They are gutting Black Mage even more in 7.2

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Originally Posted by Auro_Seldaris

I'm sorry it makes it "unfun" for you, personally, to play. Please, ignore the fact that it's my main and I love it dearly as is. What do I , a BLM main since I started playing in Heavensward, matter? What does the class fantasy of having to trade cast times for superior damage, matter at all? It's all about YOUR personal feelings about a job you don't even main, and Yoshida should piss my goodwill and love for it away just to satisfy your selfish needs. Ignore the fact that I enjoy working within its limitations, ingnore that I love it and get the biggest rush when I finally understand a fight and learn the exact moments to use my abilities to tap-dance around the boss, evade its attacks and STILL get to keep my casts rolling. Please continue with your egotistical self-centered desires. Please destroy it, instead of just acknowledging it's not for you personally.

WoW gets expansions that actually expand the game's content and core systems, adding new systems and features and shaking up the status quo every time. They even get WoW Classic, in multiple flavors, to boot.

Meanwhile, I apparently registered for Final Fantasy XIV: Lowest Common Denominator Edition.

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"You don't know what it's like to have your favourite job ruined!"

Bard main from Day 1 in Heavensward, until Shadowbringers, and a very reluctant Dancer main currently.

I'm not getting Endwalker Dancer back, which is my single most beloved iteration of ANY job over the last 10 years I've played this game. Did you REALLY think your beloved job was somehow immune to having questionable design decisions pushed onto it? Just because your chosen main was the lead dev's pet job for a decade? Anyone with an ounce of foresight knew Black Mage was next with the rework stick the second Picto ate their lunch.

I get it, I really do. Sometimes the devs don't always cook, sometimes it's your main that suffers. Lord knows they burned the kitchen with Bard for 2 expansions straight, and the less said about whatever Bowmage was, the better.

"I think the cast time changes are neat if a bit overdone" and "I think the timer removal was completely unnecessary and removes skill expression" are both stances a reasonable person can still hold, that reasonable person being me.

Oh, and the next job getting reworked is probably going to be Bard, just saying. Jobs's been mid for 3 expansions in a row, Dancer ate the job's lunch back in Shadowbringers, and we're pretty much guaranteed a Phys Ranged for the next job.

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Did you REALLY think your beloved job was somehow immune to having questionable design decisions pushed onto it? Just because your chosen main was the lead dev's pet job for a decade? Anyone with an ounce of foresight knew Black Mage was next with the rework stick the second Picto ate their lunch.

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"Don't complain about your job being gutted because you should've seen it coming"

https://i.ibb.co/DP8gXLMJ/what.webp

If your main got gutted years ago and you got ignored or shouted down for complaining about it back then it's honestly understandable to be a little salty

I get it's not a healthy mindset but ngl I thought yall kinda deserved it the when I saw folks saying it's now as braindead as WHM

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Originally Posted by ElysiumDragon

Did you REALLY think your beloved job was somehow immune to having questionable design decisions pushed onto it? Just because your chosen main was the lead dev's pet job for a decade? Anyone with an ounce of foresight knew Black Mage was next with the rework stick the second Picto ate their lunch.

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/5VlJ5_Ww4...right-then.gif

The real answer here is that Picto shouldn't actually exist. "Let's make a caster who has all these flexible burst damage options and who can prime their rotation before they even start the fight. Surely that won't affect caster balance at all." Any dev worth their salt should have seen the consequences of releasing it and said, "No, it's just going to eff up caster job balance even more. We're not doing this." But Yoshida doesn't care anymore, there's literally no room in the Spreadsheet Hell he runs to alter any plan once it's been implemented, and besides, he's barely even paying attention to the game anymore.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

If your main got gutted years ago and you got ignored or shouted down for complaining about it back then it's honestly understandable to be a little salty

I get it's not a healthy mindset but ngl I thought yall kinda deserved it the when I saw folks saying it's now as braindead as WHM

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Point 1: Sure, be a little salty about it, fine. Human nature. You know what you should have actually done? Quit the game. You should have already drawn a hard line and left. Instead most people are content to just take in the arse and just whine about it. I'm actually doing something about it. I've already canceled my sub. Actions speak louder than words.

Point 2: Are you talking about BLM players here? Can't be mad that everyone is slowly being lobotomized and ruined over time, everyone should be shit so I can laugh about it. Oh, how very mature of you. Petulant child.

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Originally Posted by Auro_Seldaris

Point 2: Oh, how very mature of you. Petulant child.

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hey I said it's not a healthy mindset. I'm just saying it did cross my mind

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

hey I said it's not a healthy mindset. I'm just saying it did cross my mind

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Fair enough, but maybe you should keep that kind of childishness to yourself. THAT'S an example of REAL negativity, the kind of negativity we don't actually need to see here. All you're going to do is encourage trolling.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

"Don't complain about your job being gutted because you should've seen it coming"

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Not specifically you, but maybe parts of the community shouldn't have told Healers to shut up and heal when they've been trying to get the Devs attention at how boring and easy the gameplay is. The broken trinity system and healer role being simplified expansion after expansion was a giant arse red flag at how the Devs were planning to design jobs around.

JP players are the worst offenders with defending such trash gameplay. Praising the developers and hailing the brain dead healer gameplay as the best thing for the game, so the fact that DPS jobs are now receiving the same treatment is absolutely hilarious.

Sucks that it has to be this way, but a large portion of the community asked for this. Now that the DPS jobs are getting hit by the trashification stick, and maybe the playerbase will learn before they kill off the game completely.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Not specifically you, but maybe parts of the community shouldn't have told Healers to shut up and heal when they've been trying to get the Devs attention at how boring and easy the gameplay is. The broken trinity system and healer role being simplified expansion after expansion was a giant arse red flag at how the Devs were planning to design jobs around.

JP players are the worst offenders with defending such trash gameplay. Praising the developers and hailing the brain dead healer gameplay as the best thing for the game, so the fact that DPS jobs are now receiving the same treatment is absolutely hilarious.

Sucks that it has to be this way, but a large portion of the community asked for this. Now that the DPS jobs are getting hit by the trashification stick, and maybe the playerbase will learn before they kill off the game completely.

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I just don't think that's productive to keep grudges.

Although, I'm not sure I care anymore when I don't think the game can get better anyways lmao. But if you do it's just not useful to hold grudges.

They are getting picto treatment. Well player complain about dmg, here you go a rework. Enjoy dmg for sake of gameplay. Wait and see blm being good and player will play it because aint fun it's meta. If FRU wasnt testament of players playing meta then idk.

Has CBU3 explained WHY they are making these changes?

I don't mean "it allows better uptime", "it increases mobility" , "it improves adaptability"
I mean "use of BLMs in ultimate was very poor" , or "we wanted to design this novel mechanic for ultimate but it would have been impossible for them current BLM", "our encounter designers requested it as BLM was making life harder for them"

I'm interested in what CBU3 have said, not what the community thinks is the obvious reason why.

Yes they think it's making better, obviously. Butt a lot of things would make the game better. What made this important enough to actually do?

I remember that Yoshi was once reported to have said "[communication with players is really important]" .. It seems communication is not very good now.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Has CBU3 explained WHY they are making these changes?

I don't mean "it allows better uptime", "it increases mobility" , "it improves adaptability"
I mean "use of BLMs in ultimate was very poor" , or "we wanted to design this novel mechanic for ultimate but it would have been impossible for them current BLM", "our encounter designers requested it as BLM was making life harder for them"

I'm interested in what CBU3 have said, not what the community thinks is the obvious reason why.

Yes they think it's making better, obviously. Butt a lot of things would make the game better. What made this important enough to actually do?

I remember that Yoshi was once reported to have said "[communication with players is really important]" .. It seems communication is not very good now.

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We'll probably get an idea when the patch notes drop and the job guides are updated
If you scroll down and click on the 7.1 overview, they briefly touch on why some of the changes are made
https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Has CBU3 explained WHY they are making these changes?

I don't mean "it allows better uptime", "it increases mobility" , "it improves adaptability"
I mean "use of BLMs in ultimate was very poor" , or "we wanted to design this novel mechanic for ultimate but it would have been impossible for them current BLM", "our encounter designers requested it as BLM was making life harder for them"

I'm interested in what CBU3 have said, not what the community thinks is the obvious reason why.

Yes they think it's making better, obviously. Butt a lot of things would make the game better. What made this important enough to actually do?

I remember that Yoshi was once reported to have said "[communication with players is really important]" .. It seems communication is not very good now.

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They said that the reworks in ShB and EW were to make it easier for them to design fights where certain jobs weren't significantly better than others, so it wouldn't surprise me if that's also the case here.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Has CBU3 explained WHY they are making these changes?

I don't mean "it allows better uptime", "it increases mobility" , "it improves adaptability"
I mean "use of BLMs in ultimate was very poor" , or "we wanted to design this novel mechanic for ultimate but it would have been impossible for them current BLM", "our encounter designers requested it as BLM was making life harder for them"

I'm interested in what CBU3 have said, not what the community thinks is the obvious reason why.

Yes they think it's making better, obviously. Butt a lot of things would make the game better. What made this important enough to actually do?

I remember that Yoshi was once reported to have said "[communication with players is really important]" .. It seems communication is not very good now.

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They hate the players lmao

They hate people figuring out a 0.2% DPS boost that they didn't expect.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

They are getting picto treatment. Well player complain about dmg, here you go a rework. Enjoy dmg for sake of gameplay. Wait and see blm being good and player will play it because aint fun it's meta. If FRU wasnt testament of players playing meta then idk.

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AST has been meta for god knows how long, but always saw really low playrates compared to WHM (presumably because WHM just 'did the job' and allowed players to focus more on learning the mechanics of the fight)

AST gets massively simplified in DT (presumably to try and incentivise players to try using it instead of defaulting to WHM)

AST still has really low playrate compared to WHM (in Savage/EX trial)

So now we have a job that has lost sight of its identity, and seemingly gained nothing from the trade.

But hey, at least AST seems to have more playrate in FRU than WHM does. So, the question is, are people actually playing AST because it's now more appealing to play, or is it just a case of 'it is better mathematically because it has raidbuff actions that benefit massively from downtimes (as they're still able to tick through their CD while in a downtime)? I think, when we look at Ultimate, Savage, and even the EX trial data on 'who's playing what' the answer is pretty obvious

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

AST has been meta for god knows how long, but always saw really low playrates compared to WHM (presumably because WHM just 'did the job' and allowed players to focus more on learning the mechanics of the fight)

AST gets massively simplified in DT (presumably to try and incentivise players to try using it instead of defaulting to WHM)

AST still has really low playrate compared to WHM (in Savage/EX trial)

So now we have a job that has lost sight of its identity, and seemingly gained nothing from the trade.

But hey, at least AST seems to have more playrate in FRU than WHM does. So, the question is, are people actually playing AST because it's now more appealing to play, or is it just a case of 'it is better mathematically because it has raidbuff actions that benefit massively from downtimes (as they're still able to tick through their CD while in a downtime)? I think, when we look at Ultimate, Savage, and even the EX trial data on 'who's playing what' the answer is pretty obvious

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The data scientists (if they even have a data scientist) at Square Enix must have failed Stat 101 or something because even the worst data scientist would understand that playrates are a very imperfect and imprecise construct. The idea of "construct validity" appears to be completely foreign to SE.

Moreover, Square Enix treats player preferences as homogeneous and acts that way. They design their game to cater to what they think is the average player preference, which is nothing short of idiotic because aggregate player "enjoyment" is a function of heterogeneous preferences.

The simplifications were never about "letting new players get into the job more easily".
They just can't balance the Ultimates anymore with jobs that can have hundreds of improvised rotations.
The same went for the DoT jobs and AST randomness.

They can only allow B3 B4 F3 F4x6 (Paradox in between) D FS, or else.
It wouldn't surprise me if they decided to remove the Firestarter buff once you move to UI to get rid of Transpose-F3 for the extra damage.

How long until leylines are gigantic like pictos or just become a passive in combat effect y'think

Thinking about it is there possible other changes we don't know about as black mage wasn't mentioned despite major changes happening. I do recall them saying something about 7.2 in terms of balance but I don't know if that was a rumour or what

Now I'm kind of worried on what else is going to be effected.

Did bro get banned or why is the OP's Name "User202503201232" now?

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Did bro get banned or why is the OP's Name "User202503201232" now?

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It happens to them pretty frequently. They're used to it.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Did bro get banned or why is the OP's Name "User202503201232" now?

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I mean.... it took them long enough to react to their forum username at least..xd

I feel like the devs goal here is to make everything more actionish since this is what the kids nowadays want. By the time the next expansion comes out all classes are mobile and run around like Bard and just perma shoot shit so the kids don't get bored and no longer have to watch TikTok Videos while playing to stay focused.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

I mean.... it took them long enough to react to their forum username at least..xd

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I'm surprised it took that long. Was funny for a while.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Thinking about it is there possible other changes we don't know about as black mage wasn't mentioned despite major changes happening. I do recall them saying something about 7.2 in terms of balance but I don't know if that was a rumour or what

Now I'm kind of worried on what else is going to be effected.

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I won't hold my breath. I'm expecting similar changes to other busy jobs like SAM, BRD and RPR.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I won't hold my breath. I'm expecting similar changes to other busy jobs like SAM, BRD and RPR.

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I almost certainly expect if anything does happen gameplaywise it will be making another job easier. So I'm not really looking forward to it.

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Originally Posted by xbahax92

I won't hold my breath. I'm expecting similar changes to other busy jobs like SAM, BRD and RPR.

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They've already dumbed down BRD multiple times now, so who knows.

That being said, I remember when people all said "there's no more room for them to dumb down MCH even further", and somehow they still managed that lol.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

They've already dumbed down BRD multiple times now, so who knows.

That being said, I remember when people all said "there's no more room for them to dumb down MCH even further", and somehow they still managed that lol.

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BRD is the Job that has "barely" seen any changes since SB compared to other Jobs. At least in Singletarget.

Dot duration from 30s to 45s.
Song procs 80% flat instead of Dot crits. (Made BRD enjoyable in Partys without DRG and SCH)
Song duration adjusted to fit in the boring 2 Min Meta.
Barrage giving a Refulgent proc instead of having to fish for it.
Empyreal Arrow being a Ability and not a ogcd weaponskill anymore. (Only relevant for Barrage)
Sidewinder not increased by Dots
Removal of foe requiem.

Hypothetically. You could give the current lvl 70 Bard to some bardmain back in the days and the person wouldn't noticed anything immediately except the duration changes and the missing requiem.
Bard pretty much plays the same and i hope it stays that way. Lets hope they dont remove BRD dots in the future.

Edit: Nvm forgot Miserys End. SE give us Miserys End back please. Was fun.

Speaking of bard, quoting myself from another thread:

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- Burst shot into Refulgent arrow is now a guaranteed combo. Ladon Bite into Shadowbite is now a guaranteed combo.
- Repertoire has been deleted, and PP/Bloodletter/RoD are now simple OGCDs on a 15s recast.
- Refulgent Arrow / Shadowbite now grant 5 gauge.
- Apex Arrow is now on a 60s strict recast.
- Radiant Finale now grants 80 gauge.
- Dots consolidated into a single one and IJs has been removed.
- Songs are now exclusively used to decide which OGCD is available (PP/BLoodletter/RoD), and to unlock Radiant Finale as currently.

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Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Speaking of bard, quoting myself from another thread:



Please look forward to it.

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Those oGCDs better be the same ability with different particle effects, or you're allowing a dangerous amount of choice and room for optimization in the song order.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Hypothetically. You could give the current lvl 70 Bard to some bardmain back in the days and the person wouldn't noticed anything immediately except the duration changes and the missing requiem.
Bard pretty much plays the same and i hope it stays that way. Lets hope they dont remove BRD dots in the future.

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The funny part is, despite barely changing since 4.0 a Stormblood bard main could immediately tell you as soon as they use Wanderer's Minuet.

The simple change of making Repertoire procs no longer tied to your dot crits changed the feeling of the job massively.

Give BRD repertoire procs back (and give it a Bane while you're at it)

god I miss endlessly raining arrows on trash pulls

Future battle design may cause difficulty with casting spells, so we have shortened the cast time for a variety of actions. Furthermore, the effect expiration of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice has been largely detrimental to attack power in situations where players must interrupt casting to address battle mechanics. For this reason, these statuses will no longer expire.

In Patch 7.1, Ley Lines became a charge-based action, which has resulted in movement restriction lasting longer than intended, so we have reduced its duration.

In light of all these changes, we have generally amplified black mage's firepower by increasing attack potency and adjusting the trait Enochian.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Future battle design may cause difficulty with casting spells, so we have shortened the cast time for a variety of actions. Furthermore, the effect expiration of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice has been largely detrimental to attack power in situations where players must interrupt casting to address battle mechanics. For this reason, these statuses will no longer expire.

In Patch 7.1, Ley Lines became a charge-based action, which has resulted in movement restriction lasting longer than intended, so we have reduced its duration.

In light of all these changes, we have generally amplified black mage's firepower by increasing attack potency and adjusting the trait Enochian.

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EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME MUST BOW DOWN IN FRONT OF THE ALMIGHTY DDR RAID DESIGN

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Future battle design may cause difficulty with casting spells, so we have shortened the cast time for a variety of actions. Furthermore, the effect expiration of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice has been largely detrimental to attack power in situations where players must interrupt casting to address battle mechanics. For this reason, these statuses will no longer expire.

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Wow, we're so lucky to have the devs noticed the immobile caster was immobile! It'd be a shame if that caster stayed immobile though, we can't have that

I've never seen a worst justification of job murdering than this one, and I've played a lot of MMORPGs. Players dropping their enochian so they can't hit the boss and do less damage? How's this a big deal? They'll learn the fight and they'll be able to do every mechs without spell interrupting. Like we've always done it. Ah but right, we can't have that too, of course, no failures allowed, only success even if that means the game must almost played by itself.
Can't wait for next patches to give every caster instant cast on all of their spell too, after all, we're dropping our cast too when dodging a mechanic for the first time right? Don't forget the enormous EW hitbox to come back, melee have to hit the boss 24/24 too or they'll get sad

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Originally Posted by Wawaya

Wow, we're so lucky to have the devs noticed the immobile caster was immobile! It'd be a shame if that caster stayed immobile though, we can't have that

I've never seen a worst justification of job murdering than this one, and I've played a lot of MMORPGs. Players dropping their enochian so they can't hit the boss and do less damage? How's this a big deal? They'll learn the fight and they'll be able to do every mechs without spell interrupting. Like we've always done it. Ah but right, we can't have that too, of course, no failures allowed, only success even if that means the game must almost played by itself.

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No difficulty or optimization potential in job design! This is only allowed in fight design! That's is the CS3 way.
Considering Yoshi-P said something about them having gone too far in terms of job simplifications roughly a year ago, I don't see how we can take anything he says serious anymore.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Considering Yoshi-P said something about them having gone too far in terms of job simplifications roughly a year ago, I don't see how we can take anything he says serious anymore.

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I think he was talking specifically about the content design, not the job design. And it's the content he's trying to address at the moment.

But since he has declared 8.0 as the expansion that will focus on job design in a number of ways (skill tree tease, making them unique tease, etc), they'll have to confront this sentiment eventually.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think he was talking specifically about the content design, not the job design. And it's the content he's trying to address at the moment.

But since he has declared 8.0 as the expansion that will focus on job design in a number of ways (skill tree tease, making them unique tease, etc), they'll have to confront this sentiment eventually.

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No, he specifically was talking about the jobs.

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In an attempt to curb multiple updates' worth of simplification, Yoshi-P details how Square Enix "will be incorporating various changes" post-Dawntrail, some of which will be "related to the skill rotations." He even jokes that Kaiten could return as "Kaiten 2" and reiterates his earlier promise - come such changes, classes "will not be more simple."

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The bit that patch 7.2 would mark a change in job design was a mistranslation in this article, but the rest is pretty much what he said. Yes, they wanted to work on content design first, but fact remains that he promised jobs would not become more simple. And yet here we are.

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Originally Posted by Wawaya

Wow, we're so lucky to have the devs noticed the immobile caster was immobile! It'd be a shame if that caster stayed immobile though, we can't have that

I've never seen a worst justification of job murdering than this one, and I've played a lot of MMORPGs. Players dropping their enochian so they can't hit the boss and do less damage? How's this a big deal? They'll learn the fight and they'll be able to do every mechs without spell interrupting. Like we've always done it. Ah but right, we can't have that too, of course, no failures allowed, only success even if that means the game must almost played by itself.
Can't wait for next patches to give every caster instant cast on all of their spell too, after all, we're dropping our cast too when dodging a mechanic for the first time right? Don't forget the enormous EW hitbox to come back, melee have to hit the boss 24/24 too or they'll get sad

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Gotta remove positionals too. Not being able to get the extra 50 potency on Gekko because a boss was doing a backwards half-room or something just made me want to delete the soul crystal.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

No difficulty or optimization potential in job design! This is only allowed in fight design! That's is the CS3 way.
Considering Yoshi-P said something about them having gone too far in terms of job simplifications roughly a year ago, I don't see how we can take anything he says serious anymore.

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Like, if he was actually serious about that statement, and they have legitimate plans to overhaul every job to restore its sense of identity in 8.0, how does he think tripling down on homogenization during the 7.x patches will help that? If it were up to me, I would think it would make more sense to start restoring job identity piecemeal during the patches before the "big leap" in 8.0. From all appearances, they’re simplifying and homogenizing the jobs to cater to the "more challenging raid content," but if they actually follow through on a serious overhaul of the jobs in 8.0, they’ll want to revisit the encounter design again after that because the overhauled jobs will no longer “fit” with the encounter design.

This is why it’s a fool's errand to try and work on encounter design in a vacuum separated from job design. The two are intrinsically linked, and if you don’t build one with consideration for the other, you end up in a cycle of “fix encounters-fix jobs-fix encounters-fix jobs…” ad infinitum.