I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

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That's been true since Stormblood and they still find more flavor-of-the-month unengaging heal gimmicks to cram in.

"But look! Here's a mechanic that's just perfect for Lilybell (because we added it so Lilybell would seem useful)!"

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

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I can guarantee you that at least 1-2 slots will be wasted for traits that don't add or change anything about the job, maybe an extra charge for something if you're lucky. On top of that, there's also the filler spam/DoT/AoE spell upgrade that will just add some teensy potency or whatever. So... 2-3 actual new skills at best, which will sure as hell be even more bloated healing buttons.

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

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This is one of the main cruxes of the matter, I think. They said 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' going into EW, and it got Expedience as a result. Now, Expedience is cool, but at the end of the day, it's main use is as a 10%, 20s mit that sticks as a buff to allies. This makes it a tool that fills a gap in SCH's kit, of 'mitigation that doesn't require standing in a specific location to partake' (like Soil demands of the team). But, by locking off 'more damage buttons' as a design choice, the devs paint themselves into a corner about what can be added. More healing tools will be superfluous and unrequired by 98% of the content in the game. More 'utilities' get suggested and shot down because they're either useful to the point of being pseudo-mandatory or 'pointless after prog' tools. So all SE can really add is just... more mitigation tools, and then make the 'hard content' encounters demand... more mitigation. So we end up in this spiral where raidwides in week 1 Savage are sometimes asking for, across the whole team, 30% plus shields to live through, because everyone and their mother can now provide mitigation of some kind.

All this to avoid giving us more damage skills, even ones that would be ignoreable in 98% of content. Like, Energy Drain's a good example. Using zero Energy Drains in every piece of content in the game does not cause you to hit enrage just on its own. It doesn't add up to enough 'lost damage' to do so. So we just need these theoretical 'optimal damage gains' from these new skills, to be low enough in impact such that it's a gain (so optimizers can optimize it), but not enough of a gain to suddenly wall people because 'they can't do the new rotation' (even though tanks and DPS are expected to 'do a new rotation' every time there's an expansion, and sometimes because of balance patches). Energy Drain, and not using it because of using Aetherflow heals, is 300p per minute (not including Dissipation trickery). So the devs need to just make the potency per minute penalty for 'doing it wrong' be low. With SCH for example:

Broil V: 300p
Bio: 350p over 30s
Miasma: 340p over 24s
Shadowflare: 350p over 15s

So if you were to ignore EVERY one of those DOTs, for the entire fight, instead spamming Broils in their place, you'd lose a total of 500p, per minute. Which is 1.66 Broil V per minute. Even if you played 'current rotation' with this, that is, only refreshing Bio twice a minute and Broiling the rest (ignoring the two new buttons entirely), it'd be 300p lost, the same as 'used heals instead of Energy Drain' can potentially cost you. And these are just example numbers. It could be Bio 325, Miasma 320, Shadowflare 310 and make the 'potential damage lost' be even lower if desired

In comparison, if you were to spam Broil IV and not use Biolysis as it currently exists, you'd be losing 810p per minute

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I can guarantee you that at least 1-2 slots will be wasted for traits that don't add or change anything about the job, maybe an extra charge for something if you're lucky. On top of that, there's also the filler spam/DoT/AoE spell upgrade that will just add some teensy potency or whatever. So... 2-3 actual new skills at best, which will sure as hell be even more bloated healing buttons.

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My prediction for WHM is the same as everyone else, Purgation as a 2min CD GCD, is literally Pneuma but has a regen attached (eg 500p heal and 5x100p as regen) for the 100 skill, and for 96, to compete with Aquaveil for 'most 'why did we get this skill we didn't even really need it' skill', Salt And Darkness healing version, which makes Asylum do a blast of an additional 400p of healing (thereby making it's HOT overheal even more often)

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I can guarantee you that at least 1-2 slots will be wasted for traits that don't add or change anything about the job, maybe an extra charge for something if you're lucky. On top of that, there's also the filler spam/DoT/AoE spell upgrade that will just add some teensy potency or whatever. So... 2-3 actual new skills at best, which will sure as hell be even more bloated healing buttons.

Please look forward to it.

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I think I'd rather see 'trait-based waste' than 'use this for mechanics of precisely type X that were added only to make this feel like it has a place (all while reducing complexity by removing the need to use less tailored options)' actions.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it? If AST got it's APM distribution reorganized to be more 'consistent' instead of being a doubleweave nightmare in 2min windows, and more focus on buffing for it's RDPS contribution instead of Malefics, wouldn't that make AST's design more suited for someone who doesn't want to have a complex damage rotation? Maybe that's an option worth looking into, though of course, some (sorry Skel) would not be a fan of AST being the 'left behind' one, but that's true regardless of which one gets left behind, hence the solution should be 'don't leave any behind, just have the 'extra optimiziation stuff' be optional'. Consider these extra suggested buttons as a speedrunning technique like BLJs. You don't have to BLJ to get up the staircase.

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I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

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I agree that some would, however while the percentage of AST wanting more damage was lower than the other healers, it was substantial. Unless that design allowed for significant improvements in solo content then yes, I would complain.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

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I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

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If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

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I started AST in Shb.

I still want another DPS button. I don't care if it gets the least, but I still want more than 2.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

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I understand your point. However my point in of view is that the first design iteration of anything is rarely (if ever) optimal (and it can be argued that with SE they made AST worse with further releases). So just because something was designed , or has specific functions in its first design typically doesn't mean that it won't have changes in future, so nothing should be sacrosanct - especially since we only guess at some of the reasons for SE design decisions.

You haven't convinced me AST should only have 2 DPS abilities (note that I'm not constraining that to buttons)- I fully agree with ASkellington, it may end up with the least DPS skills but the current overused 2 is definitely lacking in engagement.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You haven't convinced me AST should only have 2 DPS abilities (note that I'm not constraining that to buttons)- I fully agree with ASkellington, it may end up with the least DPS skills but the current overused 2 is definitely lacking in engagement.

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Exactly where did I say they couldn't have more? Point it out for me, please. My point is only that AST never had many damage buttons, not that they can never have any more. I personally wouldn't mind if we returned wholesale to SB AST where they had most of their engagement come from the card system, I'd wager most AST mains from back then wouldn't mind the 2 DoTs and 1 filler either.

Honestly, for how much you guys jump on Ren for drawing his own conclusions and putting words in your mouths, you're also doing the same thing to me right now.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Since all we have is anecdotes, how can you say with any certainty that it is prevalent?

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Because I've seen it and a smattering of other people have seen it.

I suppose it depends on how narrowly people wish to define things, but saying it never happens means 0%. If it's even 10%, it's more than that. Then you get into that weird thing in statistics where, because of various interactions, a given % actually has much higher expression. Like I forget the exact number, but the odds of two people in a room having the same day of the year as birthday? You'd think the closer you get to 365, the closer it gets to 100% odds. Maybe half that (~180) should be pretty close to 100% chance. It's something like 30. If you have around 30 people in a room, you have strong odds that two have the same birthday, despite only having 10% of the people you need to canvass the whole year.

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

The people who get called out aren't the types to complain on internet forums. They're more likely to just suck it up or to quit the game and move on.

We know it does happen, and that is sufficient.

Also, did I say "being sub-optimal"? I thought I said something like "only healing and not casting any damage spells", which...while TECHNICALLY sub-optimal is akin to saying a person a million dollars in debt is "broke". While technically true, it's not the correct descriptor.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I've already answered most of this and rebutted it.

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Not a good way to start a post but...

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I'm only going to talk about two things here.

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1) It may not work, but it's where we are. I don't think one is more breakable than the other. If they're willing to compromise on one, they would be on both. I think it's more on what that entails and how they do it, but I very much think they'd be more willing to bend on the "more healing" between the two. It may not be rational, it may not math out, and you may have good arguments to oppose that, but you have to ask yourself what are the devs thinking and how would they deal with this, and I don't think more damage is the solution they would reach. Not you, not me, them.

2) Holy being AOE isn't relevant, though - Misery is AOE and is used in the single target rotation. And if we look at non-healers, we see this a lot. Primal Rend and Confieteor combo are AOEs, RDM's post-melee spell combo are AOEs, SMN's Primals and Astral Flows and Enkindles are all AOEs. These are also all used in the single target rotation. They don't replace them in the AOE rotation. PLD and WAR use theirs whether single target or AOE, and likewise SMN and RDM. As for Assize - I'm fine with removing the healing from it. Gosh knows it's rarely used for that as it is. I guess these are cases of "I see what you're saying...but I disagree, and my disagreement is based on other things extant in the system already." I even explained to you why I thought Holy SHOULD be more powerful and more prevalent, something you rejected out of hand without consideration of my position at all. (That is, from my perspective, it seems like you didn't give me any consideration, you just decided you didn't care for that perspective or idea and just ...rejected it with no thought to how that would make me feel.)

How's that?

I am, for what it's worth, not trying to put words in your mouth. I genuinely see them as the same thing, hence the conflict. I see no reason to add more buttons when we could just make more efficient use of the ones we have. I feel the same way for heals, too, btw; which is why I often propose combining various buttons (some of which you disagree with).

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Unsurprising he's not reading your post, given that he appears to be not reading quotes of his own posts either (or he is and just doesn't realize what he said in them)

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Ah, Roe.

Another bad take, but...

I mean, considering I just read his post, your unsurprising seems to be surprising.

DISAGREE WITH PEOPLE'S POSITIONS is not what "didn't read" means.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Bit patronizing to ask such a thing, no?

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I'm actually not sure it is. Or, rather, I'm not sure how to make the point to you, since I've tried a number of ways and either you just refuse to see it or I haven't stumbled on the one yet that will get through to you. I've said it plainly and you refuse to accept it, or even entertain it. I'll try again in the spirit of good faith, so let's see if you consider it this time:

Some people are good at healing and managing people's health bars but really not good at doing DPS rotations. So more healing requirements wouldn't phase them while more damage buttons/a damage rotation more complex than the present would.

The "low end of the skill floor" has no trouble pressing Medica over and over again.

Does that make sense to you or does it not?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And yet, one of your biggest gripes with what I've suggested for WHM is...

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Adding an even more annoying version of a thing I already dislike; an upkeep DoT that is boring and has no useful or interesting interaction and would have to completely change the kit to be given one. I even showed you alternate ways to do things. For example, my Holy Might method would add SIX more non-Glare casts a minute (5.something, but you get the idea) with the Holy casts. But unlike a 12 sec Dia, that isn't ANNOYING.

I've proposed GCD heals nourishing the Blood Lily.

I've proposed Holy contributing to Misery.

I've proposed several different things making more Misery casts.

I've proposed making Assize a GCD.

I've made a lot of proposals that ARE NOT DOTS and give more other button presses while not adding obnoxious or unnecessary complexity and been consistently rejected. That does lead to frustration after a while, as you can surely imagine. Especially when I've made proposals to do the same thing but because they aren't a bloody DoT, it's not good enough because people have a damned love affair with DoTs for some reason; the single kind of damage spell I hate most in all of gaming.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I'm going to be nice, as I've done several times in the past, and believe he's misunderstanding what I'm saying.

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Just so you know, I may not have seen the post. If I haven't replied to one directly, anyway, or if I replied to only one part of one. I do try to read everyone's posts, even long ones, though, but I don't always get to all the points in the if I don't have time.

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Originally Posted by Rawr18

Honestly, other than DPS spells, what else CAN they add for the next expansion? We already have more than enough healing spells, lol.

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Honestly, there's going to have to be some kind of record-skip correction at some point. Personally, I don't think "new thing" is always a good thing, or even good design in games, especially if everything in the old thing worked for those who enjoyed it (ask Old SMN fans). But I don't think the healing kits and encounter design being at odds with one another works. At some point, something is going to have to give...I mean, I guess it doesn't HAVE to, but I feel like it will happen eventually. Probably encounter design paired with some version of the 4 Healers Model, but who knows for sure? We'll find out when it happens.

I think the AST rework is going to be the big pointer to what direction they want to go, but we'll have to see both what it is AND how it works in the content to see where things go from there.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

You want one healer to remain as is, for the people 'who like the current gameplay'. So, in terms of damage GCDs, what if we have AST stay as it currently is, and change the other three? WHM SCH SGE all get more damage buttons, AST gets it's rework to make it less clunky to play (presumably card changes again), but keeps it's current GCD gameplay of Malefic and 2 Combusts a minute. This fulfills the '4 healers' thing you keep asking for, doesn't it?

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For the record - you do realize, since you speak of having read other people's posts - that I have said this exact thing before, right?

I shy away from proposing changes to AST because it's the one Healer Job I really don't like playing, and I'd rather leave it to the people that enjoy it and them leave one of the ones I play (literally any of the other three) for me to enjoy, and we can then all enjoy the game together happily...

...but I've said on more than one occasion if AST was the one, then I'd suck it up and be content with that. Not necessarily happy, but content. But that the change would require a severe reduction in its APM - to WHM levels - which basically means making the Cards GCDs (I even proposed a way this could happen, making the next Malific's damage boost by +100%, stacking up to 4 times or whatever, each time Draw and Play are used; in effect, this would make Cards work like Misery, just without an additional button...) and reducing the weaving.

But yes, that WOULD, provided it meets that requirement, satisfy the 4 Healer Model.

I've literally said so before.

I think AST is the least logical choice to do so, mind you - WHM has always more or less been what it is now and starts at level 1, SGE has ALWAYS been what it is now, so either one of those would be more logical; SCH makes the third spot as it branches from arguably the easiest Job in the game (ACN) meaning SCH/SMN both being easy would be a one-stop-shop for players wanting simple gameplay. AST makes the least logical sense as it would require a total rework of how it works to cut its APM down to WHM level, and would VERY likely alienate everyone that plays and enjoys the Job and pines for it to return to one of its older incarnations.

For that reason, I think it's the worst candidate.

But I have said if that was how it shook down, I'd live with it, and that it would satisfy the concept of the 4 Healers Model. I just think it would alienate far more people than leaving WHM or SGE alone, and would require a total rework of AST and "dumbing down" of it which would likely piss off far more people than leaving WHM untouched.

So yeah, I have literally suggested this before - I think...twice? Maybe three times? - I just thought it was the worst of the possible choices. But that isn't the same as discounting it, it's just saying that it's the least good option to go with.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't think this would be a major problem for AST mains given that AST never had much of a damage rotation to begin with. If we get back interesting cards and interactions surrounding it again, I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke.

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The problem here is it wouldn't have "interesting cards and interactions". Or...not what you would likely consider such, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

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Hm...to be fair, wasn't this generally true of WHM as well? SB WHM had two DoTs (Aero1/2 [upgrade], Aero 3) and a filler (Stone or Holy). It didn't have Misery in SB at all (basically traded Aero 3 for Afflatus spells in the SB to ShB transition), and Assize was (and is) a oGCD just like Earthly Star.

The only healer this WASN'T true of in SB was SCH.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Exactly where did I say they couldn't have more? Point it out for me, please. My point is only that AST never had many damage buttons, not that they can never have any more. I personally wouldn't mind if we returned wholesale to SB AST where they had most of their engagement come from the card system, I'd wager most AST mains from back then wouldn't mind the 2 DoTs and 1 filler either.

Honestly, for how much you guys jump on Ren for drawing his own conclusions and putting words in your mouths, you're also doing the same thing to me right now.

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...and this is why I think it should be WHM or SGE that stays the way it is. (Also, it's different seeing things from the other side, isn't it? "Happens to me all the time..." -Indiana Jones, when his father, Henry, remarked they were being shot at). I feel like AST players would MUCH rather have their SB gameplay back. I think most WHM players would NOT like to go back to WHM's SB state. When sober minded, I think most everyone CAN agree that WHM in SB was pretty bad, even if you don't outright agree with me that it was the single worst iteration of it in FFXIV's history. ShB and EW WHM work far better, and the irony is that with Solace/Rapture and Misery, WHM in EW is less Glarespammy than SB WHM was Stonespammy, as I proved in the "Helaers: Then and Now" thread. SB WHM was even LESS interactive than current WHM is in terms of its rotation.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If you've played AST in SB, you'd know they had 2 DoTs and 1 filler. That's not exactly a lot either. Solo play is more a damage scaling issue than number of buttons issue. My point is that AST never had many damage buttons since inception.

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Actually Astros only had 1 dot in stormblood. THey just had Malefic 3 and combust 2. The other damage actions were earthly star and random minor arcana single target lord which was rng. It was heavensward where they actually had 4 dps buttons. Malefic 2, combust, combust 2 and aero. The thing that stormblood did was reduce their cast time to 1.5 for the card weaving.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

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By what warrant? You're using this as an excuse to limit what options for engagement are available to any and all players, not just that maybe-up-to-10% thereof, so what makes this theoretical risk worth that cost?

Putting aside the conflation between broader community issues and just what part would be impacted by differences in gameplay/combat design... Keeping jobs simple tends to make it all the clearer whether someone is performing well or poorly, because the elements that differentiate a player are just those that are obvious and thereby visible, and thereby more easily tracked.

"Poor play" is relative, after all, to either ability to meet normal visible thresholds or to maintain visible routines of generally preferable action (using one's skills, not standing in bad); gameplay's effect on how likely one is to be called out for it comes down only to tuning (a separate issue unless specifically asking for nerfs) and the how easy it is to eyeball whether one is playing at least halfway decently. And the current simplicity gives us quite nearly the most transparency ("ability for others to know with high reliability, even with just minimal/peripheral effort, that/when you're screwing up") we've ever had.

A small increase to depth available to healers in their downtime does not increase the 'risk' of being 'found out' for being bad -- quite the opposite.

But more importantly, even if that risk were increased instead, why should that potential 'risk' to a subsection of a subsection of players happening upon a rare circumstance... outweigh any and all potential benefits of that added ceiling?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Hm...to be fair, wasn't this generally true of WHM as well? SB WHM had two DoTs (Aero1/2 [upgrade], Aero 3) and a filler (Stone or Holy). It didn't have Misery in SB at all (basically traded Aero 3 for Afflatus spells in the SB to ShB transition), and Assize was (and is) a oGCD just like Earthly Star.

The only healer this WASN'T true of in SB was SCH.

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A lot of people who joined in ShB have been repeating certain phrases until it kind of spread out all over the role at this point. Having lived through that era of going into ShB, the exact arguments were:
WHM: "Give us back our nature spells and Aero III"
SCH: "Give us back our damage spells and Energy Drain"
AST: "Give us back our card effects and associated systems"

Only SCH mains specifically mentioned damage spells back then. I don't think any AST main in SB complained about the reduction in dps spells. In fact, everyone used to call the gutting of dps spells "a reduction to the AST dps rotation". WHM mains did complain about losing Aero III though.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Actually Astros only had 1 dot in stormblood. THey just had Malefic 3 and combust 2. The other damage actions were earthly star and random minor arcana single target lord which was rng. It was heavensward where they actually had 4 dps buttons. Malefic 2, combust, combust 2 and aero. The thing that stormblood did was reduce their cast time to 1.5 for the card weaving.

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Did SB combine the single target DoTs? I don't clearly remember that part, I just remembered it was Combust II and assumed they had 2 DoTs, 1 casted and 1 instant.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The problem here is it wouldn't have "interesting cards and interactions". Or...not what you would likely consider such, anyway.

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What I want is different from what I'm fine with. I've said before that I'd be satisfied if they reverted AST and SCH back to the SB playstyle, though I'd prefer a playstyle more like HW SMN myself, but I can see that not everyone wants or enjoys something so convoluted. SB, however, is a decent baseline which most can accept to be a good compromise between HW and ShB.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Did SB combine the single target DoTs? I don't clearly remember that part, I just remembered it was Combust II and assumed they had 2 DoTs, 1 casted and 1 instant.

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Ye Stromblood combined all the single target dots for the healer classes. For whm they just had aero which upgraded to aero 2, and still had aero 3 for aoe dots. SCH had bio upgraded to bio 3 while still keeping miasma and then getting miasma 2 as an aoe dot since they lacked an aoe and they had nerfed bane heavily into the ground. Astro had combust upgraded into combust 2 and lacked an aoe dot.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

This is REALLY anecdotal stuff.

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And this is precisely why you are viewed as a complete joke.,

When was the last time you actually backed up your various overly long diatribes with actual facts?

Was it actually the 1T1H2DPS thread that you got completely wrong but still tried to double down on? That certainly worked out well didn't it.

You have absolutely *ZERO* right to hand wave off other peoples views as anecdotal given that's *ALL YOU EVER DO YOURSELF*

One day you'll realise, I only hope I'm there to see it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And this is precisely why you are viewed as a complete joke.,

When was the last time you actually backed up your various overly long diatribes with actual facts?

Was it actually the 1T1H2DPS thread that you got completely wrong but still tried to double down on? That certainly worked out well didn't it.

You have absolutely *ZERO* right to hand wave off other peoples views as anecdotal given that's *ALL YOU EVER DO YOURSELF*

One day you'll realise, I only hope I'm there to see it.

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I’ve worse I’ve had him throw survey evidence in the trash I’ve provided because he says since it’s outdated then in the same sentence attempt to counter said evidence with anecdotes and act like it’s a valid equivalent refutal

Healer gameplay should revolve around HEALING, not DPSING.
Asking healers to be more like dps..is like asking healers to become DPS..
Why play healer..when in truth you wanna dps ?.


Instead:
Let healers use their whole HEALER toolkit ! LET US USE OUR HEALS!!
I dont want to press x more meaningless/worthless dps buttons..

Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

- More dmg during fights ( dot dmg/dispel-mech)
- More random unavoidable dmg..
- Remove self-heal/ress from other roles..

Instead of putting all that energy into asking for x more dps button.
How about fighting to get actually healer gameplay into picture instead!
People who enjoy healing.. do so because they enjoy the healing aspect of it..
not the **** 3 dps buttons we have!..


I said my piece..
not gonna reply anyone
or argue about it.

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Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

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Nope downtime would still exist, when you are skilled enough as a healer downtime will always be a thing. ALWAYS. It even existed in ARR! I'm all for one with increasing healing requirements too but we should really be looking at these things as two separate issues that fall under job design as a whole. The FFXIV healer should be a balance where you answer the call to extreme healing but focus on dps on your downtime, as that's how it's always been to some extent. Our healing should not be replaceable, just as our damage contributed should not be replaceable. The game, and devs, need to factor that healers are an entity (not just a placeholder). Unfortunately their game design would have healers bring 0 value in a good team, in which case they become replaceable for dps, and they, the devs, haven't realized or don't care that it's a bad job design. We need to watch the jobs burn before they can rise anew, and hopefully the continuing of button bloat on heal buttons will finally bring the job to dwindle to a critical state that they need to do something lel.

Also when did 3-5 buttons extra dictact a dps? If anything that's still less than what tanks get lel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I said my piece..
not gonna reply anyone
or argue about it.

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Imagine having so little confidence in your own opinions that you just outright refuse to defend them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Because I've seen it and a smattering of other people have seen it.

I suppose it depends on how narrowly people wish to define things, but saying it never happens means 0%. If it's even 10%, it's more than that. Then you get into that weird thing in statistics where, because of various interactions, a given % actually has much higher expression. Like I forget the exact number, but the odds of two people in a room having the same day of the year as birthday? You'd think the closer you get to 365, the closer it gets to 100% odds. Maybe half that (~180) should be pretty close to 100% chance. It's something like 30. If you have around 30 people in a room, you have strong odds that two have the same birthday, despite only having 10% of the people you need to canvass the whole year.

So if it's even 10%, that turns out to be pretty prevalent.

In short, the threshold for "prevalent" is still relatively small.

The people who get called out aren't the types to complain on internet forums. They're more likely to just suck it up or to quit the game and move on.

We know it does happen, and that is sufficient.

Also, did I say "being sub-optimal"? I thought I said something like "only healing and not casting any damage spells", which...while TECHNICALLY sub-optimal is akin to saying a person a million dollars in debt is "broke". While technically true, it's not the correct descriptor.

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Somehow skipped over this, but here goes.

I already said that I'll grant you that it does happen, but how often does it happen? In this thread, you and one other person claimed to have seen it often enough to take note of it, I and a few others have claimed to have barely ever seen it happen. Which claim has more weight? We're not here to talk imaginary hypothetical statistics, if there's no proof that people are being bullied in high enough numbers to be a concern, then it shouldn't be taken into account when designing jobs. Seeing as you agree with another poster that we should have a simple job so people don't get bullied for not using their full kit, burden of proof is on you that people are getting bullied enough for this to be a major consideration.

Just because something can happen rarely, doesn't mean it should be a major consideration in design. Besides, bullying is already covered under ToS, just report them, don't have to design an entire job around someone afraid of being called out for anything.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Somehow skipped over this, but here goes.

I already said that I'll grant you that it does happen, but how often does it happen? In this thread, you and one other person claimed to have seen it often enough to take note of it, I and a few others have claimed to have barely ever seen it happen. Which claim has more weight? We're not here to talk imaginary hypothetical statistics, if there's no proof that people are being bullied in high enough numbers to be a concern, then it shouldn't be taken into account when designing jobs. Seeing as you agree with another poster that we should have a simple job so people don't get bullied for not using their full kit, burden of proof is on you that people are getting bullied enough for this to be a major consideration.

Just because something can happen rarely, doesn't mean it should be a major consideration in design. Besides, bullying is already covered under ToS, just report them, don't have to design an entire job around someone afraid of being called out for anything.

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Where are people finding these supposed bullies in large numbers

I swapped to PC yesterday from console and tried out MKB in lapis manulis, I somehow messed up my keybinds so badly I had physis 2 on the left arrow key rather than camera pan, I had to stop for like 5 minutes to reset them and I basically just got “UWU you are trying your best”, I mean I was embarrassed for my own performance but if some like like that isn’t evoking anyone’s ire what are these people doing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Where are people finding these supposed bullies in large numbers

I swapped to PC yesterday from console and tried out MKB in lapis manulis, I somehow messed up my keybinds so badly I had physis 2 on the left arrow key rather than camera pan, I had to stop for like 5 minutes to reset them and I basically just got “UWU you are trying your best”, I mean I was embarrassed for my own performance but if some like like that isn’t evoking anyone’s ire what are these people doing

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There are 2 main arguments against damage spells that baffle me.

First is the argument that healers will get called out more if the damage kit is expanded upon because it'll slow down the dungeon if they don't use the full kit and people will complain. People don't even speak in dungeons right now, why would people go out of their way to complain about something they'd only know about if they were watching the healer's castbar like a hawk?

Second is the argument that adding damage spells will cause healers to not heal during burst windows. Like, a bad tank is one that doesn't mitigate, right? So a bad healer is one that doesn't heal when needed. So why can't we just call the healers who refuse to heal during their burst a bad healer and move on?

One argument I can at least understand is that if someone is unable to utilise their full kit effectively, they'd feel bad. But I'd argue that they should just get better at the game and feel good about finally mastering their job of choice.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Some people are good at healing and managing people's health bars but really not good at doing DPS rotations. So more healing requirements wouldn't phase them while more damage buttons/a damage rotation more complex than the present would.
The "low end of the skill floor" has no trouble pressing Medica over and over again.

Adding an even more annoying version of a thing I already dislike; an upkeep DoT that is boring and has no useful or interesting interaction and would have to completely change the kit to be given one.
It's not good enough because people have a damned love affair with DoTs for some reason; the single kind of damage spell I hate most in all of gaming.

But that the change would require a severe reduction in its APM - to WHM levels

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Here we go again

- Also, the 'low end of the skill floor' absolutely has trouble pressing Medica over and over again. Because they press Medica 2 over and over again, overwriting the HOT and using the 'less up-front healing potency' move compared to Medica 1 or Cure 3. Besides that, you know Medica's got an egregious MP cost, right? MP management would come back in full force and I'd expect at least one wipe because of 'oops I ran out of MP'. Of course, I guess the SE brand solution to that is to absolutely drown everyone in Piety on gear

- You're basically no-selling any and all suggestions based entirely on your opinion on certain design elements as if you speak for the whole playerbase. Not everyone is bad with DOTs. I am, but I still put more DOTs on SCH, and I'd still try SCH. How would I ever improve at DOT management if I never try a job that has any? As an aside, I wasn't actually that bad at DOT management in SB, so it could be argued that, for me at least, the 'hands off press once and ignore for 30s' nature of the one DOT we have left, has caused that 'muscle' to atrophy and wither because of how little use it sees

- So it's not actually anything to do with the complexity of the damage rotation, but the kit as a whole? Which means that, I can actually add more to the damage rotation with healer design pitches, I just have to make sure to counterbalance it by making other parts of the kit more simple? EG, WHM can have more damage buttons (just a little), but in return it's healing has to be super simple, potentially even more simple than it currently is? For example, merging Medica 1 into Medica 2, so the average Med2 spammer automatically receives the benefit of Med1's extra potency, or making Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2 (keeping Cure1's MP cost), so that people don't feel the need to use a lower potency heal to trigger the Freecure trait (instead, spamming Cure2 could give the proc if they really want to keep the damn thing)

Let's run a hypothetical. Imagine a dungeon boss. it autoattacks the tank and it does raidwides. As a demonstration of this 'increased healing required', in your opinion, how often should those raidwides occur, and how much damage should they do? Exact numbers please, no feelycraft 'often enough to require GCD healing', I want an exact number of seconds and damage value (can be rounded to the nearest thousand, eg 10k)

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I would. Please do go and play AST in Deep Dungeon content solo.

That has been my experience for a good year and so playing this game.

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I feel like AST needs more than it has, but also not because it's kit is meant to be based around buffing allies, hence I'd make Minor Arcana a bigger part of the kit. Like, if SE added some kind of second DOT that lasted less than 30s (say 15) I'd be like 'ok, it doesn't exactly solve AST's issues but thanks I guess', so I'd rather they looked at making the cards more a focus of the kit (and by doing so, redistributing the APM out of the burst window and spreading it across the full 2min loop). Not sure if every AST agrees with that take (probably not) but it's the take I'm going with

edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

First is the argument that healers will get called out more if the damage kit is expanded upon because it'll slow down the dungeon if they don't use the full kit and people will complain. People don't even speak in dungeons right now, why would people go out of their way to complain about something they'd only know about if they were watching the healer's castbar like a hawk?

Second is the argument that adding damage spells will cause healers to not heal during burst windows. Like, a bad tank is one that doesn't mitigate, right? So a bad healer is one that doesn't heal when needed. So why can't we just call the healers who refuse to heal during their burst a bad healer and move on?

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1: Healers don't get called out for 'doing their rotation wrong' or whatever, they get called out when they don't do their damage at all. Nobody would care if you pressed Glare instead of Banish. A few vocal nuisances who feel like piping up about to make a mountain out of a molehill, will make statement if you just stop pressing Glare entirely, in favour of standing still and casting nothing in it's place. You could probably do a dungeon boss with just pressing Dia and its very unlikely anyone will make mention of it, they've got their own gameplay to worry about

2: There's a raidwide+bleed cast in P10S that lines up exactly with a burst window, I can't remember if it's the 4min or 6min (if it's the 6min that's even funnier because that'd be most people's 2nd pot window). Anyone who sees that damage coming in and goes 'I will not be pressing Rapture because this is the burst window' probably has already done the maths on whether they need to in the first place (ie they're good enough at the game to have that gamesense). Anyone who is not up to that skill level is going to just play it safe and use the heal. I play it safe and use the Raptures, sometimes two of them. I don't see how 'casual player' is going to suddenly get parsebrain because they have one or two extra buttons that, when used optimally, gain them potentially tiny amounts of potency. It's not like we see casual players causing wipes left and right because 'oops use all my Flows on Energy Drain so no Indom teehee' is it

As a personal anecdote, nobody gave me flak when I went AST for my weekly P12S reclear and absolutely beefed it on almost everything. Cards played basically on CD instead of pooled for 2min, probably drifted Divination by several GCDs over the duration of the fight, used several GCD heals that were probably not needed if I had managed my OGCDs better. Apologized after we cleared for being so out of practice, zero 'you were bad' and several 'np we cleared its all good'. Doesn't count though cos it's 'anecdotal evidence' /s

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

There's a raidwide+bleed cast in P10S that lines up exactly with a burst window, I can't remember if it's the 4min or 6min (if it's the 6min that's even funnier because that'd be most people's 2nd pot window).

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It's 4 minutes in. Also, it was a lot funnier in P6S, every 2 minutes was a Hemitheos Dark IV and a Chelic Synergy, so tanks and healers have to weave their mitigations and heals within burst every single time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It's 4 minutes in. Also, it was a lot funnier in P6S, every 2 minutes was a Hemitheos Dark IV and a Chelic Synergy, so tanks and healers have to weave their mitigations and heals within burst every single time.

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...and those were the most alive 2min intervals I ever had as a Dark Knight. Restructuring in what order I press my mitigations and my damage buttons to get the most value out of my mitigation while avoiding drift were the absolute best.

I'd like MORE of that. Hell don't limit my active damage presses to 2min windows, make it more frequent and irregular (non 30/60/120s) and absolutely BULLY me by having to weave mitigation along with it.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Here we go again

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Everytime you miss a damage GCD, a kitten cries. I hope you feel bad =(

Man, if pressing Medica over and over again is the 'low end of skill floor', then what do you call that SGE who's having trouble to spam Diagnosis?

Guess we’re going lower than ever as time goes by lol.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Let healers use their whole HEALER toolkit ! LET US USE OUR HEALS!!
I dont want to press x more meaningless/worthless dps buttons..

Downtime wouldnt exist if SE
actually could make fights depended on healing:

- More dmg during fights ( dot dmg/dispel-mech)
- More random unavoidable dmg..
- Remove self-heal/ress from other roles..

Instead of putting all that energy into asking for x more dps button.
How about fighting to get actually healer gameplay into picture instead!
People who enjoy healing.. do so because they enjoy the healing aspect of it..
not the **** 3 dps buttons we have!..

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There will always be downtime. The time spent in an encounter can be split into two major categories. The first category:

1. Time spent on healing that's required by the encounter.

The second category:

2a. Time spent on healing to recover from people making mistakes.
2b. Time spent on dealing damage.

It is certainly possible to change job design and encounter design so that more time is spent on (1), required healing. And that would certainly take away from time that could be spent on (2b), DPS. However, it would also take away from time that could be spent on (2a), recovering from mistakes.

In roulette-level, story-mode content, there absolutely must be time available to spend on (2a), recovering from mistakes. Expecting perfect play at that level is exactly what will wall off players. At the same time, there will be parties that make fewer mistakes, or have better gear, so mistakes are more easily recovered from, meaning that we'll be able to shift time from (2a) to (2b), dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Exactly where did I say they couldn't have more? Point it out for me, please. My point is only that AST never had many damage buttons, not that they can never have any more. I personally wouldn't mind if we returned wholesale to SB AST where they had most of their engagement come from the card system, I'd wager most AST mains from back then wouldn't mind the 2 DoTs and 1 filler either.

Honestly, for how much you guys jump on Ren for drawing his own conclusions and putting words in your mouths, you're also doing the same thing to me right now.

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"I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke" My response was a direct reaction to this as was Ask. No one is "putting words in your mouth" , you may want to go back and read your post as this came directly from you.

It’s literally the same conversation people have been having since the game began (don’t think I don’t remember people asking for more dps buttons during Stormblood lol), but as I said before:

These ‘healers can get extra dps buttons without new healers ever needing to use them’ claims are all well and good, but try convincing the devs of that lol. Personally I don’t like the idea of ‘new ability defined by how much you can ignore it’ lol but that’s a different point entirely.
Wall of text below

To preface, I don’t personally care if healers get more dps - I tried to maximise Cleric Stance during ARR and HW, I tried maximise SCH DoT uptime during Stormblood including Miasma II. Hell I remember popping and dropping Cleric Stance during T5 just to reapply DoTs. Just because I have a differing opinion on what healers ‘can/should’ be doesn’t mean I’m completely ignorant of what they really are now. I’d like more buff and debuff / support gcd options for downtime but I also don’t expect the devs to ever actually do that, and I’m not going to ragequit the role if they get nothing but new dps and/or buttons either.

I’m just so tired of these arguments all being predicated on either ‘super sylphies’ ruining the game with their absolute refusal to do anything else but heal, heal, heal or ‘rampant green dps’ who just attack, attack, attack. Again, we’ve been having this conversation since ARR and Cleric Stance. I’ve literally met 2 actual Sylphies in the entire time I was playing, but idk apparently there’s so many they’re literally warping the game design to their own preferences. I’ve met the same amount of non-healing, pure dps healers who never use an oGCD (i.e barely any lol) because they just despise healing so much. Nothing to do with the devs just making unbelievably poor decisions lol, it was all Sylphie (who wasn’t even bitching about dealing dps she was bitching about communing and drawing aether from nature instead of herself, girl had a death wish not a parser fetish). Or Reverse Sylphie (‘I just want to dps, not those other things, you can’t make me!’).

Idk it just seems like every healer thread invariable devolves into a mud slinging contest. ‘You’re a SYLPHIE who HATES DPS and doesn’t do [insert specific high-level content]’, ‘You’re a GREEN DPS who wants nothing more than to stomp new healers into bloody pulps and make their lives hell’. And I’ll be the first to admit I’m guilty of it too. There’s too much scapegoating (‘strawmanning’? To use everyone’s favourite forum buzzword lol).
Sylphies are not ruining the game by wanting to heal more. Green dps are not ruining the game by wanting to dps more.

I also feel like there an aspect of ‘this is just how things are’ that needs to (but won’t) be considered lol. Maybe it’s just a ‘playtime length’ thing but I genuinely do not believe any player can ever convince the devs to do something they don’t want to do, regardless of how logical or statistically correct it is. I mean look at all the ‘Kaiten’ threads lol, if the devs could be convinced to make changes surely they’d have done so by now after one of the many, many, many posts about it (not making a judgement on the amount because I don’t play Samurai so have no idea what Kaiten even did lol). But there comes a point where you kind of have to accept ‘this is simply how things are’, because things will never change no matter how hard you try.

I’ve been there with Bard lol, criticising (whether it was called for or not is an entirely different story lol) pretty much everything they’ve ever done with it, since right back when they stopped letting them cast Cure, Protect and Stoneskin after the alpha (or maybe one of the betas). And look at it now - a hollow shell that really earned it place as one of the least played jobs in the game based on [observable website metrics] lol. That’s just what it is now, and I find it very unlikely it will change by next expansion. It’s simply how things are now that Bard is the ‘less support than dancer, less dps than MCH’ middle ground job…so I no longer main a Bard lol. It sucks and I low key have a burning hatred of the developers for all that they’ve done lol, but what use is there in screaming into the abyss and expecting it to call back, when it already gave its answer several years ago?

Addendum: there should be a rule against posting this much at one time. GM’s have mercy on me lol I didn’t realise how bad it was until the damage was already done lol

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

<snip>

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I genuinely don’t think you appreciate what you’re asking for.

I’d recommend looking up healer POVs of O8S part 2 aka God Kefka. To this day that fight is still the biggest *healing* check we’ve ever had. AoEs were non stop and generally hit hard enough to kill without a mitigation plan and to compound things, the fight repeatedly had 1 HP > Hard Hitting AoE + Certain death debuff if people weren’t topped to full before the mechanic resolved. And these weren’t huge long 10-30 second casts. Heartless Arch Angel was pretty damn quick.

At the risk of sounding utterly condescending. I don’t think you could cope with it. I honestly don’t think you’d have any hope whatever tbh. I don’t mean that as an attack, It’s just how challenging the fight was for healers.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...iOIZwZUB3j/pub

And do you want to know the kicker? If it was released again as a new fight now, it still wouldn’t be enough to keep us healing the whole time. It wasn’t even enough back then by virtue that we needed the celestriad phases to get MP and cooldowns back for the following phases. Downtime is inevitable and unavoidable.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

"I doubt many would complain about having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke" My response was a direct reaction to this as was Ask. No one is "putting words in your mouth" , you may want to go back and read your post as this came directly from you.

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And which part of that statement shows that I said they can't have any more damage actions? Please tell me how many hoops you had to jump through to get to the conclusion that I'm pushing for you and everyone else to accept the 1 DoT 1 nuke gameplay. You are attributing hidden reasonings and meanings to my words when I have already made clear, twice, exactly what I'm saying. That is the very definition of putting words in my mouth.

Let me reiterate for you, very clearly, what I'm saying, again. Because you clearly aren't reading what I'm saying. AST did not have a multitude of damage actions back in SB, many AST mains just want the old card system back, I doubt many would mind having only 1 DoT and 1 nuke if they get full engagement from the card system and surrounding systems again. Note that I said many, not most, not all, many. Read this time, thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Connor

Idk it just seems like every healer thread invariable devolves into a mud slinging contest. ‘You’re a SYLPHIE who HATES DPS and doesn’t do [insert specific high-level content]’, ‘You’re a GREEN DPS who wants nothing more than to stomp new healers into bloody pulps and make their lives hell’. And I’ll be the first to admit I’m guilty of it too. There’s too much scapegoating (‘strawmanning’? To use everyone’s favourite forum buzzword lol).
Sylphies are not ruining the game by wanting to heal more. Green dps are not ruining the game by wanting to dps more.

Addendum: there should be a rule against posting this much at one time. GM’s have mercy on me lol I didn’t realise how bad it was until the damage was already done lol

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There is a balance to be struck, I think, and I do agree, having more healing required would feel more thematic to the role. But we've been given so many 'more healing' solutions (without enough of the 'problem' to require so many solutions) that the balance is already pre-skewed, and the 'more damage buttons' suggestion could be seen as trying to rebalance things, not shift it all the way to the opposite side. If we look at SB, once they had gotten rid of the clunky stuff like old Cleric Stance, we had some damage buttons, some healing buttons. We didn't have an obscene flood of different OGCDs to use. If we go back to HW, we had even less OGCD healing. AST, IIRC, had literally zero AOE OGCD healing options. It's not just a case of 'healing requirements haven't really increased', but also 'healing capability of players has absolutely skyrocketed over time'. I'd like to think that the 'ideal solution' would be like, more damage buttons, more healing required, but having the two halves of the kit (damage and healing) fit together more smoothly than what we have now. Lilies are a good example of what I'd like things to be like, you have to heal at some point, then later on you cash in a big refund of all the damage you lost in a satisfying blast that hits for like 80k. So I think like, why not the opposite, where you dealing damage gives you access to a big heal tool, and then that big heal also has a way to make itself damage neutral, so you flow between damage/healing/damage etc more seamlessly than the sudden 'handbrake applied' feeling of dropping everything to hardcast a Medica 2.

Also, you can put text in the tags [H*B] and [/H*B] (without the *s) and it'll make a 'click to show' box like if you want to hide a spoiler or whatever

like this

you can nest them inside one another too!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And do you want to know the kicker? If it was released again as a new fight now, it still wouldn’t be enough to keep us healing the whole time.

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I do wonder how much of that fact is down to how many extra healing tools we have in the kit now. Like, Heartless took some Cure3 pumping to get through, but with Lilybell we could place and instantly detonate that for 1000p which is like, half the healthbar. Pneuma's 900 with Zoe. Those two alone would solve like 90% of the check and they're both zero damage lost. Heck, Plenary > Rapture's 600, even the fact that the lily system was dog doo bad back then is a factor compared to the kit we know now

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

This is one of the main cruxes of the matter, I think. They said 'we didn't really know what to do with SCH' going into EW, and it got Expedience as a result. Now, Expedience is cool, but at the end of the day, it's main use is as a 10%, 20s mit that sticks as a buff to allies. This makes it a tool that fills a gap in SCH's kit, of 'mitigation that doesn't require standing in a specific location to partake' (like Soil demands of the team). But, by locking off 'more damage buttons' as a design choice, the devs paint themselves into a corner about what can be added. More healing tools will be superfluous and unrequired by 98% of the content in the game. More 'utilities' get suggested and shot down because they're either useful to the point of being pseudo-mandatory or 'pointless after prog' tools. So all SE can really add is just... more mitigation tools, and then make the 'hard content' encounters demand... more mitigation. So we end up in this spiral where raidwides in week 1 Savage are sometimes asking for, across the whole team, 30% plus shields to live through, because everyone and their mother can now provide mitigation of some kind.

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I think this specifically is something that is felt across the whole game and not just Healers. but every role in general. Compared to mitigation before where it was mostly just a job for the healers and a couple of tank stuff, now it feels like every dps needs to contribute there mitigation in order to survive mechanics. Like Horrowing Hell from P10s is a good example, since you are effectively required to have mitigation from everyone in order to survive the mechanic. And SE has to do this, since they give everyone mitigation they either have to tune fights where its required so have to plan out the usage of it, or you don't plan around it and raid damage can just be reduced dramatically. I do think it's mostly tied to a healer issue like you said, but again it does feel like an issue that is apart of every job.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

snip

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Thanks lol, I’ve tried to clean up the post a little (at least as much as I can on mobile lol).

I do get what you mean; we have so many ultra powered healing abilities that there’s really no where to go other than down the ‘offensive / non-healing’ route. Not only that, but readjusting things so we did have to use all those healing abilities would be just as difficult / impossible due to all the rebalancing and adjustments that were needed, the pressure it’d put on new healer, etc.

I think you’re right as well about having damage feed into healing and vice-versa. I think it’d be better for both sides of the argument if we didn’t have this clear divide between ‘attack’ and ‘healing’ toolkits. If they both interacted and synergised in interesting ways it’d go far in making both healing and attacking more enjoyable, or at least I think it would lol. Especially for jobs like White Mage and Sage who already (well, in theory lol) have interaction between damage and healing. I also like the idea of healing being able to indirectly affect dps like the PvP version of Adloquium (damage buff). It gives ways for healers to still utilise their healing toolkits but in ways that can affect overall party dps, so there’s always the feeling of positive contribution. Plus it would make it easier to avoid running into an ‘energy drain’ situation where you have to choose between healing or damage, which I’m not a fan of personally - because, why not both lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Connor

<snip>

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Aye it's wild how polarising this whole discussion is. There's too much framing of everything as a purely black or white solution when the reality is that we need a bit of everything to truly get healing out of the hole SE have spent the last bunch of years digging.

Our kits need to be pruned, streamlined and rethought
We need more to heal
We need more to do for those inevitable periods when there isn't the heal

Throwing more huge 2 minute heal bomb capstones at us isn't the answer
Throwing huge bleed bombs on everything isn't the answer
Throwing full bore dps rotations isn't the answer

We need a hearty sprinkling from all 3 departments++

And for that to happen, IMO Yoshida/SE's financing department needs to get their wallets out and start hiring.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

snip

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BOTH sides need to change. Which one comes first I don't care. They can increase the healing parts of the game; its not going to stop me complaining that outside of group content DPS on healers is abysmal, uninspired and still needs to change. Especially because you and I both know they aren't going to increase the requirements enough so that we don't have any down time. Its LITERALLY not possible. Even with a smaller healing kit.



Misery is a semi-Aoe likely so that it can be used for both single target AND AOE target use. Which I don't really care for either (along with other semi-aoes because if you're going to make it do 50% less damage to everyone other than the primary target wtf is the point of it?) but until they make an AOE version (which why not SE?) I'm not going to die on that hill. I equate it more to a single target ability more than anything.


I did give it consideration. I don't agree with your reasonings and told you why. Historically WHM used more holy or Light themes in previous games. That's fine. In this game however they used Aero and Stone. Stoneskin. More elemental themed abilities. While going into Shb changed WHM to be more in line with previous iterations of itself it destroyed what it was in this game. This is what I have issue with. But I'll stick with just Holy being apart of the rotation and not get back into that debate.

Holy does not need to be more prevalent in WHM's kit. It can stay as it is as a reference to its previous incarnations. We now have Glare and Dia to support it and I'd argue the lily system as well. Giving back Stone/Aero and/or a new water damaging or support ability back to WHM both fixes the problem that mains had with the switch to Dia and Glare as well as gives WHM more to maintain. And I would prefer it over putting Holy into the rotation.

Because Holy does not equal Misery or even RDM's post melee spells. Holy being introduce into the rotation would be the same as doing Malefic into Gravity. Or using Jolt and then instead of Veraero III you use Veraero II, on a single target. The damage would be fixed (because it wouldn't be the same as if you just randomly hit it), but its just as tone deaf. I'd rather not have it.