Naoki Yoshida's Japan Expo Attendance (07/06/2012)

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Originally Posted by nibelunc

I am too tired of FF14 doing the same borring content over and over again. Things like this is the reason why Square Enix fails imo.

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Yeah, because grinding the same mob over and over again is so much more fun! :D

The interview was awesome. Yoshi is DA MAN! lol

i dont think is better or worse, some people like to level up grinding quests, and some people like to level grinding monsters.

I prefer to level up grinding monsters, is something that you will find in every Final Fantasy.. running around a forest to kill the same group of monster to level up. I hope they allow to level up grinding monsters.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Yeah, because grinding the same mob over and over again is so much more fun! :D

The interview was awesome. Yoshi is DA MAN! lol

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ya it is fun lol because you get EXP over and over while quest go talk to A then come to Y and then go to X and talk to B return back to A reward 2.500 exp by the time someone did that i got over 10k exp killing mobs.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Is killing the same monster over and over again really any better?

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Yeah, I like doing that :/
That's one reason for me to play this game.

Did you play other Final Fantasy games? I think you like it too? lol

I am just asking why they want to make grinding useless. It would be cool to have content alternative for leveling but I really prefer what we have now. Of course I can't really tell because we don't know how it will finally be but I didn't expect them to change everything again.

Edit: I stopped playing the game atm because it sucked to do the 25 dungeon over and over again just to farm some seals. Or endless repeating hamlet or other content to get something. I REALLY prefer grinding than getting even more bored just because I have to get my EXP on the same way. Some players want to do content once and are happy then while grinding is something open and free to do however you want to.

And more important: Quest grinding = solo play = no community interact leveling.

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Originally Posted by nibelunc

That sounds horrible. In every Final Fantasy the way to level up was with battles. I am fine if content is just an alternative but "not going to work" is not going to work for me. I am too tired of FF14 doing the same borring content over and over again. Things like this is the reason why Square Enix fails imo.
They had their success recipe once and then they decided to change things to be more like other games and innovative. Let me level with fighting as I did til now, if I want to.

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Your still killing monsters either way does it matter?

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Is killing the same monster over and over again really any better?

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It is not that killing mobs repeatedly is better than the other options; there just happen to be some people who prefer this option over others at varying times.

If people like grinding quests, more power to them. I prefer grinding mobs most of the time (though I do admit to finding enjoyment from grinding quests and leves at other times, too). People might think I'm crazy, but I think people who like grinding quests for levels are crazy. Why can't we just be crazy folks together and have our options for each camp of crazy? :\

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Originally Posted by Firon

Your still killing monsters either way does it matter?

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It matters when you have to run back from a to b to z and then back to a to turn in the kills/items for rewards. It will matter more if we have to repeat this for every single job/class we level.

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Originally Posted by Calaera

It is not that killing mobs repeatedly is better than the other options; there just happen to be some people who prefer this option over others at varying times.

If people like grinding quests, more power to them. I prefer grinding mobs most of the time (though I do admit to finding enjoyment from grinding quests and leves at other times, too). People might think I'm crazy, but I think people who like grinding quests for levels are crazy. Why can't we just be crazy folks together and have our options for each camp of crazy? :\

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That's exactly what I mean. It's not a bad idea to make leveling possible by doing quests and content but I don't understand why they want to take the option of grinding away because I think many people like to do it.

Quest Grinding vs Mob Grinding seems like an ages-old debate 'round these parts..
In order to make quest grinding worthwhile over mob grinding, quests need to give substantial amounts of experience, compared to plain-old grinding monsters. And by that, I mean that in the timeframe it takes someone to kill x amount of mobs, the person who finished a quest in that same amount of time should get 1.5x or 2.0x the amount of experience the mob grinder did.

Quick example, ala TERA:
In naTERA (not sure about EU TERA) quest grinding was significantly better than dungeons, or even just killing mobs for experience. It'll go something like this for your typical quest in TERA:

Level 55, Quest A: Go kill 20 types of mob X, then turn in.
Typical Quest reward at that level: 1,000,000 experience + gold (gold is sort-of irrelevant, it's too easy to get in TERA).

Each mob X grants something along the lines of 50,000-60,000 exp individually at that level, but I can't remember completely. It's been awhile since I played it.
20 of mob X x60,000 = 1,200,000 on top of that 1,000,000 you get for quest completion.
That's 2,200,000 EXP in your pocket in the time that someone could kill those same 20 mobs.

So, all quest grinding would really do, if done in the same fashion as most MMOs these days, is just rewarding you for a task you were probably going to go out and do anyways. Oh, want to kill some monsters? Grab this quest, or even a daily, go kill, and get a huge amount of exp on top of the mobs you killed.

That's the only way quest grinding would ever beat exping normally, is if the reward upon completion is that substantial.

Just my thoughts on such things.

Some of you are definitely jumping the gun way too soon.

First off, I doubt they will kill off the possibility to grind out levels beause that would be too stupid of a move for them to make..

As for the community being negatively affected, it is unlikely. They will likely put an emphasis on group quests that will be more rewarding, and allowing parties to enjoy solo quests together as well. The solo players will still get some cake as well.

This all sounds like a welcome addition to me. Although, I was hoping the primal fights werent going to be instanced.. oh well. :p

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Originally Posted by Calaera

It matters when you have to run back from a to b to z and then back to a to turn in the kills/items for rewards. It will matter more if we have to repeat this for every single job/class we level.

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You don;t even know what the hell you are talking about not all quest are Get x item and give to x person for 50k exp. If anything it's few of those around in any game.

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Originally Posted by nibelunc

Yeah, I like doing that :/
That's one reason for me to play this game.

Did you play other Final Fantasy games? I think you like it too? lol

I am just asking why they want to make grinding useless. It would be cool to have content alternative for leveling but I really prefer what we have now. Of course I can't really tell because we don't know how it will finally be but I didn't expect them to change everything again.

Edit: I stopped playing the game atm because it sucked to do the 25 dungeon over and over again just to farm some seals. Or endless repeating hamlet or other content to get something. I REALLY prefer grinding than getting even more bored just because I have to get my EXP on the same way. Some players want to do content once and are happy then while grinding is something open and free to do however you want to.

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Yes I have played other Final Fantasy games. I played FFXI for a number of years too.

I wasn't trying to criticize people who like to level up via grinding. I think it's totally cool if you enjoy leveling like that. Sometimes I'd rather level mindlessly via grinding too - it's just a question of my state of mind at the time. I was more trying to express that both ways aren't really any better than the other, and I thought you were overreacting. Both methods get boring quickly, but it just so happens that more people prefer to level up via dungeons and quests more often than via grinding. You can blame SE all you want for supporting additional leveling methods, but really I feel like you're just upset because SE isn't going to force everyone to be just like you. Grinding isn't going to go away, but it might so happen that people won't feel forced to do it either, and I call that progress.

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Originally Posted by Firon

You don;t even know what the hell you are talking about not all quest are Get x item and give to x person for 50k exp. If anything it's few of those around in any game.

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Many quests in games such as WoW are fetch and return quests. If you want the exp, you need to go out to find the mobs, kill the mobs, and then return to get the exp. The same is in SWTOR, and there were several instances of this in Tera as well. Not all quests are like this, no. But many of them were the fetch and return quests that I really despise.

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Originally Posted by Radnar

Yes I have played other Final Fantasy games. I played FFXI for a number of years too.

I wasn't trying to criticize people who like to level up via grinding. I think it's totally cool if you enjoy leveling like that. Sometimes I'd rather level mindlessly via grinding too - it's just a question of my state of mind at the time. I was more trying to express that both ways aren't really any better than the other, and I thought you were overreacting. Both methods get boring quickly, but it just so happens that more people prefer to level up via dungeons and quests more often than via grinding. You can blame SE all you want for supporting additional leveling methods, but really I feel like you're just upset because SE isn't going to force everyone to be just like you. Grinding isn't going to go away, but it might so happen that people won't feel forced to do it either, and I call that progress.

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Mh just like I said, I just don't get why Yoshi said "camping or farming, that's not going to work in 2.0". Would be fine if anybody can do as she or he wants. Sorry for overreacting. I just saw them changing the whole system until now and it seems they are going to change everything again.

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Originally Posted by Firon

You don;t even know what the hell you are talking about not all quest are Get x item and give to x person for 50k exp. If anything it's few of those around in any game.

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Are you kidding? The amount of back and forth you had to do in past mmorpgs was insane. Some games have gotten a bit better, but unless they are special quests or endgame encounters, most quest systems are COMPLETELY built upon go here and fetch this or go here and farm that or go here and kill x number of mobs. The only difference was in the presentation. If those kinds of quests didn't exist, you wouldn't even have a quest progression system. I don't know if you were paying attention to what was going on while you were playing, but I sure was.

Honestly, not worried about it one bit.

If they keep leves as a means of gaining EXP solo, have these quests as large burst xp rewards, and leave XP parties more or less the same, then we've got a good dynamic systen allowing players to level up the way they wish. Granted, that's of course seeing that combat itself has more depth to it - though I'm fairly confident that will develop on it's own pace.

My guess is, straight grinding mobs is going to seem innefficent compared to questing, which makes sense, even if people want the alternative. The life of an adventurer is about going out and adventuring. So long as they keep the quest objectives variant enough, I'll have no problem with it what so ever.

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Originally Posted by Orophen

Are you kidding? The amount of back and forth you had to do in past mmorpgs was insane. Some games have gotten a bit better, but unless they are special quests or endgame encounters, most quest systems are COMPLETELY built upon go here and fetch this or go here and farm that or go here and kill x number of mobs. The only difference was in the presentation. If those kinds of quests didn't exist, you wouldn't even have a quest progression system. I don't know if you were paying attention to what was going on while you were playing, but I sure was.

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Yes because standing in one spot killing 30 monsters for 7k exp and doing a quest that requires you to get 20 rat pelts from x monster, isnt the same thing as grinding at the end of the day you are just mindlessly killing monsters.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Yes because standing in one spot killing 30 monsters for 7k exp and doing a quest that requires you to get 20 rat pelts from x monster, isnt the same thing as grinding at the end of the day you are just mindlessly killing monsters.

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Okay. So what? That's not the point I was debating with you about. You said that fetch quests weren't common and that only a few exist in any game. I said you were wrong. What you just told me wasn't even a proper response. Or did you send that response to the wrong person?

But okay, I'll bite. If in the end they are both just the same thing, mindlessly killing monsters, what's the point of changing the way things are done in the first place? If they are the same thing then it doesn't make sense to even bother with a quest progression system. Just stick with what's already there. According to you, it's the same outcome, so it's a waste of time to develop a quest progression system in the first place. So I'll go and tell Yoshida that you're fine with us only grinding monsters right now, and we can put this discussion to bed, thanks to your brilliant argument.

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Originally Posted by Evangelus

http://ffxiv.jeuxonline.info/article...the-japan-expo

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Very promising.

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Originally Posted by nibelunc

That sounds horrible. In every Final Fantasy the way to level up was with battles. I am fine if content is just an alternative but "not going to work" is not going to work for me. I am too tired of FF14 doing the same borring content over and over again. Things like this is the reason why Square Enix fails imo.
They had their success recipe once and then they decided to change things to be more like other games and innovative. Let me level with fighting as I did til now, if I want to.

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Haha, sorry, what?

In most Final Fantasy games you got more or less all the levels you needed to beat the game from progressing the story and the few random encounters you would bump into on your way from one "quest" to another.

If you needed to stop and spend hours just grinding in order to progress the main story in earlier final fantasy games, you either sucked at RPGs or were playing FF1-3 on the NES.

If anything, FF14 (and FF11 for that matter) are different from other FFs because they required you to stop progressing the story for a significant amount of time just in order to level up.

What would be a reasonable combination of both of these would be to let the main story give you the majority of the exp needed to get to lv50 for one job, then you could leave the grinding for additional jobs if you wanted to level them.

"JOL : About the relic weapons, we didn't hear about them for a while. Let's say, one day, you raise the level cap, and then weapons will become useless. Will they be upgradable?

Yoshida : [himself, in English] Yes. *laughs*

Especially because we ask players to go through such a huge challenge to get the weapons, so we don't want to introduce something new and make your efforts go away. We will definitely have an update, it really is a special item."

While it's good that something that took a lot of time to complete doesn't become obsolete overnight, I think it would be healthy for the game to eventually introduce weapons that will become better than the upgraded relic weapons as well.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

While it's good that something that took a lot of time to complete doesn't become obsolete overnight, I think it would be healthy for the game to eventually introduce weapons that will become better than the upgraded relic weapons as well.

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Because then we'll be happy to trash them...
The most healthy thing would be releasing different relics like ffxi, when at certain points they released mithycs and empyrean weapons. All 3 relics are very strong, but have very different requirements

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Honestly, not worried about it one bit.

If they keep leves as a means of gaining EXP solo, have these quests as large burst xp rewards, and leave XP parties more or less the same, then we've got a good dynamic systen allowing players to level up the way they wish. Granted, that's of course seeing that combat itself has more depth to it - though I'm fairly confident that will develop on it's own pace.

My guess is, straight grinding mobs is going to seem innefficent compared to questing, which makes sense, even if people want the alternative. The life of an adventurer is about going out and adventuring. So long as they keep the quest objectives variant enough, I'll have no problem with it what so ever.

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THIS

as long we have different OPITIONS to level, i'm all for it.

I'm 100% sure that 2.0 will have Monsters to kill to get exp etc.. He's just stating how he feels like exp via Monster camp won't work for some people. So he's probably just going to make Tons of quests to get exp out of for those type of people. A World that's Empty... with no monsters roaming about... Isn't an MMO at all without them.. period. Heck even Wow did it Quests for exp and Monsters for exp as well.

If they don't put monsters in 2.0.. it be the death of the game. Yoshi-P is a smart man, I'm 100% sure he and the team will put Monsters (a lot of them) roaming about the world.

In fact I believe he made it a point to say there will be more dangerous monsters roaming areas so you actually feel like you are traveling in a dangerous world. Like they was working on skeletons appearing at night time and ghosts and what not. They did mention that all current methods of leveling will still be present but they are just adding more content for new players to enjoy if they choose.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Haha, sorry, what?

In most Final Fantasy games you got more or less all the levels you needed to beat the game from progressing the story and the few random encounters you would bump into on your way from one "quest" to another.

If you needed to stop and spend hours just grinding in order to progress the main story in earlier final fantasy games, you either sucked at RPGs or were playing FF1-3 on the NES.

If anything, FF14 (and FF11 for that matter) are different from other FFs because they required you to stop progressing the story for a significant amount of time just in order to level up.

What would be a reasonable combination of both of these would be to let the main story give you the majority of the exp needed to get to lv50 for one job, then you could leave the grinding for additional jobs if you wanted to level them.

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not really the case there. I couldn't beat ffvii at lvl 70+ my first play I was missing specific items and such and I was even grinding to gain levels it was the same with FFIX just went through and played the story and the quests that I had to do and still couldn't beat the game without using game shark the first time. Rpg's are meant to be grind fests the more powerful you are the easier it is to defeat the enemies and bosses otherwise if the game is that easy it cheapens it. Take for example FFX-2 I beat that game in 20 hours got the normal ending and you know what I didn't give a shit that my brother pawned the game for money for pills. I hated that game so much because of how easy it was to beat. I love ffvii because it took me years to finally beat the game ( and that was because I actually stopped playing it). Take for example Dragon Quest the original. You pretty much had to be lvl 20 to beat the game and have everything or else bam your dead. so no it doesn't mean a person sucks at rpgs if they grind fest it. that's what it's intended to be

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Originally Posted by Rannie

not really the case there. I couldn't beat ffvii at lvl 70+ my first play I was missing specific items and such and I was even grinding to gain levels it was the same with FFIX just went through and played the story and the quests that I had to do and still couldn't beat the game without using game shark the first time. Rpg's are meant to be grind fests the more powerful you are the easier it is to defeat the enemies and bosses otherwise if the game is that easy it cheapens it. Take for example FFX-2 I beat that game in 20 hours got the normal ending and you know what I didn't give a shit that my brother pawned the game for money for pills. I hated that game so much because of how easy it was to beat. I love ffvii because it took me years to finally beat the game ( and that was because I actually stopped playing it). Take for example Dragon Quest the original. You pretty much had to be lvl 20 to beat the game and have everything or else bam your dead. so no it doesn't mean a person sucks at rpgs if they grind fest it. that's what it's intended to be

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It is part of the game and part of the fun, it is part of the time sink that makes the game enjoyable majority of the time. Though I can say not all games are fun to level up in, though every FF title has been fun to me because the combat systems are spot on, including X-2.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

not really the case there. I couldn't beat ffvii at lvl 70+ my first play I was missing specific items and such and I was even grinding to gain levels it was the same with FFIX just went through and played the story and the quests that I had to do and still couldn't beat the game without using game shark the first time. Rpg's are meant to be grind fests the more powerful you are the easier it is to defeat the enemies and bosses otherwise if the game is that easy it cheapens it. Take for example FFX-2 I beat that game in 20 hours got the normal ending and you know what I didn't give a shit that my brother pawned the game for money for pills. I hated that game so much because of how easy it was to beat. I love ffvii because it took me years to finally beat the game ( and that was because I actually stopped playing it). Take for example Dragon Quest the original. You pretty much had to be lvl 20 to beat the game and have everything or else bam your dead. so no it doesn't mean a person sucks at rpgs if they grind fest it. that's what it's intended to be

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If you could not beat FFVII at lvl 70+ then you are just bad period, FF series is not even really hard, like at all, as in no challenge really outside of hidden bosses etc etc, the only thing you got right is that RPGS are meant to be grindfests yes, but they are hidden with progression, something this game LACKS!

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

If you could not beat FFVII at lvl 70+ then you are just bad period, FF series is not even really hard, like at all, as in no challenge really outside of hidden bosses etc etc, the only thing you got right is that RPGS are meant to be grindfests yes, but they are hidden with progression, something this game LACKS!

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*sighs* Yeah you don't know what i had and what I didn't have so please don't make an assumption with saying I was just bad period. Please you don't know anything about me the first rpg i've ever beaten was ffiv. I was giving examples as well thank you. I love Ffvii I even own multiple copies of it and can play it and beat it even today. My point to the person I quoted was she said that rpgs weren't grind fests when they are and you can't always beat the game just by following story progression and a few quests. Period end of story. Thank you very much have a good day.

I got my ass handed to me the first time i tried to beat sephiroth, when i was level 55. I came back at 65 and had no problems with him. So yeah, I needed some grinding. The amount of grinding was however extremely short compared to all the time i spent doing stuff that progressed the story. Didn't grind for more than a couple of hours in a game that i had spent well over 50 hours at to get to the end.

I was also a dumb teenager with no real experience with RPGs back then. Basically, I sucked, replaying the game now, I would probably be able to beat it at whatever level i got to by the end of the game.

Anyway, my point isn't that everything that is to do in FF14 should be doable the second you were done with the main story, but that the main story itself should be completable with a minimal amount of grinding outside of what was required to progress the actual storyline quests.

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Originally Posted by Dargoth_Draconia

It is part of the game and part of the fun, it is part of the time sink that makes the game enjoyable majority of the time. Though I can say not all games are fun to level up in, though every FF title has been fun to me because the combat systems are spot on, including X-2.

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Don't get me wrong the combat portion of X-2 wasn't bad it was a great concept... the story and how shortly it took me to be the game is what killed it plus to me it was mainly a fan service and the story wasn't that great behind it either. The dressphere system i did enjoy however.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I got my ass handed to me the first time i tried to beat sephiroth, when i was level 55. I came back at 65 and had no problems with him. So yeah, I needed some grinding. The amount of grinding was however extremely short compared to all the time i spent doing stuff that progressed the story. Didn't grind for more than a couple of hours in a game that i had spent well over 50 hours at to get to the end.

I was also a dumb teenager with no real experience with RPGs back then. Basically, I sucked, replaying the game now, I would probably be able to beat it at whatever level i got to by the end of the game.

Anyway, my point isn't that everything that is to do in FF14 should be doable the second you were done with the main story, but that the main story itself should be completable with a minimal amount of grinding outside of what was required to progress the actual storyline quests.

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almost the same with me but I was also missing some key items like kotr w-item most of my materia wasn't all that great nor was my summoning materia . I think as soon as i got the ultimate weapons for most of the characters i ended up screwing myself over so yeah i got ticked off and stopped playing the game for 7 years came back replayed it got everything including kotr got high enough and beat sephiroth. Quite frankly when you're not prepared well enough it doesn't mean you suck it means you have to go through and redo it. and I'll start a game over and replay it to do it correctly if i have too.

bit also the main story line quests are only at certain lvls and most of the time you can do them without having to grind over that certain lvl it even states that you can bring in others to help you with it so you're not doing it yourself. Now you don't have to do the main story line after the first one you can wait until your higher in lvl so it's easier to do but you still can do them at the levels they're required to be done at. Even if you're NOT a fighting class. One of the reasons why they put parley in is if you can't fight you can do main scenarios that way and not worry about fighting.

Truth be told, you don't really need ktor, ultima weapon or omnislash to beat him. If you know what he can throw at you and have the items or spells to counteract it, you can actually deal with him pretty decently already. Sure, it won't be as fast as with the best items, but with big guard up, regen-all, esuna, a single ribbon, and the vaccine item picked up in the icicle inn, you can slowly but surely kill him even in your 50-60s.

My defeat was mostly due to not knowing what I was up against. You know what they say, knowing is half the battle.

-edit-
And not to mention, I had no concept of damage per MP ratios when I was in my early teens. Many enemy skills delivered way more damage at lower cost than most summons did. Wasting MP isn't helpful to the final battle either :p.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Truth be told, you don't really need ktor, ultima weapon or omnislash to beat him. If you know what he can throw at you and have the items or spells to counteract it, you can actually deal with him pretty decently already. Sure, it won't be as fast as with the best items, but with big guard up, regen-all, esuna, a single ribbon, and the vaccine item picked up in the icicle inn, you can slowly but surely kill him even in your 50-60s.

My defeat was mostly due to not knowing what I was up against. You know what they say, knowing is half the battle.

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right and the other half is red lasers and blue lasers rofl but yeah it was my issue with it as well I was getting my ass handed to me without know what i was up against.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

*sighs* Yeah you don't know what i had and what I didn't have so please don't make an assumption with saying I was just bad period. Please you don't know anything about me the first rpg i've ever beaten was ffiv. I was giving examples as well thank you. I love Ffvii I even own multiple copies of it and can play it and beat it even today. My point to the person I quoted was she said that rpgs weren't grind fests when they are and you can't always beat the game just by following story progression and a few quests. Period end of story. Thank you very much have a good day.

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You where way beyond the minimun required to beat him, and you said it was because you where missing w/e, there is no item that is required to beat a final boss, that is not provided by the storyline period. Every single item that is in a sidequest or from a drop or from a hidden boss is just optional, but everything that is required to finish the game is provided to you by the game, so yeah you where bad back then lol

and this is now a ff7 thread

An improvement!

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Originally Posted by Rannie

*sighs* Yeah you don't know what i had and what I didn't have so please don't make an assumption with saying I was just bad period. Please you don't know anything about me the first rpg i've ever beaten was ffiv. I was giving examples as well thank you. I love Ffvii I even own multiple copies of it and can play it and beat it even today. My point to the person I quoted was she said that rpgs weren't grind fests when they are and you can't always beat the game just by following story progression and a few quests. Period end of story. Thank you very much have a good day.

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He is pretty much right tho you can beat every FF out except 13 with attack and cure.