Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

@Themarvin: It literally is above EX difficulty? Have you even been in there?

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

@Themarvin: It literally is above EX difficulty? Have you even been in there?

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As little as the content has been played, it is BS... as for SE messing it up is another story, but this more that get in on this content this better, as for the difficulty, it will go down rather quick.

The only difficulty here is getting a game going, and that is what people is crying about and create bs behavior like this.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

As little as the content has been played, it is BS... as for SE messing it up is another story, but this more that get in on this content this better, as for the difficulty, it will go down rather quick.

The only difficulty here is getting a game going, and that is what people is crying about and create bs behavior like this.

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The two closest equivalents in BA and DRS went down in difficulty because of factors added to the zones later on or discovered later, like people clearing BA being able to give everyone cloaks and osodes and run elemental armour or things like rays and flare star for DRS

Forked gear gives you almost no extra power, if jobs came out that powercrept forked as hard as something like flare star did to DRS it would make the current phantom jobs completely useless as they are mostly underpowered as it is and all this can only start happening in 7.45 at the earliest when we get new phantom jobs

Hello! I thought I would reply to clear up some misconceptions and untruths from the OP - seeing as I have been mentioned by name despite being a Healer in this run and not directly part of their qualms.

Firstly, the OP did not post screenshots of "insults" and "harassments" because they do not exist. They did not happen. Before the run, when it was clear there were two players sniping, I politely asked if they'd be willing to not do so, and if they wanted to anyway, that's fine, it's their right, but we will treat them as solo players. Once they got into the run and two players who had been waiting had to spectate, they did not reply to our message, nor show any indication of interest in joining us or recieving callouts. They remained mute, and ignored us. Again, fine - we left them to their own devices.

They claim that they were "intentionally killed by a tank buster" in the second boss. So for those who haven't done the encounter, let me explain how that tank buster works. There are 3 bosses, and 3 large cleaves - these are to be aimed outwards, and the group would stack on the inside to give them space. When the tank buster went off, the OP is standing on the outside of the boss, and got hit by the cleave. It was their own fault. As an aside, OP was on tank - they would have been fine standing in front of the boss for that cleave, had they popped a cooldown.

The OP's friend died to the next mechanic - one where you must cleanse your own color debuffs by standing in specific positions. They failed the mechanic and died. Both their deaths are due to their own mechanical failures.

We did not raise them, and I do not feel bad for not doing so. They showed no inclination to join the run and participate in any way, and they had no idea how to deal with the second boss' mechanics. The Bridge encounter, which directly follows, is very easy to wipe if players aren't extremely careful of trap placements and positioning. We had already experienced a near miss after the first boss where the OP nearly killed a number us to running through trap infested zone. We did not trust them.

Whatever your personal feelings are on whether the Forked Tower is equivalent to Duty Finder content or not is irrelevent. The fact remains that in the vast majority of cases, BA, DRS and FT are cleared by pre-mades with callout assistance. These players were not harassed, bullied and insulted - they joined a collaborative run, decided to not collaborate, died on their own and decided to play the victim because they saw that I was a content creator. I was not streaming this run, after politely requesting they not snipe beforehand I said nothing to them and didn't interact with them, and yet I am mentioned by name as an attempt to garner sympathy.

You are not victims to some big mean organised run attempting to ruin your day. You just didn't like the way an interaction played out, and decided to embellish it to rile up emotion. Good luck in the future.

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

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And this proves this content was never designed for the general playerbase. It is gatekeeped for pre-made groups on discord. If content can't be completed by the playerbase with the IN-GAME tools available. It should simply not exist. Period. And if it is solely designed for pre-made and well coordinated groups, it should be completely inaccessible by random players. Period.

It's a concern to share with the developers, yes. The entry system does not fit the content.

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

It's a concern to share with the developers, yes. The entry system does not fit the content.

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Or the content doesnt fit the entry system ;)

As expected, OP is just an asshole

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

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You are very brave for posting this, but I wish you did so sooner, because the temperature regarding this content is very high right now.

I really don't think people actually care what really happened, or the perspective/rationale from a collective seeking out the best result for the most amount of people in their raid.

You're going to get a lot of hate for who you are and the decisions that were made, honestly.

I understand exactly why you did what you did, and I agree with you even, I would have made the same choice for the sake of the 45 other people that night, but no one should have had to be put in that position in the first place, the random, or the premade. That's the crucial flaw, the crux, that takes precedence over every single interpersonal squabble.

People will boil this down to discords vs randoms, or elitists vs casuals, when in actuality, it's a failure of the game design that enabled this to even happen at all, and is another mask-off moment for the game state at large.

How anyone at SE thought this was going to be acceptable, or a positive community moment, all of us coming together, is beyond me. You have to TRY to make things this hostile.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

If SE catered to raiders, the jobs wouldn't be this braindead. I'm a bad player myself, but everyone can read a guide and join a discord without actively sabotaging players.

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Apparently, the jobs are this braindead in order to cater to raiders. It's an inherent design conflict, and one that pits the classical MMO/RPG folks (that enjoy a large board of character abilities) and the action gamers (whose pace is honestly in fact better suited to simplistic d-pad/QERT style character ability sets) at impossible sixes-and-sevens to one another.

It's a problem I saw coming many many years ago - in fact, honestly, before the modern MMO explosion (back before WoW, when "MMOs" meant things like EverQuest and FFXI that were still fairly niche, hardcore-leaning games, even), when RPGs started becoming more "actiony."

And seeing games like KH and later PS2 RPGs, I literally stopped and thought to myself how is this even going to work in the future? You barely had time to get through the menus back in FFX-2 before the boss murdered you if you used active mode. .hack had to pause things while you went through the menus (ludicrously unrealistic for an MMO-sim in retrospect), etc. So how can you possibly keep up fast action gameplay without stripping down actions to the point that they can all be easily fit into limited instantly ready buttons? (Which MMO action bars and hotkeying show time and again is an ever increasingly strained affair ...)

Something had to give.

And booking up used to be a lot more effective even for us lower echelon gamers. Now the reaction times and small cues involved are getting to the point where we're nearly shouldered out altogether (I keep wondering when it tips so being able to succeed is going to come down to a high end PC, being able to live in a tony West Coast neighborhood, and/or natural athletics style talent more than teachable skill ...)

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Originally Posted by Amarande

Apparently, the jobs are this braindead in order to cater to raiders.

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A correction here because raiders will complain non-stop about how brain-dead the jobs feel, it wasn't meant to cater to raiders, it was meant to push more people into savage who were annoyed you had to remember to breathe to play some classes (Old Machinist comes to mind).

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Originally Posted by Volgia

A correction here because raiders will complain non-stop about how brain-dead the jobs feel, it wasn't meant to cater to raiders, it was meant to push more people into savage who were annoyed you had to remember to breathe to play some classes (Old Machinist comes to mind).

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Whats funny about that is that job design is not what prevents players from doing savage.

Its the fight design of savage. A discussion of which opens a can of worms about how hard content should be design, and the jump from dungeon roulette playing to savage being massive ( and no, one relevant ex every 3 month is not sufficient)

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is not Ex or Savage Content.

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If SE restricts the ability to rez, it's typically because they intended it to be challenging content in the way that BA or DRS is. They wouldn't do that if it was intended to be CLL or Dalriada level difficulty. We have enough precedent to say at least that.

But of course, the entry methods don't make sense for an organized high-end group. They make sense if it's like CLL or Dalriada. But it's not CLL or Dalriada because a bunch of randoms are almost certainly going to just wipe.

In order to make it work for a bunch of randoms, the design has to account for a certain percentage of the raid to be clueless players that have no idea what they are doing and no idea how to play. CLL achieved this by having 8 people who knew what they were doing fight one boss, and the rest wipe repeatedly to a boss where dying didn't matter that much.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

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The whole tower contradicts itself.

It expects random teamups but the fight design expects good coordination and raidplans.
It wants players fighting over the entrance (Ciphers) but the player size of the zone is not enough and the pugunfriendlyness goes against it (and if the Japanese forum is right then you get punished if you try to recruit through PF of DRS)
It wants coordination but actively punishes premades with the island gacha and the ability for randoms to get in as well.
The whole game itself discourages to not raise other players or kill them in content but it sadly is the “best” way to even succeed it seems. (Note that my personal opinion still is that this is wrong)
It expects exploration and experimentation (traps, hidden rooms, the puzzle) but punishes with harsh raising conditions for failing them.
It expects the mob outside to be killed but it’s location is random and there are very few players in that zone at that moment (I don’t know if it can spawn while a CE is active but if yes that’s even more strange).

The more I think about it the less sense this whole thing makes.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

It expects the mob outside to be killed but it’s location is random and there are very few players in that zone at that moment (I don’t know if it can spawn while a CE is active but if yes that’s even more strange).

The more I think about it the less sense this whole thing makes.

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Yes the outside mob can spawn during a CE. The first time I got one, the Tower people warned in shout chat that it was coming, so I didn’t go to the CE that spawned right after so I could go to the support gate. Wish it gave more sanguinite though… up it to 5 and give the Tower people more too.

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

Hello! I thought I would reply to clear up some misconceptions and untruths from the OP - seeing as I have been mentioned by name despite being a Healer in this run and not directly part of their qualms.

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Can already tell how biased and contradictory this reply is. You refer to them as snipers and tell them to leave even before the run has started. You then say THEY didn't want to collaborate, yeah right. Also cut the bs you where never planning on raising them. You had decided to kill them-let them die from the start. I have received incriminating video evidence of them talking in vc about it, if any of this was mentioned in chat you would've committed reportable offenses. Stop pretending you had any good intentions for them.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If SE restricts the ability to rez, it's typically because they intended it to be challenging content in the way that BA or DRS is. They wouldn't do that if it was intended to be CLL or Dalriada level difficulty. We have enough precedent to say at least that.

But of course, the entry methods don't make sense for an organized high-end group. They make sense if it's like CLL or Dalriada. But it's not CLL or Dalriada because a bunch of randoms are almost certainly going to just wipe.

In order to make it work for a bunch of randoms, the design has to account for a certain percentage of the raid to be clueless players that have no idea what they are doing and no idea how to play. CLL achieved this by having 8 people who knew what they were doing fight one boss, and the rest wipe repeatedly to a boss where dying didn't matter that much.

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played MMO's where only one revive was possible per attempt even in normal mode in raids, this is nothing and I believe that Chemist Can revive x amount of times and it is out.

The only actual difficulty in Forked Tower is it small windows when the place is open, and that is it.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

played MMO's where only one revive was possible per attempt even in normal mode in raids, this is nothing and I believe that Chemist Can revive x amount of times and it is out.

The only actual difficulty in Forked Tower is it small windows when the place is open, and that is it.

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Each person has 3 stacks on them, with 1 incoming raise consuming 1 stack. If you die 4 times, you're on the floor for good.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Each person has 3 stacks on them, with 1 incoming raise consuming 1 stack. If you die 4 times, you're on the floor for good.

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That is what I refer to as luxury, be way more open if failing the place or not, it does not matter and it does not increase the 'talent pool' either just telling people to get out of the place or whatever either, what the top post is about is sort of trying to prevent people from trying the content, and even worse, forcing them to do things.

The only difficulty is the weather condition and small window to get inside of the thing, and that is not a player issue, that is an SE issue, and if they want to make two variants of it, they should as they have done before.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

played MMO's where only one revive was possible per attempt even in normal mode in raids, this is nothing

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You're missing the point. I am saying that limited revive is a calling card SE leaves when they intend it to be a high-end duty: BA, DRS, Criterion Savage

SE did not specifically clarify whether it's a high-end duty, so this is a sign we can use to understand SE's intention.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

Can already tell how biased and contradictory this reply is.

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It's biased only insofar as they are the person involved in the incident. It's impossible for them to change that fact, so it's not really fair to bring it up.

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You refer to them as snipers and tell them to leave even before the run has started. You then say THEY didn't want to collaborate, yeah right.

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That's not a contradiction. Rinon asked them not to snipe. They decided to snipe. What's done is done; it cannot be changed. So now they didn't try to collaborate with their "team" in what is literally "team" content.

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Also cut the bs you where never planning on raising them.

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Obviously. Because they were sniping. But that decision could have changed if the individuals decided to collaborate and demonstrate that they were able to carry out their role in the raid without running around aimlessly.

Anyway, you're barking at the wrong person there. SE is to blame for repeating their BA mistake after promising not to.

They are going to dedicate half the broadcast to Cosmic and Occult feedback. Based on 6.3 Part 1 (Part 1) duration, that would be 1 hour and 20 minutes.

This post is blatantly a bad faith attempt at painting the discords as evil spiteful content mongering overlords.

Multiple people have already pointed it out, but that boss's tank buster isn't something that a tank could use to target snipe one individual without cleaving half the party. They have claims of people being rude, but the only screenshot they provide is people asking them not to join.

Whatever your stance on sniping/discords/entitlement whatever. It's obvious this person is an actual literal troll whose goal was to be a problem, either by griefing the raid or later by coming to forums and making a "whole hearted appeal about respecting each other's right to public content DX."

Like they very obviously targeted a streamer intentionally, called them out BY NAME, and then wrote in a passive victim voice, while twisting as much of the story to cater to false preconceptions of people who haven't studied nor step foot into the content.

Shame on you OP.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because they were sniping. But that decision could have changed if the individuals decided to collaborate and demonstrate that they were able to carry out their role in the raid without running around aimlessly.

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It doesn't seem like they were ever given an offer to collaborate - they were flat out told "you can be here if you want, but we're not treating you as members of our team".

Had they said something to the effect of "Hey, would you like to join our VC for callouts? This raid requires a lot of coordination." and were ignored, that'd be another thing.

I don't think either party handled this particularly well.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You're missing the point. I am saying that limited revive is a calling card SE leaves when they intend it to be a high-end duty: BA, DRS, Criterion Savage

SE did not specifically clarify whether it's a high-end duty, so this is a sign we can use to understand SE's intention.

It's biased only insofar as they are the person involved in the incident. It's impossible for them to change that fact, so it's not really fair to bring it up.
That's not a contradiction. Rinon asked them not to snipe. They decided to snipe. What's done is done; it cannot be changed. So now they didn't try to collaborate with their "team" in what is literally "team" content.
Obviously. Because they were sniping. But that decision could have changed if the individuals decided to collaborate and demonstrate that they were able to carry out their role in the raid without running around aimlessly.

Anyway, you're barking at the wrong person there. SE is to blame for repeating their BA mistake after promising not to.

They are going to dedicate half the broadcast to Cosmic and Occult feedback. Based on 6.3 Part 1 (Part 1) duration, that would be 1 hour and 20 minutes.

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I mean sure but it also reveals the incredible underlying toxicity of some of the no life HC community when they are defending content and behavior that excludes 90% of the playerbase. You give them the benefit of the doubt that they where running around 'aimlessly' and that decisions wheren't made to kill them and not raise them from the get go, I do not and I have heard some of the VCS.

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Originally Posted by RinonSenjou

Firstly, the OP did not post screenshots of "insults" and "harassments" because they do not exist. They did not happen. Before the run, when it was clear there were two players sniping, I politely asked if they'd be willing to not do so, and if they wanted to anyway, that's fine, it's their right, but we will treat them as solo players. Once they got into the run and two players who had been waiting had to spectate, they did not reply to our message, nor show any indication of interest in joining us or recieving callouts. They remained mute, and ignored us. Again, fine - we left them to their own devices.

They claim that they were "intentionally killed by a tank buster" in the second boss. So for those who haven't done the encounter, let me explain how that tank buster works. There are 3 bosses, and 3 large cleaves - these are to be aimed outwards, and the group would stack on the inside to give them space. When the tank buster went off, the OP is standing on the outside of the boss, and got hit by the cleave. It was their own fault. As an aside, OP was on tank - they would have been fine standing in front of the boss for that cleave, had they popped a cooldown.

The OP's friend died to the next mechanic - one where you must cleanse your own color debuffs by standing in specific positions. They failed the mechanic and died. Both their deaths are due to their own mechanical failures.

We did not raise them, and I do not feel bad for not doing so. They showed no inclination to join the run and participate in any way, and they had no idea how to deal with the second boss' mechanics. The Bridge encounter, which directly follows, is very easy to wipe if players aren't extremely careful of trap placements and positioning. We had already experienced a near miss after the first boss where the OP nearly killed a number us to running through trap infested zone. We did not trust them.

Whatever your personal feelings are on whether the Forked Tower is equivalent to Duty Finder content or not is irrelevent. The fact remains that in the vast majority of cases, BA, DRS and FT are cleared by pre-mades with callout assistance. These players were not harassed, bullied and insulted - they joined a collaborative run, decided to not collaborate, died on their own and decided to play the victim because they saw that I was a content creator. I was not streaming this run, after politely requesting they not snipe beforehand I said nothing to them and didn't interact with them, and yet I am mentioned by name as an attempt to garner sympathy.

You are not victims to some big mean organised run attempting to ruin your day. You just didn't like the way an interaction played out, and decided to embellish it to rile up emotion. Good luck in the future.

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Called it, literally by the letter.

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Originally Posted by Andevom

It doesn't seem like they were ever given an offer to collaborate - they were flat out told "you can be here if you want, but we're not treating you as members of our team".

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Well no, because they had 2 other people that had planned to enter who were actually at the same prog point and probably had the raid roles assigned to them already.

But once it's done they kinda have to collaborate... and so do the individuals trying to snipe a position. If that isn't happening, the safest and most logical thing to do is leave them dead.

As for why they should be allowed to plan to enter ahead of time - it's because it's high-end content as I explained. SE left their high-end calling card on it.

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

I mean sure but it also reveals the incredible underlying toxicity of some of the no life HC community when they are defending content and behavior that excludes 90% of the playerbase. You give them the benefit of the doubt that they where running around 'aimlessly' and that decisions wheren't made to kill them and not raise them from the get go, I do not and I have heard some of the VCS.

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This is the "strategy" advocated by a well-known, bald streamer. I'd put folding money on this being implemented in this specific case.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well no, because they had 2 other people that had planned to enter who were actually at the same prog point and probably had the raid roles assigned to them already.

But once it's done they kinda have to collaborate... and so do the individuals trying to snipe a position. If that isn't happening, the safest and most logical thing to do is leave them dead.

As for why they should be allowed to plan to enter ahead of time - it's because it's high-end content as I explained. SE left their high-end calling card on it.

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How is simply trying to enter FFA content "sniping"?

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Originally Posted by DoubleJustice

This post is blatantly a bad faith attempt at painting the discords as evil spiteful content mongering overlords.

Multiple people have already pointed it out, but that boss's tank buster isn't something that a tank could use to target snipe one individual without cleaving half the party. They have claims of people being rude, but the only screenshot they provide is people asking them not to join.

Whatever your stance on sniping/discords/entitlement whatever. It's obvious this person is an actual literal troll whose goal was to be a problem, either by griefing the raid or later by coming to forums and making a "whole hearted appeal about respecting each other's right to public content DX."

Like they very obviously targeted a streamer intentionally, called them out BY NAME, and then wrote in a passive victim voice, while twisting as much of the story to cater to false preconceptions of people who haven't studied nor step foot into the content.

Shame on you OP.

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I mean they are actually spiteful gatekeeping snobs though. The strategy of leaving randoms for dead and calling them snipers from the get go is well established in NA. Also go read some of the comments in other threads where people are complaining about FT entry system by these same people literally bragging and posing ultimatums and then tell me about 'shameful' behavior.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

How is simply trying to enter FFA content "sniping"?

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Because it's not FFA content. SE left their high-end calling card on it.

But want to do it FFA, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you! Go and enter with 24 randoms and see how far you get. 99% of the time, you won't even see discords trying to go in there - there is plenty of time for you to approach it during the weather and ask 23 others to join you.

And once you wipe immediately you'll probably change your mind about it being "FFA" content.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

How is simply trying to enter FFA content "sniping"?

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Would that person have tried to enter if the 48 person premade weren't also going in?
Would they even be able to enter if at least 16 out of the 48 person premade didn't offer up a cipher? No.. they wouldn't.

snipers are free to snipe.. it it's FFA content. Having said that, said sniper shouldn't be surprised that the response inside (especially if the sniper got a spot at the expense of someone else in the premade) isn't going to be some warm welcome. Getting inside is FFA, but they aren't entitled to a party invite.. especially if they joining a run where the other 47 are much further ahead in terms of prog.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

How is simply trying to enter FFA content "sniping"?

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There's the literal way to look at this, as in yes you are literally capable of just joining Forked Tower whenever, freely.

Then there's the practical way, in that you shouldn't be doing that shit because the content is too difficult to not coordinate, especially if a group politely communicates to you beforehand (using this whole OP situation as the example).

Either way SquareEnix is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because it's not FFA content. SE left their high-end calling card on it.

But want to do it FFA, go ahead. Nobody is stopping you! Go and enter with 24 randoms and see how far you get. 99% of the time, you won't even see discords trying to go in there - there is plenty of time for you to approach it during the weather and ask 23 others to join you.

And once you wipe immediately you'll probably change your mind about it being "FFA" content.

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Except it is FFA. The entry conditions is literally FFA. The content inside FT doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by DoubleJustice

This post is blatantly a bad faith attempt at painting the discords as evil spiteful content mongering overlords.

...They have claims of people being rude, but the only screenshot they provide is people asking them not to join.
...

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A certain streamer, who I won't name because they can be really nasty and use their power to publicly shame and attack people, and so frankly I'm afraid of them, (this is as close as I want to come to provoking them to going on the attack, i don't even think it's too defend their ego is because they can and they enjoy it) , literally suggested discord as the solution, for certain content, to deal with problem players. (And I don't want to hear "'not this' kind of problem player, 'that' kind of problem player". That's as much as they effectively said. That's what some will have heard. They need to get better at being a communicator otherwise. Especially if they are going be a creator.)

Furthermore, my experience of discords... logs logs logs. Sometimes they were being helpful. Othertimes, I had to gaslight myself to see it that way. It soils the game for me, and I'm not interested in making the effort to change my psychology on that.
I have a great time.
Then i look at someone's log. I feel shit. And I wind up preferring I'd never played because i spent my time to come away feeling bad.
The only difference? Those bloody logs.
So sod impersonal discords.

As for asking people not to join?!!
How bloody rude!

Just think how someone is supposed to 'feel' upon being asking not to join?
Maybe some of you out there really are psychopaths and not just sociopaths? Maybe some of you really wouldn't 'feel' a thing if you were asked not to join, ater youd really got your 'hopes' and 'excitement' up to finally see the new contents show piece. (Whatever hope and excitement might feel like to a psycopath.)

If your premade joins an instance with a 'rando', you can make the best of it, still enjoy playing the game, still enjoy doing your best. You get to have something, rather than the nothing your leaving the rando why when you tell them they not wanted.
"You see what you need to understand is, so that I can have everything, you do have to make do with nothing. Sorry, I don't make the rules. Oh sorry wait, that's the wrong way round, i meant 'not' sorry, I 'do' make the rules"
Fk off you rude selfish bstrds. Go play another game if you don't like it.
People would absolutely be better off with not getting in because of no players, rather than not getting in and having a fellow player tell them they are excluded.
Bloody sociopaths the lot of you.

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Except it is FFA. The entry conditions is literally FFA. The content inside FT doesn't change that.

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Then what's the problem? Go and enter with 24 randoms then. Why is this a thread if that is true?

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Either way SquareEnix is wrong.

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A 1000% this

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

I mean they are actually spiteful gatekeeping snobs though. The strategy of leaving randoms for dead and calling them snipers from the get go is well established in NA. Also go read some of the comments in other threads where people are complaining about FT entry system by these same people literally bragging and posing ultimatums and then tell me about 'shameful' behavior.

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you can't have it both ways
you think randoms are entitled to a raise by others in a premade, but also the randoms shouldn't a. study or b. join the discord to ensure they're on the same page as everyone else?
you know the very same people that allowed for the random to even get inside FT in the first place.. cause the random isn't offering up 16 ciphers themselves.

how is the random getting inside FT, unless they rely on members of the premade to offer ciphers

do tell

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Then what's the problem? Go and enter with 24 randoms then. Why is this a thread if that is true?

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Because it shouldn't be FFA, with the way the content is actually designed. Except it is. Do you see the problem here?

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Originally Posted by ChrysOCE

Because it shouldn't be FFA, with the way the content is actually designed. Except it is. Do you see the problem here?

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You can read my other posts for the answer to that.

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Originally Posted by Bryson

you can't have it both ways
you think randoms are entitled to a raise by others in a premade, but also the randoms shouldn't a. study or b. join the discord to ensure they're on the same page as everyone else?
you know the very same people that allowed for the random to even get inside FT in the first place.. cause the random isn't offering up 16 ciphers themselves.

how is the random getting inside FT, unless they rely on members of the premade to offer ciphers

do tell

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They aren't in part because discord gatekeepers have created an environment wherein the whole OC instance is scared to pug the raid as it was designed btw. It is a pug entry design like cll and dalriada, it's not a premade entry design. At any rate it's pretty expected and normal for unsuspecting randoms to try enter the raid when a lot of people suddenly show up on the platform. Being hostile to them and calling them snipers and wanting to murder and not raise them , is still a choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by itachi-otsutsuki

They aren't in part because discord gatekeepers have created an environment wherein the whole OC instance is scared to pug the raid as it was designed btw. It is a pug entry design like cll and dalriada, it's not a premade entry design. At any rate it's pretty expected and normal for unsuspecting randoms to try enter the raid when a lot of people suddenly show up on the platform. Being hostile to them and calling them snipers and wanting to murder and not raise them , is still a choice.

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you didn't answer any of my questions though?

1. How is the random getting inside FT, unless they rely on members of the premade to offer ciphers (requires at least 16 ciphers)
2. Why is the random going in with a premade, entitled to a raise?

you're conflating what they intended, with the reality of the situation.