCDs = 170 potency per GCD. Whee.

Numbers don't lie, but they sure look stupid in the hands of fools.

For all you guys try to play rotation to improve monk DPS, I have to laugh. In real fight, rotation doesn't work. Mob won't stay there face the same way. some monk only did half DPS as I did during the Titan fight with similar gear. My word is making rotation as simple as possible and not screw up your light3. Back to OP topic, data can't lie and monk is suck. no new player pick monk. Most high level monk came from day one. Barb is just too hot and they should get a nerf.

Look at Dragon Kick Duration, now work out when you use it.
Bootshine is more damage increase also due to 100% crit. Dragon kick is used every 3rd rotation, same as Demolish is used every 3rd rotation.
However that is in the ideal envoirment, in battle its different. Look at the debuff bard and see that it doesnt wear off but not overwriting too eearly.

Also hilarious how you want to make a monk guide yet omitted any Fracture and Impulse drive from rotation

Impulse Drive is one of the best skills we have, abuse it.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

Bootshine is 100% crit rate from behind in Opo-opo form. That alone should give you an incentive to move from Bootshine to Bootshine quickly. You also only have 6 GCDs in your second example instead of the first's 7. So your comparison is wholly inaccurate. You need to compare 7 GCDs vs 7 GCDs. Numbers still do not lie. So yea, facepalm.

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Risbyn, I was thinking the same way you were to begin with. Compare 7 GCDs to 7 GCDs. However, it is an unfair DPS comparison with monk because they operate using cycles. Easymode is right. So even though you could be comparing 7 GCDs to 7 GCDs, it would be misleading when one cycle is 6 GCDs and the other is 7 GCDs. You should think of it as a DPS or DOT comparison per cycle, not a damage per GCD count comparison.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Impulse Drive is one of the best skills we have, abuse it.

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Impulse Drive adds DPS, but not that much, and you have to change your general priorities to use it.

The TP drain is a concern, however, so it's probably not worth both the TP cost increase and gameplay-changing cost.

FWIW, a crit-adjusted DK + BS + TW (no TR) + FR + ID Monk cycle has around 150.1 potency per second compared to a DK + BS + TW + TR + FR (no ID) cycle at around 149.

So we're not talking that much difference. The FR + ID one actually drops True Strike, making things somewhat simpler from that perspective though. However, the more consistent rhythm of the 'no ID' variant makes it easier to execute.

For comparison's sake, the raw Monk "purist" DK + BS + TW + TR (no Fracture, no ID) is compact and results in ~147.4 pps. Less than 2% loss of DPS, and it is moderately more TP-efficient than the FR or the FR+ID approaches.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

For all you guys try to play rotation to improve monk DPS, I have to laugh. In real fight, rotation doesn't work. Mob won't stay there face the same way. some monk only did half DPS as I did during the Titan fight with similar gear. My word is making rotation as simple as possible and not screw up your light3. Back to OP topic, data can't lie and monk is suck. no new player pick monk. Most high level monk came from day one. Barb is just too hot and they should get a nerf.

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Good words. You see the point

issue with monk is they are depending on short buffs that get forced off during big fights

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

You're an idiot. I can simply take:

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP

Add an extra Bootshine because we love adding high damage GCDs to frontload the following cycle and skew average damage:

BS ID TW SP
DK TW SP
BS

And jack up DPS estimates erroneously:

130(195) 180 140 180
150 140 180
130(195)

1360 over 8 GCDs = 170 potency per GCD. Whee.

Numbers don't lie, but they sure look stupid in the hands of fools.

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So we resort to name calling? Classy. I'm done responding to your kind.

I redid the math and went over the numbers with a friend and I'm man enough to admit my math was off. I see where you're going with the GCD numbers now, but I recommend not using Impulse Drive for anything other than burst damage. I might start using it now on a certain fight instead of dismissing it outright. However the TP cost to Potency ratio hurts a lot.

I think people are not factoring in time here and suggesting that we have infinite resources(TP). We do not, there are endurance fights where you will not be able to weave Impulse Drive/Fracture consistently into your rotation and you will be running out of TP then. If you wish to keep using Impulse Drive in everything, be my guest.

while the beta, i had make a loooong thread about the problem in the monk design.

- the lack of range attack, we did loose the chakram of the V1... for nothing. all the other melee class did get a range attack.
- the self buff too short for be maintain in high level fight.
- the damage of the monk far too low in comparaison of the other dps. you can say, yes if we keep the buff we deal insane damage.... the fact is, we can't maintain the selfbuff enough for get this insane damage.- the position in our attack... it was not needed, we had an incredible combo system, instead to make it complet, they have add the position that some people was asking. we do get a side combo and a back combo... but no front combo. making the monk pretty weak alone or in some condition.
- the dot... gosh, why do the monk need DoT? instead of the range attack that was needed for the monk at level 15 we did get a DoT outside of the cycle and Demolition one of the most impressive skill of the monk now deal... a DoT only.

like i have said in my previous post in the beta, the monk feel like a rogue or a thief... not a martial artist trying to annihilate him target like it's describe.
how change this?
an important revamp of the jobs/class is needed:
- take out the damage buff from GL and put back the damage in the skill. the increase of speed is more than enough and at least like this the monk will not be screw everytime the selfbuff disappear
- take out the position in the skill of the monk, giving him the freedom of mouvement it need soo badly. a martial artist is facing him opponent not try to take it from behind like a rogue/thief.
- give a range attack to the monk.
- and the most important work more on the combo system... actually the freedom we was expecting at the announce of it hide a pretty strict system that don't allows any error.

you can upgrade the combo system by adding a sort of count of hit done, some skill can't be used if you don't reach a certain number of attack. when you reach the number needed you use it for launch a powerfull attack and reset the count and the selfbuff.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Look at Dragon Kick Duration, now work out when you use it.
Bootshine is more damage increase also due to 100% crit. Dragon kick is used every 3rd rotation, same as Demolish is used every 3rd rotation.
However that is in the ideal envoirment, in battle its different. Look at the debuff bard and see that it doesnt wear off but not overwriting too eearly.

Also hilarious how you want to make a monk guide yet omitted any Fracture and Impulse drive from rotation

Impulse Drive is one of the best skills we have, abuse it.

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I made the guide for my Free Company. I posted the rotation portion because people honestly wanted help. Also Dragon Kick falls off if you use it every 3rd rotation unless you have some unreal Skill Speed.

I have once more idea. Monk needs to attack from behind and from the flank. So monk needs more stun attacks to bind enemy and will be able to use this seconds to attack from different sides. Now monk has only one "normal@ stun attack, but it is not enough

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

I have once more idea. Monk needs to attack from behind and from the flank. So monk needs more stun attacks to bind enemy and will be able to use this seconds to attack from different sides. Now monk has only one "normal@ stun attack, but it is not enough

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the trouble is the position needed! not add stun, take out the position and we will get more freedom and dps.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the trouble is the position needed! not add stun, take out the position and we will get more freedom and dps.

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You suggest to move out all this @flank@ and @behind@ from monk's skills? How do you see this?

This thread is hopeless. The retardation is too stronk.

Thiefs in other games hit faster but dealing small dmg, having more crit, and bust for dmg, like backstab and such.

Monk is not like thief at all, the only reason why ppl think that is becouse of positions.

Gl sucks becouse if GL is gone your dps is bad. Buffing all skills dmg and remove the dmg+ part from GL would make monk to op. They should buff the duration of GL to 15 sec atleast.

by adding effect instead, melee class lack thing to make them usefull in comparaison of the ranged. why not allows the monk to use some sort of pressure point on the enemy that will add debuff.
or simply give the damage bonus without position, the monk need freedom, he is potentially the most fragile class of the game since he is a melee and don't have a tons of hp nor mitigation. the position is simply endangered him. class like thief will have a better use of this mechanic.

let's see each skill:
- Bootshine, when used in opo opo stance, increase the damage deal by the critical attack of the monk for 12-15 second.
- snap punch, simply give him the 180 potency without the position
- true strike, increase the potency to 180 and take out of the critical chance
- twin snakes, like snap punch get the 140 potency
- dragon kick, simply give the 150 potency.

a lot of this skill already give something, why add the position bonus into this. the two skill bringing nothing are bootshine and true strike, by increasing the damage or giving small bonus you can make them interesting for be placed in a rotation.

@jokingcat: i don't see why it will be op, since the damage will be the same as when you get the 3 stack, the only difference will be the speed of attack given by GL. if you loose it, you are not totally screw, you will still need to get it to the max for get the maximum output possible by getting the speed boost.

I think the issue in FF14 has more to do with the significantly bad delay between the mobs turning and the clients being updated on the mob position / direction. The client is around a full second behind, which is pretty bad, making it a pain to land positionals when the boss/add has any notable movement.

I agree that buffing Monks initial damage by removing the positional requirements won't make him op. Their damage would just increase by some margin, but it won't outweight the others by far. In addition there are AoE's to be aware of, this reduces their dps significantly already.

i do play drg and pugilist both at 50, even with 2 skill at place on side/back for the drg is more easier to get the dps and avoid trouble... that not the case with the monk... if you don't respect your rotation, your dps will fall drastically and that not the case with the drg.
some will say, yeah but it more rewarding and i will answer no, a dragoon on the long term in endgame fight will still deal more damage, because the drop of the GL screw the monk by a looot.
the attack of the monk deal less damage per hit and without GL you don't hit a lot faster than a dragoon. the time to get back to your full trottle the dragoon will have deal a lot more damage, and each time the GL drop you fall more and more behind.

and i don't even compare with ranged class.
position and gl damage buff are a problem, was said while the beta (and not by only me).

when i was new to this game i would expect monk to be like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERwVVV96yPA
i give you some simple combo example from this video of another game.

your AA is great and fast.
your passiv skill have a 50% chanse to do a tripple stike wich leads you into some other combos.
your other combos deals more dmg but it drains your mana depends of wich combos you use, its fair play more dmg = more mana drain.
you have skills like a RANGE attack, 1 skill wich deals more dmg if the monster have high DEF. and a veary strong attack wich takes all your mana for 1 stirke, basically a LB.
You have your buffs wich last for like 1 min.
Now this is a little bit of a offtopic but yea...

monk trouble list
1. Very bad for solo since the position issue.
2. very little damage, about 1/2 highest damage compare with other DPS class
3 attack not fast. Almost same attack speed as bard. Ls3 give 20% faster. But monk need 100% faster to compensate the damage lose
4 a lots of useless skills.
5 will be very bad class for upcoming pvp since monk has no burst damage or enough cc skill.

All these troubles lead monk is hardest job to find group even the population is lowest one.

Recent data shows no much new player play monk. That is. Who can add more? I hope develop team can redesign this job.

Monk Problems:

Aoe's are terrible: -It takes 3 moves to use Rock Breaker (Don't bother mentioning perfect balance, archers don't need that to spam their strong aoe's)
-Arm of the destroyer is EXTREMELY weak, for what benefit? Silence all? I'd rather have a higher potency for damage. I'm a level 50 monk with Full darklight gear, and it took about 12 uses of arm of the destroyer to kill a level 12 turtle, why?

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

monk trouble list
1. Very bad for solo since the position issue.
2. very little damage, about 1/2 highest damage compare with other DPS class
3 attack not fast. Almost same attack speed as bard. Ls3 give 20% faster. But monk need 100% faster to compensate the damage lose
4 a lots of useless skills.
5 will be very bad class for upcoming pvp since monk has no burst damage or enough cc skill.

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1. Agree, although not a big problem.
2. Completely false, monk damage potential is possibly highest in the game
3. Not relevant considering our damage is good
4. Completely false, all skills get a good amount of use. Maybe One Ilm Punch and Haymaker get little use due to being super situational - not really a problem.
5. Every melee class will suck in PvP given how the game works when trying to attack moving targets.

Grease Lighting:-Stacking GL is not fun, but tedious; I would rather have a "boost power" move like in FFXI.

Range Attack:-Where is Chi Blast? (Shoulder Tackle doesn't count, and has a LONG cooldown)

Hundred Fists:-Where is this? I saw the NPC of the Puglist guild use it on me.

Combo System: It gets repetative, and forces you to use certain moves. I would like to string my own combos, instead of being forced to: Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch most of the time. I want a more free combo system.

Positional Damage, why this is annoying:-A lot of times the tank will move to avoid aoe's and cone moves, so if he moves, you move. If he moves a lot, you will get a headache.

-Fighting solo. When I'm trying to burn down an enemy by myself, say I'm fighting a mob trying to kill the white mage, I'm going to do garbage damage, because I can't be like a sneaky theif and hit it from the side or behind. WE ARE NOT THEIFS, WHY DO WE NEED TO HIT FROM BEHIND OR THE SIDE FOR MAX dAMAGE!??? (Don't bother mentioning to run quickly to the side or any of that, I know how to do that, the question is WHY? We are not theifs. Monks in real life don't need to be sneaky, and sucker punch people.

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

[B] Monks in real life don't need to be sneaky, and sucker punch people.

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Monks in real life are peaceful people who dont need to fight at all. No need to compare it to anything other than the game itself.
Having the mechanic to where our class does more damage from a certain direction or spot is actually a good thing because if we were to just do the same damage from anywhere then it'd get far more boring than having to move around.
I dont see why its so hard for you to move with the tank, just make sure you know the fight and when the tank is going to move because the boss is doing a certain attack and then adjust yourself to continue doing the damage.

http://i.imgur.com/Q5YE9Jf.jpg

Turn 2 with LB3

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Originally Posted by Akamu_Aniketos

Monks in real life don't need to be sneaky, and sucker punch people.

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Monks in real life are out damaged by range DPS. :D

@Passive

Monks in real life; when provoked to fight don't need to be sneaky and sucker punch people. No need to over analyze my method of speech.

If you can string your own combos and hit enemies from any angle it gives you more freedom to enjoy the job. Instead of standing on the side like a dud, stringing that one go to combo. You have to understand this game takes a long time, and there is A LOT of fights; being forced to do the same thing and being penalized for not sticking to a side for hundreds, thousands of fights is NOT fun. It's not hard to move, it's just NOT FUN.

It's ok to have ONE skill that hits for higher damage from the back or side, but a majority of the moves, or the main combo you'll be using. You have to glue yourself to the side. How do you do this when fighting a boss like the wall? And I don't have to mention solo fighting.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

http://i.imgur.com/Q5YE9Jf.jpg

Turn 2 with LB3

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Dude, you used LB3, remove 30k Dmg, you are below other DPS.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Dude, you used LB3, remove 30k Dmg, you are below other DPS.

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LB3 hits for 12-15k. He's still significantly above everyone, on a fight that is not completely melee friendly. T.K.O.

I hope they don't touch Monk. The best DD I've seen is Monks, out DD DRG etc a lot. Most people just don't know how yet and that's what an FF game is suppose to be like :-)

To all who thinks that Monk DPS is already enough.

Let those people who think otherwise to make more noise so that we all could be BUFF!!! :)

I'd like Greasing Light to have a longer duration.. seriously. Mantra is also pretty stupid congrats you healed 1 second faster. Fist of Winds is also minuscule (what? we run 3% faster?).

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Originally Posted by Spythe

Your entire post is a contradiction, if you actually knew the class really well and how to play it you would know MNKs have the one of best sustained DPS in the game. With that said Mnks can use some adjustments to make the class smoother to play for harder content and boss fights. All the primals HM disappear or do something where its annoying to keep GL stacks up. With my AF wep the highest crit I got so far was 650 and auto atk crits for 250.

People really need to stop thinking they know everything about a class, dumb threads like these will take MNKs in the wrong direction.

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Can't tell if trolling... or serious. Are you talking about sustained DPS on target dummies? Cause if you are... wow...

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Originally Posted by Valsh

LB3 hits for 12-15k. He's still significantly above everyone, on a fight that is not completely melee friendly. T.K.O.

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You really have no clue how DPS is calculated do you? If you hit for 12-15k in ONE hit its going to substantially increase your DPS and F up the reading.

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Originally Posted by Maroite

You really have no clue how DPS is calculated do you? If you hit for 12-15k in ONE hit its going to substantially increase your DPS and F up the reading.

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The fight was 187 seconds long (61,000 dmg / 331 dps). Remove 15,000 damage and instead of doing 331 dps he did 245 dps. Considering 2nd place dps did 187 dps, he still did 58 more dps compared to 2nd place. That is still 31% more dps than the 2nd place guy.

Now granted, he may have much better gear than the other guy, but still; 31% more damage is pretty impressive.

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Originally Posted by Maroite

You really have no clue how DPS is calculated do you? If you hit for 12-15k in ONE hit its going to substantially increase your DPS and F up the reading.

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It´s One hit but with long casting time

U need to take dmg/Time for calculate dps

And in monk it´s happen that GL fade during the LB cast+animation ...