I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

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Originally Posted by Morphiana

Look, you can either have a limited number of in depth classes with balance or a ton of more generic classes with balance. You cannot have both, WoW has taught us that, the work load becomes insane after awhile.

The more classes and abilities you add the more you have to account for. 1 class is not just 1 more thing to worry about, a new class comes with a ton of abilities you'll have to worry about and how they interact with everything from other jobs to the enemies in the game. That's just PvE, it doesn't even include PvP balancing. The more unique you make it, the harder it will be to tune. The more time they spend tuning class balance the less content you'll get so they make the classes easier to tune thus more generic.

If you want more depth to your classes and more strategy behind the game play then it's best to start asking they slow down on new class releases. Otherwise, it'll become more generic with each subsequent class they put out.

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I don't buy that argument in FF14. The stats and buffs we have are so painfully generic and plain that there is no way tuning takes that much time. Especially compared to WoW where you have crazier buffs like +40% haste and stats like mastery which is different for every spec.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I don't buy that argument in FF14. The stats and buffs we have are so painfully generic and plain that there is no way tuning takes that much time. Especially compared to WoW where you have crazier buffs like +40% haste and stats like mastery which is different for every spec.

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In fairness, balancing the books on a lemonade stand would probably be a challenge for CBU's worn out and understaffed job design team at this point, and that's before we touch on the clear deficiencies in the testing and validation team as well =(

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

I feel this way about a lot of jobs. Normally I am excited about what new actions an expansion will bring but lately I've been more terrified about which skills are getting removed more.

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Removed Black Mage: Too confusing for new players.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Removed Black Mage: Too confusing for new players.

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Nah, Yoshi-Ps main would never be touched.

How disgustingly insulting to say that….

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I don't buy that argument in FF14. The stats and buffs we have are so painfully generic and plain that there is no way tuning takes that much time. Especially compared to WoW where you have crazier buffs like +40% haste and stats like mastery which is different for every spec.

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You say that and yet it took five patches and a complete rework for them figure out the tank balance. And they still flubbed it with Paladin. Nevermind the infamous, "Caster balance" statement as Red Mage languishes.

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Originally Posted by Morphiana

Look, you can either have a limited number of in depth classes with balance or a ton of more generic classes with balance. You cannot have both, WoW has taught us that, the work load becomes insane after awhile.

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I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for absolute balance. Most people just want a fun job that can clear content, that's all. The devs have been shaving out all the unique bits of every job just to make balancing for them easier, nobody has been asking for this, nobody wants their job to become same as other jobs in the name of balance.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You say that and yet it took five patches and a complete rework for them figure out the tank balance. And they still flubbed it with Paladin. Nevermind the infamous, "Caster balance" statement as Red Mage languishes.

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The caster balance is entirely their own fault because of raise tax.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for absolute balance. Most people just want a fun job that can clear content, that's all. The devs have been shaving out all the unique bits of every job just to make balancing for them easier, nobody has been asking for this, nobody wants their job to become same as other jobs in the name of balance.

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Hey square enix can we maybe try to avoid a repeat of Gordias where you made one tank physically useless for all of the content that requires a tank

So what I’m hearing is you want every job to be exactly the same in the name of balance so you are relying on crits in the burst window to meet wonky DPS checks

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You say that and yet it took five patches and a complete rework for them figure out the tank balance. And they still flubbed it with Paladin. Nevermind the infamous, "Caster balance" statement as Red Mage languishes.

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It took them five expansions to figure out that Living Dead was the worst tank invulnerability, that it actively punished non WHM healers.

Whether you think the job is well or poorly designed you have to agree the job is barebones: the job doesn’t functionally change from level 50 to level 86 where it gets astral flow, you just a few upgrades to its skill appearance, the job has one of the least number of buttons and the highest proportion of its damage coming from the fewest buttons outside of the healers

So taking that idea if they had alot or ideas for what they wanted to do to make astral flow more complex why didn’t they do it at the current level; as we know from their job design they don’t rip out and make different parts of the levelling experience different at higher levels (for examples Raiden thirst replaces true thrust but changes nothing, paradox replaces fire 1 to reset astral fire but doesn’t really change the unless you get into weird optimisation): so from this we know it’s extremely unlikely the actual structure of the primals will change, from this having about 3-5 GCD’s to execute a mini phase is restrictive, especially when for something like titan astral flow already covers all of its GCD’s

The same can be said about the Demi’s, if the Demi’s are meant to have massive complex rotations then why don’t they have them now

The most realistic proposal people have is changing the pheonix primals to the other 3 which also really doesn’t change the job

So does that make it clearer what I mean, if the job had endless possibilities why don’t any of them currently exist, the job could have been a universally adored slam dunk if this was the progression to 90

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

It took them five expansions to figure out that Living Dead was the worst tank invulnerability, that it actively punished non WHM healers.

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Living Dead hasn't been around for five expansions. The main limitation around getting it changed was pushback from other tanks, who didn't want to risk DRK potentially getting ahead of them. There was a lot of false rhetoric tossed around ('Living Dead is 20 seconds of invulnerability,' 'Living Dead is fine' and so on).

When Holmgang was buffed even further in Endwalker such that it had a 10 second duration, there wasn't any defense of the situation left. But there's always an enormous amount of resistance and pushback that comes from this forum the instant you do anything that might even indirectly disadvantage the more popular jobs, like WAR.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There was a lot of false rhetoric tossed around ('Living Dead is 20 seconds of invulnerability,' 'Living Dead is fine' and so on).

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Which was almost always coming from newish players who had only leveled DRK and wanted their pick to look the most special, not any player with a decent range of experience.

Meanwhile, mains of other tanks were suggesting the likes of a Purgatory mechanic (would-be overkill damage is stored, nullifying that amount of healing received, with the DRK just needing to have gotten rid of all Purgatory before Living Dead ran out), instead of needing healing equal to the DRK's max HP, so that it'd at least (unlike if the healing requirement were outright removed) be unique from Holmgang (outside of LD's being, at the time, 4s longer for its 1 minute higher CD) despite being made competitive.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The most realistic proposal people have is changing the pheonix primals to the other 3 which also really doesn’t change the job

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Judging by prior ways they "expand" jobs, there's actually 3 ways I see this going:

1) They rip Phoenix out and replace it with another demi, they make Phoenix a utility summon that is SMN's answer to RDM's Magick Barrier.

2) They add the other 3 legos, which are carbon copies of the current legos. Leviathan has a long cast dropsy puddle, Ramuh has OGCD Shock Strikes, and Shiva has a Glacier Bash gapcloser into Icebrand follow-up.

3) They tack on a 3rd demi, reduce demis to 10s each and segment SMN into a rigid 40s loop (like BRD).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

let's keep a good discussion going

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http://10char.png

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Whether you think the job is well or poorly designed you have to agree the job is barebones: the job doesn’t functionally change from level 50 to level 86 where it gets astral flow,

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I disagree the Job is "barebones". I feel like it feels good at level cap. I do agree that it should get Astral flow WWAAAAAAYYY earlier, though.

I pitched ideas before, but they could have quite a few variations on the theme. For example, one Primal could give you the Eukrasia Diagnosis setup (1 sec GCD into 1.5 sec GCD) like Titan but not. Another could have a double weave oGCD instead of Titan's single. Another could have 1.5 sec casts (but actual casts) instead of instants. Another could have things that proc in some way (though I hate procs so don't really encourage that). There are a near infinite amount of variations on the theme, and that's if we just stick with one Gemshine and one Astral Flow. They could, in the future, have ACTUAL aspected Ruin 3 where the Ruin 3 ability changed (as it does for Baha and Phoe) and be part of that Primal's mini-phase.

"if the Demi's are meant to have massive complex rotations" - they aren't. I think it's clear SMN was designed to be streamlined and fun, not complex, and to appeal to people who want a simple and striaghtforward kit and rotation. The one oddity in my mind is why they didn't streamline SCH at the same time and just make them "the easy Jobs" as a one-stop-shop. It's weird to have such a disparity in complexity (SCH's healing kit is either the second most or the most complex of the Healer kits, depending on how you look at it) between them. I know SE hates them sharing a class, but at this point, they really should just run with it.

The other three Primals does change the Job because (a) they would likely have different Gemshine/Astral Flow mechanics (thus changing the feel) and (b) visuals DO have an impact on people. There are some people that say they're fine with WHM but wish it had the Stone and Aero animations on its attacks instead of Glare/Dia. Even a mere VFX change can be huge for some people.

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I guess my point is it DOES have endless possibilities. I think your critique would be better worded as "Will they actually be capitalized on or not?", not it doesn't have them. Though I think they will probably want to keep SMN simple going forward, since that seems to be "what the people want" (at least by numbers of how many play it...)

^ I guess that comes down to the distinction of “they have massive potential but they probably won’t capitalise on it” and “it has no potential” are they really different in a practical sense, like we could say SMN has the potential to be another BLM but if that isn’t really their design philosophy does it really have that potential

Like for example if they want to keep the job consistent and simple then there is a limit to where they can go, the Demi’s are supposed to stay roughly the same and the current primals are staying roughly similar then the other 3 primals after pheonix and maybe an oGCD or two would be about the job can realistically do without making the current phases more complex or significantly different

So with 3/4 of the rotation locked down (mostly except for an oGCD or two maybe) and the remaining 1/4 still having to have the gemshine spam baseline I really would say the job is too locked down

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Though I think they will probably want to keep SMN simple going forward, since that seems to be "what the people want" (at least by numbers of how many play it...)

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Is not that conflated, though? You may as well call being overpowered an "identity".

Without having other jobs of similar theme/gameplay and/or relative output-per-effort within that same role, we have little way of knowing whether people play the given job because for its overpowered-ness/advantages or for its theme/gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

are they really different in a practical sense,

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Yes.

Setting aside one is abjectly false while the other is abjectly true...

...the former notes that there is a possibility for it to be used. This is the first iteration, and we don't know what they'll do going forward yet, meaning we cannot use it t draw that trend line. I very much suspect they will use the flexibility of this design going forward since it makes for easy additions. It's super modular, and that makes it very easy to make some VFX swaps or minor variations on the theme using what other types of cast spells exist in the game (short stacking buffs like BLU's Ravana, long casts, short casts, instant casts, oGCDs, GCDs...), and as certain people are fond of pointing out, no Job remains unchanged in expansions as they get at the least some potency upgrades and VFX changes for spells.

Now, whether what they do will satisfy you personal or not is another question entirely. I suspect it will not. But that's not what potential or possibilities is defined by.

I think this is more a case of what you don't like vs what word you're using to describe it. I absolutely suspect they won't do things you like with it...but that's not what possibilities or potential means. There are a lot of things they could do that you personally may not enjoy, but those are all valid topics under the header of possibility.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Is not that conflated, though? You may as well call being overpowered an "identity".

Without having other jobs of similar theme/gameplay and/or relative output-per-effort within that same role, we have little way of knowing whether people play the given job because for its overpowered-ness/advantages or for its theme/gameplay.

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SMN isn't overpowered by any definition of the term, though.

Here's the thing, as much as people who dislike SMN want to come up with any reason for it to be popular other than it being simple to play...the reality is it had the same basic aesthetics (summoning magical entities to fight with you) before as it does now, similar utility (combat raise, party buff, and rotation dependent party healing; it had Phoenix in ShB) before. It also did MORE damage than then it does now - in several of the ShB patches, SMN did comparable damage to BLM, and I think in one patch (or maybe two) it actually did more. The only thing that changed is that it's far easier to play now, and its damage reduced to around RDM levels. And 5.5 SMN also shared a Job with SCH, meaning the "people only play it so much because it levels with SCH" argument is clearly incorrect.

So we can compare 5.5 SMN to EW SMN and see that the former, despite having similar aesthetic, similar utility (raise, party buff, healing), also sharing leveling with SCH, and actually doing more damage...was less played than current SMN.

So what is the explanation for this that isn't "because it's straightforward to play now, and people like that"? If people are only rushing to it now for its utility, why weren't they in ShB when it had the same utility? If people like more complex Jobs, why wasn't it one of the most played in ShB? If it's only because it levels with SCH, why wasn't it leveled with SCH in ShB?

All the arguments for SMN numbers being higher now other than people enjoy/prize simpler things don't hold up when you realize ShB SMN had those things (and even better damage), yet it was played less then. The most logical answer seems to be: People do, indeed, prefer simpler things.

^first of all I’m going to ignore your “I feel like you (insert baseless speculation)” comments because I know despite how often you discuss wanting fair discussion what you really mean is you want us to be nice while you are free to fling around any insult and hyperbole you want

and again I’m saying that your examples of basically adding 3 new primals that have swapped out VFX and maybe a different astral flow does not constitute an evolution of the design of the job in a meaningful sense as you are functionally playing the same rigid locked design but a part of your rotations appearance is slightly different l, something like you partially controlling the summoned primals or the primals having a core mini rotation that builds towards something would be a valid example of evolution of the modular primal format. Summoning shiva after pheonix when you would have summoned Garuda after Bahamut when both are just “summon casts aerial blast/diamond dust then 2-4 casts of gemshine + one slightly different astral flow”. The other example of a potential evolution IF they fixed the samey modularity would be allowing us to decide between 2 Demi’s and what primals they summon rather than a locked rotation

So basically evolution in a meaningful sense of the word would only occur through reconstruction of the jobs core job loop and the structure of its filler which we know from the way they design jobs they won’t do (except to make them easier with things like the healers, ergo the job; based on the way square changes jobs from expansion to expansion is functionally already at a dead end

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^first of all I’m going to ignore your “I feel like you (insert baseless speculation)” comments because I know despite how often you discuss wanting fair discussion what you really mean is you want us to be nice while you are free to fling around any insult and hyperbole you want

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Going to try to ignore this, since as far as I can tell, that's what you want.

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As to the point itself:

No.

Again, you're narrowing down the definitions of terms until they mean something vary narrow (and disparaging) to make a sophistry point of "technically, by definition...", except you've so narrowed the definition to where it's meaningless.

Potential: Capable of being but not yet in existence; latent or undeveloped.

Every Job has this. When you try to narrow it down to "only complete changes from what it is now to the point of abandoning what it is now in favor of something else", that's not how potential is defined.

Similar exercise with the concept of limited - you say within some constraints of the Job's design, but this is true of literally every Job in the game, yet I don't see you calling them this same thing.

Now you're using the term evolution/"evolution of the design of the job in a meaningful sense", which is PACKED with baggage. That's a lot of terms that could be defined a lot of ways and a lot of qualifiers instead of you just saying "You're right, it has potential and isn't really that boxed in". And never mind we're already multiple steps from your original statement:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Let’s be honest here where can they actually go with SMN as it is
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The job isn’t a solid foundation, it’s a dead end

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^ that was what you said. "where can they actually go" with it and "it's a dead end" not "a solid foundation".

It's clearly not "a dead end" the way you were using the term as they CAN clearly go a lot of places with it, which would make it, by your terms used there, "a solid foundation". You were incorrect in that post.

Now we're several steps removed from that worth of goalpost shifts on your part to "evolution of the design...in a meaningful sense". If you want to have a separate conversation we can, but we need to tie up the above one first that started this. Your initial statement was incorrect, and you've moved the goalposts several times to avoid admitting that, complete with (as is custom) a disparaging attack on me in the process.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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Being able to pick your Summon and not have them be almost entirely interchangeable? That much summon-related choice... on a Summoner? The heresy...

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Originally Posted by Renathras

SMN isn't overpowered by any definition of the term, though.

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Has "overpowered" ceased to refer to producing the same output at lesser risk and effort, or greater output at the same risk/effort?

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All the arguments for SMN numbers being higher now other than people enjoy/prize simpler things don't hold up when you realize ShB SMN had those things (and even better damage), yet it was played less then. The most logical answer seems to be: People do, indeed, prefer simpler things.

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Shadowbringer's vs. Endwalker's SMN's 95th+ percentile damage is relevant... to those vying for the outputs of a 95th+ percentile caster in that era. Which is not the majority of players.

And when a player can put out a good 10%+ more playing a middling SMN than playing RDM to the same degree of effort, especially while doing more complex of fight mechanics, yes, differing ease of output becomes a relevant factor that does have to be accounted for.

Which makes the player numbers not nearly so cut and dry to analyze as just 'the simpler, the more enjoyable'.

^Again if you would actually read my point ren rather than arguing semantics you would see that the changes that square might add will do nothing to actually change the job so really it doesn’t have any potential, shiva replacing Garuda is not potential

I’m consistent on This point, it’s why I don’t like current DRG, because 90 did what, changed the animation for true thrust, and chaotic spring, and upgraded geirskogul at 90, nothing about the job actually changes, there was simply more new pretty animations to replace the dated animations

If I had seen DRG’s rotation before it released I would have also said DRG is at a dead end (or at the very very minimum square is not capitalising on changes to the classes in meaningful ways), MCH, DNC, WAR, the healers also fell into this category with EW

Meanwhile BLM is an example of a job that got a fantastic new skill that can completely change how you interact with its rotation, that is an example of a job that got meaningful upgrades to its rotation, NIN is another example, double down makes no mercy awkward but it was a change that changes how GNB works so I would argue that as well

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Has "overpowered" ceased to refer to producing the same output at lesser risk and effort, or greater output at the same risk/effort?

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No.

It can't cease to have that definition since it's never had that definition.

Overpowered is defined as being too powerful for a given type of content or experience. For example, if BLM Flare did 999,999 damage, that would be overpowered since it would clearly make encounters easier than intended. Overpowered has never been defined as "relative to effort". Ever. I'm starting to wonder if our conflicts are less because we disagree on things and more because you have definitions of words that no one else shares...

What you're talking about is risk/reward or feeling something is more rewarded than it should be. Neither are related to the concept of being too powerful for content.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Shadowbringer's vs. Endwalker's SMN's 95th+ percentile damage is relevant... to those vying for the outputs of a 95th+ percentile caster in that era. Which is not the majority of players.

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Agreed. And those are the only people that care SMN does more damage than RDM. Casual players literally don't care. RDM and SMN are both highly played (and far higher) than BLM in casual content. Point being: This isn't why people are picking SMN, exactly the point I was making. People aren't picking SMN because "it's easy to do high damage" except for a very small portion of the playerbase, who would have been picking SMN for that reason before in ShB, meaning it cannot be the driver of the difference now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And when a player can put out a good 10%+ more playing a middling SMN than playing RDM to the same degree of effort, especially while doing more complex of fight mechanics, yes, differing ease of output becomes a relevant factor that does have to be accounted for.

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Again, this isn't relevant for the majority of the playerbase. AT BEST, it's relevant for a sliver of the midcore.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which makes the player numbers not nearly so cut and dry to analyze as just 'the simpler, the more enjoyable'.

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I agree it's not 100% "simpler = more enjoyable". But that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the people saying "simpler = LESS enjoyable" are wrong. That is, simpler is at least part of the calculation, and for lots or even a majority of players, the lion's share. You have zero evidence to oppose this other than you don't like simple (and you're part of that "Which is not the majority of players" group), and seem not to want it to be true since it makes arguments for changing SMN far more difficult if the bulk of players actually DO enjoy it because it's simpler. In other words, it's an attempt to defuse an opposition to your position, but a very poor one.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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/sigh

It's not a semantics argument.

There's potential and SMN is a good foundation. Whether they use that or not is a question - I suspect they will, though I suspect it won't be a way you enjoy.

But, that doesn't mean it's a "dead end", it just means the avenues it is likely to advance along are not ones you will enjoy.

And that's okay. It's okay for there to be one or two Jobs in this game of 19 that you don't care for. I don't like over half of them. I just don't play those ones. I recognize that not every Job needs to be made for me and am not so selfish that I'd demand it. It's okay for there to be some Jobs for the rest of the playerbase who like different things from me.

It'd be nice if everyone felt that way.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

/sigh

It's not a semantics argument.

There's potential and SMN is a good foundation. Whether they use that or not is a question - I suspect they will, though I suspect it won't be a way you enjoy.

But, that doesn't mean it's a "dead end", it just means the avenues it is likely to advance along are not ones you will enjoy.

And that's okay. It's okay for there to be one or two Jobs in this game of 19 that you don't care for. I don't like over half of them. I just don't play those ones. I recognize that not every Job needs to be made for me and am not so selfish that I'd demand it. It's okay for there to be some Jobs for the rest of the playerbase who like different things from me.

It'd be nice if everyone felt that way.

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Makes up an entire other post in a different forum about how you are an attacked battler and don’t understand why you are being treated the way you are

Proceeds to not even have an argument in this post beyond “you are selfish for wanting the job to be exactly what you want” when that’s exactly not my point, I DONT CARE ABOUT SMN, it’s never been my main it never will be my main, I already have DNC for “I want to turn off my brain and be a DPS”, my only point with SMN is that shiva after pheonix with the same 3 casts of gemshine plus a slightly different astral flow is not job potential and square has shown they are totally unable to give the jobs real meaningful changes (except BLM and a few other jobs by accident)

You are free to disagree with that, but argue that with actual reasons as to why you think they will innovate the job, how they could do it in a short level span and give examples of a job that already had an existing similar change, not what you are doing right now which basically amounts to “I think you are using the word potential wrong so therefore your argument is invalid”

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Has "overpowered" ceased to refer to producing the same output at lesser risk and effort, or greater output at the same risk/effort?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Overpowered is defined as being too powerful for a given type of content or experience. For example, if BLM Flare did 999,999 damage, that would be overpowered since it would clearly make encounters easier than intended. Overpowered has never been defined as "relative to effort". Ever. I'm starting to wonder if our conflicts are less because we disagree on things and more because you have definitions of words that no one else shares...

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These two definitions are compatible with each other.

For example: BLM Flare doing 999,999 damage compared to what it does now is obviously "greater output at the same risk/effort." It's also obviously "too powerful for [FFXIV's encounter design and job design]."

If we have job A, and job B "[produces] the same output at lesser risk and effort," at some point, a sufficient amount of "lesser risk and effort" becomes "too powerful for a given type of content" because it would "make encounters easier than intended."[1]

If we have job A, and job B "[produces] greater output at the same risk/effort," at some point, a sufficient amount of "greater output" becomes "too powerful for a given type of content" because it would "make encounters easier than intended."

And I can say something similar for all the points on that output vs. risk/effort spectrum.

[1] In the concrete case where job B is SMN, the obvious counter here is that maybe SE intended the current situation. Fair enough, given that I don't think we know SE's mind one way or another. But I think it's also fair to consider here what players desire. It's not hard to imagine that there are extremes, e.g., BLM Flare @ 999,999, that would not be desired by everyone. It's also not hard to imagine less extreme designs that would engender some amount of debate...

I never liked SUmmoner Personally, I just played Scholar since Im a Healer Main and it also lvs Summoner.
But a Job I hope to see improved is Ast. And Im a little nervous how Dragoon will change, not so much worried about dumbing it down, but that they will just mess it up entierly

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I never liked SUmmoner Personally, I just played Scholar since Im a Healer Main and it also lvs Summoner.
But a Job I hope to see improved is Ast. And Im a little nervous how Dragoon will change, not so much worried about dumbing it down, but that they will just mess it up entierly

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SMN rework has me VERY concerned for DRG

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Proceeds to not even have an argument in this post beyond “you are selfish for wanting the job to be exactly what you want”

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Oh look, a thing I didn't do or say. "But you said you aren't selfish and so IMPLIED!!!" no, I said I'm not selfish and don't demand it. I didn't say anything about you or anyone else. This isn't a "I'm not touching you!!" thing. I'm not selfish when it comes to Jobs - you know this. What do I say all the time; healers, tanks, dps, it doesn't matter? That there should be something for everyone, and me not liking a thing doesn't make it bad. I hold everyone else to the same standard I hold myself to, no more and no less.

This is yet another case of you reading things into my posts that aren't there, getting mad at me for something you made up, and then thinking you can attack me over it instead of addressing my arguments themselves since you've justified that in your mind by calling me names first.

I made an argument:

There's potential and SMN is a good foundation, I suspect they will use it, though I suspect it won't be something you enjoy, that there's nothing wrong with that, and you not enjoying what they do does not make it a dead end.

Each of these things are arguments.

Now, you want me to present reasons behind the arguments. I already did:

They've literally never had a Job they didn't add something to in an expansion, and I can't see 6.X SMN being the first time they don't add something. The Job is not so locked down that there's nothing to add, and their history has been 100% of the time changing something about every Job with every expansion, so the onus is on you to prove that they won't this time.

"innovate the job" isn't it, though. You're asking me to defend arguments I haven't made but that you want to argue instead. Which of my posts did I say they would "innovate the job"? As I said three posts back, you're trying to change the subject.

ALL I was saying in reply to you like 10 posts ago was you said it was a dead end with no room for growth. That is wrong.

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"If a man is determined to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen." -Ginun, to Captain Riker, Best of Both Worlds Part 1, Star Trek: The Next Generation

If you're determined to find SOMETHING in my posts to take as an insult, I can't stop you, and you will find something, even if you have to have it implied, interpreted, out outright imagine it. But then you're just using your own imagination to justify your belief that I'm trying to slight you, not my own words or my own intent. Perhaps the reason you treat me the way you do isn't anything at all to do with what I say OR how I say it, but rather, because you've decided to be insulted no matter what I say, and are just waiting for something you can use from SOME part of my posts in order to justify what you already want to be true.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

These two definitions are compatible with each other.

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Compatible? Hm... one is a far bigger judgement call than the other.

Godmode is obviously overpowered, but "this Job is too easy for the damage output it gets" is far less obvious. The concept of something "breaking the game" is very easy to see and identify. Most people would agree that, for example, PLD Cover in PvP covering an ally while they take an objective making it impossible to prevent the objective being captured is likely not an intended feature and, with no actual counter, overpowered. But "SMN does too little effort for the amount of damage it does" is not so clear cut. How much is too much? How much is too little? Of the range that's just right, why does SMN fall outside of it? How do you specifically define easy, and how do you define TOO easy? Alternatively, how do you define TOO much damage? Can you define acceptable risk/reward damage output in terms of potency? How do you quantify (not qualify) a Job's rotational complexity to make an objective measure of effort vs reward? How much effort SHOULD be required for a unit of potency?

The other issue is that they aren't the same thing. That is, one requires something to be broken or make encounters not have the intended difficulty. SE clearly thinks that SMN (and other similarly non-complex Jobs like WAR, DNC, etc) have the adequate experience they want for the end user. That would mean they aren't overpowered.

They clearly aren't broken.

So no, I don't think the definitions are the same or really compatible with one another. Overpowered isn't "relative to effort". It's "this thing breaks the game". That isn't compatible with a definition of overpowered that IS relative to effort. Thus the two definitions are not compatible.

^ ren I’m gonna be honest, I don’t care about you one way or another, I don’t actively dislike you because I acknowledge that underneath everything at some points you are actively trying to make legit discussions

What I don’t like is the fact that you are perhaps the only person on the forums who argues in (mostly) good faith initially that can’t take a rebuttal to your post or will reply to someone else’s post with thinly veiled insults then act offended when people bite back at you

I’ve argued for like 5 posts on here with you about the fact that changes square are likely to implement to SMN do not constitute meaningful change in my eyes, presented changes they are extremely unlikely to implement that would constitute meaningful changes in my eyes and argued based on squares job design why they are unlikely to implement them, I don’t care about arguing semantics with you over whether this counts as “potential” or not, to me this constitutes a dead end so I wrote it that way

In the same 5 posts I’ve got functionally nothing from you; I’ve already told you why I don’t see Garuda being replaced with shiva as meaningful progression of the job but you just keep reiterating it as if it’s a new point, nor have I said you are wrong for thinking that is meaningful progression (it doesn’t change my initial point that I believe the job is at a dead end). And on top of that I have been told I don’t know the definitions of things, been told I’m selfish (I’m not even going to try to argue with you about how “I’m not selfish” because of x when x and y are opposing opinions in a two way conversation implies y is selfish so I’ll just ignore that and not take offence) and then when (as usual) I have gotten sick of it and bit back you play the victim

I’m happy to have my mind changed, Reiner changes my mind daily, so does semi, forsaken roe has done it multiple times, hell even vel makes decent points now and then, they all don’t argue in a way that makes people want to actively resist your point

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Originally Posted by Renathras

ALL I was saying in reply to you like 10 posts ago was you said it was a dead end with no room for growth. That is wrong.

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This is literally a binary isn’t it? Either it has or hasn’t room for growth.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

This is literally a binary isn’t it? Either it has or hasn’t room for growth.

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I said it was a dead end as in the rotation is locked down, it’s avenues of evolution are limited and most ideas presented are unlikely because they involve fundamental changes to the design of the rotation

Ren then took this as meaning that it physically cannot change at all, leading to the argument as to whether swapping Garuda out for shiva after phenoix with the same 3-4 casts of gemshine+a random astral flow does or doesn’t count as meaningful change

I say it doesn’t which is why I say SMN is at a dead end

Perhaps a fresh way to look at this is to look at what DNC got for EW.

In short, it lost 2 procs in it's burst (The PBAOE and Targeted procs getting merged into 1) window and gained 3 from memory? That and a cooldown reduction to 90 seconds on Shield Samba is it if I remember right (Not a DNC main!)

On a positive angle, it's fair to say that these changes added pressure to the 2 minute burst window with the sequence you do your burst also gaining some importance as well as a 'correct' burst granting you that extra ogcd.

On a negative angle, it's also fair to say that in reality, EW's DNC changes amounted to them shuffling your hotbars and potencies a little with a cooldown reduction on Samba being the 'cherry on top'.

Right now, even with the negative stance I don't think it's a significant problem to get an update like this just yet because the job was still new, fairly fresh and has generally garners positive opinions on itself. That will likely change for the worse if DNC continues to get minor nip and tuck tweaks for successive expansions though IMO.

Will SMN get afforded that same luxury? I'm not so sure, whilst it's still a 'fresh' job in terms of it's rework, it's vastly more polarising than DNC has ever been. If EW lands and it's updates amount to a few oGCDs shuffling around I doubt it's going to be pretty.

On a side note, this sort of thing is exactly why I keep repeating that SE *need* to expand their job design team yesterday.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ealer-designer.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Perhaps a fresh way to look at this is to look at what DNC got for EW.

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DNC is a good example of taking away something and replacing it with something else. But if we want an example of a job not evolving whatsoever, we have that too, I direct your attention to MCH. They got Chainsaw, that's it, that's all they got from 80 to 90, everything else is a minor potency increase. One can probably argue that MCH got Dismantle, but that's an old thing that was re-added and it doesn't even do anything to change how MCH plays, so I wouldn't count it.

Given that there does exist an example of the dev team doing a hard reset on a job and then not doing anything more in the following expansion, can any blame really be placed on people who aren't excited for SMN's prospective future?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

DNC is a good example of taking away something and replacing it with something else. But if we want an example of a job not evolving whatsoever, we have that too, I direct your attention to MCH. They got Chainsaw, that's it, that's all they got from 80 to 90, everything else is a minor potency increase. One can probably argue that MCH got Dismantle, but that's an old thing that was re-added and it doesn't even do anything to change how MCH plays, so I wouldn't count it.

Given that there does exist an example of the dev team doing a hard reset on a job and then not doing anything more in the following expansion, can any blame really be placed on people who aren't excited for SMN's prospective future?

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MCH is also a good example of a job that like SMN has a very rigid rotation so you can’t really do anything with it that is all that meaningful

Your filler is your 1-2-3 with the occasional drill, your burst is basically just wildfire/dump your oGCD’s/summon your (not) DOT/hypercharge window

If they wanted to meaningfully change MCH they would either need to change the hypercharge window or change the 1-2-3 filler, because otherwise you are really just tinkering around the edges with an oGCD or two; this is exactly why I have zero faith in SMN doing anything special because that’s exactly what they did, added chainsaw which you just dump in the wildfire window

Isn't there like, only one GCD free in the SMN rotation per minute right now? One single filler ruin3, everything else is fully occupied by the gem stuff and Baha/Phoenix phases. And a random Ruin 4 once a minute. So it looks to me like the only options they have is to MCH it: a bunch of potency upgrade traits/VFX changes that don't change the rotation (summoning the missing 3 primals after Phoenix, for example), and then one final GCD that fills that last Ruin 3 spot

The rework's only been out for one expansion and already they're painted into a corner on 'how much room is there to add new things'

As a question to all, what would be an example of a good change made by an expansion to a job?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The rework's only been out for one expansion and already they're painted into a corner on 'how much room is there to add new things'

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With different summons it means different mechanics in each one and whilst there is only 1 free GCD slot in the whole rotation, you can argue Enkindle does nothing in the gem summons, so there could be something there and Gemshine/Precious Brilliance does nothing in the Demi phase, so there is potential there as well. They could also draw from past Summoner in executing the Aetherflow attacks build a resource to do something else.

Whether this is the route they go or not is a different question entirely, but the potential for something else is still there.