7.0 Tank Wishlist

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Didn't Holmgang used to be 6s duration? When did they extend it up to 10s? lmao. Also remembered bolide to be 8s long.

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Yes all tank invulns were standardised to 10 seconds in EW, it used to be old living dead’s one big strength and holmgang’s one big weakness as you couldn’t fully invuln say…..E10’s monotonous tankbuster

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Yes all tank invulns were standardised to 10 seconds in EW, it used to be old living dead’s one big strength and holmgang’s one big weakness as you couldn’t fully invuln say…..E10’s monotonous tankbuster

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There was also the part where Holmgang rooted you in place and needed a target for it's 6 yalm range, making it impossible to invuln mechanics that still required you to move, be at a certain distance or had the boss untargetable. Don't ask me why they got rid of it, they probably didn't think about why either.

Holmgang's root effect was coupled to a draw-in effect. This also had the unintended situational benefit of cancelling some otherwise uninterruptable mob actions. As a result, the effect was removed alongside all other player generated PvE draw-in/knockback effects in 5.0 (Blank Shot/Backdraft/Shockwave/Fluid Aura's knockback). Holmgang's recast was increased by a minute at the same time. The duration increased to 8 seconds in 5.1 and 10 seconds in 6.0.

Tank invulns are a textbook example of why partial homogenization is worse than complete homogenization. The more similar you make two actions, the easier it is to mathematically determine a clear winner. It's fine to want to preserve the 'flavor', but the spread of recasts is too big at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Holmgang's root effect was coupled to a draw-in effect. This also had the unintended situational benefit of cancelling some otherwise uninterruptable mob actions.

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I do remember that Holmgang's draw-in was an issue in ARR but I do not remember it even being a problem anymore before it's removal in ShB, they simply made bosses immune to it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Holmgang's root effect was coupled to a draw-in effect. This also had the unintended situational benefit of cancelling some otherwise uninterruptable mob actions. As a result, the effect was removed alongside all other player generated PvE draw-in/knockback effects in 5.0 (Blank Shot/Backdraft/Shockwave/Fluid Aura's knockback). Holmgang's recast was increased by a minute at the same time.

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Bring back PvE Draw-in/knockback. The less damage tanks take the better. I don't care HOW we we mitigate it so long as we can mitigate it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Holmgang's root effect was coupled to a draw-in effect. This also had the unintended situational benefit of cancelling some otherwise uninterruptable mob actions. As a result, the effect was removed alongside all other player generated PvE draw-in/knockback effects in 5.0 (Blank Shot/Backdraft/Shockwave/Fluid Aura's knockback). Holmgang's recast was increased by a minute at the same time. The duration increased to 8 seconds in 5.1 and 10 seconds in 6.0.

Tank invulns are a textbook example of why partial homogenization is worse than complete homogenization. The more similar you make two actions, the easier it is to mathematically determine a clear winner. It's fine to want to preserve the 'flavor', but the spread of recasts is too big at the moment.

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Gotta love how when faced with a problem like this they just make the entire game worse as a solution for no real benefit.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Gotta love how when faced with a problem like this they just make the entire game worse as a solution for no real benefit.

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I would literally pay money to see the game code that makes it more viable to delete the possibility of several gameplay mechanics entirely than to simply allow bosses to move while casting. Because it would fix so many problems with the state of tanking if bosses didn't need to be glued to the ground for every castbar.

Random sound off...

Warrior:
Give them a large HP pool; reduce their mitigation %'s on abillities but give them +dmg% while said mitigations are active that scale with lost health; leave Bloodwhetting as it is to make warriors need to think if they want to use it to give up some damage.

Paladin
Give Paladin strong reactives that proc based on shield block once a set amount are collected have their basic absolution combo turn into the Confiteor; give them a 5 min CD raise spell.

Dark Knight
Give them a buff that heals them based on the damage dealt by their "Dark Pact" ally; Dark Pact would be a 30 sec buff on a 60 sec CD. Have Dark Pact provide other benefits based on the useage of other abilities like Shadow Bringer, Bloodletter etc.

Gunbreaker
Give Gunbreakers the ability to pool more cartridges and a CD to instantly reload them.

Mind you the 2 min meta tends to make these all pipe dreams.

A class that has an invuln should never have a rezz

And a tank who's unkillable and can solo a lot of content does not deserve further dps improvement.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I would literally pay money to see the game code that makes it more viable to delete the possibility of several gameplay mechanics entirely than to simply allow bosses to move while casting. Because it would fix so many problems with the state of tanking if bosses didn't need to be glued to the ground for every castbar.

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The subforum had this discussion about fixing mob movement at length back in Stormblood, but nothing ever came of it. I would be happy if mobs and bosses could even just autoattack and cleave continuously while moving. The stutterstep jank is especially obvious if you compare FFXIV's mob movement to a game like Warcraft (and a larger mob auto-attack range doesn't really hide it).

If they, for some reason, can't fix that I'd even be fine if they just spawned an invisible clone that autos the tank as long as it fixes the stutter step.

My wishlist:
WAR:
- Inner Release grants Skill speed!
- Every 3 Fell Cleaves you get to use a new GCD attack.
PLD:
- Atonement combo action
- Clemency becomes oGCD but consumes 1500 MP.
GNB:
- Meditate alternative so you can charge up bullets in downtime.
- Fated Circle continuation and a Double Down combo action
DRK:
- Too much, look at the DRK megathread and rework the job. Please. Its an incoherent mess, and even defensively its really bad without any recovery.

You could fix GNB's resource issues entirely just by getting rid of the cartridge cost on Doubledown. You only ever overcap cartridges once every 2 minutes meaning if you mess that up you're going into drift hell. I really don't think GNB needs any further adjustment beyond that, and if you wanted to keep it from being too free, just add a condition to doubledown that you have to be under the effect of No Mercy to use it.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

You could fix GNB's resource issues entirely just by getting rid of the cartridge cost on Doubledown. You only ever overcap cartridges once every 2 minutes meaning if you mess that up you're going into drift hell. I really don't think GNB needs any further adjustment beyond that, and if you wanted to keep it from being too free, just add a condition to doubledown that you have to be under the effect of No Mercy to use it.

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A while ago, I posted a maybe unhinged concept for being able to manually refund a cartridge after using Gnashing Fang, or Double Down so maybe something like that could be fun, and achieve similar results.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

A while ago, I posted a maybe unhinged concept for being able to manually refund a cartridge after using Gnashing Fang, or Double Down so maybe something like that could be fun, and achieve similar results.

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The problem with those is getting the resources in the first place, not so much an issue for Gnashing Fang but certainly for Double Down.

Gunbreaker has a unique problem in that it actually needs to build up resources for it's burst and, unlike the other tanks, suffers in any fight with long periods of downtime where you can't hit anything, a problem that only got amplified with the addition of the 3rd cartridge and Double Down. (No CBU3, that does not mean you should make No Mercy another copy of Inner Release)
It was less severe when you only needed to build up two cartridges and at worst you'd lose a Burst Strike.

A potentially whacky thing they could for GNB is give Solid Barrel a 'Double Barrel' trait where you now gain two cartridges.

Only thing I need from dawntrail:
Warrior: Inner Release turns into Primal Rend when activated. Paladin and Gunbreaker already have similar button condensing with Confiteor combos & Continuation combos. I currently use a macro that uses Inner Release, then Primal Rend if you press it a 2nd time as a remedy to this.

Some extra Ideas:
Dark Knight: All tanks got massive mitigation upgrades to their primary mit buttons at lv.82 and DRK got a button bloat -10 dt lol. Replace Oblation with a job trait for TBN that applies Dread Spikes when it breaks at Lv.82. Dread Spikes applies a buff where each hit you receive grants a stack and heals after 5 seconds depending on how many stacks you built up. Some form of healing for dungeons would be nice and this is a way to give them a unique heal while sticking to their job aesthetic. It would be a nice callback to FFXI's DRK also! An alternate option is to enhance the Dark Arts effect granted to augment Flood of Shadows/Edge of Shadows to apply a heal effect. That's basically a worse warrior though and feels super lazy.
Gunbreaker & Dark Knight: Get rid of magic specific mitigation. It's just clunky design that doesn't work unless you already know the fight to know what is or isn't a magical attack. Near useless for a majority of dungeons also.

- Fight or Flight is upgraded to Spirit's Within then is upgraded to Expiacion.
- Revert Goring Blade to be a DoT applying combo action from Riot Blade. Combo'ed Goring Blade also gives Divine Might and Sword Oath.
- Rework Circle of Scorn to be a combo action from Total Eclipse that does damage and applies a DoT. Combo'ed Circle of Scorn also gives Divine Might.
- bring back Shield Swipe as magic attacks are now blockable. Allow it to hold up to 3 charges via trait. Blocking an attack lowers the cooldown of Shield Swipe.
- Cover to get a trait where if the PLD receives a total of 50% of its max HP from redirected damage, the PLD gets healed for 1000 potency. Will only proc once per usage of Cover. Cover can also block redirected damage.
- remove damage from Intervene and add 25 oath gauge cost. Lower its cooldown to 5 seconds
- add a trait to Shield Bash where it will get its potency increased after using Intervene and removes the stun effect. Can combo into Riot Blade. Combo'ed Riot Blade from Shield Bash will also give 15 Oath Gauge, in addition to 1000MP.

Heart of light and dark missionary should be 10-15% mitigation for all damage not just magic.

DRK needs a rework....again
GNB needs the cartridge debacle fixed.
PLD is pretty good but would prefer more self sustain at earlier levels.
WAR just needs a new finisher after fell cleave spam, otherwise this Job is perfect and is far ahead of the other tanks in terms of effort of play for reward.

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Originally Posted by Derio

WAR just needs a new finisher after fell cleave spam, otherwise this Job is perfect and is far ahead of the other tanks in terms of effort of play for reward.

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I'm of the complete opposite opinion, WAR needs a rework at this point, not another "hurr durr I pressed the big red button"-finisher stapled to it.
It needs some actual resource management back, it needs some gameplay that isn't spamming your filler until IR is up so you can spam a single attack some more, it needs something to actually make you think about what you're doing again.

Warrior has become the EW Summoner of the tank jobs, nothing but mindless spam that provides as much mental stimulation as an auto clicker game.

I'd honestly like to see WAR move away from being Fell Cleave spam. Like the attack should still be there, but it shouldn't BE the job.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I'd honestly like to see WAR move away from being Fell Cleave spam. Like the attack should still be there, but it shouldn't BE the job.

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It has also been completely devalued at this point.
When Fell Cleave was first introduced it was the highest potency attack in the game and you only got 3 of them in the most ideal burst scenario, which made it feel impactful.
Even with the introduction of Inner Release and the 6 Fell Cleave dream it was still impactful due to it's damage under Berserk and how hard it was to actually pull off pre-4.2 rework.

Nowadays you just throw it out like free candy and it's damage has been powercrept by a bunch of other things.
Hell, Gunbreaker has an oGCD on a 30 second cooldown that does 200 potency more than Fell Cleave.

But it's also about how completely mindless the spam is. You just do 1-2-3 to passively get some Fell Cleave, then you hit IR to spam Fell Cleave, bigger Fell Cleave and biggest Fell Cleave for a bit, then you go back to spamming 1-2-3. There is little to no thought involved at all, you just hit everything on cooldown and spam away.

As everyone else as said 1000 times: DRK rework

Realistically for DRK: I hope they start going in a direction where DRK can augment their abilities with certain skills (Dark Arts lul) like with Blood Weapon or Delirium.

All of the other tanks: I hope they stop with stupid skill upgrades and instead add new ones/add unique functionality. Orogeny and Expiacion were a waste of an expansion skill, but the lvl 82 defensive's were done well in the sense that they were given unique effects.

I doubt they'll change much of DRK's gameplay as it seems pretty set in stone that the current DRK is the one they want to build on. Only thing I would like if they aren't going to do a DRK rework, is to lower their CD's. DRK is the only tank with a two minute burst window and a weird 90 sec oGCD, while the other tanks have a one minute burst, with GNB bursting every 30 sec.

DRK's coolest abilities having such long CD's; makes the downtime sleep inducing, with it only using its 123 until the two minute burst. If they can recapture DRK's APM it had in Heavensward by shortening its CD's so DRK can oGCD more often, it would be enough to make me happy.

Blah blah blah copying GNB, but I hope the new DRK combo the we saw in the benchmark has like a 30 second cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Keagian

a weird 90 sec oGCD

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Y'know, I never got why salted earth was given such a long and awkward CD for being such a weak ability. Fingers crossed it gets shortened in DT.

I think what currently annoys me most about singular DRK abilities is Shadowbringer being 2 stacks on a 60s CD instead of just being a single 120s. Because it's actually just a 120s CD that you have to press twice for some reason. Does any other ability in the game come off CD early for the sole purpose of tricking you into pressing the button outside of the burst window? Did they think splitting it into 2 stacks would fool anyone into thinking it's a more interesting ability than it is? Does DRK need a superfluous extra oGCD press during burst?

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I think what currently annoys me most about singular DRK abilities is Shadowbringer being 2 stacks on a 60s CD instead of just being a single 120s. Because it's actually just a 120s CD that you have to press twice for some reason. Does any other ability in the game come off CD early for the sole purpose of tricking you into pressing the button outside of the burst window? Did they think splitting it into 2 stacks would fool anyone into thinking it's a more interesting ability than it is? Does DRK need a superfluous extra oGCD press during burst?

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It seems like they made that ability with every ability was getting charges in EW but then didn’t give it an odd CD to compensate for the fact that if you give it an even CD you are just going to press it twice in the burst window

If they gave it a CD like phlegma’s you at least get one outside the burst window you can move around (not that moving an OGCD really changes much unlike phlegma which is a movement tool) and requires half a brain cell to not overcap but as it stands I agree, if they don’t change the burst window or the CD it has no reason to have 2 charges

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

I think what currently annoys me most about singular DRK abilities is Shadowbringer being 2 stacks on a 60s CD instead of just being a single 120s. Because it's actually just a 120s CD that you have to press twice for some reason. Does any other ability in the game come off CD early for the sole purpose of tricking you into pressing the button outside of the burst window? Did they think splitting it into 2 stacks would fool anyone into thinking it's a more interesting ability than it is? Does DRK need a superfluous extra oGCD press during burst?

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Indirectly this ended up being superior as it allows you to spend 2 shadowbringers under raid buffs rather than being limited to only one like you are with primal rend.
I also don't hate it because in some fights due to how they are you can sneak an extra one in and still have 2 for the burst window that gets delayed for one reason or another. Or alternatively you can spend it early if you need to pump extra damage immediately for one reason or another.
Its also (slightly) more forgiving in terms of how ridiculous crit variance can be in Endwalker, something I hope is also fixed come DT.

But I imagine their thought process was it be entirely redundant with Living Shadow, which more or less functions as DRK's 120s big attack move.

Think in general the development team has sanded off too many of the edges and made the product less satisfying. For WAR I want Onslaught to have a gauge cost + short CD and a crit bonus on beast gauge again. Think it's a better world than having to headbutt the boss three times every buff window... So many better ways I rather try to find ways to challenge warriors.

Edit - Gauge cost back on Upheaval, too.

IDK about most of the other tanks but

PLD:

Bring shield swipe back, replace atonement combo or whatever.
Instead of intervention existing make an upgrade for cover that makes it into intervention and have the additional reduction from sentinal/rampart have it that the effect applies if you are within cover range of the person you used it on. Either nerf the effect so it isn't broken or make PLD take the 10% of damage like a pseudo cover.
Give Clemency earlier and remove the self heal from magic attacks or remove Bulwark and nerf the heals slightly.
Shield bash has a conal stun.
Add another support ability where you have a small aura around you that protects others.
Rework gauge, I kinda like the auto-attack system but i know others have problems with it.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REVERT GORING BLADE THIS WAS A STUPID CHANGE.
make Expiacion animation prettier :)

DRK:
- Bring back the power slash combo.
- Abyssal Drain should be a spell, with spellcasting time and never share CD with Carve & Spit.
- Completely rework the animations for Flood of Darkness/Shadow and The Blackest Night, they are extremely lazy and simple.
- Add dark-based spells such as drain/aspir, and the Absorb-XXX dark spell series from FFXI, such as Absorb-STR or Absorb-ACC, all with spellcasting time and animations, and a proper CD.
- Remove the summon and all its associated skills and passives, unless adjusted to reflect also spells when casted.
- Remove some completely useless skills such as Dark Mind, or rework them into something usefull.
- Once more, rework Living Dead into something that actually makes sense and with way shorter CD.
- Change fighting stance - sword should not be pointing downwards, but forward.

GNB:
- Should be a more tech job instead of just another aether-based job. I'm really tired of them making all jobs aether-based.
- Mostly I think GNB is very well done, but I would expand the continuation series of combos (I think this is actually going to happen anyway), and rework the animation for Double Down. It's too simple and underwhelming for a Lv.90 ability.
- A 4th and even a 5th cartridge.
- More skills that make you use the gun part of the gunblade.
- I love the animations for Aurora and Heart of Corundrum. I hope they stay the same.

PLD and WAR: don't care about those two. Don't like them.

PLD level 100 skill:
- Upgrade to Hallowed Ground
- Same effect and CD as Hallowed Ground, but...
- Duration lasts twice as long and cooldown ticks down twice as fast while you're in "walk" mode
- Name: Endwalker

Seriously, though, IMO PLD is in a great spot. Vastly better than pre-rework. The only minor things I'd like to see is upgrades to the 1-2-3, most notably to Riot Blade, and an upgrade to Goring Blade to make it less thematically jarring.
Seriously, the rest of the combo is perfectly fine, but the jittery animation of Riot Blade makes it look like you are trying to perform the thrust with a dislocated shoulder. And why does the job have "Goring Blade"? This is minor in the extreme, but it's been a niggle for me since HW. The shiny royal/holy knight going around disemboweling people never made sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

PLD level 100 skill:
- Upgrade to Hallowed Ground
- Same effect and CD as Hallowed Ground, but...
- Duration lasts twice as long and cooldown ticks down twice as fast while you're in "walk" mode
- Name: Endwalker

Seriously, though, IMO PLD is in a great spot. Vastly better than pre-rework. The only minor things I'd like to see is upgrades to the 1-2-3, most notably to Riot Blade, and an upgrade to Goring Blade to make it less thematically jarring.
Seriously, the rest of the combo is perfectly fine, but the jittery animation of Riot Blade makes it look like you are trying to perform the thrust with a dislocated shoulder. And why does the job have "Goring Blade"? This is minor in the extreme, but it's been a niggle for me since HW. The shiny royal/holy knight going around disemboweling people never made sense to me.

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I mean goring blade has long been a DOT, goring the enemy causing them to bleed inducing damage over time makes perfect thematic sense for a sword wielding class

It just doesn’t make as much sense when they have suddenly turned it into a small nuke attack instead

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean goring blade has long been a DOT, goring the enemy causing them to bleed inducing damage over time makes perfect thematic sense for a sword wielding class

It just doesn’t make as much sense when they have suddenly turned it into a small nuke attack instead

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I really hate that they did that.
It was one of the few things that made tanks different.
I strongly dislike that all the tanks need to be, and play the same.
The only tank that can not do everything at this point is Drk, and people want it to have more healing - i don't.
Maybe Warrior should have no shields at all, and lower mits, so struggles against some tank busters. Maybe Paladin should do a little bit less damage but bring some utilities that the others don't.
Maybe GNB should be the highest damage but it doesn't bring a party mit.
Maybe Drk should excell at tank busters but it needs some help against sustained damage.

PLD:
-Party buff of some sort
-Rez on a long cooldown

GNB:
-Meditate/Meditation-like ability for cartridge gain

DRK:
-Rework tbh
-Sustain to match the other tanks

General tank wishlist:
-New defensive ability
-Give all def abilities new vfx that persist for the duration or at least make them flashier when activated
-Sustain abilities/traits acquired at earlier levels

Could say a lot for every tank tbh but these would be some things I want most

They absolutely cannot give tanks a rezz because it completely breaks the game to give tanks rezzes

They could give paladin a rez, but it's on a 1 minute-long cast time lol. By which point you earn that rez if you aren't somehow already dead. And the cooldown is 1 month.

Plus, if PLDs get a battle res, a not-so-jealous tank will cry about and they'll get smooth-brain res too, but with 4,294,967,296 additional effects